this is not an invitation to RAPE ME

[nashville_brook]

This is one ad in a series produced for the L.A. Commission Against Assault on Women. Lets take a moment to think about what this ad is saying, and honestly examine our attitudes regarding the Duke rape controversy.

This ad appeared in a 1997 issue of Lürzer's ARCHIVE -- a professional journal for advertising. I've used ARCHIVE as a creative tool for years, and every time I have flipped through this issue, I stop at this ad and think, "one day we will face this in the media and it's not going to be pretty."

That day has come.

There's five other concepts in the series, btw -- a homeless theme (this is not an invitation to rape me), a prostitute (this is not an invitation to rape me), a girl in a bathing suit (this is not an invitation to rape me), a phone number on a napkin (this is not an invitation to rape me), and a couple dancing. You get the picture. Don't make me scan them.

Since the indictments came down yesterday I've been pretty disappointed in the reaction and research skills of my DU colleagues. If screen names are any indication, the problem knows no gender bounds. We can't blame this on the boys. This is a very ambiguous controversy -- and one that pulls on every kind of heart string.

This issue is clouded by issues of race. Black accuser. White accused. Shades of Tawana Brawley. Don't laugh -- I've seen it said right here on DU. The controversy is clouded by our fascination with court cases. "Calling Judge Judy," might be clever forum repartee, but it minimizes the severity of the crime. Does Judge Judy try gang rape cases? I didn't think so. Some people are angry that Duke is "being dragged through the mud," and that "the whole lacrosse team has been convicted without a trial." This claim comes from the fact that the team has been reprimanded -- as if they were reprimanded for the rape. They were reprimanded for serial violations of code.

Without examining the merits of the case, we can examine the attitudes that polarizing progressives and democrats on the issue of violence against women.

Does it make a difference to you that the accuser is an exotic dancer?
Does it make a difference to you that she is black and the accused are white? How so?
Does it make a difference to you that she returned to finish the gig? Why might she have done that?
Do you think she has a motivation for reporting a crime? Or for not-reporting a crime?
Does it matter that she is economically less advantaged than the accused? Is she a gold-digger?
What about the DNA? Can there be a rape without a positive, one-to-one DNA match?
What about the power structure in Raleigh/Durham? How do the cards stack? Against accuser. Or accused?

How you answer these questions will partially unpack some of your beliefs about rape. It won't reveal all your beliefs, but it will start to crack the code. And remember... where there's absolute belief, there's little room for thought.

We don't have to "try this case" in the media -- but the media is EXACTLY where we look for a REFLECTION of ourselves. What are you seeing in the mirror?

[stepnw1f]

1. Excellent Post! (nt)

[nashville_brook]

4. thanks -- this is one of those issues we can't let slide

it's about how WE THINK regardless of how the case shakes out.

[stepnw1f]

282. My Mother Was Raped

and so was my sister. Anyone saying either encouraged it, would get a fist through their face. I mean it!

[nashville_brook]

320. wow -- i'm really glad you spoke up

we at least 'get to' discuss the issue now. in our mother's time (and our grandmother's time before that), this stuff was 'swept under the rug.' the women/victims were expected to bear the burden silently. the least we can do is examine this. we don't have to FIX things perfectly -- but we need to learn.

[stepnw1f]

335. I'm with You

and them.

[nashville_brook]

2. ... votes and no comments?

it's been a long time since i posted anything in GD.

[helderheid]

152. LOL - got a little busier since this post. :)

[nashville_brook]

198. no kidding! :)

[Warpy]

3. Well, since I've looked at the DA's pursuit of the case

in spite of negative DNA findings as suspicious for a lot of internal injuries in the victim consistent with vaginal and anal rape, I look in the mirror and see a media skeptic.

The only TV news I watch these days is the weather. It has a chance of being right, unlike the rest of it.

[nashville_brook]

6. we know from abu ghraib, that rape isn't about the sex

rape is often performed with brooms, flashlights and other non-DNA laden objects.

[porphyrian]

189. Sometimes rape is about the sex.

I don't think it's always one or the other. It's an oversimplification to claim that rape is an act of violence rather than sex. It's likely some measure of both, depending on the particular mental disorder of the rapist. In any case, rape is always wrong.

[roseBudd]

211. Exactly some rapists have a fetishized yen for nonconsensual sex

On usenet newsgroups specializing in sex stories the acronym was NC for nonconsensual.

[bettyellen]

216. that's allowing the rapist to define the terms. and that's unacceptable.

it's not about what the rapist likes or feels like calling it.
calling it sex is very hostile to the victim.

[roseBudd]

256. The acronyms on alt.sex.stories were to alert the reader of the "themes"

in the stories. I say that noncensual AKA rape is a flavor that some rapists get off on. Many are married with children. If we want to prevent rape we should start trying to learn how fetishs develop. Learning to discourage the development of harmful fetishs would be preferable to catching and incarcerating rapists after the facts. It is about violence, but it is also about a preferenve for violent, degrading sex.

[bettyellen]

260. i understand that pont, but ....please stop calling it sex.

if you are the one experiencing vilolence and degredation, you might not want people telling you that it was "sex".
sex is a wonderful thinng. rape is not- it doesn't ever deserve to be called "sex" even if the rapist thinks it is.

[porphyrian]

272. While I understand your point, we can't honestly talk about rape...

...if we're limited by necessary terminology. People lose their spouses on Thanksgiving, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't say the word, or that Thanksgiving is somehow a bad thing because of it.

Call it sex, coitus, fucking, whatever, sometimes that's why people rape. It isn't just an act of violence. That's simply not true, and lying about it is doing nothing to stop rape.

[LostinVA]

281. Rape is absolutely not sex, coitus, fucking, whatever

It is only an act of violence and control. No one here is lying about it, and it is against DU rules to call someone a liar.

You sincerely do need to educate yourself on this subject. And no, I am NOT the one who needs to be educated. The experts agree with me. Or rather, I agree with the experts. NOt someone calling rape "sex."

[Name removed]

290. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[miss_american_pie]

299. Links please

as to which "experts" claim rape is about sex.

[porphyrian]

I don't have web links to my conversations with psychiatrists and...

psychologists about rape, but if they ever publish anything on the subject, I'll be sure to present it to you for you to discount out of hand.

[jukes]

328. can you NAME 1 of these experts?

do you have these conversations often?

[porphyrian]

333. I wouldn't feel right without talking to them about it first.

And, no, I wouldn't say often. It was the topic of conversation for a few months a couple of years ago. However, these people are professionals, and I trust their judgement. I don't expect anyone here to trust my claims the same way, but I think the validity of my argument is apparent.

[jukes]

334. OH!

i see! was it Dr. Strawman, perhaps?

[porphyrian]

342. Believe whatever you want.

I don't seek or need your validation.

[spooky3]

346. Maybe not, but by posting here, aren't you trying to persuade

others that your view is correct? Without evidence (particularly linked evidence, such as refereed articles), you won't persuade reasonable people.

[porphyrian]

350. That isn't true at all.

Despite what many of you link-requisite posters might believe, many people can follow a logical argument and agree with it without needing another parrotting it in written form. I don't require anything of any of you. Believe whatever you want, I mean that. My intent is to honestly discuss rape without telling others what they can or cannot say.

[bettyellen]

378. accept you've made no arguement other than to say "it's honest" that

it's about sex.
and you want people to beleive this is the new research findings from your doctor friends.
well you can call that logic, but you also call rape sex and that ain't so either.

[porphyrian]

382. I don't want anything from you or anyone else.

I'm just calling it like I see it, and you're free to think and say whatever you want. We disagree. Fine.

[LostinVA]

425. OMG -- I am so using "Dr. Strawman"

[nashville_brook]

471. we need a strawman smilie

[LostinVA]

475. Yes! A scarcrow with a smiley head!

[porphyrian]

493. I don't require your belief.

However, keep saying things that aren't true, and I'll keep saying the truth.

[nashville_brook]

302. yep

i think you have quite a valid point. there's a grey area in terms of a cultural definition of rape. i would go further to say, that the liberalness of the definition depends greatly on the culture's progressivity with regard to gender equality. ergo, a culture where women have fewer human rights, you will find more generosity toward men who rape.

also, militarized cultures might see a higher incidence of tolerance toward sexual violence.

but what kind of culture are WE? if you could shake the giant Etch-A-Sketch, how would you like to see OUR culture re-draw these lines? are we ready to elminate some of the grey area? or are we happy where we are?

[porphyrian]

319. Unlike consentual sex, rape is not mutual, it's victimization.

I think people are getting hung up on the term "sex" itself, because in their definition of it, it's always consentual. This, however, is distracting from the message I'm trying to convey, which is that victimization is wrong.

What kind of culture are we? We're a consumer culture with all the worst traits of capitalism that punishes those who exhibit its best traits. Instead of healthy competition, our culture promotes the idea of doing unto others before they do unto you. Instead of honesty, our culture rewards those who don't get caught in their deception. Instead of justice and equality, our culture promotes elitism and entitlement. Perhaps worst of all, instead of personal responsibility, our culture teaches us to externalize responsibility, whether for a good act (God gave me this baby, rather than it is a result of my having sex) or bad (it's woman's fault I raped her rather than mine for committing rape).

I would absolutely like to see this change for the better in my lifetime. How? Well, this is a start.

[nashville_brook]

329. i think most folks *do* make the distinction between consensual sex and

rape. is that a 'hang up?" hmmm.

victimization is wrong. yes.

by pointing toward capitalist culture, are you saying we are victims of an oppressive and pervasive economic cultural system? i have to agree with you there. we are all soaking in this our capitalism.

but with regard to -- 'God gave me this baby'-type "good irresponsibility" vs. i-raped her-but-she-was-dressed-like-a-tart 'bad irresponsibility" -- is sex the only area where 'personal responsibility' operates like this? are there other areas where we shirk?

[porphyrian]

341. Not a hang up, a defensive response to being attacked...

...for using the word "sex" in discussing rape.

Re: responsibility: I listed only one example I was relating to rape, not a comprehensive list. There has been a trend in America that I noticed during the reign of reagan towards blaming victims (as in people with AIDS, the homeless and "welfare mothers"), rampant consumerism ("shop 'til you drop," the mall becoming our cultural center) and the externalization of responsibility for nearly everything. This externalization may be a result of the litigiousness which grew in the 80s, or it might come from an aging generation of hippies trying to adapt to a materialist society. Whatever its origins, the trend has matured to ugly adulthood today.

[roguevalley]

416. call me old, but if a man only wanted sex, he can pay for it everywhere

for very little. since the victim of rapists are usually degraded, often hurt and ABSOLUTELY in disagreement to participate, it would seem WRONG to say sex was a motivation with a rapist. they can get sex anywhere. the violence, utter contemptuous control, etc, they can get from rage rape. the bastards.

[NashVegas]

476. We All Pay For It

We all make compromises of some sort for (voluntary) sex. The rapist refuses to make the necessary compromise.

[porphyrian]

494. I never said the motivation was sex alone.

In fact, I've repeatedly said that it's various degrees of sex and violence. My original assertion was, and continues to be, that it is dishonest to claim that rape has no sexual element, and this denial has done nothing to prevent rape, help victims of rape, or to further the conversation about rape.

[Liberal Dose]

514. If I smash your head in with a baseball bat, am I playing baseball? n/t

[porphyrian]

530. If you do so while playing baseball, yes.

Why is this such a difficult concept for so many to understand?

[KitchenWitch]

303. Rape is USING sex as an ACT of violence

to call it Sex is patently wrong and overwhelmingly harmful to those that have been raped.

I think someone here needs a sensitivity injection.

[bettyellen]

308. my point is to call it an act of sex is BS, rapists migh want to believe

that is should be called (nonconsensual or whatever) sex. i'm sure that would suit them.
it's like a robber saying they borrowed (by gun point). in otherwords, it's BS.

you probably never notice how often people referr to rape as a sex act. but they do, and it's a disturbing blurring of the lines.

[KitchenWitch]

316. I do not disagree with you bettyellen!

Calling it an act of sex is beyond the pale.

[porphyrian]

325. You are hindering honest discussion on this topic with this belief.

I'm sorry for whatever happened to you that makes this such an issue, but we can't honestly address rape if we can't honestly talk about it.

[Name removed]

420. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

495. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[porphyrian]

324. I'm sure you have your reasons, but your assessment is unfair.

I am not a rapist. All rape is always wrong. My use of the word "sex" in talking about rape does not "blur the lines." It's necessary to honestly discuss rape. I'm sorry for whatever personal experience you've had that makes the use of this word in this context so difficult for you.

[bettyellen]

389. your assessment is a load of horseshit!

and i see you've assessed every woman who disagrees with you the same way.
and you pretend to be seeking an honest discussion. more BS.

[porphyrian]

392. Your opinion is noted, and I still disagree with you. - n/t

[LostinVA]

426. Just, try to lock down the discussion

By telling someone they are hindering, wrong, a liars, not honest, have a hang up, etc. When every single legal, law enforcement, medical, and psych expert says rape is about ange, control, etc.... not sex. That's why women are very often raped with objects, not a penis. Because it IS NEVER ABOUT SEX. It isn't sex. This 2006 -- these attitudes astound me.

[porphyrian]

491. Your inability to understand what I'm saying astounds me. - n/t

[porphyrian]

321. "Rape is USING sex as an ACT of violence."

I don't disagree with that at all. However, I'm not calling rape "sex," I'm saying rape is just as likely motivated by sex as by violence. Restricting terminology necessary to the conversation does nothing to prevent rape, nor to help those victimized by rapists.

[AllieB]

322. Just curious-are you a man or a woman?

[porphyrian]

327. Are you really curious, or trying to prove your suspicions?

I'm a man. I've never raped anyone, I've never been accused of rape, I've never (to my recollection) been raped. Nearly half of my female friends have been raped, however, mostly by family.

[bloom]

330. The trouble with that idea

is that these guys presumably could have gotten all the sex they wanted.

Or the gang-rapists in the OC case - who had consensual sex with the woman one night and drugged and sexually assaulted her the next.

It seems pretty clear that it is about violence, power, and who knows what else. It may also be that these guys have really fucked up ideas about sex, and women.

This writer partly agrees with what you are saying, I think, he also says this:

"To account for sexual aggression, it is necessary to examine erotic interaction in its structural contexts and to show how erotic behavior interacts with gender assumptions to create and sustain, for some males, resentment and disdain for women. This is important because the evidence strongly suggests that men who hold negative views of women are more likely than other men to be sexually aggressive."

http://wwwcj.mnstate.edu/classes/CJ400/Monograph/Theory.html

[porphyrian]

343. Most people are particular about who they have sex with.

There's no reason to believe that this doesn't apply to rapists. That doesn't make them any less wrong for doing so.

[bloom]

367. That doesn't really

have anything to do with what I wrote. The rapists in question could presumably have sex with people they were "particular" about anyway.

See this for snips:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=957110&mesg_id=962988

[porphyrian]

372. "The trouble with that idea is that these guys presumably..."

"...could have gotten all the sex they wanted."

Yes, it does. I was addressing what you said, even if you've already forgotten it. My point was that saying that rapists can have sex with people other than those they rape does not mean they don't rape for sex. Sorry for the confusion.

[KitchenWitch]

423. It is NOT about sex, it is about POWER

And sexual assault is about the most powerful form of assault, barring murder, as the assault happens not only physically, but emotionally and spiritually as well. It is entirely wrong to tie it to a rapist's sex drive. It is a POWER drive.

[NashVegas]

444. Sex IS Power

It's easier to get a conviction, however, by calling rape an act of violence than it is to delve into the philosophy of sexual exchange and how rape is a violation of the unwritten laws of exchange.

[sendero]

309. I agree with you..

.... the "rape isn't about sex it's about power" idea is one of many that popped out of various psychogists asses in the 70s. It's nonsense and anyone giving it more than a few minutes of thought would agree.

If it wasn't about sex, why not just tie someone up or beat them. The idea that rape is NEVER just a case of someone getting too out of control of their own drives and crossing the line is ludicrous on its face.

Some people buy into all sorts of nonsense because it makes them feel better and it justifies their view of the world. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes Jonny raped Suzy because he got excited and lost his mind. Which doesn't excuse the action one single iota, which is what the "its about power" crowd are afraid of - that it will be some kind of accepted excuse. "I just got out of control!" "You just got 20 years!".

[LostinVA]

318. It is never sex.

[porphyrian]

331. I think most of the passionate arguments against this...

...are coming from people with bad personal experiences who have embraced this idea as a means of coping. It isn't helping to solve the problem of rape to perpetuate myths about it, though. I'm glad you can see this, too.

[jukes]

337. WHAT?

where do these people come from?

i assure you i've had no bad personal experiences that i'm coping w/, beyond a specific person that seems to have an agenda to subvert this discussion, makes wild, unsubstantiated claims, "quotes" experts that don't appear to exist, and is being disruptive. i'm about to "cope" w/ that situation by refusing to discuss this matter further w/ someone that obviously has some disturbing personal experiences that he/she is coping w/ by being disruptive.

GOODNIGHT!

[porphyrian]

347. You do not represent most of the people I'm talking about.

In fact, you're a relative newcomer to the fray. But thanks for calling my sincere attempts to discuss a difficult topic disruptive and inflating your own importance by assuming I must be talking about you.

[jukes]

377. oh, i've been around for awhile

and spotted an ilk or two in my time.

[porphyrian]

384. Kudos. - n/t

[LostinVA]

428. Jukes is the man... and is also a REAL man

You know, an adult, who also doesn't have appalling ideas about rape and women. He's also ex-law enforcement, has taught rape prevention classes, and knows this subject a bit more than you, eh?

He also rescues feral kitties.

He's earned his DU cred.

[jukes]

443. TX, LiV!

the creepy freeps are WAY to involved in this discussion, 1 wd think they are perversely intent on blaming "fast" women. these are the same types that stone women for "uppity" behavior in less civilized climes.

[Fleshdancer]

369. "popped out of various asses in the 70's?" This is your argument?

Rape as a tool of domination and power is evident in the animal kingdom and has been documented through out history in time of conquest. The concept of rape being about power wasn't something that "popped out" of anyone's asses. Has anyone ever wondered WHY a percentage of rape victims don't have DNA recovered? Because rapists don't always ejaculate...something that I can only assume excited and out of control monsters would want to do.

Would prison rape be considered an act of lust? How about child rape?

[porphyrian]

380. "Would prison rape be considered an act of lust? How about child rape?"

Sometimes, yes. Not always. Most likely, in varying degrees depending on the rapist and the particular incident of rape.

Orgasm isn't necessary for sex. While more women experience sex without orgasm than men, it occurs across the board for a variety of reasons. That isn't a good argument against rape having a sexual element.

[Fleshdancer]

398. Actually, the lack of orgasm is a good argument

If men rape because they're just so horny they just can't help themselves, then stopping prior to their sexual release (if rape is indeed about pleasure and not force and power)doesn't make sense at all. If they lack the will to not rape, then how do they have the will to stop before ejaculation?

However, the ejaculation aspect was just one of my points. 98% of male on male rape is committed by men who define themselves as heterosexual. Rape in time of conquest as a tool of humiliation and power is heavily documented and still happens today. Rape as a tool of power is evident in the animal kingdom.

Then there's the issue of post-castration rape and the fact that 75% of rapists are repeat offenders.

I've read most of the 300+ posts to this thread and while you are quick to tell people that rape is about sex, I fail to see where you point to your evidence. Could you please tell me where you have backed up your argument?

[porphyrian]

401. Your argument assumes normal functionality.

Why posit that rapists are "monsters" on one hand but have normal sexual functionality on the other?

I'm sorry, I don't have any links. I have only my own accumulated experience and conversation. I don't require you to agree with me, but I'm convinced that what I'm saying is correct. As long as you post differently, I will disagree.

[Sinti]

556. Ludicrous? As if raping someone were as easy as turning on a light

It's difficult to rape someone. You have to hold them down, usually while they try like a wild animal to get away, and maintain a position to penetrate. You have to actually manage to then penetrate a very dry, narrow and unforgiving territory. It's not easy, you will bend and have other troubles.

Most men who wanted sex only upon attempting to penetrate such territory would lose their erection. Rapists rarely use lube -- the only lubrication comes from him and/or from blood, and it ain't much.

Rapists get off on causing their victim pain. In that fashion it is about sex, but your Johnny and Suzie story is a boys will be boys -- don't be boys fairytale. Johnny, if he lost control and began raping Suzie, would know damn well what he was doing, and would have some considerable difficulty in doing so. Unless he was under the influence of some considerable drugs, he would also regain control over himself rather quickly. :rant:

[roseBudd]

314. Being in denial about the sexual aspectr means never learning how

this type of antisocial fetish develops. When a 75 year old man gets out of jail after serving a long sentence for rape and then reoffends, how can you deny the fetishistic aspect to a clear preference for nonconsensual sex. If there was not such a prefernce in that individual he would be just as likely to visit a prostitute for consensual sex.

I don't care why some men want to suck toes, or wear diapers and be spanked. No one is being harmed. But I would like to know how these fetishes develop. Understanding that could lead to encouraging nonharmful fetishes and discouraging harmful ones.

Harmful

Incest
pedophila
rape
child pornography
autoerotic aphyxiation

[porphyrian]

354. I'm also fascinated with fetishism, and seek to understand it.

I'm pretty vanilla in my tastes, so fetishes seem all the more exotic and foreign to me. One I really don't get is the poo stuff. What makes that fun?

[LostinVA]

477. It is not an "antisocial fetish" -- it's sociopathic behavior

And neither is incest or pedophilia. Again, sociopathic.

[jukes]

326. you're wasting time

and NOT presenting any evidence to support your claim.

did the NYPD officers that raped the african prisoner w/ flashlights seek sexual gratification?

just because rape often rfesults in ejaculation, that doesn't classify it as sex. if such were the case, "horny" women wd rape men.

[porphyrian]

351. Did bother to read my posts before disagreeing with them?

Didn't you go to bed?

[jukes]

385. that makes no sense

clarify your syntax, please.

[porphyrian]

387. Why? Are you planning on changing your mind at all? - n/t

[porphyrian]

395. Thanks, censorship does much to advance this discussion. - n/t

[roseBudd]

307. al fetishs are sexual to the person who has the fetish. A urine drinker, a

person who enjoys being humiliated in public in an embarrasing degrading way. These are not technically sex, but it is sexual behavior. The masochist who inserts a knitting needle into his urethra is practicing sexual behavior. If you get off on it, whatever it is, that is your kind of sex.

[bettyellen]

310. you are using the rapists' POV to choose terminology for the act?

as long as you are aware of it.

[porphyrian]

356. Rapists also drink water and talk about Christmas.

Does that mean people who drink water and talk about Christmas are using the rapists' point of view?

[bettyellen]

363. i'm saying a rape victim doesn't say thay "had sex" and i'd say they're

right to call it rape instead of sex.
the rapist has a vested interest in equating it with a good and positive thing. of course they do.

society has decided against the perp calling tthe shots here.
it is not accepted use to call rape "sex" or "having sex" in our society.

[porphyrian]

365. That's just not true, but I don't expect to change your mind. - n/t

[bloom]

371. These are considered "Rape-supportive beliefs"

"Many convicted rapists contend that they have done nothing wrong (e.g., Scully 1990, Sussman and Bordwell 1981). Scully and Marolla (1984, see also Scully, 1990), for example, interviewed 114 convicted rapists. Thirty two (28%) denied any wrong doing and another forty seven (41%) justified their rape by blaming the victim in one or more of five ways: (1) They portrayed the woman as a seductress; (2) They interpreted the woman's ``no'' as ``yes''; (3) They presented the victim as having actually enjoyed the experience; (4) They described the victim as not a nice girl; (5) They denied that their sexual acts were serious (e.g., pulling the knife was wrong, but the forced sex was not). Sussman and Bordwell (1981) report very similar findings based on taped interviews with convicted rapists from several states.

Many studies of ``rape myths,'' attitudes towards rape, and justifications of violence against women show that many ``normal'' males hold similar views. Depending upon the myth, acceptance among general sample males can range from 20% to 60% (see, for example: Burt 1978; Feild, 1978; Goodchilds and Zellman, 1979; Ageton, 1983; Mosher, 1971)."

http://wwwcj.mnstate.edu/classes/CJ400/Monograph/Theory.html


Just because the rapist believes it - or some other members of society believe it - does not make it "true".

[bettyellen]

381. if he actually ever discussed this with professionals, he'd know this.

it's kinda obvious he's making this crap up at this point.

[porphyrian]

388. You go ahead an believe whatever you need to believe. - n/t

[porphyrian]

386. Neither does quoting a student's website. - n/t

[bloom]

393. And if you think that you have some ultimate truth

that nobody else around here has - how do you defend it? Just because you say so? Is that it?

[porphyrian]

403. No, nothing so melodramatic.

I believe I'm right in what I'm saying, though, and that denying the existance of the sexual element of rape does nothing to prevent it or to help those who have been raped. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm megalomaniacal. You and I both could be wrong.

[nashville_brook]

406. see post #402 -- i think it might resonate

[LostinVA]

429. Interesting link -- thanks, Bloom

[nashville_brook]

488. "belief" is often incompatible with knowledge

someone can 'believe" and argue anything. put it into context -- like what you've done -- and it changes the contour of the debate.

[readmoreoften]

415. you really seem eager to support some types of rapists.

Or to minimize some rapists as merely guys who get "carried away."

Let me be blunt: if getting "carried away" involves forcing objects-- including your own dick-- inside women's genitalia, then you are enjoying the power of being able to use someone's body in this manner.

It's pretty goddamned simple.

[porphyrian]

490. What the fuck are you talking about?!

I AM NOT SUPPORTING OR MINIMIZING RAPE! FOR FUCK'S SAKES, CLEAR THE SHIT OUT OF YOUR CUMULATIVE HEADS AND READ WHAT I'VE SAID!

[Marie26]

576. Ludicrous. nt

[jukes]

323. rape

is not about sex. it's about dominance, control, & degradation.

this includes "date rape".

it may be a matter of degree, but those ARE the components, always.

any other conceptualization is naive.





it should also be noted that men are frequently raped; it more often goes unreported due to shame. in these cases, the rapist is NOT a homosexual; he's a rapist, seeking to degrade another being.

[porphyrian]

358. You're being dishonest.

You can't prevent rape or help the victims of rape by ignoring the facts.

[jukes]

390. you've been dishonest

quoting spurious sources.

[porphyrian]

391. That would be true, if there were no other merit to what I've said.

However, there is merit, so it isn't true.

[Name removed]

400. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[porphyrian]

404. I'm sorry you aren't more flexible in your beliefs. - n/t

[mongo]

502. Guess I'll jump in here

I don't disagree with the general rape is violence, control, domination, etc. crowd. Not one bit.

But there does have to be an underlying sexual component or motivation to rape. Trying to look at that piece of the puzzle is not apologizing for rape - it's not saying "rape is sex".

What about women with rape fantasies? Is there no sexual componant to that either?

[bettyellen]

516. somewhere in all this, mongo....

is the thought that using the word sex is an okay way to describe rape. that the words can be interchangable, and no one should have a problem with that.
there are also statements where rape is ALL or mostly about sex, and not power or an expression of violence.
there is a dismissal of years of research by psychologists that it's primarily about violence was something pulled out of their asses in the 70's.
there are posts equating rape with harmelss fetishes.
there are posts claiming rape is "an exchange" , that attempted genocide via mass rapes in wartime is "melding" populations.

in short, from just 2 or 3 posters, there's been a lot of ignorant, infalammatory, and completely made up stuff coupled with insinuating and dismissive posts towards anyone who disagrees with this more rapist friendly world view they are espousing.

btw, who knew tere were so many different ways to "blame the victim"? holy crap, it's scary, ain't it?

[mongo]

518. I'm certainly not blaming the victim

Or saying that rape=sex. It is a crime of dominance, humiliation and violence/rage.

I'm not trying to "normalize" rape either.

But I do see a sexual componant or motivation at play. A fucked-up warped sense of sexuality to be sure, but still a factor in the attacker's psyche, certainly NOT the victim's) that should be addressed.

And lastly, I do have to say that anyone making this supposition has been attacked and their words twisted into something they did not say.

No one here "equated rape with harmelss fetishes" But there is a fetish componant to rape. In our society (outside of the crime of rape itself), it is mostly inherent in women who have rape fantasies .

Or said that rape is "not power or an expression of violence."

Or claimed that rape is "an exchange", except to say that ALL sex is an exchange of power (which it is).

This isn't being "rapist friendly". It's looking at the human psyche -- and looking at the psyche of the most fucked-up (dare I say) MEN in our society.

[bettyellen]

521. maybe the posts are deleted. but yeah it was posted...

that rape may be the result of getting "too excited" sexually and that's all, no violence or power involved. i absolutely did see that here.
ok, perhaps they casually compared rape with fetishes, not equated..... my bad.
but i read all those other statements here, sad as it is to see. and i see them as rapist friendly.
all sex is an exchange of power-both people participate- but raping is not an exchange, it is a taking. which i believe is a big part of we don't like to use the words sex and rape interchangably. the victim ain't giving, she ain't getting either. don;t insult her by calling her attack "having sex"
to say rape is an exchange is like saying murder is an exchange- yeah, the victim "gets" dead.


(i am not saying you said any of these things, mongo, i belive you to be a lot more enlightened than that., i was giving you a recap ...)

[mongo]

525. my bad too...

all sex is an exchange of power-both people participate- but raping is not an exchange, it is a taking. which i believe is a big part of we don't like to use the words sex and rape interchangably. the victim ain't giving, she ain't getting either. don;t insult her by calling her attack "having sex"

I agree -- it is taking, not an "exchange" in the real meaning of the word. Bad use of the phrase, I guess. But speaking of sex (in general) as power exchange, it becomes the far end of the spectrum. Non-consentual, so the word exchange doesn't fit, but still (a fucked-up) part of the spectrum.

that rape may be the result of getting "too excited" sexually and that's all, no violence or power involved. i absolutely did see that here.

And that statement is certainly sounds like a "rape apologist" to me.

[bettyellen]

528. tks mongo. i know it's hard to believe some of this stuff....

and the icing on the cake is how some people can't back down and acdept being corrected , and instead insist women posters are "too emotional" or must have been traumatised. gosh, yeah, that's why i want people to think and choose their words.
if you pay attention, you'll notice that a lot of people will use the term "having sex" to describe an rape.
it colors the episode in a different, more positive light, and i'm not sure all who do it even realise it. it's generally not acceptable to tell a rape victim they "had sex", but it seems hard for some to adopt that POV for even a moment.

yeah, the rape apologist doesn't want to believe it but:

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes Jonny raped Suzy because he got excited and lost his mind."

they sure give Johny a pass here, don't they?

[mongo]

536. It's giving Johnny a pass

but it's also a case that challenges the paradigm.

Let's assume Jonny isn't a sociopath. Let's assume Jonny isn't a violent person as such.

Jonny had an expectation for sex. It was Suzie's right to deny sexual access, but is Jonny's motivation based on a need to control and humiliate, is it to express his rage at women in general or Suzy in particular? Is there a sexual componant to his motivation? What pushed Jonny over the edge into non-consent? Is it his own feelings of inadequecy from being turned down? Are there intoxicating substances in play that have affected his judgement?

I don't have answers here -- and I'm playing devil's advocate (dangerous in this thread for sure). Just trying to make the point that in this case rape may not be typical expression of rage and control from a sociopath. Doesn't make rape into sex, doesn't make it understandable or acceptable, but it does bring up more than just the accepted viewpoint that ALL rapists are violent, cruel sociopaths who express their hatred for women through rape.

There is nothing so complex in this world as human sexuality.

Gotta go, will be back tomorrow.

[Kailassa]

557. I wanted to answer you last night but was too tired.

BettyEllen did it beautifully, but I wanted to bring up another aspect.

It has often been suggested that rape is just a perverted type of sex and that people acquire that perversion by watching porn. The "one thing leads to another" argument is used, which has as much validity now as it did long ago when I was told burning incense would inevitably lead to me becoming a drug addict.

The "rape is a type of sex" argument is predominantly used by two groups of people; those who want to make rape seem excusable, and those who want to ban pornography.

My argument against this is based on my own experiences and those my friends and family have told me about. I could relate more 1st and 2nd hand accounts of being raped than you would want to hear, but I don't personally know of a single one where the motive was a need for sexual satisfaction. It has always been a wish to dominate, hurt and humiliate, or at least a wish to stay part of a group that is doing those things.

Some people find watching simulated-rape porn with a partner, where it is obviously simulated, and then acting out some dark and naughty fantasies, fun. That is sexual, it's a way to play together. Actual rape has nothing to do with that. It's just a way to physically express hatred in the most destructive way possible.

[mongo]

558. Interesting points

Especially on RW attitudes.

[bloom]

529. "to say rape is an exchange is like saying murder is an exchange"

You said that well.... "but raping is not an exchange, it is a taking"

It seems that there are some men who are having difficulty with this concept. (and maybe some women, too).


Some people need to get that rape does not equal sex, nor is it a type of sex. Maybe they think they are playing word games or something - as if since sexual organs are used - that it is a form of sex. Maybe they read/heard things (pornography?) that equates the two - I don't know.

Someone thought that since the words "sexual assault" are used that THAT proves that rape is sexual in nature. I think that for the people who refuse to say that rape is about "sex" - it may very well be because sex is considered something that is mutual and those who argue that rape IS about "sex" - do not understand the importance of mutuality - or do not see it as a necessary component of sex. (That seems to say something about them).

It's really about people examining how they view sex for themselves (and others).

[bettyellen]

535. it's interesting how these posters quickly become hostile and angry at

being corrected.
defending their POV by splitting hairs, playing word games, attempts at baiting and discrediting the person- usually woman-- who disagrees with them.
it only reaffirms that they want their regressive busllshit validated, the rest of us be damned for expecting a re4asoned debate.
look at my exchange with mongo, he is the opposite of these posters, he didn't need to be hostile in his disagreement at all.
there's a world of difference.

[0007]

571. It is something that two person enjoy. I agree with you bettyellen.

[nashville_brook]

273. in my journal, there's a piece called "SEX and FASCISM"

or words to that effect... the development of a rape fetish (i don't think) is quite the same as R. Crumb's famed leg festish -- but i totally back your point. these things don't happen in a vacuum. rape doesn't occur just b/c a woman is an exotic dancer. or just because she gigged a frat party. these are really complex social issues. i'll go one step further...

this is large-scale, caligula-style decadence. this isn't a garden variety 'boys will boys' kind of accusation. plenty of frat parties can have hired exotic talent and wind up on the national news. IF a rape occurred, the way it is said to have occurred, then the issue might resonate beyond the specifics of this case. we might start asking ourselves 'what are WE doing to either perpetrate or heal" the structures that made this possible?

[LostinVA]

248. Rape is never about sex

[porphyrian]

270. Well, you're just wrong.

Sorry.

[LostinVA]

279. Well, you're just wrong. Sorry.

[porphyrian]

288. I know you are but what am I?

Denying the reality of rape does nothing to prevent it, or to heal the victims of it.

[NashVegas]

298. Porphyrian's Right

Saying that rape has nothing to do with sex is like saying the South didn't fight for the right to own slaves, in the civil war, but for their economy and "state's rights."

It's dishonest, and it denies the give/take nature of sex and human relationships.

If rape has nothing to do with sex, rape would not exist.

[nashville_brook]

304. rape as a means of torture?

prison rape?

are these all about the sex?

i agree with you btw. i think there is room for grey areas in this and we need to be conscious of our honesty in examing the question.

[NashVegas]

448. Basically, Yes

If one views sex as an exchange between parties, and views rape as an exchange where one participant is actually unwilling.

Then you have the cases of rape in war zones, ye olde raping and pillaging. If you listen to some archaeologists/historians, there is the Darwinian factor of melding the conquerors with the population of the conquered.

For the violators, sex is not the goal (conquest), it is the means of getting to the goal.

[bettyellen]

498. "IF ONE VIEWS RAPE AS AN EXCHANGE" how low can you go?

it's amazing the disturbing rationalizations that i've seen around here trying to normalize pschopathic behaviour.
exchange my ass.

and army's rape often cause mass genocide- women are murdered before those babies come to term. in islamic as well as many other cultures those women are ruined for life after rape.
"melding" that actually sounds like a good thing.

[NashVegas]

517. Not As Low As Someone Who Intentionally Misquotes Another And ...

Lifts things out of context, in order to have someone to scream at.

[bettyellen]

526. i quoted you word for word, and you suggest looking at rape as an

exchange.
why the hell would anyone agree with that? what is the rape victim getting out of it? please, do tell!

[NashVegas]

533. You Lifted What You Wanted to So You Could Flame Someone

The full sentence:

If one views sex as an exchange between parties,

See, that's the first part of the logic.

and views rape as an exchange where one participant is actually unwilling.

That's part two - and it's a far fucking cry from what you've made it to be.

Then we get to the logical conclusion, the post I was responding to, which asked if it was conceivable that rape could be equated with torture, the answer was yes.


Do DU a favor and stop being so hung up on having someone to flame that you twist others' words.

[Name removed]

472. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[porphyrian]

489. I am NOT promoting rape culture.

I have done nothing but say that rape is entirely unacceptable.

I find your implications that I may be somehow involved in incest both offensive and revolting.

I reject your idiotic attempt to say that admitting that rape has sexual elements somehow gives it legitimacy, which it doesn't, and I'm not claiming it does. In fact, I've only said the contrary, despite your and others' attempts to frame what I've said otherwise.

I can't believe how low you are willing to go over a disagreement about language, essentially calling me a rapist or rapist-sympathizer (great liberal tactic, by the way), which seems to be the real problem in this argument. Sex is a clinical term, despite yours and others' attempts to make it more. Rape involves sexual elements, despite yours and others' denial of this fact. If you don't like my use of the word "sex," fill in whatever word you find appropriate.

[bettyellen]

500. wow, you're offended and revolted by the implication.....

you got a dose of exactly what you gave out to every single poster who disagreed with you.

and your reaction is more interesting than anything you've posted thus far.
actually it's hilarious.

[porphyrian]

503. I'm so happy I could entertain you at my expense. - n/t

[bettyellen]

505. me too! and i hope it was a learning, growing experience for you. :)

because you could certainly use it.

[Name removed]

506. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

508. people aren't going to cut you a break and treat you with more respect

than you do for them. so it is hilarious that you should cry foul. fucking hilarious.
believeing that you deserve better, puts you on that oh so slippery slope of sociopathy, bud.
go discuss that with your imaginary psychologist friends.

[porphyrian]

534. I don't want a break or respect. I just don't understand how dense...

...some of you are acting. I'm an asshole when I feel like it, and I'm not trying to make friends. I'm trying to stop the lie that there is no sexual element to rape when there is.

[Iris]

255. what century are you from?

[porphyrian]

269. I was born in the last one, but I live in this one now.

Don't delude yourself. What I'm saying is true. Rape is not just an act of violence, and it's dishonest or wrong to claim otherwise. Rapists often rape for sexual pleasure as well, sometimes just for it.

[nashville_brook]

275. Wikipedia, on rape

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

not sure how this affects this sub-thread -- but thought i'd throw it out there.

It has been proposed that one cause of victim-blaming is the "just world hypothesis". People who believe that the world has to be fair, may find it hard or impossible to accept a situation in which a person is unfairly and badly hurt for no cause or reason. This leads to a sense that, somehow, the victim must have surely done 'something' to deserve their fate.

Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability. This inspires people to believe that rape only happens to those who deserve or provoke the assault (Schneider et. al., 1994). This is a way of feeling safer. If the potential victim avoids the behaviours of the past victims then they themselves will remain safe and feel less vulnerable. A global survey of attitudes toward sexual violence by the Global Forum for Health Research <8> shows that victim-blaming concepts are at least partially accepted in many countries. In some countries, victim-blaming is more common, and women who have been raped are sometimes deemed to have behaved improperly. Often, these are countries where there is a significant social divide between the freedoms and status afforded to men and women.

[porphyrian]

293. I believe I'm being hounded by someone this may apply to. - n/t

[readmoreoften]

417. oh, yeah, you're a "victim". my violin is weeping. /nt

[porphyrian]

492. Thanks for fueling the ignorance. - n/t

[xmas74]

301. Rape is usually about empowerment.

The person might become aroused and might feel gratification because of the power that they wield over the other person but that part is secondary. First and foremost rape is about empowering the perp. I used to work w/ rapists-they will tell you that it was more about power than it ever was about sex. Every last one of them stated that it was about the power that they could wield over another human being.

If it were about sex then why is it some rapists will still rape again, even if they have been medically castrated? They are not able to become physically aroused and often become angrier because they cannot become aroused yet they still rape.

The goal of the rapist is empowerment. The outcome is the physical defilement that we all call rape. The two are separate yet similar. They must have that sense of making another person bend to their will, of taking what is not theirs, of feeling entitled to hurt and humiliate another human in order to complete the rape.

[nashville_brook]

306. yep -- it's the post-castration phenomena that makes this a homerun.

no one has mentioned this yet. it's a really good point.

[xmas74]

312. Thank you.

I've spent my time working w/ rapists in a state run institution. Most of the men I worked w/ were also mentally challenged.

It didn't matter if they received their monthly (every other or every three months, depending on their dose) of Depo-Provera. And it didn't matter if there were no females around. Some still attempted to rape the younger men or those they saw as less of a threat. And it didn't matter if they couldn't "get it up"; they simply moved to digitally raping or using objects.

It was all about wielding power over another human being; all about empowering themselves. The men in the program felt powerless over their own lives. They needed to feel powerful in at least one aspect. And, from what I understood at their group meetings, most of the thrill was in planning up to the event, whether it took a minute or months to plan. More than anything it was the anticipation of the event that really caused the arousal and not the event itself.

[nashville_brook]

484. ... personal experience

i have a relative who was put in a state hospital before he was a teenager. he looks normal, but he's psychotic and has a very low IQ. we think he he prolly raped as a child. it's florida, so now that he's an adult, he's a freebird.

i have all the letters he wrote to his grandmother -- they were ALL ABOUT powerlessness and his blind desire for power. most people have other things they think about -- he CAN'T -- he's stuck in this one dynamic of power/no-power.

here's something that the family found on him --
Good Samaritan Speaks Out After Attempted Abduction
http://firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=44912

my intuition is that he wasn't going to rape the child himself. from what i've gleened from his letters (of decades ago) he's more likely to do something like this for approval from an authority figure -- probably someone he knows from foster homes in jacksonville. i've been trying to get more information on the incident. it happened in september and i just found out about it a few weeks ago. i sure as hell don't want to be identified as a 'caregiver' -- i'm not capable. he's a full-grown psychotic man. if you've heard about the book "Crazy" -- the father's memoir of trying to get help for his psychotic son -- that was the story of our family's life.

anyway -- this speaks to the 'social contract' part of the debate. if the lacrosse men raped that woman, they did it as an act of will. it was an expression of extreme decadence. they COULD have chosen NOT TO do it. the psychotic rapist...they don't have the reliable ability to 'choose.'

[xmas74]

540. Exactly.

It all comes down to power, no matter who has chosen to do the act. I could offer more points but I have to pick the little one up from school! Big fieldtrip today and I'm sure she's ready to tell me all about it.

[Mandate My Ass]

313. some post-castration rapists, or those who for whatever reason can't

get it up in the stress of a rape in progress, usually end up stabbing their victims to death as a substitute for sticking their dick into her.

A man with an open-minded, GGG partner could role play non-consensual sexual intercourse, but no rapist I've ever heard of tried to get it that way and then "graduated" to rape or resorted to rape when he couldn't get his fantasy satisfied legitimately. All the ones I've read about by FBI profilers started beating off to violent porn and then went right into business as rapists. It's the violence that gets them off, not some innocent fetish.

Rapists are predatory beasts, nothing more, nothing less.

[LostinVA]

430. Rapists are sociopaths

Excellent points you made in your post.

[porphyrian]

364. What are the chances they were telling you what they thought...

...you wanted to hear? I don't deny anything you say, I just wonder how likely it was that those rapists were playing to your expectations, especially if they were incarcerated at the time.

One of the psychologists I've talked with knows (professionally) the man who interviewed Ted Bundy, where he blamed all his murders on pornography. My friend says that his colleague is personally invested in proving pornography to be a bad thing, and that Bundy was merely throwing the man a bone in that interview.

I have no idea if you have an agenda or not, but I wonder if the rapists you've talked to weren't throwing you a bone, to get quicker parole or something.

[gkhouston]

527. I'm seeing a difference between this information and what Bundy said

Bundy blaming his crimes on porn is just BS to put the blame on something other than himself. Saying that the rush is about a feeling of empowerment rather than pure sexual arousal and that the act of planning is what is most gratifying doesn't sound like it's really doing much to distance the perpetrator from the crime. That impotent rapists will still re-offend lends credence to the "it's about empowerment" theory.

[porphyrian]

548. You're trying to draw too much of an analogy where none was...

...intended. I only brought up Bundy as an example of people telling psychiatric authorities what they want to hear. I was curious if there was any chance that the rapists might have done the same. I had no agenda in doing so, I was really just curious.

[xmas74]

538. They were incarcerated in a state mental ward.

On average, those in a mental ward in Missouri (those who go for a 552 plead) will serve double the rate as they would if they had chosen prison time. Most of the men I worked w/ were already there for a life sentence. The only difference they could make in their lives is that of whether to spend it in prison or in a hospital.

There was no agenda to feed into but there were other factors that I cannot discuss (you understand-nothing that can identify. Yet it is the facts for each case that would interest you and help you to understand why power is so important to the rapist and sex is the secondary.) I can say this-I transferred from a men's lockdown to a women's lockdown, where there were a few female rapists. Guess what the underlying factor was w/ the females and raping? You got it-power.

[porphyrian]

550. Cool, thanks! - n/t

[WhiteTara]

537. if rape dehumanizes a person, then what does

that say about someone who "wants sex" with a non human? No, rape is not about sex, it is about power. If they wanted sex, there is always someone willing to sell it. To demand someone give over their body for someone else's gratification is always violent, even if they don't use a gun or a knife. JMHO of course

edited for more correct wording.

[Roaming]

547. If sex takes place and it's pleasurable to at least one party, then

of course it's about sex.

[LostinVA]

552. OMG -- this is sick -- so, if the rapists likes it, it's sex

God help the woman in your life.

[Samurai_Writer]

554. Supposedly that poster is a woman.

That makes it doubly sick.

[LostinVA]

555. OMG

[Roaming]

559. You TOTALLy misinterpreted that post

What I was saying is that rape is not just about violence; it's gotta be about sex for the rapist because he's obviously enjoying it. It's disgusting, but I cannot understand how people can see it's just about violence.

[entanglement]

5. Wonderful post

Nominated

[nashville_brook]

7. thanks -- it feels good to get this out there!

[Marie26]

8. K&R

Excellent post.

[sheelz]

9. Wow! This is a very important post....

K&R

[nashville_brook]

11. it was a very important ad campaign

not all media is bad

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nashville_brook]

12. does sex 'equal' violence

see, that's telling you something about your belief system. why does money + spread legs = rape to you?

[nashville_brook]

15. reminds me of Spinal Tap," ...what's wrong with saxy?'

sniff the glove

[nashville_brook]

42. "Ian, you put a greased, naked girl on all fours with a dog collar..."

Bobbi Flekman: Ian, Ian, you put a greased, naked girl on all fours with a dog collar around her neck ...
Ian Faith: - Yes, a dog collar ...
Bobbi Flekman: - and a leash ...
Ian Faith: - A leash ...
Bobbi Flekman: - and a man's arm holding on to the leash extended out to here shoving a black glove in her face to sniff it, and you don't find that sexist? You don't find that offensive?
Ian Faith: No, I don't find that offensive: this is 1982 -!
Bobbi Flekman: You're darn right, 'this is 1982,' we don't have this mentality any more; get out of the sixties -!
Ian Faith: Well, you should have seen the cover they *wanted* to do; it wasn't a glove, I can assure you!

[Skittles]

315. that's DAWG collar, nashville!

:D

[The Doctor.]

143. That was "Smell the Glove"...

Most of those things make no difference.

If a rape did indeed occur, and she wasn't trying to 'make a little extra' (My wife works with exotic dancers, they do 'extras' all the time), then the young men should be tried.

If this is a farce, I hope the judge recognizes it and dismisses the case.

-The problem there of course is that whether or not the judge is correct in doing so, screams of 'racism' will abound.

If the judge is black, the same will happen.

[LostinVA]

250. She was raped -- the ER Forensic nurse has stated so

[timber84]

469. Really apparently there are some photographs that show she

was injured before the time she says she was raped.

[TorchTheWitch]

414. "extras"

If a rape did indeed occur, and she wasn't trying to 'make a little extra' (My wife works with exotic dancers, they do 'extras' all the time), then the young men should be tried.

Just because some dancers do "extras" does not mean we all do. I have never once in my entire dancing career have ever done "extras" no matter how much customers are willing to pay. I absolutely hate it that some customers will ask or even expect that I would. But, I don't blame them because there are dancers that do. However, just because there are those that will, doesn't mean we ALL will.

As far as the Duke case in question goes, I wouldn't make a judgement one way or the other without first seeing ALL the evidence, but I'm leaning pretty closely toward her being raped. It is my theory that this particular dancer is willing to engage in "extras" for a number of reasons. It is difficult or even impossible to do "extras" IN a club and FAR easier to get caught. If a stripper were interested in doing "extras", outcall stripping would definitely be the way to go. The fact that she didn't bring security with her also points to a willingness to do "extras" since a good deal of the point to having security in the first place is to prevent a sexual assault. It has been said here that this stripper used to be an escort. I haven't seen that in any articles, but I'm assuming it wouldn't have been said here without there being some kind of confirmation of that. The only difference between an escort and a hooker is the payment structure... typically, hookers are paid per "menu item" where escorts are paid for blocks of time in which they do whatever sexual acts they are comfortable doing and may or may not include some time spent with a customer that doesn't include sex. If she in fact did once work as an escort it clearly shows a willingness to engage in performing sexual acts for pay.

Whether or not this particular stripper is willing to engage in "extras" or not is immaterial. To believe a woman can't be raped because she sells sex is ridiculous... just because I strip for a living doesn't mean someone is entitled to rip my clothes off at the grocery store or even when I'm at work. In fact, to me, and what I personally know about this business, if she is willing to perform sexual acts for pay only reinforces my impression that she was indeed raped.

First, if all she was doing was "extras" that she doesn't have a problem doing, there would be little reason for the relatively brief time she was at the party... it would take a looooong time to service as many of the guests as I would suspect would have been interested in participating. To say that she willingly engaged in sex at this party and is only crying rape because they ripped her off, would be pretty silly since no woman that does sex for money does it without being paid FIRST. To say that they stole the money afterward and that was the reason she cried rape seems pretty ridiculous because it would not only destroy her college career (colleges don't like strippers) it would probably destroy her stripping career at least in that geographical area, and she would have known this... she would have to have been willing to accept the damage to her scolastic life as well as her business life, and I don't see that as being plausable particularly given how little money would have been stolen in that scenerio.

There are three main things that convince me SOMETHING was done to her at this party. One is the four fingernails found in the bathroom. It takes a LOT of force to completely break off a fake fingernail (and it HURTS). For there to have been four broken off clearly shows me that there was a physical altercation of some kind that took place in the bathroom. The second thing is that very incriminating email that was sent so soon afterward. The third is that after examination of her she was determined to have injuries consistant with forced sex. There is actually another thing... strippers being raped on an outcall job is COMMON when there is an absense of security personnel and THE biggest reason I absolutely will not do it even with the biggest scariest gun toting bouncer on the planet.

The absense of DNA found on her really doesn't trouble me. Real world forensics is nothing like the TV CSI show. The reason that women are told not to wash after a sexual assault is because it destroys evidence. I absolutely believe that this woman DID wash up since there was evidence in the bathroom that points to that. If she had willing sex with the guys, and there is no DNA evidence of that, then she most certainly could have been raped with no DNA evidence.

That last line again...

If she had willing sex with the guys, and there is no DNA evidence of that, then she most certainly could have been raped with no DNA evidence.

Therefore, whether or not she does "extras" is immaterial.

SOMETHING awful happened to the woman at this party or there would have been no reason for that disgusting email.

[LostinVA]

432. Interesting post -- thanks

I was wondering about the fingernails, and you answered the question -- I know they aren't just held on with Elmer's Glue!

[TorchTheWitch]

464. Another interesting point about the nails

I just realized something...

The lack of DNA evidence ONLY refers to those samples taken off her BODY. I wonder what DNA evidence may have been found on those nails tips that broke off.

I know they aren't just held on with Elmer's Glue!

An interesting story about how strong nail glue is...

12 years ago I had all my upper teeth capped. While reclining in the dentist's chair waiting for the dentist to put the new caps on I smelled a strong distinct odor of nail glue (although I wear my own fingernails now, back then I was a big fan of the fakes). I jokingly asked the dentist if he planned on doing my nails since I could smell that distinctive odor, and he told me that the glue they use to put on permanent tooth caps is the SAME glue used for fake nails.

5 years ago I had the lower teeth capped... and could not help giggling when once again I smelled that nail glue to put my new caps on. It just seems so funny to me that the same glue for putting on nails is the same glue for putting on tooth caps.

So yeah, nail glue is strong stuff.

[LostinVA]

478. I chew mine, so have no nails -- very interesting again!

[nashville_brook]

551. great post!

i had not thought about the email like that. duh. and for the other insight -- wow. good points.

[The Doctor.]

553. I never said that any 'extras' would be an invitation for rape

But what happens when the dancer doesn't get paid what he/she was promised?
Or perhaps it was something else.

As for the 'multiple service', I'd have to wonder if anyone on the team might have been celbrating a birthday or something.

Just throwing those out there, Otherwise I can pretty much agree with you.

[The Witch]

13. ...

:popcorn:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. when somebody blames the victim

aren't they pretty much asking to get flamed?

[dogday]

26. How come all of a sudden the rule of law

is being disputed.. When we catch a pervert, oh he is guilty, but when a man is charged with rape, the rule of law goes out the window.. This went before a grand jury... They said charge these guys, they have..

When the trial comes along, we shall see, but until then it is just not realistic to take any sides, it is better to let the rule of law proceed.....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. If I were on the jury, I'd agree.

Since I'm part of the public, I'll share my public opinion.

Kind of like how I think Bush is guilty of pretty much everything, even though he hasn't been convicted by a jury of his peers yet.

As for this particular case, I doubt the grand jury would have indicted without some hard evidence. And since we know it's not DNA, I'm betting it's an eye witness.

[nashville_brook]

50. this isn't a sporting match -- there's no side to take

understanding the world and encouraging a 'civitas' worth living in -- are more than about which side wins or loses.

if you must use a sports metaphor, use baseball. look deeper than 'yardage gained.'

[dogday]

64. I don't understand what you are saying to me

I never said any of that??????

[nashville_brook]

161. riff on 'taking sides' -- sorry to confuse

a world where the only acceptable action is to wait for the verdict is much like a sporting match. it's the way tv presents the controversy: "here's the defense, weighing in at... " blah blah blah. the focus is on someone being winning. someone losing.

i guess i just wonder if that's a healthy way to look at trials that involve intricate matters of culture.

[katty]

75. good point, pervs/rape (more outrage against pervs)

[seabeyond]

44. did she have a part in creating her own victimization?

legitmate question. i am asking

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Your asking if she raped herself?

?

[seabeyond]

53. no that is not what i am asking

are you playing coy, that you dont get my question? i dont do coy

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Would you like me to be more direct?

No, she didn't rape herself.

[seabeyond]

60. bully for you. i never said she raped herself. still shruggin shoulders

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. You asked if she victimized herself.

And since she's a victim of rape, that's pretty much what you asked.

Or would you like to rephrase the question?

[seabeyond]

65. no it isnt what i asked. you can interpret it that way, but it doesnt

make it so. i do need to rephrase my question.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. You're asking if she set herself up to be raped.

Well then yes, I suppose by having a vagina and an anus then she totally set herself up for being raped.

In the same sort of way that owning a car is totally begging to be a victim of car theft.

[seabeyond]

80. owning a car, =begging for theft

a couple years ago my car in my garage had keys on floor. my brother came in thru the garage about midnight and left the door open. thru out the night a bright lite shined down on my car for all in the dark of night to see this car sitting there, with eys, begging to be stolen. and you know what, .... it was stolen

i had to have a little chuckle on my part, or rather my brothers. but really mine. because i know my brother well, and should have assumed he would have forgotten to shut the door, and lock up my car, or check after him. but a car is a thing. i can chuckle. rape is different. it is a physical hurt

now i did blame the people that stole. i said, even if it were bright as day, and the key in ignition and a sign that said steal me,.... and they did. still htey committed the act. they get punished

but

yes

i see my role in it

just as

a young age, going to an older adult party. getting drunk. and having some male walk in and then proceed to rape me. his bad. i never blamed me for his bad. i did see my part in it. i learned a lesson. and that never happened again.

so though you would like to try to make what i am saying, blaming the victim. and allowing the pass on the rapist. i am not. and it is as simple as that.

but, being a female, and going into a room of drunk young males would have made me wary. would not have trusted, well.... guys should stop at no. i know they dont. i know group affects some males. i know booze effects males..... what can i say. personal responsibility is important to me

does it make rape ok. no it doesnt and nowhere have i stated that

[peacebird]

283. as a victim of rape I find your comments utterly BEYOND reprehensible.

In fact - they nauseate me.

It's the old bs about "asking" to be raped because of what you wear, or being pretty, or being foolish.... How freaking DARE you?!?

RAPE is a crime - women don't ASK to be violated, humiliated.... And we certainly don't need cretins proseylitizing that somehow WE are responsible for being raped.

Most of us are not physically capable of stopping an attack - and the question that haunts is should I have fought harder and if I did would he have carried out the threat to kill me?

Rape (for victims) is about trying to SURVIVE.

DAMN YOU.

"Personal responsibility" is just another freaking code word for BLAME THE VICTIM.

:grr:

[nashville_brook]

339. i hope you also see how her 'blame the victim' ideology serves her

perceived survival. i totally agree with you -- she didn't deserve to be raped no matter how she looked. obviously. but she's reacting to this issue from a place of deep pain. it's not a rational place. not yet for her at least b/c she still thinks she is responsible.

such is depth of this pain -- it actually gets women to be complicit in their attack.

i also totally agree with the anger in your post. it's a lot more healthy than self-blame. you are in a much better place than the other poster.

[seabeyond]

357. i am not blaming the victim. but it doesnt matter how many times i say

that. does it. what does it mean, when a person ignores over and over and over again, what i post???

i took time to answer your question below. i took it serious. only to come to this post. i walked away from this thread, because people keep saying i said, when i never said.

and you drew me back in

[jukes]

340. peacebird

i agree w/ you completely, and share your disgust for the apologists that suggest that a rapist just needs sex really badly.

in fact, i find a number of these posts personally offensive and intentionally disruptive.

[seabeyond]

359. rapist just needs sex really badly.

and am i being accused of saying this also???? cause really, it just doesnt sound like me. but i seem to be having a lot of words put in my mouth. who has said a rapist just needs sex really really bad.

[jukes]

375. well, that's what i read

perhaps you cd articulate more clearly...

[seabeyond]

379. you didnt read in any of my posts that i said a rapist really really

needed sex. that is flat out bullshit.

and this is when i say you own your bullshit. and that has nothing to do with my articulation. just crap

on eidt: i can see you really arent into an honest conversation. i will leave you alone

[jukes]

383. please do!

or leave.

and your articulation is "bullshit,"

[nashville_brook]

336. did you report the rape?

did you tell your parents?

on the other hand -- did you report the car theft? did you tell your parents?

does "accepting the responsibility" for your actions make you LESS likely to be raped now? does that make you feel more secure?

i'm just pointing out that there's a reason why you might feel this way. a damn good reason -- in your experience, it's a survival instinct. take responsibility -- act accordingly -- and enjoy greater security.

BUT -- what about women who haven't walked in your shoes?

[seabeyond]

355. i was young, unexperienced, drunk

confused and it was in the 70's. they didnt talk about date rape yet. (or being at a party)

thank you for actually asking questions instead of damning me to hell.

no i didnt tell my parents. no i didnt report the rape.

my car theft was when i was fourty. i think that alone is a big difference. but i do get your point.

i have just always been the type of person that looks at a situation and reasoned it. i just have never sat in emotional turmoil. recognizing what i did in the situation absolutely made me more aware in the future. but i will tell you i wasnt blaming me in any way what so ever. rape, the behavior of this man to me, is all on him. that isnt tough for me to do. and because of this, i am not angry. i am not angry at him, and i am not angry with my self. i dont feel helpless. i dont feel like a victim. it doesnt hurt. i am not in pain. i dont hold it and carry it with me. it is healing. empowering.

but then i do this with everything in my life. i also get to take credit for all the good in my life too. i get to own that also. and that....... is pretty damn good

now i may ask, to those that say i am full of bullshit...... why am i not sittin in mess of rape, if i am full of bullshit.

drinking alone. i know what happens to me when i drink. how i behave. for me to pretend that it wasnt a factor, arent i lying to myself? i just dont believe in lying, especially to myself. why is that bad of me to recognize when i drink my behavior and awareness changes? is that really me saying that i asked to be raped? that doesnt make sense to me.

[seabeyond]

376. here is an experience. my 12 yr old niece recently went to a

restaraunt with a friend of hers and a friend of mine, my age, 43. my niece has a body of a woman, but she isnt a sexuality aware girl. she is very much a child yet, though she is growing up just fine, not too fast. (feel like i have to justify everything out of my mouth) anyway, i find out later that the waiter about 24 was rubbing his crotch up against her to pretend pouring water. i was pissed. i asked my friend what she did. say anything to the dude. no she was afraid. did you get up and say soemthing to the manager, and my friend said, she was afraid. it was a woman manager and she didnt think she would do anything. (now i am bothered what i am hearing because what she is teaching my niece). i say something about how she has a responsibility to stand up to this man, to teach the 12 year olds, speak out. she says, she was afraid because of where she parked, it was isolated. (i am finding a whole lot of things that i am giving my friend to own. just am) i told her, you could have looked around the restaraunt and found a family man and go to the table and say, yawl, a waiter was doing something inappropriate with my niece and i am afraid to walk out to my car. and that man would have walked those girls out

why is this so important?

it is important to show the girls to speak up, not to take that crap for a moment. the reason this waiter did it to a 12 year old girl is because he was pretty sure he would get away with it

going to a man in the restaraunt does a couple things. it teaches the niece that not all men are pigs and that there are men that will be out there that will be helpful to them. use them. they will want to do this. i know all my men would be right there. how many men on this board would protect those women? tons....

and it will give something to the male. it will show him live, what women are experiencing, it will reinforce for him, his role of protector, it will be good and healthy for him too.

win win all around

and i told my niece. dont keep mouth shut. the one place you can cuss, be rude, be mean be ugly. cause. we girls are taught to be nice. not hurt feelings. i told her tell that asshole to get the fuck away. and the guy would have ran. and she would have been empowered instead of feeling like a victim.

this is a situation that happened in dec. does it really sound like i am a bitch that blame women for their rape and dont put much time and thought into this whole subject?

[nashville_brook]

501. okay -- i'm here and this is the first post since

your PM. i want to address this as one woman speaking to another.

when you went to that party as a young woman or young girl -- exactly HOW did and DO you perceive your role in the attack? was it because you were too young to be among older folks? was it because you perceive you were inexperienced in the social cues of adult 'partying?' do you look back and think -- 'omg, if i had been a little older or a little smarter or a little more demure -- that wouldn't have happened.

i want to say to you ("you statement," i know) that i feel your pain. how many times have i kicked myself for my inexperience, naivete, and INNOCENCE that got me in trouble. yes m'am -- learn the lesson and pass it on to your daughters and sisters and anyone who will listen. BUT THIS WAS NOT YOUR FAULT. plenty of young women drink in the company of men and aren't raped. THEY bear the responsibility of the CRIME. you "only" bear the responsibility of your theapuetic life thereafter. you didn't bring this on yourself. you didn't ask them to rape you. HOW COULD YOU HAVE KNOWN, being young and innocent? isn't that what innocence is all about? THEY STOLE THAT FROM YOU. period.

now -- therapeutically (as opposed to criminally) you MUST go forward with this in your past. i can completely understand how "taking responsibility" for the attack is an adaptive strategy. they stole your control. "taking responsibility" gives CONTROL back to you -- and we have to have control if we are to live. it's a decent place to start in a personal journey of healing. but stay there. don't take the blame for what you don't deserve. the THEIF stole the car. the RAPIST stole your soul. you aren't to blame.

all of this is to say -- there's a big difference between public criminality and personal responsibility.

moreover -- it's not accurate or healthy to place all the blame on yourself. i can tell you from personal experience it's MUCH easier to FORGIVE others than it is to forgive myself. i'd much rather beat myself up over anything, really, than confront the real problem. taking responsibility sometimes means letting go. let go of the illusion of control. there are some things we will never be able to control. shit happens. Dukka. life is suffering. it's up to us to heal and teach.

and stay out of harms way.

but when something bad happens -- sometimes it's just that. a really bad thing that someone else did to you. hard as it is to believe, you can move out of this mindset and find a different peace.

personal story -- my mother abandoned me as an infant. because of this, i have HARDWIRED abandonment issues. i want to blame myself for not being loveable enough. but that's crazy. she was the one to blame -- not me. regardless, for the rest of my life i will have to be aware of this blemish on my psyche and give it it's due.

that's not the same as a rape, but the HARDWIRED messages your emotional brain keeps sending are similar. maybe when you hear about young women binge drinking at frat parties you get an elevated pulse and just want to grab them and say, "go home and put some clothes on." your survival instinct is kicking in. we are wired for this -- it's in our LIMBIC BRAIN. its a mammalian trait -- like how birds startle and fly to avoid a predator. but as HUMANS in a CIVILIZATION of LAWS, we depend on the social contract to intervene in this STATE OF NATURE. humans are not allowed to prey on each other in civil society. we create laws to deter and remove the predators.

sexual predators look for the young and infirm the same way a hungry lion stalks weak zebra. they don't go after the strong ones. it's too challenging. it might not 'payoff.'

the person who raped you was and is a PREDATOR. it's up to society to shoot them with the tranquilizer gun and reduce the harm they will further do to society. so, you see, even tho you think you finished your job of healing by blaming yourself -- what about all the women who might be have been preyed upon by your rapist not having to answer for his crime.

yikes -- i've gone on way too long, but i wanted to really really get down to brass tacks, on a personal level since you took the time to PM me. please, if any of this strikes a chord, PM me again.

:hug:
-- brook

[seabeyond]

512. once i realized i was being raped, i did not blame myself. when

i walked out of the bathroom and it was sinking in, i did not blame myself. when i got home and laid in bed and played it in my head, i did not blame myself. i didnt blame myself in the morning. i dont blame myself now.





"now -- therapeutically (as opposed to criminally) you MUST go forward with this in your past. i can completely understand how "taking responsibility" for the attack is an adaptive strategy. they stole your control. "taking responsibility" gives CONTROL back to you -- and we have to have control if we are to live. it's a decent place to start in a personal journey of healing. but stay there. don't take the blame for what you don't deserve. the THEIF stole the car. the RAPIST stole your soul. you aren't to blame.

all of this is to say -- there's a big difference between public criminality and personal responsibility. "

no one can steal a damn thing from me, i would have to give it up, i guess that would about be the time i am a victim. not my control, not my innocents, and certainly not my soul. this part of your post, ..... is exactly what i was suggesting for the girl in healing, that i have continued to be attacked for. i never say blame. owning is in and of itself forgiving self. forgiving self isnt hard for me. forgiving others, piece of cake. i am not going to hold the anger in not forgiving and living in shit, because of what someone did...... shit happens., damn right and it is what we do with it after the shit happens. but this part of your post. is what i am saying.....and did and do in my life. it works well.

as i said in another post, i get to own the bad and the ugly, but the upside i get to also own all the good too.... and the good so out weighs any bad....

i wanted to say more in this post, but gotta go. read about my 12 yr oldniece. i dont put up with shit..... from anyone. i do know what i am talking about. i do put in the time

[mongo]

507. come on seabeyond

Being an exotic dancer is not "asking for it".

Are coal miners asking for black lung?

For whatever personal or economic reasons, this woman was a dancer. When you say that putting herself in that position somehow gives her responsibility for being raped just helps fuel more violence against other women.

It's the same argument as requiring burkas for women. If they aren't covered head-to-toe, then they must want to be raped.

[seabeyond]

509. you too mongo. where did i say asking for it

to interpret my words for agenda. to own, is not asking for or taking the blame.....

i am coming back to this post, good to see you. but.... i have an employee out and gotta go to work. i will e able to read, people saying i said, that i never said...... but i wont be able to respond

a coal minor taking a col mining job understands the increased risk and for whatever reason accepts the risk. a smoker (me) understands the increased risk and i took it for my reasons. that is not asking for it in my book. i dont think i am asking for lung cancer. i am praying i dont get it. but, i own i made the choice that increased my risk


"responsibility for being raped " again this is another thing i did not say, but is continued to be said, being in a postion that increses the likelihood of rape, is different than being responsible for your rape. the man that made the decision to rape, is the only one responsible for the choice of rape,. clearly i have said that over and over and over


"then they must want to be raped." and i didnt say this either. but then we can have a huge ass argument with me over all the things i didnt say

be back

[seabeyond]

513. i am going to get in trouble cause i am going to be late

btw i tell my son to own his part in an event with a bully, or someone to own there part in a car accident, or the rest of the zillions of choices we make in life. becasue i say this on rape, i get my ass chewed out. and becasue it is a stripper you are saying htis to me, lol lol. really, i am the one not being a hypocrit. this is how i consistantly look at all of life. i am applying it evenly, though a lot dont like it.

my son can understand. it isnt me giving the bully a break. it isnt me saying what the bully is doing isnt wrong. he clearly knows and sees the bully as the asshole and the one with the problem. doesnt mean son and i dont look at it from all angles.

[mongo]

522. Ok speaking in general terms

The meme that says we are "responsible for our own lives", that we "chose our destinies", or however your favorite guru or pap-psychologist says it can be very powerful advice to some individuals seeking self-actualization. And like most things, there is a kernal of truth. There are certainly people in this world that put themselves into the same bad situations over and over for whatever reason.

But when you turn it around, the message gets perverted. It becomes:

"why should I help that homeless person. They made their bed, they should lie in it".
"She shouldn't have been an exotic dancer. She deserved what she got when she was raped".
"I'm wealthy because I am better than other people".
etc.

So, personally speaking where I would use that meme to help figure out my own circumstances in life, I would never apply it to another's experience.

Good to see you too. I've been quite busy lately and haven't been around as much. Not sure why I let myself get sucked into this thread today...

[nashville_brook]

54. are there another crimes where the victim bears responsibility?

fraud? lying before congress? murder?

what assumption is required of us to believe that rape is different than murder?

is it The Unconscious? does The Unconscious get a pass? sorry your honor, i had to murder that child because my unconscious mind told me to and i have no control over that.

this is an interesting question.

[seabeyond]

58. well you are making an assumption

that there arent other situations where i believe we allow ourselves, or have a part in allowing victimization. absolutely there are other crimes where we are a part of creating our own circumstances. i dont know that i really even believe in being a victim. any time i had someone do something to me, though i dont take responsibility for the action, like theft or rape, i do know where my part was, that may have allowed it. and that has been a lesson for the future. where i will less likely be a victim in the future. it doesnt make the wrong any less. but i can see a part i had in it.

[bettyellen]

69. you caused yourself to be robbed somehow? did you put evil theiving

thoughts into the head of the potential robber- "Pick me, rob me pleeeease!"
i'm so sorry you look at yourself this way.
me, i prefer to put all the guilt on the perps, where it belongs, instead of making excuses for them.

[seabeyond]

85. i am not taking responsibility for their crime

i dont know how to make that more clear. i thought i used the words. but seems people want to make y story work with their agenda. a person that steals made the choice to steal and will suffer the repercussions. the person that rapes, did wrong and unfortunately not enough pays the price, but they should. the person that murder, committed the act, made the choice

obviously you chose not to see what i am saying. so for me to try to re word it would do no good and would be a waste of my time

[bettyellen]

91. "theft or rape...i do know where my part was, that may have allowed it.."

i'm glad you think it doesn't make the crime any less... but you do seem to be extending blame to the victims here.
i can't say i agree in the least. i feel sorry that you have blamed yourself.

"we are a part of creating our own circumstances. i dont know that i really even believe in being a victim. any time i had someone do something to me, though i dont take responsibility for the action, like theft or rape, i do know where my part was, that may have allowed it. and that has been a lesson for the future. where i will less likely be a victim in the future. it doesnt make the wrong any less. but i can see a part i had in it."

[seabeyond]

104. dont feel sorry for me. you chose blame. i dont. you are experiecing

this as blame, i do not.

[bettyellen]

108. ok, just spare the rest of us from assuming they "allowed" rape or assault

or theft, because that's pretty darned insulting.

[seabeyond]

116. oh so you want me to shut up

because truly if you got it, it isnt offensive, but obviously you dont get it, so you are offended ergo i need to shut up. i dont think so

[bettyellen]

118. no, just stop projecting your own feelings of "having a part" in your own

assualt onto others. that's on you.
because yeah, that is offensive, and not just to me.
C ya
:hi:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

142. Is there a difference in "blaming" the victim

and understanding why it happened?

It seems to me that unfortunately, there are cretins out there who can't (or think they don't have to) control their urges. They deserve to be punished and taken out of circulation.

But there ARE reasons why your mother tells you not to do things. Because you are more likely to encounter these idiots than when you don't.

We can see the gray areas when we look at each individual situation; but the law is black and white and it should be.

[helderheid]

166. well said!

[nashville_brook]

193. social contract -- can people who are unable to control their urges

eligible to be citizens? a contract implies freewill. if we are all slaves to our id, then it's awful cruel to hold us to any social norm that might be vetoed by dark, inner states.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

207. I know some men who would agree

[femmedem]

219. One of the questions this raises

is to what degree are we willing to sacrifice our own liberty in exchange for what degree of safety?

We're all going to answer this question differently. But it's important, I think, not to demonize or blame people who choose to accept a higher degree of risk than most in exchange for a greater degree of freedom to go about their lives.

[Catrina]

101. Do you leave your money on the front lawn or do you keep it in a bank?

If not, why not?

[bettyellen]

130. are you saying seabeyond left her money on the lawn?

she was robbed and takes credit for her part in it, not i!
when i was robbed it was broad daylight, a block from my home. i guess i could have been carrying a gun to stop it, but it's illegal in nyc.
oh i know! we can blame my parents for not being wealthy enough to move to a safer neighborhood!
well, gee thanks, i knew somebody besides the perp should share responsibility!
:rofl:

[seabeyond]

134. we are talking about girls going into a frat house

and strippin for drunks. we arent talking someone breaking into house and raping us in a bed. that is the point of the post. the leave the money on the front lawn is equivalent to the walking into a frat house with a bunch of drunks. the walking in middle of day, being robbed, is equivalent to someone breaking in your house in the middle of night. i am talking about a specific event. now....... robbing, be it money on the lawn, or walking in middle of day, is a crime and should equally be punished.

rape at the frat house, or a man coming thru our window is a crime and shoudl equally be punished. i think you are purposely trying to not get what i am saying so you can truely be outraged. that...... isnt my fault. you talk about me projecting personal experience

[bettyellen]

138. you assume she knew it was 40 athletes?

you are making assumptions that bolster your blame the victim stance.
and when i was robbed, hoew do you know i didn't "tempt" somebody by accidentally flashing a couple of twenties at the corner store? so, it's equivelent only until you start dissecting the victims behaviour. i'm not the only one here who thinks that's a screwd up mindset.
look around. and there's no outrage here, just pity.

[LostinVA]

253. She thought it was 5 guys and a bachelor party

But, even if she knew it was 40+ guys -- so what???

[Catrina]

149. I asked a question, it had nothing to do with Seabeyond, actually! So,

I'll ask it again in a different way. Why do people feel they need to protect their money by not leaving on the front seat of their cars, eg? Could it be because they know that although in a perfect world no one should touch it, we don't LIVE in a perfect world?

Even banks aren't totally safe, they do get robbed, but it reduces the odds quite a bit when we take precautions, does it not? Why are people here against women taking precautions to diminish the possibility of them being brutally raped or attacked? Why do some people feel they need to promote the dangerous idea that women don't need to take such precautions? Is it that some people don't recognize the potential dangers?

To keep women acting like naive children because 'they shouldn't have to worry about being attacked' is not in the best interests of women, imo, and I wonder about those who promote this idea! Personally, as a woman, I will do all I can to avoid dangerous situations, and if that doesn't always work, I'll try to figure out what I can do in the future to be even more safe. As for criminals, their actions have nothing to do with mine. Crime is crime, regardless of what the victim does. It's for that very reason that I KNOW I have to be aware, alert and try not to make foolish decisions. Why is this so hard to understand?

[bettyellen]

162. seabeyond said the victim has "a part" and even entertains the idea that

there is no such thing as being a victim.

she also presumes to know this woman knew it was 40 plus athletes at a frat party that she was being sent to , so she's supposing the worst about the strippers judgement with no basis in fact- and so giving her a bigger role in "taking her part" in this occurence of rape.

if you look again, you'll see it was that that everybody took issue with, saying a person always takes part in their own victimhood.
that's a really unhealthy insulting mindset.

[seabeyond]

182. you just make up. no where do i type 40. i say a bunch

and bullshit to the rest of your post.

[bettyellen]

195. they are you words: having "a part" in your own rape.... god help you.

i couldn't make up horrible shit like that if you tried.

and you assumed she knowinly went to a work for big crowd of drunken athletes in a frat house.
so, where'd you see those details reported? is that what the agency told her, or did you make it up? i guess you did, since that wasn't in the news.
tks for painting a phony picture of the alleged victim! every little bit helps!

[seabeyond]

199. god help me?????

does god need to help me?????

[bettyellen]

210. you are spreading misinformation about another person so you can

more easily blame them, as you do to yourself for having a "part in" your own assault.
yeah, someone should help you with that, and i don;t mean the idiot that told you to "OWN IT".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

352. This blaming the victim mentality ignores the fact that the standards

for "asking for it" differ from culture to culture.

Rapists throughout the world use the excuse, "Dressed like that, she got me so turned on, I couldn't help myself."

In Saudi Arabia, a woman who showed her face would probably be blamed if she were raped, but in the Amazon jungle, both men and women go around totally naked routinely, and is rape any more or less common there?

That whole "she was asking for it" excuse is just a lame, self-serving excuse from narcissistic men who somehow believe that they have a right to sex and a right to dominate women.

[bettyellen]

200. u said "house full" and u said "had a part" in own rape. god help us all.

i couldn't make up BS like that, as you said it's yours. own it.

you said she KNEW she was going to a "frat house full" of "drunken" "athletes" ,
that's what the agency told her?
or, did you make all of that up?

yeah, i thought so.

[seabeyond]

204. so where do you get fourty???? look you dont

know shit about me. you want to go around being outraged cause you think i think it is ok for a female to be raped. play in your little horror picture you create for yourself. you really really want to believe your shit..... you are purposely misinterpreting what i say for your own game so you can be outraged and go around saying god help you.......go for it. live in the horror of it. god help me.....

[bettyellen]

205. you don't want to address the neg assumptions you put on this woman?

40 or houseful? hmmm, you think it splitting hairs on the assumptions you made matters that much?
how many more than 40 "fill" in a one bedroom, anyway?

[ms liberty]

208. This is an excellent point, Catrina, one all women should understand...

And one all women should practice in their lives.

I was lucky, my mother always had a vigilant attitude regarding her personal security, and she raised both my sister and me to practice it ourselves. It becomes a second sense, an instinctive security system that is always on. There is a bottom line : we all, especially women, have to be responsible for our own safety. We cannot blithely expect some sort of cone of protection to prevent us from crime of any sort.

You go to the mall, as you park you check the area. Anyone walking around, looking or acting weird? What about that guy in the next row who's watching you as you go down the row? Keep your car keys in your hand. Walk briskly, with your head up, with a sense of purpose. If it's late afternoon, and you'll be there after dark, park under the light pole. When you leave, loiter near the door until a couple of other people or groups of people are also leaving and going toward your area. Anyone standing around near your car? Have your keys in your hand. BE AWARE.

Sometimes, no matter how cautious and pro-active, things happen anyway. That doesn't mean it's our fault, it just means that life happened. The fickle finger of fate strikes. You do what you need to do to fix it, get justice or whatever needs to be done to remedy or resolve the situation. Then you move on with your life.

edited: spelling

This comment has no bearing on the subject of the OP; I am simply trying to emphasize the message I see in your post. Every woman needs to have that kind of awareness, that level of self-protection, because it could mean the difference between life and death, not just rape or robbery.

[LostinVA]

252. What does THAT mean?

Show your tits and ass and expect to get raped -- and expect to share part of the blame???

Apples and oranges, and you so know that.

[helderheid]

70. I'm too angry to respond.

[seabeyond]

86. ok

[helderheid]

109. I will raise my daughter letting her know that some men think certain

situations make it acceptable for them to attack her, but the problem is not my daughter's - it is that some men think certain situations make it acceptable for them to attack. It is NEVER the victim's fault.

[seabeyond]

117. and you are going to teach your daughter to be aware. ergo

teach her to be responsible for the situation she is in, possibly keeping herself out of harms way, because of the asshole males that feel it is acceptable for them to attack. you are going to make her aware.

bravo

and that is all i am saying

[helderheid]

119. But you cannot possibly mean that some girl who is raped by her

father has to take responsibility for her situation?

[seabeyond]

127. i am not even going to touch that one

i know what a woman activist you are. and i know you just do not get what i am saying. but it really is in the ultimate of empowering women. each one of us, idividually making us strong. i am not dissing a single woman

it is the way i see all of life. not just this type of a situation. it is the way i live, and what i believe. nad it has served me well. i believe we create our life with the words we use and choics we make. i do not believe we are powerless.

bringing in a child, depends on age and circumstance. but there are times my son talks about things that happen to him. and he is the victim. (i cannot tlak on the girl raped by father, cause i have no personal experience). my son little frame, glasses, intellectual, strong will and courages. 4th grade a bully cuts in line. all keep mouth shut. he stands to the bully. then he talks about being the victim. how he is pathetic. how he has no power. powerless. that is what a victim is. powerless. that is a horrible thing to feel, powerless. i wouldnt want to wish powerless on anyone. and personally i dont believe we are powerless.

so..

i tell him. what victim. what coward. (the boys pushed him, when he stood up to the kids and told him not to take cuts. and he fell on his butt. he said he felt like such a coward)

what coward i say. you dont like cheats and bullies. so you stood up. no other kids stood up., you did it for them all. (his choice, he is creating). my son had the choice to be quiet and not be in the situation. i tell him, that is not him, he will always stand up to the bully. that is who he is and would have nothing less. now coward. couragous.

in our conversation owning his part in this, he had the choice to be victim or be empowered. i wanted him to see that it always behooves us to chse empowerment.

this girl, i want her to feel empowerment. your daughter, i want her empowered. not powerless. none of them, do i want them powerless.

[helderheid]

131. Listen, you brought it up. You have to take account these circumstances.

Now here is a 5 year old girl whos drunk father molests her. Yes, she will have to be responsible on how she heals from the situation but you cannot tell me she wasn't cautious enough to avoid the situation.

Look, I get what you're saying but please hear me - we have a crisis in this culture that teaches our boys and men that certain situations warrent rape. THAT is the problem. I agree with you that so long as that is our culture, we do need to take precautions but the cultural issue of this being acceptable under any circumstances must be addressed.

[seabeyond]

137. then why did you pretend you didnt get it. of course you get it. but....

it is like i say, you dont want to say this part, because you are afraid that it is going to take away from the criminalization of rape. ergo, there is a certain amount of nontruth that we women are putting out there. and because of that, i assure you we are hurting our caUSE NOT HELPING IT. what if, we can say, yes this girl put herself into a horrible situation. and was raped. and these men need to go to jail. and these girls that are going to strip for frat boys better damn well take protection. isnt that shining the lite on our male preditors more, than saying, our girls should expect to be able to go into a frat house of a bunch of drunks and should expect to not get raped. instead we are saying. girls beware, be cautious, take care, casue there are a lot of pig males that are being fed so much crap in this society today, that so degrades wmen to a point where there is a free for all with us.

[helderheid]

141. I'm not afraid to say it - I've said it. Both need to be said. Why do you

think I "pretended" not to get it? Where did I do that? :shrug:

[nashville_brook]

157. public "responsibility" rests on the perp (good point)

as in, the perps must bear the responsibility of their crimes. they can't plead, the devil made me do it.

i think a lot of people get weirdly hung up on the use of the word 'responsibility.' there's no law against being a vixen. the law is against rape.

going deeper -- what sort of society do we want out of this?

does this STOP A RAPE?

[Cats Against Frist]

227. I won't buy that -- not for one minute

Sure, it's not the girl's fault that she got raped, because she happened to be there, stripping off her clothes for drunks. That said, I believe that anyone who provides a warm body to the sex industry hurts all women. Period.

[helderheid]

233. confused - what aren't you buying?

[Catrina]

112. I completely understood what you said and I agree. Would anyone

advise their daughters to walk naked down a dark alley at night because 'we have the right to do whatever we want and not expect to be assaulted?' and we're going to prove it?

Why do people lock their doors at night? Because they know that it's wrong to rob a house and the robbers will not do it if we leave the doors open? :sarcasm:

Why do people lock their cars when they leave them in parking lots? Is it because they are 'blaming themselves for being potential victims', or is it just common sense because we know that despite what's right or wrong, SOME PEOPLE don't care and will victimize those who don't use common sense?

Is it 'blaming the victim' when someone walks up to a lion and tries to pet it on the head, or is it common sense to say, after that person is attacked, 'you should have known better'?

If you don't want to be a victim, take precautions, isn't that the rule we apply to everything?

Why are some people so prejudiced against women that they don't expect them to use common sense in protecting themselves from assault? Do they really think woman in general are that dumb?

And why are they giving perpetrators the benefit of the doubt as to how they OUGHT to behave when we know full well how they might be expected to behave and take the proper precautions?

I don't have television, so I know nothing about this case ~ if there was a crime, it won't matter, nor should it, whether the victim didn't use common sense or not. The law is the law, and once it gets into the realm of legalities, if they took advantage of someone not locking their door, leaving their keys in the ignition, leaving their money on their own lawn, the perpetrators will pay the price, and hopefully the victim will learn to use more common sense in the future.

[seabeyond]

120. perfectly said. obviously i am a very poor communicator. but yes

i couldnt and didnt say it better. this is all i am saying

thank you

[lukasahero]

122. "If you don't want to be a victim, take precautions"

You can continue to delude yourself that taking precautions will protect you. I hope it does. It did not for me and many, many other women.

Old women. Pre-pubescent girls. Married women. Women on dates.

What precautions would you have them take? Don't trust the man you married? Don't trust your Uncle Ernie? Don't trust your neighbor to help and not hurt you?

Keep that burqa near - it's going to come in handy.

[Catrina]

136. We know well that even taking precautions won't protect everyone

but it does reduce the risk. Why not do that?

I'm sorry you think I'm deluding myself. I came as close as I ever want to to being raped, but was fortunate enough to 'get away'. I did learn something from that, and it hasn't happened since. Something my mother warned me not to do, ever, 'don't get into a car with a stranger' ~ I did, I nearly paid a heavy price, and I've never done it since. Sometimes we have to learn the hard way.

In this case, from what I'm reading here (I don't have tv, so I have no clue as to the details of the case) there was alcohol involved, and a woman who was in a situation where she was outnumbered. If I were her sister or friend, or mother, I would have advised her not to go there. Why? Because caution and prevention is the best cure wherever possible. Some situations can be fairly adequately predicted.

Does the fact that she might not have listened and gone anyway, diminish the crime if it is proven to be a crime? Of course not, but I fail to see where one thing has anything to do with the other.

Most women I know are pretty smart, they're not, as is being portrayed here, in need of being 'protected' after the fact. They are capable of making sensible decisions.

To be honest, I find the defense of women making decisions that can and do place them in danger on the basis that they 'should be able to' to be very insulting to women.

And I don't need any burqua btw, although if I knew I was going somewhere where it might protect me, believe me, I'd wear one. Just as soldiers wear armor, in certain situations. True, armor doesn't always protect them, but it increases the odds they will survive. Why do you not want to increase the odds for women?

[miss_american_pie]

145. I find the implication that women need

to curtail their activities because some men can't handle their liquor, or some men haven't learned what is appropriate behavior, to be offensive to both women and men.

Men are not uncontrollable animals.

Being female places women in danger, regardless of any individual decisions.

[Catrina]

160. I'm not following you at all! Do you never curtail any of your activiities

in order to be safe? Do you walk in front of moving trains because the train should stop until you get to the other side because YOU are in a hurry?

I find it extremely offensive and dangerous to women to mis-lead them into thinking that their right to do whatever they want should be enough for them to know about this 'perfect' world we live in!

Being female places women in no more danger than being male, if we consider all the danger there is in the world. Men and women both are victims of crime.

Who said men are uncontrollable animals btw?? Please show me where I said that. But there are criminals in the world, personally I try not to flush them out by going into situations where I am most likely to find them. I'm not in the business of using my safety to make a point. Being a woman doesn't make me stupid!

Personally, I have been very lucky with the men in my life, father, brother, husband friends. I could assume that all men are as wonderful as those in my personal life. But not being dumb, just because I'm a woman, I know better and tend to avoid situations where I might not be in the company of people who have my best interests as a woman, in mind.

I care enough about the women in my life not to tell them 'you know, as a woman you should be able to go to a frat party naked, with a bunch of drunk athletes and not expect it to get out of hand, so GO FOR IT'! I would probably be worried about someone I cared about and say so, at least. If the worst happened, I would support her fully and most likely be enraged at those who harmed her, wish she had listened, and hope that she would have learned that this was NOT a good idea for future reference.

[progressivebydesign]

185. "Being female places women in no more danger than being male"

Wrong right there. It DOES place women in more danger. Any woman I talk to HATES the fact that we are preyed upon, and we are. It's not about dancing for money, cuz those women usually have someone with them or a bodyguard type that accompanies them.. It's about going along in our daily business and getting attacked a for simply having a vagina and the bad luck to encounter a filthy criminal that has to do violence against a woman.. The women I know who were raped were: walking back to a dorm from class at a university. Jogging in broad daylight. Out on a date with someone considered they knew. Grabbed from the street outside of her middle school. Drugged and raped by a man who advertised an apartment to rent. You tell me how those situations are in ANY way high-risk for any other reason that THEY WERE FEMALE?? I fucking HATE that I cannot go and do what I want, even the most banal things, without the thought of my personal safety. I am no more safe walking out of the library at night than I am dancing at a frat party.

[Catrina]

223. I can give you an equally long list of men who have been brutally

victimized by criminals ~ so I stand by what I said. There are vicious criminals in this world and there always were and always will be. Both men and women have been victims of crime. While I don't have statistics, I wouldn't be surprised if in fact, more men than women are often the victims of crime.

Maybe where we differ is that I don't think one crime is more 'acceptable' than another. Nor do I know women, as you apparently do who feel that just because they are women they are automatically victims. Most women I know have the opposite reaction and in no way accept the 'victim' status, even some who have been crime victims. They refuse the 'victim' label. Some, otoh, seem to want to be seen as victims for some reason. To each their own. I know the possibility is always there that anyone of us, men and women, can become a victim of crime.

So, the only thing I can do about that, as a human being, is to take as many precautions as possible to minimize the possibility. If it happens, to make sure those responsible are brought to justice. And, further, to recognize that that justice may not always be forthcoming, but to refuse to allow criminals to turn me into a bitter person feeling always like a victim. I prefer not to give that kind of power to criminals, no matter what their crime.

[miss_american_pie]

202. Trains are inanimate objects

and cannot be compared to people.

For as long as society continues to tell women just don't go to certain places at certain times we will continue to send the message that women are responsible for being attacked.

And you know what, some women are stupid. Some lack common sense. Some are born with organic brain issues that will never allow them to make "smart" decisions. Rape should never happen to any woman. Period.

[Strong Atheist]

524. I understand your point.

As a guy, I curtail my activities. There are times/places that I avoid so I will be less likely to be mugged/shot/injured/killed. When I was younger and stupider/less experienced, I almost got myself into bad situations a few times. Now I look out for those types of times/places, and avoid them (most of the time).

That said, it is probably HARDER to avoid rape situations, as they can happen ANYWHERE. I see your point thought, some are under your control (like whether you chose to get drunk around strangers; not a good idea for either sex). I see both sides; rape can occur ANYWHERE ANYTIME, and thus is not completely controllable (just like I can be mugged/robbed ANYWHERE ANYTIME), but it is also possible to lower the odds by avoiding certain situations (like I do by avoiding known dangerous areas, especially at night). Both sides have good points in this argument.

[progressivebydesign]

181. Lukasahero is right! the idea that you dress or act in a way to get raped.

is total bullshit. Rape counselors will tell you that it's all about opportunity AND the criminals that take advantage of it!! I know of plenty of exotic dancers who have danced for large drunken parties and NEVER been gang-raped in a bathroom. The women I know of who have been raped where dressed in a average fashion, going about their daily business, or on a date with someone they felt was "reputable".

[jukes]

345. i'm not

i'm angry, but i can respond. exactly what do you think you are contributing here? all i sense is an intent to insult & incense; hence, disrupt.

[Imperialism Inc.]

246. I wouldn't waste my time being angry at sea.

Sea's opinion on just about everything under the sun is equally outrageous, full of shit and regressive in general. In fact, I doubt even the worst of the worst of republican voter could manage to be as regressive as sea. That has always led me to believe that their persona is just a put on. No one could be that much of a neanderthal naturally. Despite their protestations to the contrary, what on Earth could be the possible reason for bringing up "the point" about people being "responsible" for the situations they put themselves in, if not to imply that the person "had it coming"? There is none. That is precisely what is implied by such a statement and that was indeed the intent of it. But, like I said, I wouldn't worry about it, they are not someone that needs to be taken seriously.

[femmedem]

88. I understand what you're saying. n/t

[MissB]

92. Rape isn't about sex.

It is about violence.

To suggest that a woman has something to do with her rape is offensive on so many levels, seabeyond.

The person who raped her is responsible for his actions.

It isn't the way she dressed. Or where she was walking. She did not in any way "ask" for it.

[seabeyond]

107. i will say it again. the person that raped made that choice

he is the only one responsible for rape. i cannot say it more clearly or consistantly in every one of my post. she didnt chose rape. the man chose rape and is responsible and needs to be punished for his choice

no shit rape isnt about sex, it is about violence. control. again that has nothing to do with what i said. and i did not say she "ask" for it. soemthing else you put in your post, that is not in mine. i wont own that. you can own that. see what i am saying about owning something. it really is healthy. i will own mine. you can own yours. then i am not responsible for yours. jsut as that girl is not responsible for the rape.

[MissB]

115. Further down the thread, you say

"but. the female just have got to take responsibility for their part in it. a stripper has got to know the risk, even with a partner, to go into a room of drunk testosterone pumped 20 yr old males, getting them excited. that it was just two is amazing. should these women have the expectation of not having a male rape her. i dont know. i would think, being an experienced old woman, that the females would have the expectation of something like this happening'"

I'm having a helluva time reconciling your two statements.

[seabeyond]

132. i cant help. that would be ultimate on my mind walking into this place

i would be fearful that these men would rape me. that would be front and center in my mind. are you female? would that not be in your mind. going into a room with a bunch of drunks..... and strippin for them, with no male prtector. wouldnt that be forefront in your mind????

i mean really. that is all i would be thinking, as i was stripping. i would not in any way trust these men. am i off the mar here. why dont you understnad that????

[bettyellen]

133. she should have known it was 40 athletes, too?

there's a lot of projecting and 20/20 hindsight here.
but i see blaming the victim too.

[progressivebydesign]

187. the whole "owning" thing in therapy is bullshit.

I was married to a hideously aggressive man who took out his aggression through intense verbal and mental abuse. The first therapist I got him to go to with me did the whole "owning" it bullshit. The man actually told me that I had a part in the abuse because I "owned" the abuse he was hurling at me.. and that if I didn't belive deep down that what he was saying was true, then it wouldn't hurt me. He told us that I needed to own the abuse and figure out why it upset me so much, and what could I change in my life so that I wouldnt' be abused anymore.

The truth is NO ONE deserves an ounce of anything but compassion if they are brutally attacked, as this woman alleges. This personal responsiblity bullshit line that you've been pushing is worthy of another message board, not DU. In fact, I bet if anyone put on galoshes and went over to a right wing message board, they'd find similar views of how she had a hand in getting raped.

[seabeyond]

197. that is your view from your personal experiences. i have found that

it isnt bullshit at all. i guess we will have to differ. i guess this is what makes us uniquely different people. hey..... good of you to totally dismiss it with being a rw mentality though. big thumbs up. took care of me

and another assumption that i dont have total compassion for this girl in every sort of way. maybe that is why you dont get the whole owning thing. i guess you see that a person can seperate. like have total compassion and love for the pain this girl went thru in her experience, yet still be able to say own your part. it isnt blame, like people would like to interpret. it isnt judgement like people would like to interpret. it isnt dismissing the girl, or not loving the girl, or having empathy, feeling her pain or fear

but..... i bit you will totally dismiss those words, as if i didnt even say them, huh? because it doesnt fit with how you interpret what i am saying

[SoCalDem]

178. Hi, seabeyond.. I understand where you are coming from

On many discussions here, I have been "piled on" for saying that lapses in judgment that LEAD to an assault/rape/crime/whatever is NOT the same as "blaming the victim", but merely an acceptance that when we put ourselves in a dangerous situation, sometimes "things happen"..

If someone goes climbing in the mountains with sunny afternoon gear, and somehow manages to get lost, they are in real danger of freezing to death. While I feel terrible about their plight, I cannot help but wonder why they put themselves in that situation..

or

when someone repeatedly drives a car that requires them to pump the brakes furiously to stop..eventually they will fail and a crash will result..maybe they did not have the money to fix the brakes, and maybe the crash was an "accident", but the little voice in their head (and the car) gave them warnings beforehand. Does it make me a callous person to wonder if they were "partly responsible"?

or

what about a teen aged (or not) girl/woman who gets really drunk, and then engages in sex at a party? By now everyone should know that alcohol lessens inhibitions (that's why they MAKE the stuff). The act of drinking is not "asking for it", BUT the fact that she's often with people she does not know, and she's NOT in full control of her own faculties, makes the POSSIBILITY of rape a whole lot more likely/possible.



There are degrees of rape too.

A six year old whose Daddy/Uncle/cousin/babysitter/family friend puts his hand over her mouth while she sleeps in her own bed is one kind.. I think we all agree on that one

A teenager who finally gets a date with the "cool guy" , and he won't accept "NO!" for an answer...or perhaps he "changes" the "NO!" into maybe and then finally Okay..NO was the first response, but we all know young guys rarely take the first NO as gospel..

A 20-something girl at a party who gets really wasted, and either passes out or ends up in a dangerous situation in a strange place with a stranger.. If she were sober, would she "be able to get away"?


We ALL do things that "could have been very bad", but for whatever reason, that voice in us all warned us just in time, or someone else intervened at just the right moment.. but we cannot COUNT on it.

There are creepy guys in this world, and some of them WILL engage in sex with drunk women they do not know. That's just a fact of life..and when you go to a party you might not know which ones are the creeps, until you are drunk and alone with them..

[nashville_brook]

188. more kinds of rape

prison rape
rape as torture
rape as hate crime
rape as terrorism

[SoCalDem]

191. Very true.. Rape is about POWER...n/t

:(

[seabeyond]

192. i am really concerned about our daughters. and this thread of women

have made me even more concerned about our daughters. i am seeing so much going wrong for our young girls and boys too.... and i am seeing a correlation with this thread, and these attitudes, along with so much more that is going on in our culture. to have to ignore facts, because we think it will minimize the crime, is in fact not giving a truth. and that never works. there is much more in this. i see the same thing when we women talk about men and custody, or male registered pedophiles, or physical abuse in marriage......as if the woman is always always always the innocent. totally not a part of the situation, just a happen chance that she is in any given situation. what powerless and weak and inept people we are.

i dont think we are serving our daughters well. and i think we have an example of it in the lower grades in school, for the people that have children in these schools. further, i know it isnt serving our boys well.

thank you for at least a little reality check here.

i am glad i particpated in this thread because really it is connecting things, that i have been seeing over time. but i am concerned. and maybe a person doesnt agree with my perspective, but for some of the women on this thread to actually feel they can change my words to say i dont blame a rapist, or i blame this girl for her rape, shame on yawl. i have been raped. i have young girls in my life that i care about with all my heart, and their journey in life, and i work hard to empower them, educate them, let them be strong. to make assumptions like these are just worthless.

[SoCalDem]

196. As have I..

as a child and again as a drunk teenager.. I had no daughters, but I drilled it into my sons' heads that no matter HOW drunk a girl is, do NOT... EVER ... even think that it's "ok because she's drunk"..

It's really a crapshoot..In college I went to many a wild party and nothing happened, but then there's always that ONE TIME when you end up with a creep.:(

Girls don;t realize that there are some guys who deliberately try to get girls to drink a lot "to loosen them up".. Sadly, it works lots of times.. Does it make the girl to "blame" for her own rape..not really..HE'S the one who DID it, but if she was not sober enough to even KNOW it was happening or to actively try to prevent it, she has to admit that she put herself into the situation and has to own her part of it so it does not happen again. It's a self-preservation mechanism.

:hug: to both of us :hi:

[seabeyond]

201. i drill into my boys head...... never never never hit a girl

ever. for no reason. but...... over the years (son now in 5th and 2nd) i have watched girls hit, kick, bite, pinch ears..... all over the place. i told one girl to quit pinching sons ears. he is nto allowed to touch a girl. she gets s huge smile and says..... power, i have the power. i was about in shock. this was 3rd grade.

but our innocent girls.....

the teachers in the schools never go after the girls. and the boys watch.

if a boy does dare to say something to a teacher, then it is oh, she is a girl. and it is dismissed. if a boy does dare to push a girl off him, then he is disciplined hard and fast and harsh.

the boys are seeing this.

and the moms are not teaching the girls there responsibility in this boys are not to hit girls......shit

but this is just an example, and at a very young age, one of the little things. but it is everywhere.

my boys ask, why do i say dont hit girls., they are going around abusing boys all over the plac, and me in my lame way say, ya, but when the boys are older and bigger nad stronger than the girl, they use this to control the female. that is why we are so adament at this age.

anyway.... i am getting out of this thread. gonna think about this a bit more, wink...

thanks

the best i think for all.... i am respectful to my boys, they respect me. father and i are good, kind and respectful to each other, teaching my boys how male and female interact....... this is what they will look for as they grow up, and how they will be.

[jukes]

353. i don't think you like females much,

(fail to) see beyond. hope you got your jollies tonight.

[seabeyond]

362. ya, i was telling my husband,talking about this thread and the accusations

people haev made on this thread. per this thread i hate women, per all hte men in my life i hate men. you see there are a lot of things that males need ot own also. and i dare to say them out loud too. to the male. and they get pissed. and tell me how much i hate them. and becasue i feel we woman have things to address, and i dare to say it out loud, i hate women.

this for me seems to be an easy way to dismiss any kind of thought or indepth problem solving with what is happening today between the male vs female society we are living in. i figure if we women can figure out what we are doing, and help each other to figure it out, and if men can do the same, and the males that understand help their brothers out, then maybe we wont have the hate, and the attacking, and raping and emotional pain we cause each other. and maybe we can be on a road to healing. because bottomline, the very essence of our problems today, really are male vs female, thru religions all around the world. (in my view)

so.... you can simply dismiss me as hating women, ergo myself..... or maybe you will actually sit in what i just posted and maybe see i am not about hate.

[jukes]

373. women

can hate women. there's no logic to your assertion.

[lostnfound]

419. Seabeyond

I have always found your perspectives to be full of balance and very often insightful into the paradoxes of life.

The human rush to judgment so often cuts off our ability to heal, our ability to relate, our ability to connect with the deeper aspects of ourselves. I notice how often you seem to be operating right on the cusp of two seemingly opposing ideas and holding them both without letting go..it's a great mind that can do that, frankly.

Peace.

[seabeyond]

427. thank you lostnfound

i appreciate you post. more than you know

merge the two in love, and no longer a battle. then there truly is peace.

[jukes]

459. i don't think you hate me!

i don't think it wd be possible for you to know me!

you'd be hard pressed to prove that any religions are going to save/salve male/female relationships; all the dominant 1s are patristic.

but maybe you should discuss that w/ your husband!

i think that rather than dismiss your "logic", i'll merely dismiss you! bye, bye!

[helderheid]

215. Sounds like you and I had similar life experiences

Good on you with your boys. :hug:

[SoCalDem]

217. We are not alone

sadly..

Most women I have known have had similar things happen..

[femmedem]

81. Here's my attempt at an answer.

1. I read that this was the first time she danced a bachelor party. She was inexperienced, she had been told that there would be far fewer men present, and she thought having another dancer with her would be adequate protection. This turns out to have been an error in judgment, but not a crime and not, IMHO, any sort of active role in her victimization

2. Where do you draw the line with this? Is a woman participating in her own victimization if she walks down a street by herself? At noon? At 3 a.m.? On some streets but not others? If she isn't wearing a bra? If she doesn't lock her doors? If she's tipsy? If she is addicted to a legal or illegal drug? If she's a sex worker?

3. Did I participate in my own victimization (rape) when I
a. walked home at 11:00 p.m. from college?
b. accepted a ride, as I was walking, from a pregnant woman with a two-year old in the car with her
c. because she said I'd be safer in her car than walking downtown
d. even though her brother was in the backseat
e. and the two of them had skin a different color than my own
f. and I didn't physically struggle after he pulled out a knife?

Some people thought so, including the policeman who testified at the grand jury hearing that he didn't believe me. That's why I felt moved to answer your question.

Bad decisions are not the same as creating one's own victimization. Bad decisions leave one vulnerable, but only victimizers create victims.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

153. You covered it

and really the "blame" and the "cause" are apples and oranges.

In a perfect world all men would have the sense and control and emotional maturity and sobriety to refrain from forcing women to have sex. It has always been this way and I would assume it always will be this way. We should work with our daughters to empower them to make good decisions. But sometimes it is going to happen, whether you are walking to your car, or doing lap dances. The latter makes it more probable because of the nature of sexuality, but it does not make it excusable and the law makes that clear.

What is fascinating to me is how the fundamentalist Islamic cultures has taken the polar opposite approach in preventing rape. They apparently assume men have no control and they cover every inch of female flesh. We, on the other hand, insist that we as women have the right to display, and even "offer" (via lap dances, pole dances, etc.) our genitalia and be secure that we will not be forced into intercourse by a stronger male human.

I have a Muslim friend who insists that Muslim women have more "freedom" than western women. I wonder who is right? And how are we ever going to work through issues like this in the world?

But in this country, it is rape, it is the law.

[femmedem]

218. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I have also talked with Muslim men who believed that Muslim women were more respected than Judeo Christian women because of the prohibition on revealing their bodies. But I would say it's a matter of self-determination: if it's the men in any culture who are determing what's decent and what's indecent, and setting penalties for women who violate men's standards, then that isn't my definition of freedom for women. It seems, from my Western perspective, more like controlling women's sexuality because they're afraid that women are going to get their pleasure from someone other than them. (I bump into this at home with my mostly wonderful hubbie, who sometimes gets upset if he can make out the outline of my nipples through my clothes!)

One small thing I might disagree with you about:

"...whether you are walking to your car, or doing lap dances. The latter makes it more probable because of the nature of sexuality..."

Maybe it isn't the nature of sexuality, but a fear of women's sexuality, and hatred of women who defy their culture's sexual taboos, that makes sex workers more vulnerable to rape, or at least less likely to be believed when they press charges. In other words, it's more like a hate crime than anything to do with sexuality.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

249. I was going to write I completely agree with your last sentence

but then I thought for a moment and wondered whether the sex worker evokes a power thing and this feeds the libido in some men. Or you could be right that insecure males are afraid of female sexualty. We are the mysterious dark place and all. Freaks some of them out.

[femmedem]

276. deleted. dupe. sorry. n/t

[femmedem]

277. I agree with both of our statements! Sometimes they're afraid,

sometimes they're aroused, and sometimes both simultaneously. And sometimes none of the above. :-)

[fishwax]

222. and a nice attempt it was

Bad decisions are not the same as creating one's own victimization. Bad decisions leave one vulnerable, but only victimizers create victims.

Seems well said. I'm sorry for your experience, but thank you for sharing your insight and perspective.

And welcome to DU, femmedem :hi:

[femmedem]

224. Thanks for the welcome

and the nice reply to my post. Yours is probably the last welcome I get, because if I keep posting at this rate, I'll have 1000+ posts in a couple of weeks!

[blondeatlast]

Beautifully said. nt

[bloom]

258. Of course the obvious problem

is that anything that results in "blaming the victim" lets the rapist off the hook.

Just like there was someone on one of these threads who was arguing that it was the college woman's "fault" for going into a frat house to visit her boyfriend. It was supposedly her "fault" that the frat boys raped her because everyone is supposed to know that frat boys will rape any woman who goes into frat houses.

That is such complete and utter bullshit.

[progressivebydesign]

176. NO ONE takes a part in their own victimization!

Where does that logic stop? When it's hot outside and I wear shorts and a tank top, and I asking for a sexual attack? If I choose to walk alone at night in my town, am I asking for it? If I go out on a date with someone I met and he rapes me when we stop by his house to get a jacket, did I ask for it by going there? Am I contributing to my own victimization?

[bettyellen]

203. that's some really dumb self-help bullshit right there.

and this poster goes on to make judgements, what crimes people have brought upon themselves and which they haven't.
and they seriously don't see how fucked up that is.
it's mindblowing, isn;t it?

[Hobarticus]

19. So it's her fault. Is that what you're saying?

"Men are so enthralled by women's wiles that they can't control themselves, and women themselves are to blame when things turn ugly."

Nice. This kind of mentality demeans both men and women, and it harkens back to the dark ages.

[nashville_brook]

27. it's very 'modern' in a freudian sense -- unconscious is uncontrollable

most "contemporary" psychologists, while aware of freud's contribution, regard it is a relic. it's totally pre-prozac... pre-therapy... pre-recovery. we trade on the assumption that people arre RESPONSIBLE for their behavior.

[Hobarticus]

37. My id may be ragin' but my brain is working just fine...

And no man needs an excuse for his behavior. This is a case of a failure of an individual man, not of our psyche as men.

[nashville_brook]

167. somewhere there's a grad student mapping the social psychology of this

there's lots of social psych happening, but it's not the 'nature of man.'

i think it's social psych aspect that people are really responding to. on so many levels. there's the sociology of the schools. there's the sociology of class. there's even the sociology of talking about sex that applies to us folk participating in this discussion. it's an orgy of sociology.

[benburch]

22. Oh my! How can you condone rape in this fashion?

Because that is what you are doing; Giving aid and comfort to rapists.

Hideous.

Beyond hideous.

Why do you hate women so?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Username. Gimme the username. I want to know it.

PM me if you prefer, but I want to know.

[lukasahero]

24. And what do men expect when she does it?

We hear over and over again how great porn and stripping is. How wonderful it is for a woman to be so "sex positive". That is until, of course, a porn star or stripper gets raped then we hear "what was she thinking?"

Well, maybe she was thinking that the people who commend her for her embracing her own sexuality actually meant what they said?

[nashville_brook]

32. do all men 'expect' this? or some? what does it say about the men?

what does it say about the nature of public and private?

in what ways are women punished for their sexuality?

in what ways might the religious right be liking what you're laying down?

[lukasahero]

Huh? What am I "laying down"?

Don't know what you think you read, but I was not dissing strippers. I was dissing the idiots who think seeing a woman strip is great but then turn around and suggest that she deserves whatever she gets while doing so.

We see it here every day - women are heralded for wearing sexy clothing - unless they are Jenna/Barbara Bush. Then they are sluts and tramps. A stripper/porn star is a wonderful thing - until she accuses a man of raping her. Then she's a gold-digging slut.

[ThomCat]

39. Excellent point. (with added rant)

This whole idea that some women are "asking for it" or are doing things to "encourage this kind of thing" is just one more way people force women to be asexual.

Any woman with a sex life of any kind, or any woman who makes a living with sexuality (which is a whole lot of women, given that sex sells everything) are vulnerable. Any one of them could get raped and a whole lot of nutcases out there will blame the victim for causing the rape.

If we truly want everyone to own their own sexuality, and if we really truly believe that everyone has a right to earn a living even if it means being a stripper to do it, then we need to kill this idea that they are inviting or asking for rape.

We all own computers. Are we asking to be robbed by owning such expensive toys?

Many of us own laptops. Are we provoking robbery by carrying our toys around and flaunting our wealth?

Why does rape get treated differently from any other crime? Why do so many people in this day and age still treat rape as if the victim must have been guilty?

Why do so many people still hate sex and promote puritanical judgements against the victims?

[katty]

135. great points..psych101: mixed messages "be openly sexy,

appear & act enticing", (*unspoken 'moral' message) *BUT accept the fact that YOU will always be at risk and "bear the risk" (for your appearance&behavior) to be violated because a man/men cannot (actually, will not) be responsible for their behavior once you actually DO what the bulk of society, advertising, media and the male gender tacitly agree (more often promote) 'makes you a desirable female'. Generally, adolescent girls begin to want to be accepted by boys-as boys begin to notice girls, etc. But the message of 'be desirable'(coming from everywhere) is skewed to girls-they begin to carry this 'burden' at an early age, and so it goes, on & on....
A real problem is that this so called open, permissive culture is unwilling to candidly, without moral judgement calls, inform girls that desirability is a double-edged sword and that 'the girl' more often than not will be victimized (by law as well) for doing what was expected of her (to look/act like a desirable female-naturally to extreme acting out)starting at adolescence and continues to be promoted, more than ever within society.

[lostnfound]

418. message of "be desirable"

good God, that is the truth! That is the message that is practically screamed at us practically from birth! I'll admit I've fully absorbed it into my psyche and never even recognized it as "a message".

Wow.

[nashville_brook]

78. you are critquing the double standard.

sorry -- i read it differently the first time.

[lukasahero]

100. No worries

Yeah - that was my intent. I am terribly impressed with what you are trying to do here. We should keep this kicked and keep people thinking. It is our own attitudes that allow this to happen - in all directions.

[nashville_brook]

234. thanks -- it got scary there for a while, but the cool thing is that

as you look thru the thread, there's a lot of acknoweldged misunderstanding. people didn't dig in all the way, everytime. that's got to be postive. :)

[bloom]

262. That is how

women are set up to lose. It's the patriarchal trap.

And there are also statistics that show that watching porn encourages to people to excuse rape.

[miss_american_pie]

28. She expects to get paid

for allowing men to look at her.

Just like women who pose for Playboy and all those other magazines. Just like actresses who pose for publicity shots.

If men can't control themselves while looking at strippers, perhaps they should stop financially supporting that industry.

[lukasahero]

30. BRAVO!

Thank you - this is the perfect response.

[MamaBear]

47. Agreed.

Serial shoplifters should know enough to stay out of department stores! Well said.

K&R, by the way.

[Orrex]

35. You're kidding, right?

You're equating a man's sexual urge with a pathological chemical addiction. Unless you can show convincing evidence to the contrary, the dancer is not a sex-drug, and the patron is not a sex-addict.

If you still need to cling to an analogy, then you might consider this one: a wealthy individual with a wallet full of cash walks unarmed down a street in an area famed for violent robberies. His subsequent beating and robbery are, you seem to argue, a direct result of his choice to tantalize his attackers by showing off his easily-stolen money and engaging in provocative behavior.

Well, the analogy is pretty solid, but so what? The criminal is still a criminal and the victim is still the victim. It's that simple.

If a rape has occurred as alleged in the Duke case, then the woman is a victim and the attackers are criminals. Her choice of vocation and her attire at the time are as irrelevant to the attack as mother's shoe size.

[Catrina]

128. Absolutely true! And the thief will be punished when caught. But what

about the the wealthy individual? How many people actually do what the individual in your analogy did? And why doesn't everyone do it? And what does the crime have to do with people simply using common sense because they understand there are criminal out there? Are you saying that we should not use common sense and exercise our right to 'walk into the lion's den'?

Personally, I care enough about the people I love to warn them, especially my women friends of potential danger, as I have been warned by those who care about me. That doesn't equate to 'blaming the victime' does it? To me it equates to being on the alert and understanding there are bad people out there who will harm you if you are not careful.

What's wrong with exercising common sense and avoiding these situations? In a perfect world, I can see it. But we know this is not a perfect world, don't we?

[Orrex]

144. An imperfect world, to be sure

Nothing is wrong with common sense, except that ten different people will give you at least ten definitions of it.

Clearly it is possible to put oneself into a situation of lesser or greater relative danger. But unless we make it a crime to engage in a behavior, then that behavior is not a crime no matter how distasteful or provocative others may find it.

What responsibility does the woman bear in this situation, if events unfolded exactly as she described them? She is responsible for fulfilling a professional commitment.

That's all.

Humans, even drunken and testosterone-soaked college-age males, are not mindless animals, so analogies to lions' dens or dangerous forces of nature are simply distractions.

[juajen]

49. No means no, in every sense of the word.

Will we then castigate women for wearing skirts too tight or short, smiling crookedly or suggestively, being in a place she shouldn't be in, etc. Do men really want to go back to the stone age to get their jollies?

Economically speaking, because of a glass ceiling that has thus far been too difficult to crack, women make a great deal less money than men. In most cases, erotica, in all its forms, is a way for women to make more money. They are earning a living in a dangerous way, but their choices are small. Oftentimes, their vocation is a result of mistreatment by pimps or male family members. Many support a drug habit, some are paying for college, and some are supporting children in the only way they know how.

"Boys will be boys" is not an excuse for males taking advantage of women or other "boys". "Control yourself" should be the new mantra for the male of the species going into the 21st Century. I guess I'm dreaming.

[Catrina]

165. No does not always mean no! Maybe to the woman saying it, it does

but to not point out to women, that they will encounter men to whom 'no' means nothing, is placing them in danger and not being realistic, imo. This is why mothers warn their daughters about such things. Should they stop issueing such warnings based on the premise that now that we have established the fact that 'no means no', nothing bad will happen?

We are talking about crime. Everyone is at risk of encountering criminals, both men and women. To not warn children, both boys and girls of the known dangers they might encounter, is dereliction of duty imo. This is not, and never will be a perfect world. We all have the right not to be robbed, mugged, murdered, cheated etc. but most of know the possibility is there and we take precautions to avoid circumstances that are dangerous.

I am really astonished at the notion that only when it comes to women being in potentially dangerous situations, is there such passion to assert that they have the right not be threatened.

How about victims of robbery? Don't they also have the right 'not to be robbed' and shouldn't 'no mean no' when it comes to this crime also?

[readmoreoften]

51. So what about women who act provocatively and don't get paid.

You just justified rape for, basically, any women. You are exactly AND SPECIFICALLY the reason why rape continues. Yes. YOU. You give people justification. You're the person who makes women ashamed to report attacks on them. You. I'm sure you think you're a nice person. But nice people don't justify rape on a certain category of workers. I wish I believed in hell in the afterlife because you make life hell on earth for people. I wish people like you would go become republicans. It's easier to spot the enemy.

In fact, I know republicans who would never say such things.

Consider yourself on ignore.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. I look in the mirror and see...

a person with more questions than answers. I am reminded of the Taliban's insistence on covering their women head to toe because men simply cannot control their lust if they see a wrist, ankle or cheekbone.

What if they're right?

(oh boy..I think I can safely said I have not killed this thread!)

[nashville_brook]

17. questions are good -- we don't need to make value judgements

on our questions. lets just let them happen.

[Kailassa]

421. The proof that they are not right is that these women get raped too.

We can be careful of our safety and voluntarily circumscribe our behaviours forever, but it does not stop females being raped.

If every girl at birth is genetically mutilated, welded into a chastity belt and locked into a dungeon, rapists will still find ways to rape them.

Every person who suggests a woman should have to choose her behaviour and clothing on the basis of: "what will make me likely to get raped," is infringing on the rights of all women.

There is no way to prevent rape by inhibiting female behaviour, so once you start down that path more and more rights get given up, until we land in the position of some women, locked into our homes, wearing purdah, forbidden to walk around outside without a man, forbidden to have a job or drive a car, completely dependent on men in every way. And we never know the rape statistics for these women, because when they are raped, who can they tell?

It's the "blame the victim" mentality that lead to Iraqi women released from Al Graib being murdered by their families for the fact that American soldiers had raped them.

I catch trains on my own at night. I go for walks on my own at night. The same logic that states the stripper "owned" some responsibility for being raped also says that if I'm raped outside at night it will be partly my own fault, for "leaving my money on my front lawn." However the last time a man attempted to rape me, it was after I got home. Even then, although I managed to fight him off, people found a way to blame me. I was seriously injured fighting him, and was told by mutual "friends" that it was my own fault I was injured, it wouldn't have hurt me to just let him have sex if he'd wanted it that badly.

But it was not about sex, he believed if he could force sex onto me he'd have me under his control long-term.

I've been raped before. I believed this man would kill me if I didn't let him do it, and he very nearly did, but I preferred to die than to be raped again. And I had a much easier time recovering from broken bones, and living with the things that never healed, than I would have had recovering from the terrible mental damage that rape does a girl. That's how bad rape is. It's soul murder.

[benburch]

16. As a lifelong sexworker's rights activist...

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[nashville_brook]

18. as a fan of everything you do...

i can say i am totally not worthy.

[ThomCat]

43. There's a need for good activists.

Keep organizing and fighting! :toast:

[nashville_brook]

46. it's all i can do to write

and get out of bed some days.

[Jersey Devil]

436. So, as a "sexworker's rights activist"

what do you have to say about the employer who sent these women out to work without bouncers? Isn't that standard industry practice?

[benburch]

570. No, bouncers are not standard at all.

Usually it is the workers themselves who provide bouncers, often in the form of a boyfriend.

[BlooInBloo]

20. Back when my body was introduced to hormones, my dad put it to me as....

... "Son, imagine the hottest girl in school coming in completely naked and sits right next to you. Does that give you the right to touch her?"

Put to me thus bluntly, it clarified just how irrelevant a girl's state of dress (or not - lol) is to rape.

[benburch]

25. Perfect. nt

[helderheid]

168. I like your dad. I will have the same talk with my son. Thanks!

[BlooInBloo]

171. I'm kinda partial to him myself. :)

Nothing wrong with sharing effective techniques...

:toast:

[rucky]

23. Now, apply those questions to a robbery instead of a rape...

will you answer them the same way?

[nashville_brook]

34. that iPod was seducing me... it was ASKING to be taken...

[stepnw1f]

284. Lol

That was a good one.

[cally]

29. I know I'm biased because I've read

many studies on how hard it is for women to get the authorities attention when raped. Which is why I rarely make up my mind on these high profile rape cases. I still am appalled at the general attitude to allow women to be demeaned in the press because she had the gall to accuse the powerful of rape. It pisses me off.

Thanks for your post.

[lukasahero]

33. Thank NB,

This is a great post. And absolutely necessary.

[nashville_brook]

40. thanks! i've had zero to say about anything lately...

things seem so remote and uncontrollable. this story had an embedded ''code" of themes of responsibility and caring. we need to talk about this. we have a lot people returning from war who might be a little confused about power and sexuality. hell -- you don't have to be a vet to have sexual ptsd.

[Stinky The Clown]

36. Thank you for this post

It was overdue.

That ad is incredible.

Your points are excellent.

[nashville_brook]

66. i feel like i just woke up from a long winter's nap

haven't posted in a while.

this issue has it all for the game theorist.

[Kailassa]

515. Are you using game theory to analyze the event,

the place of rape in society, or the posts about it?

[Radio_Guy]

38. I agree 100%

And I will take it a step further. The fact that the victim is black and the accused are white and it happened at Duke University is precisely why it happened. Those rich, white boys feel they can do to blacka whatever they want to and get away with it. They figured their actions would have no consequences. Hopefully they will realize the hard way that they are mistaken.

[nashville_brook]

71. do you perceive a new knee-jerk ?

like, to be utterly 'objective' and 'reasonable' we have pretend we don't have an opinion. like saying, 'the facts aren't in' is the new anti-"affirmative action?"

i'm not sure what i'm getting at here -- have our brains totally fallen out? has no one ever been on an elite southern campus? no one here ever been the band playing these fucking gigs?

[nashville_brook]

72. aha!

there's a master/slave theme here for sure. so many ways to explore that theme.

(i'm just brainstorming with this whole thread -- i'm really trying to keep open to unexpected ways to look at this.)

[ms liberty]

238. Speaking for myself...

I am being objective and reasonable because I don't know enough facts to have an opinion in this case for sure, one way or the other. I am just undecided, therefore I am maintaining a deliberately open mind.
There have been other cases that I have had an opinion before the trial, such as the Kobe Bryant case (he raped her and got away with it), and the OJ case (he's a killer and he got away with it); both of those opinions are based upon a lot of background information about the accused, as well as facts I learned about the cases.

I do hope you're not characterizing this as being a problem because it's "an elite southern campus" as if part of the problem is that it's in the south. Duke may be in the south, but most of the students are not southerners, and anyone who knows anything about Duke is aware of that.
And yes, I have been on an elite southern campus, numerous times...and it's just like the real world. Some people are assholes, and some people aren't; it doesn't always have to do with elitism, or wealth. Sometimes it's just the person; as a species we have an incredible capacity for dysfunctional beliefs and behavior. A poor guy with a really small penis and a sense of inferiority can be just as big an ass as a spoiled frat boy.

I wanted to answer your OP, but unfortunately I became so interested in reading the thread that I've run out of time. Maybe I can catch up to it later, because your OP poses interesting questions which I'd like to respond to; some of the posts here have been really good.

[femmedem]

231. It was a hate crime on more than one level.

A hate crime against women because of their sexuality: witness the e-mail about hiring another stripper and murdering/skinning her.

It was a hate crime against blacks: witness the "Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt" taunt.

I don't want to demonize the whole university, though. I don't know anything about Duke.

[seabeyond]

41. female here. interesting post. and no still doesn't warrant rape

the stripper duke story. i read that and thought, go into a room to make a bunch of guys hard and then say no....

does that warrant rape. no

going to tysons room at two in the morning with him using a stupid excuse. doesn't that warrant rape, no...

me at a party of older people. young and naive and drunk. have a guy follow me into a bathroom and rape me. no

or like a poster said, prettiest girl walks up to him naked, and sits next to him..... no

but. the female just have got to take responsibility for their part in it. a stripper has got to know the risk, even with a partner, to go into a room of drunk testosterone pumped 20 yr old males, getting them excited. that it was just two is amazing. should these women have the expectation of not having a male rape her. i dont know. i would think, being an experienced old woman, that the females would have the expectation of something like this happening'

doesn't make it right. but... they made the choice to take this risk.

anyway. just my opinion. these guys still need to feel a repercussion for their action. the girl already has felt the repercussion for her poor choice

[benburch]

79. I have to strongly disagree.

Hundreds of thousands of horny drunken men are entertained by strippers on a nightly basis in the USA, and a rape like this makes the news because it so SO unusual.

No responsibility devolves on the victim whatsoever in this. She had every expectation that she would excite the guys, and they would hoot and hollar, and that she would dress, go home, and leave them to their masturbatory dreams or their girlfriends.

If this woman was taking a risk, then you are taking one every time you put on a sexy outfit and go out for the evening. Got my point?

[seabeyond]

90. well

look stripping in a bar with bouncers there to protect them is one thing. to go to a frat house would make me wary. i would be afraid. just would. but then i wouldnt trust a bunch of drunk men, if i were to be getting naked with them ootin and hollarin. i would want some male with me to protect me.

now comparing a strip bar and a frat party i think is a huge difference

to then try to make me dressing sex to a dance at a frat bar,..... even a bigger difference

and no.... at that .... still does not validate rape.

benburch..... where did i say in my post rape was ok. or that these guys were not responsible for their act

[MamaBear]

124. For what it's worth

And I'm not sure it makes a difference, but according to a caller on Al Sharpton's show on Sunday morning, she was told she would be entertaining at a bachelor's party, and that there would be five or six guys attending.

In that she would be with another dancer, I think that's a very different scene than a frat party with forty young men present.

Not that any of this makes what happens okay. They hired her to dance; they paid her to dance. She wasn't obligated to give them anything else.

[ThomCat]

151. Your fear doesn't make her guilty of her rape.

She should be able to make a (legal) living whether you think it's a good job or not. She should be able to safely do that job, get paid, and go home. No guy has the right to rape her because of her job. Period.

I can't tell you how strongly I disgree with your post.

[seabeyond]

156. i dont know what you are disagreeing on

i never said she didnt have the right, nor that she deserved to be raped. we are in total agreement.

[ieoeja]

175. benburch never said that

seabeyond: "i would think, being an experienced old woman, that the females would have the expectation of something like this happening".

benburch: "Hundreds of thousands of horny drunken men are entertained by strippers on a nightly basis in the USA, and a rape like this makes the news because it so SO unusual."

seabeyond: "where did i say in my post rape was ok. or that these guys were not responsible for their act"

He never claimed you did. You said they should have expected something like this. He pointed out reasons they should not.

Nor did he qualify this as a reference to a strip bar. So maybe it's only tens of thousands instead of hundreds that are entertained at private parties each night. But his point that this makes the news because it IS unusual is still valid.

The fact they were there in a professional capacity may have actually imbued a false sense of security in the women. They were hired through an agency which meant there was a record of their being there. Also, this was not a frat house. Even as a pizza delivery boy in college I was told to stay away from frat houses. But I hauled many a pizza into a house full of rowdy, drunken partiers. And don't give me, "but these were athletes which is almost as bad". They were lacrosse players! I didn't even know MEN played lacrosse. I certainly would have never associated lacrosse players with this sort of behaviour.

[bettyellen]

213. experienced she guesses, i thought this was her fist gig? the assumptions

made again and again are just appalling.
the agency warned her it was a frat house, full of drunken athletes? BS.

[benburch]

247. You didn't.

But you said that the sexworker should take some of the responsibility, which I oppose strenuously.

And it is NOT just at bars that strippers work daily and without being raped!

Stripper shows are the most common sort of outcall sexwork service, and in a major metropolitan area like Chicago, there are likely about a hundred such shows happening on any given Saturday night. Thousands of (mostly) drunken guys in private residences being entertained by strippers, and nothing like a rape happens! And nothing like a rape should EVER happen. A stripper should never have to fear rape. And neither should a prostitute! Ever.

[MissB]

95. Utter bullshit.

Why the hell are you blaming the victim? She went there to make money, not be raped.

[seabeyond]

113. in a house full of drunks. of course she didnt go there to be raped

but why didnt she think there was a possibility that a bunch of asshole, drunk athletes just might rape them. >??????

would have been on my radar

is that blaming her for the rape. no. she had every right NOT to be raped. the males made the decision to rape. and they should be punished for the rape. and next she wants to just make money strippin for a bunch of drunk males, maybe she will take someone to protect her.

dont we have an expectation from our youth to take resposnibility in their safety abd not blindly trust. i know i teach my boys not to just trust. my boys should expect the cops to not kick the shit out of them. or be able to go thru school without being bullied. but..... the reality is.... and i teach them the reality

people act like, if we have any expectation of this girl, then we are taking away from the responsibility of the rapist, and that just isnt true.

[bettyellen]

125. what group of sober men hire strippers? and she KNEW they were a team?

or that is was 40 guys, and not a dozen?
is this a wild guess of yours because you'd like to say she should have knownr?

[benburch]

259. self delete

...

[ThomCat]

154. Nonsense!

Nothing in her job is an invitation or permission for rape. Nothing a stripper does excuses treating her with violence.

I don't care if she was walking down the street naked, that still doesn't make her guilty of causing rape. The guys who raped her bear 100% of the blame.

She could be the world's biggest tease, and that's both entertaining and legal. The guys who raped her still bear 100% of the blame.

[bettyellen]

225. WTF?? the rape is HER REPERCUSSION?????

for her poor choice?
and when, as you say, should she expect rape?

[LostinVA]

285. Seriously -- quit feeding this poster

It's like gasoline on a fire -- go have a mojito, bettyellen, and think of soft, fluffy kittens, sandy beaches, a winning Powerball ticket....

[benburch]

349. As long as it is MY winning powerball ticket!

(But I promise to hold a big party!)

[LostinVA]

433. Yay!

[Kailassa]

422. What you are not getting, seabeyond, is that this is not a sex-crime.

This is nothing to do with the guys getting hard-ons and her being sexy.

This is a hate-crime; it's about turning a black female into a victim for sport.

You can see from the email that the next attack was going to be a premeditated one, so perhaps this one was too, and criminals often use the same modus operandi in repeat crimes.

These rapists wanted a victim, (to call them men would be an insult to the men post here,) and they were likely to find a way to get one, whether this woman went to their party or not. I hope one day people will realise that her profession was completely irrelevant to the story. Men do not rape because they have hard-ons, they rape because they enjoy inflicting pain, fear and degradation.

And certain people here are busily adding to that degradation.

[TahitiNut]

48. We're an increasingly dysfunctional (psychologically codependent) society

We abdicate responsibility for our behavior by blaming another - and obsessively seek 'control' while surrendering control over the one thing we actually can control: our own actions.

Classical codependency is engaging in unhealthy behavior and shifting the blame to another's unhealthy behavior. "Why do you drink?" "Because she nags me." "Why do you nag him?" "Because he drinks." Classic interlock - mutually destructive.

We murder people and then blame them for our actions. We're doing it with our military in Iraq, murdering thousands of innocents, and doing it in our penal system, murdering innocents as well as guilty - essentially copying their behavior and claiming some 'higher ground.'

Rape is rape and absolutely no behavior of the victim can be blamed for the behavior of the rapist.

But our 'leaders' would have us believe that we have an excuse for behaving badly - playing God and wallowing in vengeance. After all, we're using the most powerful military in the world to terrorize millions of people due solely to the acts of nineteen people! That's just fucking insane!

"Why are you bombing them?" "Because they terrorize people." "Why do you terorize people?" "Because they bomb us."

It's a race to bottom of the moral and ethical sewer. It's the behavior of the weak and cowardly - people who fail to assume the moral responisbilities of Free People.

[lukasahero]

55. So many smart DUers, so little time

Thoughtful and thought-provoking. Thank you.

[marions ghost]

interesting

yes there is less taking responsibility for any wrongdoing of any kind. Look at Tom Delay, look at Enron, look at our government officials who "take advantage" simply because they can get away with it.

[nashville_brook]

74. uncle same wants YOU to be CO-dependent!

healthy people resist manipulation. a healthy country doesn't stand for it's leaders to screw us like they have. are we asking for it by being weaker?

[marions ghost]

147. "are we asking for it?"

Like brutish people think that rape victims "ask for it"-- you mean? Am I interpreting correctly?

Well, to me the country does act like victims of spouse abuse (which can include rape). I think it can be said that we--liberals- have adopted a downtrodden victim mentality after years of abuse by "leaders" and authority figures. As we all know this allows victimization to continue. It becomes a pattern.

Maybe even the Republicans at the lower end of the socio-economic scale who drank the kool-aid felt that they were heroically saving the country in voting for Boosh--ie. aligning with their interpretation of manly and paternal strength. (Repugs at the higher end of the economic scale were just protecting their bottom line--they have no such delusions about "saving" anything--except their own money).

Rapist mentality--just another day in Washington? I agree like you--there is a connection. Male liberals ought to get it.

[genie_weenie]

52. If your post makes people examine their own pre-conceived

ideas, then well-done and Excellent post. But, what else can I say other than shouldn't we say the Men are Not guilty until proved so by the State? Or are you agitating for a change in our legal system?

I read your questions. Her profession doesn't matter to me, race shouldn't matter, it doesn't matter what she did post-accusation, I won't guess at her motivation the mind and emotions are odd things, obviously there can be rape without DNA evidence, and I think the power structure is against the accused, but societal views are against the accuser.

Do you think this case has been handled properly by Nifong and the State?

Should there be limits on what a Defense attorney can do in protecting a client? Has the attorney overstepped any boundaries in this case?

Has the media helped or hurt this case country wide?

Is it better that a guilty man go free or not?

Should an innocent man (and there are 43 of them in this case) put up with being under the scrutiny of the system do to the nature of this offense?

How should the other 43 Men feel about what they've gone through? Aren't they innocent? And do you really think the cancellation of their season is the only thing that has been trotted out about these Men?

[nashville_brook]

63. relation of ideas vs matters of fact

i'd rather stick to attitudes about women/sex/violence/rape/responsibilty as a relation-of-idea kind of thing. when you get in matters-of-fact, you start 'trying the case' and taking sides.

this isn't a sporting match. it's creating a society worth living in. you don't have to pick a team. liberate yourself from that urge. what is the right and caring thing? what promotes society?

[genie_weenie]

73. Okay

Sorry, I missed the point on this being a sociology thought experiment. The only team I pick is the individual (how ironic). The individual is the measure of all things. That's why I have little faith in the State. Does incarceration ever bring justice for the crime committed, whatever the crime may be?

I cringe at the American exploitation of sex of both men and women. IMO, Sports stars and strippers are looked at in similar ways. Use them for their biological "talents".

But, I don't know how to foster good relations between people. Shared culture has been the standard approach throughout history, whether that culture be ethnic, religion or belief system.

I'm really stumped. I don't know how to make this a better society. I'm stuck on my thought of respect for the individual. After that I don't know where to go...

hmmm....

[Nederland]

56. Honest answers

Does it make a difference to you that the accuser is an exotic dancer?

No

Does it make a difference to you that she is black and the accused are white? How so?

No

Does it make a difference to you that she returned to finish the gig? Why might she have done that?

Yes. Why she went back confuses me.

Do you think she has a motivation for reporting a crime? Or for not-reporting a crime?

I'm open to both possibilities.

Does it matter that she is economically less advantaged than the accused? Is she a gold-digger?

No, and I don't know.

What about the DNA? Can there be a rape without a positive, one-to-one DNA match?

Yes.

What about the power structure in Raleigh/Durham? How do the cards stack? Against accuser. Or accused?

I'd say about even. I suspect there are power forces lining up on both sides of the issue, just like there is here at DU.

[femmedem]

296. Of course I don't know for sure why she went back, but

I can think of three possibilities. First, she was afraid of losing her job with the agency if they reported back that she didn't do the show. Second, whoever talked her into staying reassured her convincingly that things would be okay. Third, she wasn't prepared to think the unthinkable: that it would turn out as badly as it appears to have.

[helderheid]

59. EXCELLENT

[MamaBear]

61. I'm thinking this way...

If she were told by her agency that she was going into a crowd of young men and would be expected to be sexually available to them, any or all of them, on their terms, with or without violence, would she have accepted the gig?

I'm thinking she would not have accepted that job on those conditions.

Thanks for posting this. This is not easy stuff to work though, but I think it's important that we all do.

[nashville_brook]

93. one theme that recurs is 'responsibility' -- we should add 'caring'

i think it's proper that a community would care what sort of businesses are being liscensed. there should be rules or there should be no more strippers for the frat parties. that sounds glib -- and it's only b/c the caffeine is wearing off.

would we be better or worse in a societly without private dancers.
if you want to allow this business to go on your community, shouldn't it be scrutinzed like any other place of employment. shut it down if it can't operate safely.

i'm all for dancing girls. i'm all for burlesque in it's many spendid forms. personally, i'd rather live in a world where there is sexual freedom.

it's the sex = violence thing that is most asking to be fixed.

[MamaBear]

140. let's add "honesty"

This is such a stretch for me, because I'm really not into the whole "exotic dancer" thing ... whether the dancers are male or female. I'm not adverse to other people having some fun, as long as they don't hurt each other in the process.

So yes, if men want to watch women and if that makes them feel more alive, then let's let that happen. But if we care about each other as a society, then we need (I think) to have some rules in place. Looking = okay. Touching = not okay. Those are the rules; that way attractive young women can dance just for you, and you are free to enjoy the show.

And if an adult person wanted to hire another adult person for sex, why not? I think that should be legal, but again, let's care enough about each other to set some rules. You can have sex with each other, but you can't hurt each other. And you both have to pass muster as far as STDs are concerned. And use protection.

And where there are disputes, there have to be places where people can go to get them resolved.

And if you see somebody hurting somebody else, you have a responsibility to say so, so the person being hurt can get some justice.

Is this off topic? If so, I apologize. I grew up in such a repressive community and climate, so I do have to work out what I want for myself and what I think I should be denied to other people. In the end, I guess I would like to see a society where people could choose.

[porphyrian]

67. Rape is never OK.

Neither is falsely accusing someone of rape. Without having all the evidence available to the jury in this case, we are all just speculating as to which of these has occurred.

[Lerkfish]

77. I have trouble believing two women would falsely accuse 40 men

. I could maybe see if it was one on one, he said, she said.
But with that many witnesses, why would the victim lie, knowing it would be 40 he saids against her one she said?

sorry, I don't think a false report is logical in this situation. IMHO, of course.

[ProfessorGAC]

89. I'm Highly Suspicious Of The Prosecutor

Maybe it's because i'm from northern Illinois, and we've seen FAR too many cases of prosecutors pursuing cases with marginal evidence, only to turn out that they KNOWINGLY convicted someone who didn't do it.

In every one of those cases, a crime had, indeed, been committed. (Most of these were murders, but one was a rape case.) But, the person who was convicted by overzealous, and unethical prosecutors was completely innocent.

So, from this distance (8 or 9 hundred miles away), i will view the prosecutor's motives and actions with a jaundiced eye.
The Professor

[nashville_brook]

126. in illinois, do overzealous prosecutors prey on under-represented defense?

is that how they score? i don't understand law, at all! i don't even watch tv, so i have no way to know.

[ProfessorGAC]

129. That's One Of The Ways, Yes

In other cases, they actually lied about what they knew or didn't know. In the most infamous case, they KNEW two guys did not rape and kill a little girl, because they did know who did it. The guy who did it admitted it, but wouldn't admit it under oath unless they took the death penalty off the table.

They wouldn't do that, so they railroaded two innocent guys so they could polish their "law & order" reputation.

So, my eye is highly jaundiced, as i said.
The Professor

[lastliberalintexas]

139. Overzealous prosecutors do that all the time, in every state

in this country. Prosecutors are political animals, and do everything they can to up their conviction rates for the next election cycle. Prosecutors withhold exculpatory evidence, use the resources of the state to drown the defense in paperwork/experts and take advantage of the weak public defender system we have in this country all the time. That is why the burden of proof and persuasion ALWAYS rests with the prosecution in any criminal case, and that burden of proof requires the state to prove its case beyond all reasonable doubt.

There are far too many people on this site willing to give the prosecutors a pass simply because of the issues involved in this particular case. But I doubt very seriously that those same people would be as willing to side with the prosecution if it was an African American man accused of murder and the physical evidence was as weak as that in the Duke case thus far. The constitutional guarantees of due process are required for all defendants, even those who happen to be wealthy white men accused of rape.



No, that doesn't excuse the blame the victim chorus, either. All I am saying is that we should be mindful of the prosecution's motives and the rights of the accused in every case, regardless of the egregious nature of the offense claimed. Indeed, it is often in the most hideous of cases and in defense of the most odious of people that the constitutional guarantees of due process are secured for the rest of us.

[bloom]

266. I know of too many prosecutors

who are chickenshits - who don't like to try rape cases - even with good evidence - because they might lose.

[porphyrian]

150. I don't know which it is, I don't have all the evidence.

I'm not picking sides without it. I'm just saying that neither rape nor false accusations of rape are OK.

[Lerkfish]

159. My opinion is that to raise the spectre of "false accusation" is the same

as picking a side. It's presuming the guilt of the victim before all evidence is in.
I think the best course of action is to assume the crime has occurred as alleged until such a time as the charges are proven false. To first assume false charges, especially in a rape case, is the whole problem in why many victims do not come forward.

If you are truly a wait and see person, then wait and see before you even bring up false accusation. All we know now is that there have been charges, indictments and arrests. Nothing about what we know now gives even one iota of just reason to suspect a false report.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

170. on the side of an actual rape, there is charges, indictments and arrests

on the side of false accusations, there is.....??

Beyond people just WANTING to think the accusation is false, I see nothing empirical to suggest that.

I don't view them as equally weighted at this point.

no, I don't know you at all. I'm learning though.

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

177. pray tell, and what do you think my mind is made up to be?

I've expressed skepticism this is a false report. I base that on the circumstances and the percentage of false reports that ever make it this far in the system, 2%.

I'm saying I'm more inclined to believe this is an actual rape than a false report.
I'm saying that in my opinion, even bringing up the idea of a false report, AT THIS POINT, is choosing a side.

If this is what you think my mind is made up to be, then you're correct.

however, to echo your sentiments, you don't know me, either. To assume I'm close minded on this issue is a value judgment you made of me.

I'll allow that my value judgement of you might be incorrect. Are able to do the same?

tangentially, I've had flamouts with 3 separate DU members over the last two days, is it something in the water?
:)

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

190. you're jumping to outrageous and unfounded conclusions.

no need to discuss this with you further.

[porphyrian]

194. Project much? - n/t

[nashville_brook]

206. i wish i could grab posts and reply to both --

i don't think you guys are disagreeing. it's a walk-off like in zoolander. that's why is came to loggerheads. you can't give wedgies here.

in terms of the OP -- trying our damn best not to 'try the case' -- what can we agree on? this is a story about how cultural disparity separating people. it's toxic. what can we say about this that brings it into the light and away from the heat?

lerkfish holds that it is unlikely someone would falsely accuse of rape.
porphyrian is agnostic on the accusation and is defending their perception of the victim.

either way the structure of the discussion has taken on the vibe of a sporting event. one side will prevail. the 'teams' have essential natures imbued in their character just like a sporting event. but how is this different from a sporting event? as political animals, are there any other ways we can interact with this issue -- other than 'to the winner go the spoils"? flipping that around -- what GOOD does that do anyone?

much better see this like a ballet than a game. there's a narrative structure.

(i just offer this as a means to open up the knot -- brook)

[porphyrian]

236. Alright, I'll try.

Ruining the life of an innocent is never OK, whether it's done by rape, the false accusation thereof or any other method.

Blaming the victim is likewise wrong.

Everyone deserves a fair trial. As it stands, our legal system is not fair - there is evidence of sexist, racist and classist bias. The recent trend of trial-by-media has not improved this situation.

How's that?

[nashville_brook]

244. there's a principle of 'caring' and 'compassion' behind both "sides"

that's the most subversive part for progressives on this. we find ourselves disagreeing for all the "right" reasons.

'caring' about the people on the other of end of the news is totally civilizing. the media has (in the past) had a structural bias for producing these stories as a Superbowl event. it's two teams facing off! well, that's all fine and dandy for a 5-minute segment, but the rest of us out here in reality land have to live with the world this discourse creates.

trial-by-media is... well... i don't know what to say. i believe that some of our culture's most important literature was court drama (plato). we can't seem to get enough of the courtroom metaphor in our narratives. is that all bad? is it bad to follow 'the law' with the same energy people follow sports? i think there's something about two sides presenting reasoned argument and the enlightenment ideal that justice will prevail that hooks us emotionally. which makes us emotionally attached to reason. go figure. :)

[porphyrian]

265. Trial-By-Media

If we, via the media, were actually privvy to all of the evidence of a case, it wouldn't be as bad as it is now. If the media was more interested in presenting the truth rather than whatever it takes to hook more viewers longer, it wouldn't be as bad as it is now. If the media weren't so easily used as a political tool, it wouldn't be as bad as it is now. But this is how it is.

The media is no more interested in a trial than the increase in viewership, thus advertising revenue, it brings. They are just as likely to pay an "expert" to say something controversial about the case, no matter how absurd, thus distracting from the case and legal reality. If viewers are aware that this is as much theater as the latest Survivor, then it's just entertainment. However, the fact that people still parrot propagandist media soundbites suggests otherwise.

It's great that people are interested in our legal system. Hopefully, it's encouraging a more diverse turnout for jury duty. I fear, however, that people are too quick to try cases from their sofas based solely on what the media provides, and that isn't fair to anyone in the courtroom.

[nashville_brook]

294. i've never had the attention span for television

i have friends who relate entirely thru shared television 'experience.' i feel like a total alien sometimes. some things strike me as completely odd, that other people take for granted -- like knowing about food dehydrators and what Hannity said last night.

'trying people in the media' is one of those 'things' that makes my brain seize. how do we 'try' anyone in the media, when OJ Simpson is a free man and Michael Jackson is still a father? we can blow hot and cold until the end of time, and no matter what WE say, no one is ging to 'BE TRIED." a TRIAL is a legal affair. we don't get to vote like on American Idol.

but what if we did?

[porphyrian]

305. True, we don't pass sentence, but we pass judgement.

Two days into the OJ trial, people "knew" he did it, or he didn't do it, based solely on commentary during an over-hyped car chase and a media chasing viewership. Even the "televised" trial didn't present the public with all of the evidence. The trend has only gotten worse. People are quick to judge guilt or innocence based on sixty seconds of voiced-over video footage put together half an hour before, fact checking be damned (after all, they can easily issue a retraction later).

It's behavior contrary to the idea that we are innocent until proven guilty, and it's fostered in part by an irresponsible corporate media that sold it's conscience for ratings about the time reagan started deregulating it.

[LostinVA]

287. The ER SANE Nurse's exam states the woman was raped

So, a rape was committed.

on edit: IF she did misidentify some of the rapists, making an honest mistake is not the same as a false accusation.

[porphyrian]

295. Oh, you're on the jury.

I wasn't aware that you had access to all of the evidence surrounding the case, and that you are in the position to pass judgement before the trial starts.

:eyes:

[nashville_brook]

332. be nice. i'm watching you.

:)

she's working from the definition put forth by the ER nurse -- that the accuser had injuries consistent with rape. a JURY has the job of assigning the crime to a particular person or persons. totally different thing.

[porphyrian]

368. :P - n/t

[LostinVA]

434. Thanks!

[porphyrian]

399. Thanks, censorship does much to advance this discussion. - n/t

[porphyrian]

397. Thanks, censorship does much to advance this discussion. - n/t

[porphyrian]

394. Duplicate. - n/t

[porphyrian]

396. Thanks, censorship does much to advance this discussion. - n/t

[LostinVA]

286. Excellent point, excellent post

[Lerkfish]

451. thanks. its how I really feel: in rape cases there is an apparent need

for some to jump immediately into the "false accusation" mode with nothing to support that.
I don't see that happening with other crimes.

[Lerkfish]

76. no means no, period, but I'm wondering at the omission of

the responsibility of whoever ran the strip service. The boys are responsible, ultimately, but what kind of person sends two women into a house full of athletes with no protection? I mean a bouncer of some sort.

There's no way two people can stand against 43 if things get out of hand.

Further, I've always been disgusted by cases like these that not even one man stood up and said "no, I will not allow you to abuse this person" and removed them from the situation.

[nashville_brook]

82. there's some rumors about rank-breaking.

that the DA has a Libby.

[Lerkfish]

84. well, that's fine NOW. I mean BEFORE they were raped.

that would be the time to be a hero. actually, hell with hero, it would be the time to be a human being.

[nashville_brook]

111. omg -- that's funny

that's how blind I'VE become in this story. yikes!

[Caoimhe]

99. It happens all over the country every day

bachelor parties, dorm parties, coming of age parties... some people think it's appropriate male bonding and entertainment. I think it's disgusting, myself. I have no desire to attend a Chippendales show or rent a male stripper either. Guess I'm old fashioned?

[LostinVA]

289. The agency thought it was a bachelor party of five men

They were lied to.

[Lerkfish]

311. thanks. then it would appear those who lied set up this situation.

[LostinVA]

424. That's what I think

[derby378]

87. Uh, you could have put a "not-workplace-friendly" warning up there...

Let's face it. It's a great PSA, but a little too much for many offices.

[nashville_brook]

97. that didn't cross my mind -- i am so sorry.

frack.

[derby378]

114. No problem

:hi:

[marions ghost]

94. ...In response to your question

"Do you think she has a motivation for reporting a crime? Or for not reporting a crime?"

I think we can eliminate the need to say "I do not know" before every single comment or opinion we give. Of course we do not know. Many important facts of the case are not known. We are speculating. OK.

Probably everyone can think of reasons why she might report the crime (even the far-fetched one that being raped under these circumstances might be a good way to make some money), but I wonder about the reasons why she might NOT want to report the crime:

1. Occupation as 'Exotic' Dancer -- does she think this would not be used against her?

2. Serious arrest and conviction of her own in 2002 -- would that not make her hesitate?

3. Bad Publicity -- friends and family might disapprove (the classic)?

4. Huge financial gap between accuser and accused -- does she not realize the disadvantage?

5. Black vs white -- no doubt she realizes the disadvantage?

6. Testimony that she appeared to be drunk -- and this would NOT affect credibility?

------------------------

Have I missed any?

The fact that there are several GOOD reasons why she would NOT report the crime make me wonder why indeed, she did.

You have to wonder whether her willingness to press charges indicates anything about her confidence that she IS in a place where her case might go forward, ie. that she does have some degree of confidence in the system protecting her, that she has the solid support of her university, the black community of Durham, AND a large part of the white community (liberals or at least fair-minded people) in the area? Did these factors come together to make her overcome what so MANY rape victims report--a fear of coming forward, fear of being labelled with "false charges??"

The fact that she even REPORTED it is interesting to me, given the facts that we know. Am I crazy to think it might be even more convincing evidence that she thinks she has a case, and she is in fact, seeking justice? (Again speculation...I Do Not Know).

[nashville_brook]

110. did these factors 'conspire...' -- if so, mad props to her support system

but i would be careful of how the language of 'conspiracy' might be operating.

[marions ghost]

123. I was hoping

someone might address the point I made, rather than the semantics. I will try to eliminate the offending perhaps un PC usage of the word 'conspire' from my vocabulary since it seems to trigger unintended meanings.

What about the point? That there are so many reasons why coming forward would be negative or difficult that in a sense it adds some degree of validity to her story? Unless she's a masochist or off-balance mentally which doesn't appear to be the case thus far.

[nashville_brook]

148. understanding your point kinda involved that semantic thingy

i wasn't aware there was a pc-stance on the usage of that word either -- :) -- been nursing this thread a while and i'm trying to keep everything at a level where it makes sense to discuss and we don't fall into taking sides or 'lawyering.' then people will get all mad about accusing the men of being guilty before the trial.

it's a very good point. someone also posted info on percentages of rape accusations being false -- it's around 2 percent. very low -- for exactly the reason you state.

i really do think there's mad props to her community, tho. i know i don't have a support system that would sustain in such trying times.

[marions ghost]

158. no harm done

props to you for trying to referee what might have even been a locked thread by now. Congratulations on taking the subject on and keeping it civil, nb.

As someone who would prefer to see rape crimes actually prosecuted (instead of unreported), it seems to me you won't slow down rapists and encourage reporting unless the laws and the DA's have teeth, no matter WHO is accused. Hardball is the only thing a rapist really understands. Therapy for all, later.

But to the question I'm getting at, and you seem to confirm--

DOES the fact that she seems to have a whole LOTTA people behind her give her the confidence to pursue this despite all the odds (let's face it, there are some big obstacles in her case, as I listed). What part does perception about community support play in a victim's willingness to go through this?

Yes--mad props to her community, black and white. I want to think this says that times are a changin'--I want to see it as a positive sign. Right, we should all be so lucky to have such community support behind us in ANY accusation we might make against a perpetrator.

[nashville_brook]

180. i'm totally on board with your observation

and i'll take it one further. here another thing that gives me brainlock --

the talk about "lynching the lacrosse team" as stereotypcial rapists? since when are rich white guys victimized by overzealous DAs? are prisons full of rich white guys wrongly accused of rape? where is this meme coming from?

[bloom]

271. "community support "

I think that does help and make it more likely she would be able to put up with the defense attorney's attacks.

Then you have (to make up for that):

"In addition, high-powered attorney Bill Bennett, who represented Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones case, has been hired to try to polish the public image of the players, Regan says."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/13/earlyshow/main1495346.shtml

______________

I think this case is being pursued because there is more hard physical evidence than for a lot of rape cases. I think that there are probably many cases of sexual assault on the Duke campus (as well as most campuses) that never go anywhere. If this case makes some people on campus (or off) think that maybe they won't get away with rape - then that is a good thing.

[Caoimhe]

96. Someone posted the other day that only 2% of reported

rapes are false claims. We know how many rapes go unreported. I just don't see what someone gets out of having their sex history and vaginal juices smeared out in the open for public consumption. (ok poor choice of words, but seriously.. what would she have for an incentive?) Why do we make 2% into such a huge thing? 2% of women lie about being raped, that means 98% of the time the rape really happened. How do we get to this 50/50 he said/she said number, which excuses a lot of rapists- doesn't it? Odds are pretty good that any case you hear about in the news is valid, or it just wouldn't get that far.

[nashville_brook]

103. the odds really are amazing... and it makes sense when you stop and think

what would anyone rather go through? forced rape or a racially-charged rape trial in a small southern town? the odds of living thru the first are much better than the second. honestly.

[LostinVA]

291. Durham's actually a good-sized city

And is part of RTP/The Triangle, which is a very big Metro area.

Just an FYI.

[Celebration]

98. You forgot this question

Does it make a difference that she has a prior record?

Well, she stole a car in 2002 and tried to run over a police officer. That is not a good start when judging her credibility. Sorry--and this has nothing to do with her occupation, class or race. Possibly I would believe her tale anyway, but more evidence would be required than just her version of things, and picking people out of a bunch of pictures.

Would it matter that she identified people from pictures?

Heck yes. There are all sorts of misidentifications done that way.

[Caoimhe]

102. I don't care if she stole a bigscreen TV the same day she was raped

if she was raped, she was raped. Even people with "loose morals" can be raped.

[Celebration]

105. In part, I agree

But it certainly goes to the credibility of her testimony. If I were a juror, I would need corroboration of her account when she has a criminal record. I have no idea what the evidence is outside of her own testimony.

And it would depend on the way that she identified her attackers whether I would trust that AT ALL. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously fallible. Remember all it takes is a "reasonable doubt" for a not guilty verdict.

[KoKo]

106. Maybe we lose sight of the fact that there are "abusers" who will abuse

whether it's a "stripper" hired as part of some "rite of spring" prove your manliness ritual or a woman just jogging in a park. Whether it's their bestfriend's sister who might just be alone one night, whether it's a relative, a friend or a stranger.

Rape is a violation of another's human "space." It's power over the weak.
The person who rapes once will probably exhibit the power in other ways and it won't be the last time.

The whole LaCrosse team didn't rape her...but the whole Lacrosse team enjoyed the titilation. Why? Why is there a need to hire a dancer at a beer fest. Isn't there enough to see just on Cable that these "rites" could maybe become part of the past?

At some point there's a "gang mentality" involved. But only those who have the inclination to violence will act it out. Others will look on as voyeurs, and a few will be shamed and refuse to look. Occasionally someone will speak out.

[nashville_brook]

121. great points

i think the 'gang' mentality is woven into this story from the very beginning. one of the men arrested today is also facing charges in DC for gay-bashing.

when i was in high school and college, you couldn't get me far enough away from jock culture. i'm skittish like that. vacant aggression makes me nervous.

[lumberjack_jeff]

146. Or maybe examine our attitudes of equality, legal protection and justice

When the initial story was reported, the cry was "String 'em up!" "Rich white boys are all rapists! See, I told you so!". Those who suggested that that attitude constitutes an unjust lynching were dismissed as a bunch of woman-haters.

When subsequent information revealed that perhaps the initial reaction was premature, the new reaction was "Hold on, we haven't seen anything that proves these rich white boys are innocent", "It's stickily lies! The information is coming from the defense!".

It isn't incumbent upon the defendants to prove their innocence. It is incumbent on the DA to prove guilt.

What I see in the mirror is a reflection of someone who hasn't substituted the passions of group identity for a rational pursuit of justice. If the lacrosse players can be proven guilty they should get an appropriate punishment. If it can be proven that the dancer fabricated a story, she should get an appropriate punishment.

Neither outcome should be used to generalize on the merits of future cases.

And yes, there can be a rape "without a positive one-to-one DNA match", but if the victim can't identify a rapist, it's irresponsible to lock someone up for it when the retrieved DNA belongs to someone else.

Unless locking up any 'ol rich white boy makes people feel equally good.

[lastliberalintexas]

155. It is funny that people (ie, liberals) who are normally so skeptical

of prosecutors and normally arguing in favor of the constitutional guarantees of due process are some of the loudest members of the pitchfork mob in this case. And that kind of thinking makes me cringe, knowing what I know of the criminal justice system in this country- regardless of the type of crime involved.

[Celebration]

163. We don't know the evidence

We can only hope that the jury gets this right. Surely there will be a change of venue (I would think). I would not give a whole lot of weight to the sworn testimony of a car thief that tried to run over a police officer. I find it odd that the Rainbow Coalition is paying her tuition, even if there is no conviction in the case.

I would love for some solid evidence to emerge from all this--one way or another. I have heard the defense lawyers say that there are time dated pictures of her with bruises, etc. before she came into the house. We'll see. If the DNA doesn't match the Duke students, is there DNA there that doesn't match hers?

None of this means that I am against a rape conviction due to her race or occupation. But without knowing any evidence than what has been discussed in the media, I am rather skeptical.

[nashville_brook]

173. 'the Rainbow Coalition is paying her tuition..." --- really? link?

[Celebration]

292. lots of links

Do a Google News search of "jesse jackson rape tuition" and take your pick.

[Lisa0825]

462. Good points.

"I have heard the defense lawyers say that there are time dated pictures of her with bruises, etc. before she came into the house. We'll see. If the DNA doesn't match the Duke students, is there DNA there that doesn't match hers?"

I had been wondering the same things. I don't care one bit that she's a stripper, or what race she is. I do wonder about the DNA, and the possibility of her already having had bruises.

Rape is an extremely emotional topic, but we can't just "throw the book at" someone to make ourselves feel better. If the evidence isn't enough, it isn't enough. Now, there very well may be enough evidence, but I don't think anyone should be slammed for being skeptical, because we don't have all the facts.

We should have as much capacity for believing in "innocent until proven guilty" when the crime is a murder, as when it is a rape. I'd hate to see the victim deprived of proper justice for what happened to her, but I'd be equally upset if someone were railroaded without a fair trial. I think it is not only OK but APPROPRIATE to be skeptical, not just of this case but of all kinds of cases.

[marions ghost]

229. maybe because

rape is so prevalent, often goes unreported and unprosecuted, and so many people reading this have actually BEEN victims of rape. Also aggression of any kind is rewarded in this country (even when it is grossly excessive). We live in a violent society.

D'ya think this could have anything to do with it? :shrug:

[lastliberalintexas]

241. So 2 legal wrongs make a right?

Yes, rape is an underreported crime and cases are difficult to win. No, the victim/accused should not be blamed for the crime (and I've personally never posted anything close to that sentiment).

But prosecutors don't change their stripes based on the fact that a case is a rape case, unless it is to get even more aggressive due to the publicity surrounding a high profile, particularly gruesome case. Prosecutors are political animals and will usually do whatever it takes to get convictions- constitutional protections be damned.

Only recently the Harris County DA's office was shown to have deliberately presented bad expert testimony in the Andrea Yates case, so bad that even a Texas appellate court reversed the verdict and remanded her case for another trial. Do you think that her case is isolated? Hardly. And that is what I posted on- the surreal idea that liberals and progressives are almost blindly supporting the prosecution without regard to their motives and tactics.

Personal passions and emotions are not supposed to have any place in the legal system. I know that sounds cold and even odd to say, but think about it this way- there is a reason that we don't let the victim (or their families in murder cases) hand down the sentence, and that is because they can not be objective.

The issues that you raise concerning violence in this country are certainly valid, but irrelevant to a discussion of whether an accused rapist is still entitled to the presumption of innocence and whether we keep in mind the mentality and motivations of prosecutors in considering the legal issues surrounding same. I know that I sound like a broken record, but unless we provide those constitutional protections to everyone regardless of the crime charged, they will be good for no one.

[marions ghost]

338. you either

missed my point or sidestepped. I gave reasons for why people might be worked up by this case, suggesting that perhaps it's BECAUSE of the frustrations faced in trying to get any justice in sexual assault cases. You really have to take that fact into account in assessing the reactions of the (thinking) public. We have barely emerged from the Dark Ages re. male sexual predation crimes.

Prosecutors--they are good and bad. Nifong is respected. Patrick Fitz is also OK. You are saying they are not likely to be objective in a system that is supposed to be objective. So maybe that's a separate issue to work on. You also say "personal passions" are not supposed to have any place in the legal system"--I don't share that idealism.

I don't think anyone here is calling for NOT providing constitutional protections to the accused.

[nashville_brook]

169. it's an orgy of sociology -- that's my interest

am i the only one who didn't get the memo that rapists are all of a sudden rich white men? i always thought the people most likely to be falsely-accused of rape were disadvantaged. is that old fashioned of me?

[Celebration]

179. demographics

This kind of depends on the particular place. Durham has a 44% minority population and the DA is up for re-election soon. This may or may not be playing into this. It is all speculation until we see the evidence. As to whether you are old fashioned or not--well, maybe. Even if the people *most* likely to be falsely accused of rape may be disadvantaged, that doesn't preclude (at all) that white privileged men may also be falsely accused. Again, when the standard for conviction is reasonable doubt, that would mean (to me, as a juror) that there needs to be corroborating evidence of some kind. I am REALLY REALLY suspicious of identification of rape victims. People have wrongly gone to jail for decades because people misidentify people--even when they are well intentioned.

[progressivebydesign]

174. K&R. A perfect post. Thanks..

I've been trying to stay out of the threads about this, but have gone in a few times to educate some here that are trying the victim. I try to remember that when it comes to sports, fans are willing to totally suspend common sense and decency it if means protecting some celeb or minor celeb. Americans are celeb obsessed. If this was a party full of... engineering students, it would not get the airplay NOR would it get the people blaming the victim. This is shades of the Kobe Bryant case.. and it's ugly.

[nashville_brook]

184. (lol) engineerers don't have their own section in every newspaper...

or 24-hour cable channels following the day's Engineering events. there's no AM-radio call-in shows for engineers. but wouldn't it be cool if there was? seriously, tho -- the sports press has to fill a lot of time and a lot of space. i bet people know way more about sports than they do about politics.

the celebrity aspect is something i had not thought about. this is completely naîve of me.

[xultar]

186. DAMN FUCKIN STRAIGHT!

[nashville_brook]

209. thanks!

allcaps really does it make feel moreso. :) this is stuff to get excited about. this is where the political is personal.

[xultar]

221. Hell yeah. That is some personal shit. Who knows what a guy

will get all crazy about; it could be long hair, long nails, big feet maybe even a red shirt. Just cuz I wear it doesn't make it right for you to rape me or assume I want it.

Furthermore some asshats don't realise that they can't rape strippers and exotic dancers. That ad spoke to the reality that some people don't understand. YOU CAN'T RAPE ANYONE REGARDLESS!

DAMN STRAIGHT!

I love that ad.

Great post.

[gulliver]

212. The Duke Lacrosse player rape case means nothing.

The victim (if she turns out to be a victim) is no more meaningful than any other rape victim. It is a travesty if this victim, a stripper, becomes representative of rape victims in any discussion of any kind. The Lacrosse players, if guilty, should get the prescribed punishments. And the whole world should shut up about it. The case is meaningless.

[Fleshdancer]

214. why would it be a travesty if this woman represents rape victims?

And why should anyone shut up about this? Why do you say this is meaningless?

[Ignis]

220. Thank you for posting this.

I've been absolutely gobsmacked at some of the same posts that (most likely) prompted you to post this ad. You've done a great job of dissecting these posts and denouncing the underlying "good girls don't get raped" argument. My hat is off to you.

[nashville_brook]

226. thanks -- i knew if posted on this subject, i'd need to stay with it

it would be horrible to post something like this and just let it flame out. it turned out i had time and opportunity today. :)

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nashville_brook]

237. are all representatations of sex oppressive to women?

is it possible for women to create non-oppressive 'porn' (moving pictures of people going at it)?

can women be feminists and work in the sex industry?

can i masturbate without killing a kitten?

:)

i'm sorry, i don't mean to make light -- it just cracks me up to speak as first-person masturbator.

[femmedem]

239. Why I considered myself a feminist while I was a dancer

1. Because I said it's my body and I will choose when to display it or not display it, even if my decision goes against society's grain.

2. Because as a dancer, my time was valuable.

3. Because dancing used every part of my being: my looks, my athleticism, my artistry, my intelligence, my compassion, my soul.

4. Because when I danced, I had intelligent conversations with men who wanted to impress me. When I was a secretary, engineers assumed I was too stupid to correct their misspellings.

5. Because I demonstrated to men that I was a sexy woman because of the way I moved and spoke as much as how I looked. I have short legs and average B-cup breasts. That was fine. I was making $400/night when I quit in my late 30's.

6. Because I never had a problem telling a man he was out of line if he was disrespectful.

7. Because maybe I opened a few minds about a woman's right to make her own life choices.

[Cats Against Frist]

412. I used my "soul" when I sold my body for money

Dehumanization is about the least soulful thing that I can think of.

[Kailassa]

431. Are you saying you used to sell your body for money

and found it dehumanizing?

If so I sympathize, but not everybody finds sex dehumanizing.

Some people see sex as a wonderful part of life. Sex and dancing are the best exercises there are, and regular sex, even masturbation, can do a lot to prevent depression. Having a partner who is both considerate and who loves sex can make every day fun, and if girls have enjoyed making porn movies and my S.O. then enjoys watching them with me, no-one is hurt.

As for prostitution, it's like abortion in that it answers a need that will always be there. Criminalization only drives it underground and puts girls' lives at risk. It's much more helpful if people get over their puritanical prejudices and work at making life safer for everyone.

A talibanist attitude to sex and erotica does nothing but leave people frustrated and drive such things underground. What we need is an understanding that rape is not sex, and that nothing sexual should ever be done to another person without their full agreement.

[femmedem]

440. I think Cats against Frist was quoting from my previous post,

and taking issue with what I said. I don't think she was saying she ever sold her body for money.

I agree with everything in your lovely post, though.

[Cats Against Frist]

454. I don't want to "criminalize" the sex industry

People automatically mistake an opinion for a call for government intervention. I don't want anyone to go to jail for stripping or posing, and I don't want some kind of Taliban-like restriction levied on women. That said, I still think that the sex industry harms women.

And I'm not "against sex," either. What is it with this message board?

[femmedem]

439. I empathize with your desire for women to be seen

as more than objects, or not primarily as objects. But...but...life is so rich with ambiguity. I might be disheartened when I flip through the NYTimes and see page after page of women in their underwear. (More disheartened by their news coverage, but that's another thread.) So I really do appreciate where you're coming from.

And yet, I wouldn't say I sold my body. I still own it. And I wouldn't call exotic dancing dehumanizing. It's not the slippery slope to the Bosnian rape camps. The beautiful thing is that it's the women who are active and in control. The men sit and receive whatever the woman offers.

I don't know how much time you've spent watching dancers, but maybe you'd be surprised and relieved to know that far from being Stepford women, we're wildly individualistic. We all present ourselves differently: slinky, powerful, gentle, proud, daredevil, goofball, elegant...And we have our different appearances, too. I've seen curvy robust women and tiny narrow-hipped women and tattooed women with shaved heads all have their followings and make good livings.

And maybe you'd be surprised to know that often, very often, men paid me $2/minute to sit and talk with them, fully clothed. They'd tell me all sorts of things about their lives: about grieving for a wife who died of cancer, about being a middle-aged virgin, about being hurled back in time to Vietnam by an ambulance's flashing lights. My customers and I exchanged favorite books and music. We were intimate.

I never believed in the mind/body split, and I don't think of one as being more important than the other. So for me, having a job where I revealed both, used both, shared both was profoundly humanizing. And when I consider all the varied women who dance, and all the varied men who appreciate them, well, I get all warm and fuzzy.

Peace to you. My cats are against Frist, too.

[miss_american_pie]

245. So what doesn't dehumanize women?

How many religions do exactly the same thing with all their talk of abstinence and "saving" one's virginity as a "gift" to one's husband? Or traditions that insist looking at a woman, in whole or in part, is the right of her husband alone? How is a woman engaging as a willing participant in sex any more damaging than that?

How exactly do we go about preventing the objectification of women?

(I tried to re-word this a few times so that it wouldn't sound snarky. I really would like to hear your opinion.)

[Jersey Devil]

263. They should also indict the escort service that sent them there

They have to be complete idiots and criminally negligent to send dancers to a college party (no matter how many were supposed to be there) without bouncers.

[Name removed]

370. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cats Against Frist]

410. Bullshit.

I'm defending women -- not "hating them." Third-wave feminism can take a flying fucking leap. All I'm saying is that women who provide their bodies for pornography, sex for money, and the sexual objectification of stripping, etc., are contributing to the rape culture. Don't try to spin that as "woman hater." The woman hater is the woman who subjugates herself to male fantasy, and sells her body to rape culture. I think you're going to have a hard time spinning this opinion into "woman hating."

[nashville_brook]

413. sex positive feminists/women might disagree

are you defending all women except the third-wave feminists who can all take a leap. is that not objectifying?

'rape culture' -- see below, post #361 from bloom on 'rape theory.' i'd like to see your input there.

your position is similar to what many consider to be a 'conservative feminist' view. all commercial titilation is oppressive -- almost to the point of all heterosexual relations being structurally oppressive. andrea dworkin et al. there were many years when this was the only 'game in town.' i think it's interesting that in such a broad discussion of rape, that yours is the only post so far that goes in this direction. it's a radical stance. so, you're catching some heat, but it's good. maybe there's something in the Theory post down below that helps.

[Cats Against Frist]

455. Of course they disagree

They've tried to run my posts off the board. Of course, they are also disagreeing with a point that I never made -- which was that the victim somehow invited her own rape. My concern is with the broader narrative of sexuality. I'll check out the theory post. Thanks.

[jukes]

442. so, workers in the male sex-industry

are asking to be raped?

your reasoning is spurious and has no basis in fact. in fact, ithas no clinical support.

i don't have to "spin" a goddam thing; you've created your own web, and your assumptions label you adequately enough.

[Cats Against Frist]

453. Stop it, please

I NEVER SAID that a woman was "asking to be raped." Not once. Quit the goddamn melodrama, and listen to what I'm saying: people who provide fodder for the perpetuation of male titillation culture are a danger to women -- and not just physical danger, but emotional danger, and various other kinds of problems.

And now, thanks to some paranoid freak, my OP, which was not offensive IN ANY WAY, NOR SAID THE VICTIM DESERVED TO BE RAPED has now been deleted. I suppose that's how the rumors that there are "terrible DUers who want all women to be raped," are getting started. Someone makes a post that runs contrary to third-wave bullshit antics gets deleted, and that person thinks the victim deserved what she got. That's straight fucking horseshit.

[Name removed]

457. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kailassa]

458. I should never read posts like yours when I'm drinking.

Tea everywhere. ;-)

:toast:

[Cats Against Frist]

460. Oh, I just looked and realize that you're male

That explains much. The argument that I'm having with you, if you're not aware, is a COMMON argument AMONGST TWO SCHOOLS OF FEMINISM. So stop calling me a misogynist and making personal attacks.

[jukes]

465. weren't you

dismissed?

go bother someone else, you've become tedious. besides, "daddy" probably needs another cup of coffee!

[Cats Against Frist]

466. "Dismissed?"

I think you've shown your true colors, here. Dismiss the woman that questions your sick, twisted sex fantasies. Lovely.

[Kailassa]

474. Yep Jukes, having a "dangly" down there means

you can't possibly understand that it's not misogynistic to say that sex workers cause other women to get raped or (from a post further down) that the liberation of women causes rape.

No woman could ever be a misogynist because that's a term that only applies to men.

And I guess it's not manhating, (funny there's no opposite to misogynist) to say all woman must live like prudes or men won't be able to control their impulses and resist immediate, forceful sexual activity with them ;-)

I hope it's obvious I'm just sharing a laugh with you. I refuse to take everyone seriously on any forum, my stressed out heart needs to rest from that and see the humour sometimes. I respect your posts though. This forum needs all the calm rational people it can find, and I can't always be one of them.

[LostinVA]

481. Ah contraire! There is an opposite to misogynist!

It's misandrist.

And watch out for Jukes... he'll go crazy and start raking someone's shins soon....!

[Cats Against Frist]

487. Well, it's a start

For one thing, a male defending violent and degrading male fantasy makes a lot of sense.

As I explained to Jukes, this philosophy of "mine" didn't just come right out of my ass -- it's the same argument that has been going on between sex-positive feminists and radical feminists for like 2-3 decades, if not longer. I am a feminist -- most definitely -- and I take a radical feminist position. This, de facto, does not make me a mysoginist.

And, I wasn't sure that you were kidding when you called me a "troll." Lots of knee-jerk posters react to my posts on radical queer theory and radical feminist theory like this, and it pisses me off. It almost seems like people want to be victimized and powerless. I believe in narrative and social construction -- not biology, not genetics -- and I believe that all of that can be changed. Most liberals do, except for when it comes to sex and sexual orientation -- then, to defend their positions, they shift into absolutist, biological and "that's just the way it is, deal with it," arguments, that are very freeper-ish. It frustrates me to no end, because I get attacked for it. It's simply another liberal position.

[Kailassa]

497. I wouldn't kid you, Cats.

I'm still appreciating the clever parody. Until one analyses the statements you make, one could easily be fooled into believing there was logic to be found in them.

[Triana]

473. You're missing a BIG point Cats Against Frist....

...rape is NOT a sex crime. It's a VIOLENT crime. It's not about SEX. So "women who provide fodder for male tittilation" don't have jack to do with it.

Men (and women) don't rape because they want sex or because they're turned on. THEY RAPE BECAUSE THEY WANT CONTROL and they want to DEGRADE a person's humanity - NOT for sex. The rapes that occured at Abu Ghraib did NOT occur because the guard wanted sex. They occurred because the guards wanted to DOMINATE, CONTROL, AND DEHUMANIZE their prisoners. Old women and children are not raped because rapists are 'turned on' or 'tittilated'. They're raped because the rapist is VIOLENT, angry, and wants CONTROL and domination.

[Cats Against Frist]

485. I do believe that is a huge part of it

but I don't necessarily believe that that's the only reason that people get raped. My main reason comes from two points: a) the eroticization of rape and b) BDSM.

Fact: Rape imagery and narrative are a large part of pornographic culture.
Fact: Both men and women have rape fantasies.
Fact: BDSM, an expression of power and dominance is intertwined with sexuality.
Fact: People "get off" from being dominated.

I simply don't see how one can separate the two. I do believe people get raped for power and dominance, and I also believe that many rapes are an extension of the eroticization of rape. You can examine the root causes of why people are attracted to rape narratives and power/dominance sexual narratives, and you can critique them. But to say that rape is not eroticized, is simply untrue.

[NashVegas]

519. What Part of "Choice" Do You Not Understand?

Women in the sex trade is not the problem. Those who refuse another the right of choice in whether or not to engage in sex are the ones who are responsible for rape.

[LostinVA]

435. Yes... if that's not misogyny, the definition must have changed

[KAT119]

230. K&R!

[Turn CO Blue]

232. This is an excellent post. Thanks for getting us all to think.

[SlipperySlope]

235. What matters to me is "none of the above".

What matters to me isn't any of the made up excuses above. What matters to me is simple: Was she raped?

[tomreedtoon]

240. It makes a difference that they're jocks.

It's stretching the term to call them "jocks," because lacrosse isn't a real sport, as George Carlin defined it; it does not entail great risk of death or maiming. Lacrosse is somewhere around the range of bowling and chess club as a non-sport.

However, yes. They are jocks. Their primary activity in life is bullying people. And while high-level jocks, like the guys on the football team, are known for bullying nerds and even nominally normal people, these lower-grade jocks aren't known for much. So they obviously took the traditional route to prove their manhood; they raped some woman. And, please note, a woman they had to pay for; a high-level jock would have raped a cheerleader or any woman within reach.

As far as "cracking the code," consider this crack: the best swordsman in the land would not fear the second-best swordsman, but the worst swordsman; the worst swordsman is unpredictable. It's always the timid guy who is the serial killer. And it's the low-level jock that can be the most dangerous. An exotic dancer with experience would know what to expect from football players and would come prepared (say, with a protector with muscle and guns). These guys seemed timid, though, so the woman came "strapless." She made a terrible error in judgment.

And now, let's see what the Code Monkeys make of this simple, honest description of the way things work.

[Pacifist Patriot]

243. One quibble.

{Lacrosse} does not entail great risk of death or maiming.

I went to a school serious as hell about it's lacrosse team. Even dated a player...briefly. They can certainly maim or kill one another out there on the lacrosse field. It's neither golf nor rugby, but it can be quite a brutal sport.

[ContraBass Black]

251. Weren't the original lacrosse games

Like massive battles?

[Pacifist Patriot]

254. This is a great site for an overview history.

http://www.uslacrosse.org/the_sport/index.phtml

Downplays the "brawn" part but I know a fair number of players who take pride in bulking up and being a huge presence on the field.

[tomreedtoon]

407. All sports are massive battles...but lacrosse???

I don't know what males are doing playing the sport, but it used to be the only sport girls could play in high school (before Title 1). And it would only be played in the fall, on the worst, muddiest and most ugly fields available to the school. And, frankly, no girl would publicly admit that she played lacrosse because she'd be labeled as a lesbian.

[tomreedtoon]

408. No one was burned to death or paralyzed, were they? Not a sport.

The whole principal of sport is for the participants to be put in as much danger of death or crippling injury as possible. That is what makes automobile racing a sport, and it's what makes golf NOT a sport. Basketball's inevitable destruction of the players' cartilage and joints qualified it for a sport, but its status as a sport has been cemented by the NBA players carrying loaded firearms everywhere they go.

In fact, the higher the fatality/casualty rate, the more women are infatuated by the athletes. This is why these lacrosse players had to hire a woman. A football player could send a whiff of underarm sweat in the direction of women and they'd fall all over him.

[nashville_brook]

257. omg -- i love your comments

first of all, mentioning the george carlin bit -- that's been top of mind all day. recently carlin's football vs baseball bit on some npr show ("to the best of our knowledge"? maybe).

secondly -- you nailed it with regard to the elite sports pecking order and how that plays out psycho/sexual-sociologically. there's a piece in my journal about SEX roles and FASCISM i'd love for you comment on.

hopefully i've behaved well enough to reveal a little of my own bias. i think there IS a stereotype of the Rich White Rapist, because, well, Rich White Guys tend to do a lot of psycho/sexual power-tripping. prep school and privilage. narcissism and shame. competition. power. what could go wrong?

all the kids that i knew who did the secondary/tertiary sports -- lacrosse, wrestling -- had the same alpha male struggles, but also contended with the un-masculineness of their chosen sport. yes, i'm talking to you high school wrestling team -- that's weird, grabbing each other like that. :)

these aren't sports of "personal best" like track and field and long distance running -- these are alpha male rituals. they attract a certain kind of person and cultivate (reinforce) certain relationships to power.

sports is all about The Power. it's totally fair-game to go meme-digging there.

"we" are fascinated with sports for a very good reason -- it tells us something about ourselves.

[tomreedtoon]

409. Now about that "rich white rapists..."

If any of the team members were black, the entry of the race factor would have killed this entire discussion. It wouldn't be PC to show any black man as a rapist. And if the black rapist were a player in a real sport - say, football - there'd be a double layer of armor against accusations.

It's ridiculous to say "the race card" was played in this case, simply because there are MANY race cards, and they all have different effects, depending upon in which community the card is played. Race is such a complex matter in America that the race cards must resemble the cards in Magic: The Gathering or Pokemon.

[benburch]

261. None of the jocks I knew would have raped anybody.

Not when I played football.

Not when I played rugby.

Not when I was a fencer.

And had we all gotten together and hired a stripper... Her worst problem would have been that we would have fed her so many bongs that she would likely have forgotten where she parked.

[nashville_brook]

268. :) times have changed

your post reminds me of the movie Dazed and Confused. that's completely my teenage timeframe. there were still some 'jocks' who smoked bud -- and they were cool. but by and large, us freaks stayed clear of jocks after 1979. at least jocks in socially-stressed environments. i had the 'benefit' of having moved from school to school during high school -- from a military/jock environment (central florida) to a mountain hillbilly/chemical engineering town (kingsport TN) where the strata was massaged by the high population of PhD's. kingsport was way better in terms of jocks bullying freaks -- BUT the prep school/privilage aspect was far more pronounced.

these are micro-cultures and totally useless for 'healing' -- but, they fascinate me.

[benburch]

348. Class of '76 here.

Wow, I miss killer weed for $20 an oz...

[nashville_brook]

405. the good old days -- sigh

i'm an 84 grad. i count myself as lucky to have seen the tail-end of those years. most of my friends were older than me -- and their friends were older than them. back when kids ran around "the neighborhood." riding bikes and listening to FM radio. good times.

times change. hell, i miss killer weed at $200 an oz -- :)

[benburch]

446. Is it more than $200 an oz? Seriously?

Wow. (can you tell its been YEARS since I bought any?)

It's just a WEED. It grows itself almost anywhere!

[Pacifist Patriot]

449. Funny you should be talking about this. The other day I was..

trying to compare the rise in price between gasoline/oil and marijuana. Couldn't find any reliable statistics on the latter.

[nashville_brook]

470. late 80s, early 90s

200-300 an oz was common for the goooood stuff. mountain people are connoisseurs.

funny story... about this time there was an NBC News Special Report on pot growing in eastern kentucky. the pot economy is BIG up there. they were interviewing the cheif of police who was in prison for growing. here's the funny part -- they ran subtitles while he spoke. so people could understand thru the heavy mountain accent. i understood him perfectly. :)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

520. How do you know that?

Have you ever met these people, or are you simply assuming that all lacrosse players "primary activity in life is bullying people"? And how can you justify saying that they "obviously" raped this woman? They may well have done so, but "obviously"?

I'd at least wait and see what the jury has to say before making these kind of sweeping stereotypes.

I also wouldn't describe going to dance for a lacrosse team as a "terribly error of judgement". The reason stories like this one make the news is that they're very much the exception rather than the rule, no matter how much some DUers would have you believe that every college athlete is a simply a rapist waiting for an opportunity.

[tomreedtoon]

560. Welcome to America, stranger. All jocks are bullies.

Perhaps you never went to high school in our country. Or perhaps you went to a private school that didn't have sports. The only other alternative is that you were someone so far above the life of ordinary, real students that you know nothing about their lives. (Such as the children of teachers who attend the school where their parents work, or members of High School Papacy like the student council presidents.)

So, perhaps for the first time in your life, read these inalienable truths. Gravity works. The sun sets in the west. Kids who have low self-esteem will be beaten and raped in high school, and quite often the rest of their lives. And the ones who will beat and rape them are the jocks and the rich girls (who often employ the jocks to do their dirty work).

And as for this particular instance, the woman did not "go to" a dance. She went to the party as a professional erotic entertainer. As such, she undoubtedly knew that she was going to be raising the lusts of these jocks (and for jocks, lust is tied to bloodlust). Her error in judgment was her decision not to take additional protection against these bastards with numbered jerseys. If she couldn't arrange or afford such protection, she shouldn't have worked the party.

I am not against the woman making money with her sexuality, as long as it isn't used to hurt people. But a person experienced in any kind of show business knows there are always hecklers. In the sex entertainment business, hecklers come equipped with broken beer bottles and knives.

[Kailassa]

561. Just to clarify some details,

She did not go to the party on her own, 2 strippers went together.
This is pretty normal, and usually, with the small group of guys expected by the girls, should have been adequate for safety.

It appears that whoever booked the girls informed the agency that sent them that there would only be five men there. For all we know, the girls may not have gone if they had known the true situation.

[tomreedtoon]

566. And these girls believed their agent? In the PORN business?

First off, unless one of the strippers was six foot five, a martial artist and capable of bench-pressing an SUV, two women wouldn't count. Two ordinary women, especially ones built for erotic performing, simply means two opportunities for rape. Countering violent people requires at least the threat of violence. (Ed Grimley couldn't intimidate drunken frat boys with just words; Steven Segall could.)

Second, in every branch of show business, but especially in porn, agents and managers lie. They don't need to say "the check is in the mail" because it's assumed that the check isn't. If these strippers believed Jimmy the Weasel when he told them there would be only five guys at the party, they probably hadn't worked long in the business.

[Kailassa]

569. I certainly wish any girl in that position could trust her agent and

have all the protection necessary, as I'm sure you do too.

[tomreedtoon]

577. Um...this is the PORN business we're talking about, right?

This is not a business based on trust or mutual advantage. It is a business operated by organized crime. And frankly, it's a business of pure viciousness; the stronger taking advantage of the weaker, complicated by "which area of strength and weakness."

For instance, the dancers have power over the men for whom they perform, because those men are dominated by their lust and their insecurity about sex. And the club owners dominate the dancers because they have physical strength, economic power and they aren't affected by the dancers's sexual appeal. So, there's continual jockeying of power. And any alliance of mutual protection (say, a bouncer protecting a dancer) is based only on current advantage.

Speaking of weakness, I'm given to understand that a large proportion of topless and nude dancers have been physically abused or raped. Even if they claim they enjoy their work and their entertaining, there's a sad psycho-sexual component to their personalities. They can be easily controlled by men through violence, specifically the club owners, and they generally won't have the ability to fight back that a confident, secure woman might be able to use.

And remember, we're talking about sex, something that has little or no relation to love.

[Kailassa]

579. I'm not about to argue with you.

You write as though you know what you're talking about.

But, a porn business does not have to be that way.

Where the activities are completely legal, it is possible for the women to take control. Here in Australia, brothels are legal, and being a prostitute is legal, provided you are working from a registered premises. So big business runs a few mega brothels, and the Victorian government has large stakes in the bigger ones. However some of the smaller ones are being run by individual women, or by the prostitutes themselves.

A young woman I know from a wealthy Catholic family decided to work as a prostitute, because she enjoyed the work. Now that's something I find hard to understand, but everyone has a right to make their own choices, whether others understand them or not. She certainly seemed happy and confident, and I could see no evidence she was not completely enjoying her lifestyle. But the brothel she was in was run by the girls who worked there. When the owner had wanted to sell it, the girls got together, as i've known workers in other businesses to do, and bought it. So they were able to run it as it suited them.

Eventually, this girl's parents found out what she was doing, and astounded her by taking a pragmatic approach. Realizing she was going to keep working in that area anyway, they bought her a brothel of her own, so she could still be in the industry without working on her back. She still did that too, because she enjoyed it, but only for her most special customers.

I also know of a woman who produces porn movies, with no mob or big business involvement, movies aimed at the female market, so having a bit more plot and a lot less gross close-ups of the machinery in action.

So that's how it could all be in an ideal world. But I expect that even in Australia the "good" stories I can tell you are the exception.

There is a big problem with Asian girls being brought here under false pretenses and forced to work in brothels as slaves, and the government does its utmost to keep the figures covered over. And a government employment centre sent a gorgeous looking 17 y o daughter of a friend of mine to a job as receptionist in a brothel, saying that, as it was a legal business, she could not get the dole if she refused to work there. Her assertive mother made that employment centre take brothels from the work options presented, but brothel work is still advertised at other employment centres.

Prostitution is like aborton is one sense; it is as old as civilization, and will always happen, no matter what people who are opposed to it do to wipe it out. And, like abortion, it needs a two-pronged approach, to work on the situation women are in so they will not be pressured into it, and to work on making life better and safer for the ones that still do.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

565. I think you're massively overstating your case.

FYI, I'm English, not American, but we have "jocks" over here too. The claim that "all jocks are bullies" is, quite simply, false. Some, yes; many, arguably; all, nonsense.

Likewise, many and arguably most kids with low self esteem will be bullied in school, sometimes to the point where the phrase "beaten" is applicable, a small (a very, very small indeed) number will be raped there. But without those qualifiers as to incidence, the claim becomes extremely misleading at best and downright false at worst.

That "for jocks, lust is tied to bloodlust" is simply not true, in the *overwhelming* majority of cases.

Your claim that "the ones who will beat and rape them are the jocks and rich girls", incidentally, fails dramatically to tally with my experience, and those of people I've spoken too - most bullies are children from poorer, more deprived backgrounds.

I can't comment from first hand experience on correlation between rape in school and wealth; as I've said the incidence is negligable (which is one of the reasons this case has gotten so much publicity) and I've never met anyone with any experience of it (plus I went to an all male school), but in society as a whole, again, far more rapes are committed by, and far, far more committed against, poorer as opposed to richer people.

[tomreedtoon]

567. Well, should you come to America, I hope you learn...safely.

First, although it often has a bad connotation, prejudice is often a valuable quality. Perhaps that beer-swilling, out-of-control, blood-covered football player will be the one who won't break your legs and rape your date, but it's not a safe bet. Far better to be prejudiced and run from the creature.

Second, those "qualifications" mean nothing when it comes to personal safety. They are whistling in the dark. They are vain hopes that the preponderance of evidence is not true. Take the word from someone who learned the hard way, ALL jocks are violent bastards.

For instance, to claim that bullies come only from "poorer, more deprived backgrounds" won't wash. One of the best examples is the guy who, despite massive progressive efforts, wound up as our President. You can also see the Columbine killers who lead comfortable middle-class lifestyles, and you could even go back to the Leopold and Loeb murders.

And there are any number of women who have been victims of rape, who post here on DU. They will refute the idea that "far more rapes are committed by, and far, far more committed against, poorer as opposed to richer people." The usual statement in rape prevention classes is that "every woman is a potential target, every man a potential rapist." That means from any social class, race or age group. Here in Florida there are regular reports of women aged 60 and above who become rape victims.

Hopefully, this bit of knowledge will save your life.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

572. You're confusing anecdotal and statistical evidence.

Producing counter examples won't refute my claim that more rapists and far more rape victims are poorer rather than richer. It *would* refute a claim that all rapists or rape victims are poor, but that's not what I said (because it's patently not true).

To refute my claim, you'd have to refer to the statistics, and I'm reasonably confident those support me.

Likewise, I didn't (and wouldn't) claim that bullies only come from poorer or more deprived backgrounds, (because obviously that's not true, as you say). I claimed that bullies *disproportionately* come from poorer and more deprived backgrounds, which is a completely different matter.

I'm on slightly less solid ground here, because as far as I know there aren't any statistics on this one, but because bullying is so much more frequent that rape I have a larger (i.e. large enough not to be statistically insignificant) pool of first and second hand evidence to call on, which strongly supports my claim, (at least with reference to England; I would be not amazed but fairly surprised if America's school culture was sufficiently different for it not to be the case there too, given that the countries are fairly culturally similar in other respects).

[tomreedtoon]

578. It's difficult to collect statistics from the dead or terrified.

You think any young male wants to talk about the fact that he is a punching bag for a jock? "Hi, I'm glad to tell you I have no manhood at all."

Some of the victims of bullies aren't alive enough to answer surveys. (And you're making the fatal assumption that teachers give a damn about students living, let alone conducting surveys of them. They don't.)

Well, until you are reincarnated in the body of a weak American boy and have to live through the hell of adolescence yourself, all I can do is point you in the direction of a few movies that explain the experience of adolescence. Try looking up these on IMDB:

Three O'Clock High: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094138/
A comedy, making light of real world bullying. Well, comedy comes from tragedy.

Elephant: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363589/
No emotional drama, just a plain procedural of a high school shooting.

Massacre at Central High: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074875/
A more factual film about high school life, despite its horror-film trappings.

River's Edge: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091860/
Getting back to violence against women...here it is among teens.

Hopefully these will give you a clue or three.

[Kailassa]

568. So the raped and the rapists are predominantly poor people?

A rich girl will be far less often exposed to danger from strangers, but tha majority of rapists are men who already are known to the woman concerned, so that doesn't make them a whole lot safer.

As for poor people being much more likely to be rapists, what rude garbage.

Before you spout prejudice like that, at least have the decency to find some proof to back it up.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

573. Before *I* spout prejudice?

The post I was replying too claimed "All jocks are bullies" and "and the ones who will beat and rape them are the jocks and rich girls". Not "some", or "most", or "disproportionately many", but "all".

I claimed, and claim, that both raped and rapists are predominantly poor people. Not "all/most/many/more than a very few poor people are rapists", or "all/most rapists are poor", but "a higher proportion of poor people than rich people are rapists" (and the same is true, to a greater extent, of rape victims).

It's certainly not garbage, given that it's true. I'm afraid it's a sufficiently non-controversial claim that I'm not going to spend too long link-hunting for proof, but a brief search on google turned up http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html
and http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=17749 and http://www.icasa.org/uploads/adult_victimss.pdf , all of which support the claim about likelihood of being a rape victim (note that I make no claim whatsoever about the reliability of these; the first two both look distinctly dodgy at a brief glance).

I don't know any statistics on correlation between income and likelihood of committing rape, but given the above fact, the statistic you yourself quote about nearly all rapists knowing their victim, and the very strong correlation between income between aquaintances; and given the relatively strong correlations of both likelihood of committing rape and income with race; I think it's a fairly safe assumption that poorer men are more likely (although still vanishingly unlikely, given the percentage of the population who are rapists) than richer ones to commit rape.

[Kailassa]

580. I was abused in a comparatively "rich" family.

I could never get the police or any other authority to take my situation seriously, because these things are presumed not to happen in "nice" families. This left my family free to abuse other girls, not a single one of whom was ever able to get justice, or do anything that would have her situation included in any statistics.

There are many other situatons like mine, and people spouting elitist nonsense that indicates that rich people are somehow "better", make it easier for the rich to continue to evade the radar as they prey upon the weak.

One of the reasons the American government's child abuse scandal, (the Franklin case,) was so easy to cover over is that the average person is not going to believe a wealthy person with high social status would ever do such things.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

582. Just because something is unwelcome doesn't mean that it's nonsense.

If anything, sexual violence against richer victims is reported more often than against poorer ones, because the victims are on average more likely to be believed.

I'm not saying that rich people are "somehow better"; that's a possible conclusion to draw from the evidence but by no means the only one, or the one I would draw. What I am saying, and what I am pointing at hard evidence to prove, is that rich people are less likely to commit rape (*not* "never do such things"), and much less likely to be victims of rape, than poorer ones. That much can be demonstrated rigorously; anything more than that is speculation.

Calling that "elitist nonsene" isn't a rebuttal. That it "makes it easier for the rich to continue to evade the radar" is irrelevant to whether or not it's true; it could be the basis for an argument that one should pretend it isn't true even though it is, but that's a very dangerous road to go down.

[blondeatlast]

242. We should focus on the sense of entitlement in the Duke case

as much as we focus on what the accuser may have or have not done.

Not just racial, but class, and privilege entitlement (wealth, race, athletic ability, etc.)

I'll just say it: I've gone to classy strip clubs with my husband and I've enjoyed it.

I've also made a casual study of the men in such places. I've never seen one come close to stepping out of bounds. Of course, these are clubs where the security is tight, but there is also an unspoken social contract.

I've seen absolutely drop-dead gorgeous women give lap dances to drunken men--and the women don't get grabbed, much less raped. Men who are expected to control their urges can and do--unless they are being encouraged to lose control. I see that very possibility in the Duke case.

What the Duke players MAY not have been able to do is control themselves under the influence of dozens of others like them. I've been to fraternity parties and have seen some crude, rude, and just this side of legal--and I've seen others URGE that behavior on.

I wasn't there, but I can see how things could have easily escalated to such a point in the Duke case.

This dialog is essential, and I applaud you for posting this thread.

[nashville_brook]

264. thanks! :) me too, btw -- it used to be the 'cool thing' to do

back in college. husband was in a band so we knew lots of strippers and some of the totally middle-class, nice girls that hung with us would perform to earn extra cash. everyone had quite the cavelier attitude about 'supporting your stripper friends' the same way people come out to support bands or you'd go see the drag show.

regardless, everyone, at some point in their lives, owes it to themselves to do shit like that -- go to a strip bar. a drag show and (if you must) perform karaoke. :) do it for the people-watching if for no other reason.

to the issue of urge control and group mentality -- this is where it gets really interesting. what is alleged to have happened is *decadent* behavior in the Caligula sense -- not the Bettie Page sense. i would like to preserve the Bettie Page aspects of culture and reduce the Caligula-aspects. which begs a question -- is this event, this controversy, the product of our zeitgeist?

how might this rape (if there is one) be the product of our zeitgeist? could this, would this happen at any other time in history? what good has contributed to this being a controversy? at least it's news. what bad has contributed to this becoming a controversy? do we really have a DEEP problem with power and privilage and is being writing in blood and bruises?

sidenote -- one of the men is also charged with assault in a gay-bashing incident in DC. power? privilege? repressed homosexuality?

[bloom]

278. power and privilege

I posted this above - but it fits here, too:

"In addition, high-powered attorney Bill Bennett, who represented Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones case, has been hired to try to polish the public image of the players, Regan says."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/13/earlyshow/main1495346.shtml


So the players have a high powered public relations attorney. I suppose they will have high powered attorneys all over the place. Because this is not just about 3 lacrosse players or 46 lacrosse players. It is also about Duke and it's reputation.

One of the things I posted in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=866885&mesg_id=866885

was how Duke has been complicit is letting things slide with this team. Incidents were handled by the University - not the local police. So they have some responsibility if they let haven't been doing their job - and were covering for the team for their own benefit (like that they made money off of the lacrosse team).

Burness said that Durham police had been asked to inform the university when its students were arrested in town. The charges then were dealt with in the student court system...

My point was that, whatever comes of the rape allegations, the lacrosse team was widely known to be out of control long before those allegations were ever made."

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/424766.html

[blondeatlast]

411. "...widely known to be out of control..."

I find this very interesting in light of this related post regarding how the parties are being described:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2576769&mesg_id=2577059

She's a "woman," but they are BOYS?

[tomreedtoon]

563. The distinction between "woman" and "girl" is important.

A "girl" - that is, someone the same age as the jocks - could be a student at the school. In other words, someone who made her decision to display her stuff with just one whiff of a jock's armpit. In other words, someone letting her emotions or lust get out of control.

A "woman" is someone responsible for her own actions while a "girl" is not. By calling her a "woman" she is being given some degree of nobility - and responsibility for her behavior. She was, after all, performing for money.

The other guys weren't "boys" at all. They were jocks. They are creatures of violence. "Boy" suggests a form of innocents, and guys who spend their lives beating up on people weaker than they are can't be considered innocent. They also aren't "men," because they don't take responsibility for their actions. Their status as "sports heroes" and as spoiled rich boys allows them to avoid responsibility. (See George W. Bush.)

Come to think of it, is the reason DU is so fascinated by this case because it so resembles what happened with Bush and the people deluded into voting for him? Those voters believed they'd be safe, too, and make a lot of money by selecting him. And they got raped.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

441. It is tempting to blame the sense of entitlement

but there was a similar situation here at FAMU about 15 years ago with one of the teams. I can't remember if it was football or what. But FAMU is a historically black school and there is not a lot of entitlement on campus. This situation involved an underage girl and a group situation and I'm not sure exactly how it ended up. It wasn't in court, I don't think.

But I think that any "entitlement" might come from the macho these athletes ascribe to themselves. They have to prove things to each other, etc. I guess there is also some sort of primative, barbarian thing about lots of men and one girl. God only knows where THAT comes from.

[bloom]

510. You can have men

who have the "sense of entitlement" to rape from different backgrounds. You could have a street gang with a "sense of entitlement" to rape - because they are supposedly providing "security" to the victim or some such nonsense.


I think the Duke players may have had a sense of entitlement because they had been allowed to get away with stuff for too long for one thing. And been "worshiped" as sports stars. And for another - they may have thought that there was no way anyone would take a stripper seriously if she were to tell her version of the story. (As we have seen some evidence of around here).

[tomreedtoon]

562. Working in a mob-controlled club is different than a party.

And I hope you understand that those "classy strip clubs" are owned by organized crime. There are gangs of all kinds of ethnicity and background, but they all qualify as "mobs."

These places are orderly because they are kept orderly. The owners don't want trouble with the police or the press; that gets in the way of the outrageous profits they make. The party is kept polite by the very large men wearing athletic-cut suits that can easily hide a pistol - although these guys don't need to use firearms when they can chill your blood with just a word or two.

If the Duke scumbags had attended their party in one of these clubs, the second they edged up to that line, one of the Mr. Fixit guys would stop it cold. This was in the jocks' own den, however.

The possibility occurs to me that the woman was performing at their party as an "independent contractor." In other words, she wanted to perform without The Boss getting ninety percent of what she earned. So she went alone without any of the Mr. Fixits for protection. She may have gotten a misperception that all men react to erotic dancing as politely as the men do in the club, with the ever-present threat of a broken jaw hanging over their shoulders. Perhaps it was her sheltered misperception that doomed her.

I had to mention this because there are some people who think the sex industry is somehow "liberating" or "ennobling." It isn't. Like most businesses involving organized crime, it's based on hypocracy - in this case, American sex hypocracy. It was tragic to see feminists of the 70's claiming that prostitutes were noble independent women making their living off sex. In truth most of them are abused and enslaved women facing death from AIDS or an abusive customer. I disavowed my older brother when I discovered he hired hookers on a regular basis; that act makes him a slaveowner.

[Harper_is_Bush]

267. K&R

If this don't surpass that "please come back" thread then priorities are mixed up.

[omega minimo]

274. "Blame the Victim" conveniently prevents the reflection you are inviting

"The controversy is clouded by our fascination with court cases."

"We don't have to "try this case" in the media -- but the media is EXACTLY where we look for a REFLECTION of ourselves."

The images of women on TV, courtesy of --for example-- the CSI franchise, contributes to the dehumanization and objectification of women, which contributes to brutal behavior and brutal attitudes.

In parsing out all the ways women "ask for it" folks can forget about the responsibility of men to act human and treat women as human beings.

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

280. wikipedia, on rape (victim blaming -- this is really good)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

It has been proposed that one cause of victim-blaming is the "just world hypothesis". People who believe that the world has to be fair, may find it hard or impossible to accept a situation in which a person is unfairly and badly hurt for no cause or reason. This leads to a sense that, somehow, the victim must have surely done 'something' to deserve their fate.

Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability. This inspires people to believe that rape only happens to those who deserve or provoke the assault (Schneider et. al., 1994). This is a way of feeling safer. If the potential victim avoids the behaviours of the past victims then they themselves will remain safe and feel less vulnerable.

A global survey of attitudes toward sexual violence by the Global Forum for Health Research <8> shows that victim-blaming concepts are at least partially accepted in many countries. In some countries, victim-blaming is more common, and women who have been raped are sometimes deemed to have behaved improperly. Often, these are countries where there is a significant social divide between the freedoms and status afforded to men and women.

[omega minimo]

297. There's that sense of entitlement again

rearing its clueless, ugly head there between every line.....

"It has been proposed that one cause of victim-blaming is the "just world hypothesis". People who believe that the world has to be fair, may find it hard or impossible to accept a situation in which a person is unfairly and badly hurt for no cause or reason."

Another question: fair for WHOM? This is a worldview they're talkin about here..................

"This leads to a sense that, somehow, the victim must have surely done 'something' to deserve their fate."

Because one can't relate at all to the victim by virtue of being...................

"Another theory entails the need to protect one's own sense of invulnerability."

There it is again..................

"In some countries, victim-blaming is more common, and women who have been raped are sometimes deemed to have behaved improperly. Often, these are countries where there is a significant social divide between the freedoms and status afforded to men and women."

Yup

[Kailassa]

437. Some women like to blame women for being raped because

that reinforces their own delusion of invulnerability.

An acquaintance was grabbed on the street and kissed by a strange man in broad daylight, and was very upset about it for months. I sympathized at first, until she started explaining to me that this grabbing was much worse than my daughter's rape was (she was my daughter's best friend,) because she had done nothing to deserve it, whereas my daughter was drugged and date-raped, which made it her fault because she shouldn't have been friends with someone who was going to do that to her.

Although she had no sympathy for her best friend, she could not understand me not being willing to listen to her tale of woe any more.

Perhaps if she had not been so conceited about the notion that she was "good" and life was "fair", and so she was bound to be safe, she might have been able to put her experience into perspective.

[marions ghost]

445. absolutely

women blame women for being raped because they need the "delusion of invulnerability." Your story is a good illustration of how this works. Right, the notion that if you are good nothing bad should happen to you, is played out in our culture--courts, schools, churches, TV--everywhere you see this twisted
version of morality, this holier than thou defensiveness, calculated to maintain the Status Quo.

It's a sad thing to have to raise daughters and nieces to fear the sexual predators in our midst, but at this point (with no societal efforts to really change things) it's better than having them learn the hard way. Despite warnings, they may learn the hard way anyway. Sorry to hear about your daughter. Please let her know that she is in a large sisterhood, and she need not feel shame or that she deserved this in any way. You sound like a mother who has it under control. She is lucky to have such an ally...not every young rape victim does.

[Kailassa]

450. Thanks. I've always liked a quote from an old Sufi mystic.

"Injuries create holes in our shells for the light of heaven to shine in through."

(Paraphrased because I remember the meaning, not the words.)

We don't have to fear the injuries done to us, only the injuries we might do to others.

The former we learn from and grow through, the latter sap the innocent joy from life and leave us burdened and in pain.

Some feeling of shame is inevitable, it's always hard to believe in your heart that you did not somehow deserve it. But seeing that other rape victims feel the same way makes all the difference, and helps one heal.

:grouphug:

[bloom]

317. I have to wonder

if some of these guys who don't want the Duke guys to be prosecuted imagine that it could be them.

You might like this - I don't agree with everything - but it's an interesting discussion - "Theory of Rape"


One snip:

"These findings are consistent with the proposition that sexual aggression is learned from confederates. Since sexual aggression is disproportionately an act of the young (Amir, 1971; Bureau of Justice Statistics 1988; Koss and Uros 1981; Koss 1985), it is plausible that some adolescent male groups control and enforce gender expectations which make sexual aggression acceptable conduct.

...The content of these peer communications includes a callous orientation toward sexual activity that grants little respect to a woman's expressed wishes. Evidence about pair and group rapes support the same point. These data suggest that public participation in group rape affirms to one's peers that one meets an important standard of masculinity, viz., heterosexual sexual intercourse (see Amir 1971; Brownmiller 1975; Groth 1979; Sussman and Bordwell 1981).

It is not the argument of this paper that a feminist - conflict analysis is entirely valid. At several points, the position fails. Rather, the argument is that sex role socialization practices in North America maintain macro structural conditions Sanday found to facilitate high rates of sexual aggression. This constellation of socialization practices is not found in all North American Communities - its strength varies. The point is that rates of sexual aggression are part of a broader social pattern that includes (1) the social organization of power between the genders, (2) gender socialization experiences, (3) the meaning of masculinity and femininity, (4) the role of sexuality in all of these and (5) ideological themes which unify the elements. The subsequent analysis explores some of these connections...."

[nashville_brook]

344. yep -- really like that analysis

i think there really is something to the age-specificity of this kind of crime. you just don't hear about gang rapes happening among groups of middle-aged men. at least, outside of prison and military prison.

sexual aggression as part of a wider pattern of socio-political organization. yep. that's the ticket.

i can attest to fluctuations in sexually aggressive cultures across the south and southeast. it ain't uniform. ergo, it's not a biological, chemical thing. it's learned. it's reinforced.

and, that's why i think this thread is so important. we don't need to dance around issues of race and class and culture in this controversy -- IT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT. but i couldn't come right out and say that, b/c my thread would get locked -- :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

360. Makes sense to me

I've noticed that the notorious leering construction workers or other groups of males (starting at age 13 or so) who make lewd comments to random women on the street are ALWAYS in groups. You don't see a lone man thrusting his hips and saying, "Let me put it there, baby!"

It has nothing to do with the physical attractiveness of the woman in question, either. In fact, making raunchy remarks to a woman who is not considered conventionally attractive is considered a hugely funny joke.

After many years, I finally concluded that my mother was right. The best response to these immature jerks is to ignore them, because if one of those blockheads gets any kind of response from a woman, especially if it's hostile, he "wins."

And no, those remarks are not "funny." Given the danger of rape, having groups of men making obscene remarks and gestures inevitably seems threatening.

Maybe that's why inadequate men who know that they're no match for a real women indulge in such cheap exhibitionism.

[KitchenWitch]

300. Kicked and Recommended

I do like that ad campaign!

[bloom]

361. "Theory of Rape"

For the most part- ? is arguing against Brownmiller's contention that rape is not about sex. "One influential school of Feminist analysis has desexualized rape, treating it merely as an extreme form of violence by men against women (Brownmiller 1975; Media and Thompson 1974)" And yet - while doing so - it seems that he makes the case that rape is about power over women and disdain for women.

"...On the one hand, authority and access to socially valued resources is greater for males than for females. In contrast, the normative structure of erotic interaction assigns to women control of sexual access. Therefore, normatively, a man is controlled by a person of lower rank for heterosexual sexual gratification. So long as a woman complies with (or does not seriously thwart) his wishes, there is no structural tension. When a woman appears to tease or to deny a man what he perceives as legitimate access, he is controlled by his structural subordinate. At one level, males commonly perceive this situation as one in which women control the degree of intimacy allowed. This is a correct perception of the normative structure. His perception may lead to mild resentment and some frustration, while evoking little anger, little hostility, or little disdain.

In contrast, some men articulate this experience as a situation where women are niggardly dispensers of a valued commodity; some men deeply resent female normative control over sexual access. This view is preserved and perpetuated by some male peer groups.

For such peer groups, rape myths, general sexually callous beliefs and callous orientations toward erotic interaction do important ideological work; they transform female normative control of erotic activity into (perceived) deviance against men. The causal nexus among gender stratification, erotic interaction, and sexual aggression lies here. Male resentment of women originates (in part) from a cynical portrayal of women's motives in erotic interaction and leads to the portrayal of her proper role in sexual activity as parallel to that in most other cross sex contexts. The requisite ideological work is performed by sexually callous views of women and by callous orientations toward erotic interaction. Since, normatively, males are seekers of sexual intimacy while females are the controllers, males are normatively dependent upon females for heterosexual sexual activity. In this very important social arena, social norms place women in control of the valued resource. ... These views amount to the belief that sex can be aggressively used to enforce the ``proper'' dominance pattern between the sexes....

Thus, sex symbolically becomes domination and rape myths legitimate sexual aggression (1) by transforming normative female control of sexual access into female deviance toward men, (2) by excusing male aggressive use of sex to reestablish the ``proper'' dominance relationship, and (3) by portraying the victim as both deserving and enjoying her treatment. Simply put, rape myths excuse, legitimate and celebrate male structural domination by portraying privilege in sexual interaction as consistent with privilege in general gender stratification...."

http://wwwcj.mnstate.edu/classes/CJ400/Monograph/Theory.html

Where you have the Duke case the perceived power by the team and the disdain of the woman because of her profession, class, race? (or all women) just would have added to the already toxic thought processes of the alleged rapists.

"Ryan McFadyen's email to the team was a reference to the book and movie, "American Psycho". Apparently, this was a bit of a cult favorite among Duke Lacrosse team members.... some of these guys admittedly seemed to spend a large amount of their time thinking about extremely graphic violence against women of a sexual nature, and they and others see absolutely nothing problematic about that."

http://redstatefeminist.blogspot.com / Wednesday, April 12, 2006

Still, convicted rapists differ from other offenders in two sociologically significant ways:

Rapists have higher levels of sexual arousal to depictions of rape and other violence against women than non rapists.
Rapists have more callous attitudes towards rape and other sexually aggressive conduct, including a greater acceptance of rape myths than non rapists.
In short, rapists have deviant sexual attitudes and they have a deviant pattern of sexual arousal.

...there is a relatively strong correlation in the ``normal'' male population between acceptance of rape supportive attitudes and sexual aggression, however measured. For example, Koss et al (1985) report that self reported sexually aggressive college males differed from the non sexually aggressive males in four ways:

they accepted sexual aggressiveness as normal;
they saw cross sex relations as largely adversarial;
they held conservative attitudes towards female sexuality and
they accepted rape myths as descriptively accurate.

Second, these beliefs ideologically legitimate sexual aggression.

Third, these views are based upon early sexual socialization and are available as a touchstone for sexual activity and relationships. These are the cognitive foundation of a callous orientation toward erotic interaction.

The Schwendingers (1983) show that rape myths and negative views of women are learned in adolescent single sex peer groups. Ageton (1983) identified 63 sexually aggressive adolescent males in a national longitudinal sample who held attitudes supportive of sexual assault prior to their aggressive acts. These beliefs were not held by sexually non aggressive males. Further, these attitudes and behaviors were strongly influenced by delinquent peers.

http://wwwcj.mnstate.edu/classes/CJ400/Monograph/Theory.html

[nashville_brook]

402. this goes a long way to bridging the gap

intuitively, there's a sexual aspect to rape. it's not sex. it's like a cucumber that's now a pickle -- aufheben.

[Kailassa]

438. It's every bit as sexual as a guy punishing a girl by burning

down her house, and getting off on the flames produced. Burning a house down is not sex, even if it's done in revenge for not being granted sex and the perp finds it sexually arousing.

And physically invading the body of an unwilling victim is not sex either. It is many bad things, including violence, but it is not sex.

[LostinVA]

452. Very, very good analogy

Or a guy getting an erection by beating up his wife.

[bloom]

486. I've been thinking about

How the author of that "theory of rape" paper - posted on some college website - seemed so attached to the idea that rape is about sex (even though most of his arguments did NOT support that). And how certain posters around here spend so much energy insisting on their point of view. It seems that it not so much that they care if women agree with them or not - but it is SO important for them to give legitimacy to the idea that rape is a form of sex.

I think what we are seeing is this manifested on a message board:


"...it is plausible that some adolescent male groups control and enforce gender expectations which make sexual aggression acceptable conduct.

...The content of these peer communications includes a callous orientation toward sexual activity that grants little respect to a woman's expressed wishes."

-----------------

I think it would be a big step forward for women if such views were not accepted. It's easy for the "rape is sex" crowd to yell "censorship" because they don't care if WE agree with them as long as their ideas are accepted enough to be part of the discussion.

It does seem like it practically an obligation to insist that sex is one thing and rape is another. I think men who insist that rape is a form of sex are trying to assert and maintain their dominant world view.

Taken to extreme - people who have no concept of mutuality and equality could view all "sex" as rape. It seems that some men get rather bent out of shape when some women have said something to that effect. But when you see these men go on and on and on that rape is a form of sex as if there is no difference - well - I for one can see how the feminists got there in their thinking.

Here is "twisty fasters" take on the subject:

"...But our culture’s fascination for dominance and submission turns women into commodified fetish objects. This means sex isn’t just sex, it’s the eroticization of a culturally enforced power differential. Women aren’t fully human, but are instead just a collection of moist holes into which men not only can, but must ejaculate their hatred, their frustration, their fear, their crushing sense of inferiority, and whatever other vulgar impulses drive them to dominate anything that moves."

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/04/18/he-touched-my-special-gray-area/

------

Twisty's take is a rather cynical view. And certainly heterosexual women would rather see sex as more positive than that. Because if that is what sex is (to a considerable percentage of men)- rape - and women are "commodified fetish objects" - lesbianism would seem like a good choice.

The more that sports/power/the military/money/violence are glorified (and intertwined) and the more that gonzo porn is where men learn their lessons about what sex is - the more this is going to be a problem.

[Cats Against Frist]

456. Of course there is a "sexual" aspect to rape

If there weren't, pornography and erotica wouldn't be CHOCK FULL of rape fantasies, on both the part of men and women. I think that the increasing popularity of anal sex in born is an extension of rape, as a response to female sexual liberation.

I don't, however, think it's so simple that all rapes can be pigeonholed. Some are very much about sex. Some are about sociopathy. Some are about power.

The reason it has to be "one or the other" is because only the extreme position justifies the extreme viewpoints that are being presented.

[Kailassa]

461. So rape is a response to female sexual liberation?

At first I made the mistake of believing you to be a deluded old bat, but I apologize for that assumption. I can see now just how wrong I was.

I realize now you are doing a spoof of "the deluded old bat" and are posting just to brighten up our day by injecting some humour into the thread.

But pehaps you should make it clear to everyone you are joking, lest anyone make the mistake of taking you seriously.

[Cats Against Frist]

463. I think that "pushing the boundaries"

of pornography/erotica, further, is not only a response to female sexual liberation, but all sexual liberation. Everyone wants a "new taboo" to fantasize over. It's the desire for sensationalism, adventure, etc.

I'm all for female sexual liberation -- but when that "sexual liberation" simply equals no shame at pandering to violent male fantasies, I get a little skeptical. Seems to me that a healthy sexuality wouldn't involve pawing at strange naked women, rape fantasy, "barely legal," and powdering, shaving and hussy-ing up like the exact portrait of male titillation.

Again -- will you stop and listen to the points I'm trying to make?

[Kailassa]

467. I've listened, I've understood, and I'm still laughing.

Honestly, you should try listening to yourself one day. You might laugh too.

:evilgrin:

[Cats Against Frist]

468. I'm glad you're laughing, instead of trying to provide a discussion

[Kailassa]

479. "Trying to provide a discussion" ... yess ...

That's what my little friend calls it, too.

[Cats Against Frist]

480. You're good -- I bet no one ever thought of an ad hominem attack before

I'm done discussing this, unless you're going to address the issues.

[LostinVA]

482. You have a PM, Grasshopper

[Hekate]

366. Excellent, excellent post. Thanks; hope it provokes thought

I've been amazed and distressed at some of the things said here at DU on this issue. Anyone who sits with your questions awhile will come away the better for it.

Hekate

[nonconformist]

374. This is along the same lines of something I've been saying for years

If I strip naked and lay in the street and scream for someone to come and fuck me, and the moment a man comes up to me I change my mind, but he holds me down while I scream "NO!" and fucks me anyway, it's RAPE. PERIOD.

The above scenario isn't responsible or even sane, but you know what - IT'S STILL RAPE.

[SammyBlue]

447. I'm seeing in the mirror someone who just flat

doesn't give two shits about this entire case.

This is only being blown up because it happened at Duke. If this happened in some trailer park, we'd hear nothing about it.

But because interscholastic athletes at a very posh and expensive private University may be involved, it's all over the headlines.

If she got raped (not saying one way or another), prosecute. If the Duke players were involved (not saying one way or another), crucify. But, frankly (as Rhett Butler would say) "frankly, my dear, I give a damn."

nominated.

[autorank]

483. One of the most thought provoking ever on DU...Recommended

25% of female high school graduates are sexually ASSAULTED by the time they graduate.

That's a national disgrace.

Why don't we hear that figure?

Oh, because people have to mouth off and be contrarian regarding charges like the Duke case as though it's some skeptics festival.

How about this fact!

[porphyrian]

496. I'm deleted for calling people dishonest, yet I'm called a rapist...

...a rapist supporter and a misogynist for not toeing the popular line and suggesting that rape does have sexual elements. That's just fucking great. The irony of this is that I am actually interested, with personal investment, in finding a real solution to ending rape and helping rape victims, and the sycophants who've attacked me for it are the ones trying to squelch honest discussion.

[Kailassa]

499. It's fair enough really.

If I was to call you a liar this post would be deleted too.

[porphyrian]

504. I believe the posts calling me those things still stand. - n/t

[bettyellen]

511. u implied people had experience w/a sex crime, they asked the same of you

since you mentioned intimate knowledge of rapes. seems like it's only okay when you imply it, eh?
it's a fair question, but it seems to have hit a nerve.

context is a bitch, huh?

[porphyrian]

532. Keep stabbing, eventually you might hit something. - n/t

[bettyellen]

539. well i busted up your pity party.....bwaaah poor you!

so misunderstood!
:cry:

[Name removed]

541. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

543. what i don't understand is you faking shock and indignation...

and trying to drum up sympathy because someome would ask the same questions of you that you asked of every single person who disagreed with you.

[porphyrian]

544. Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe you should stop trying to guess my motives. You obviously aren't very good at it.

[Lerkfish]

523. FWIW, I thought your exchange with me should not have been purged.

I thought you were being outrageous in how you argued, but I thought your posts should stand in order to provide context to my replies to them. Removing them has the bizarre consequence of making ME seem to be the outrageous one. Context is everything.
I would have preferred to let yours stand and let people come to their own conclusions.

:)

I would edit to add, though, that I felt your posts in the other exchanges were beyond the pale and should have be deleted.
Luckily I don't make those decisions.

[porphyrian]

531. You have a talent for exaggeration.

Beyond the pale my ass. I simply try to say that there is a sexual element to rape and that denying that is false, and people jump my shit. I'm right, and at this point I don't really care who agrees.

[Lerkfish]

545. Gee, has it occurred to you as strange that EVERYONE seems against you?

When everyone seems against you, time to peek in a mirror. Maybe they have a valid point.

maybe its not the content but the tone of your posts. Most certainly you aren't silver-tongued. You have a talent for ticking people off unnecessarily.

Mods, you can delete this post if you desire. I have no reason to ever post in response to this poster again.

[porphyrian]

546. I don't think it's everyone, it's a handful of people who are...

...passionately wrong. It wouldn't matter if no one else believed what I do. I'm right.

[Vinnie From Indy]

542. LOL!

It also isn't a bird, plane or cocnut.

[Bucky]

549. Thank you for posting this. Here's the ad link

all the images are here:

http://www.lacaaw.org/notinvitation.html

[nashville_brook]

564. wow -- thanks for this!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

574. Hmm.

Going down your list:

Does it make a difference to you that the accuser is an exotic dancer?

:- Potentially slightly: I suspect that men are more likely to rape exotic dancers than other women.

Does it make a difference to you that she is black and the accused are white? How so?

:- I don't think so. It might be worth taking into account the fact that a black woman accusing white men is less likely to be believed, making making a false allegation an even less attractive prospect, but I think that that's probably negligable as I doubt a woman contemplating making a false allegation of rape would think in those term.

Does it make a difference to you that she returned to finish the gig? Why might she have done that?

:- Slightly: I think that it's far from impossible, or even unlikely, that she would have done so if she had been raped, but still marginally less likely than that she would have done so if she hadn't, and as such it makes me slghtly less inclined to believe her than I would otherwise have been.

Do you think she has a motivation for reporting a crime? Or for not-reporting a crime?

:- The motivation for reporting a genuine rape is obvious - the chance (albeit depressingly slim) of getting your attacker convicted. There are various possible motivations for falsely reporting rape - money from the media, attention, or (possibly more likely) personal reasons. There are very, very strong reasons indeed not to report rape if you have been raped - making a rape allegation is extremely traumatic - but arguably this would be less of a factor if one hadn't actually been raped.

Does it matter that she is economically less advantaged than the accused? Is she a gold-digger?

:- Slightly. It's not a possibility that can be ruled out, but my understanding is that genuine rape victims outnumber women who falsely allege it for profit many, many times over.

What about the DNA? Can there be a rape without a positive, one-to-one DNA match?

:- Yes, obviously. On the other hand, equally obviously it would weigh more heavily in favour of believing the woman if there were than if there aren't.

What about the power structure in Raleigh/Durham? How do the cards stack? Against accuser. Or accused?

:- I don't know, and I'm not sure that one can build up a reliable picture from media reports. As to the cards, I think they're stacked in favour of the accused, as they have to be (and I think should be, alas): she has to prove her case beyond all reasonable doubt.


Well, there's my "code".

[Francine Frensky]

575. Women: if we allow ourselves to be viewed as OBJECTS

which is what pornography/strip clubs/escorts is all about, women as objects instead of people, then guess what?? We'll be treated like OBJECTS. It's not that hard to understand. Objects can be treated roughly, and sometimes, oops, broken. Objects can be thrown away when they get old or are broken. Objects are just objects and are replaceable. With a steady stream of young girls turning 18 each year, there's a never-ending supply of objects, so prices are low, low, and the objects can be handled as roughly as men please.

This isn't black vs. white, this isn't conservative vs. liberal...this is men and their objects vs. women and dignity. Anybody catch Stephen A. Smith and Bill Mahler on HBO last night?? Smith said what happened at Duke happens at fraternities all across the country and he admitted that he had done the same thing: guys hire strippers and then sex is happening, no big deal. And nobody reacted, Bill just nodded and said yeah, yeah, that's how it is.... personally it disgusted me and I turned off the tv. This is the "liberal" take. It was just like O'Reilly saying this woman put herself in a bad situation, what did she expect? So all men agree: THIS is where our US culture is right now, on the right AND the left: women are objects, and men (and plenty of women) are ok with that.

There's a REASON only 2% of law partners are women, only 1% of CEO's are women: the men who run this country and run all the companies and law firms in this country, were all frat boys at one point and all behaved as Smith did. They may recognize a few women here and there as the superstars they are, but women as a whole will NEVER be taken seriously, will never be recognized as human beings with inherent dignity and on an equal playing field with men, will never be given basic legal protections, until we get away from the porn culture. Porn and discrimination are connected hand in hand. Sadly, I think the porn culture is winning, and women are doomed to be raped and abused and treated like objects for generations.

[Kailassa]

581. If there was anything in your argument ...

women would have been "recognized as human beings with inherent dignity and on an equal playing field with men," and been "given basic legal protections," before porn became so prevalent.

There is no point in spouting off a theory as though it is a fact, if your theory cannot even meet the most basic standards of proof.

There is far less porn available in a strict Islamic society, but do you see women there being treated better than they are here?

I wonder if you realize just how much pornography features men. The one time I nervously walked into an "adult store" to see what it was like, I was surprised to find aisles full of videos and magazines featuring males. Do you think this is resulting in men treating men as objects?

The biggest flaw in your argument is that you suggest that men are feeling free to have sex with women without there agreement because they are seeing women as objects. How often does it need to be repeated that rape is not sex? Rape is frequently a premeditated act of violence, and the perpetrators are not doing it out of lust, they are doing it out of a wish to express hatred together.

And why do these sort of men hate women? Certainly not because they have seen strippers or porn movies.

Hatred generally comes from despising something within yourself, and then projecting what you despise onto another person. Bullies hate the weakess they knows exists within themselves, so they try to kill two birds with one stone, making themselves look/feel stronger, while punishing or eliminating the person they have projected their weakness onto. And rape is simply the ultimate form of bullying.