Abortion question (who gets to decide?)

[Squatch]

This thread got me to thinking, and I'm sure this has been discussed on DU before.

Who gets to decide if there will be an abortion when one of the parties involved does not want that to happen?

1) Situation 1: Woman becomes pregnant, man wants woman to have an abortion, woman wants to keep the child.

2) Situation 2: Woman becomes pregnant, woman wants to have an abortion, man wants to keep the child.

[SharonAnn]

1. The woman.

[calico1]

2. 1. Woman

2. Woman

In every single pregnancy there is always a chance that there can be medical complications. That means the woman is the one always at potential risk during a pregnancy. As long as this remains so, it should be the woman's final decision. When men get the ability to become pregnant then they can decide.


spelling

[fasttense]

3. The bottom line, it is her body, she gets to decide.

If he was so concerned about making sure every egg he fertilizes becomes a human then he should have ..... (fill in the blank).... Most women don't go around aborting their fetuses unless they have a good reason (or live in China or India, where female babies are not wanted, which is probably a good reason for them.)

[seeminer21]

7. Then what is your response to...

...the assertion that the man shouldn't have to pay child support if she doesn't agree to abort? (Not necessarily MY assertion, but it is a dilemma)

[LisaL]

13. If he doesn't want child support, he should think

about it before conception takes place.

[hiaasenrocks]

23. Here is some info on male reproductive rights.

http://www.nas.com/c4m/

[SmokingJacket]

4. If it's your body, you have the last word.

A little fringe benefit for putting your health on the line.

[CornField]

5. The woman because it is her body

That being said, of all my friends (and myself) who have had abortions and/or considered having an abortion, I do not know of one who did not listen to and discuss the situation with the man. That's ideal, but even when it is not an ideal situation, the woman has to make the final choice in relation to abortion and has to live with all the consequences of her own actions or inactions.

[Yupster]

6. It has to be the woman every time

It would be best for both to agree, but in this issue you just can't have a 1-1 tie, so it must be the woman's right to choose.

But shouldn't there be a man's right to choose too? A woman must have the right to decide when she becomes a mother. Shouldn't a man get to decide wen he becomes a father too?

Here's the fairest proposal I've been able to come up with.

Woman finds out she's pregnant.

She has a fixed amount of time to attempt to inform the possible fathers.

The father has a fixed amount of time to fill out an official government form either taking on the burdens of fatherhood, or declining them.

If the man agrees to fatherhood, he is agreeing to the rights of faherhood and the financial burdens too. If he declines, he is giving up all rights and responsibilities toward the child.

The woman then, armed with this info decides whether to continue or terminate the pregnancy. It's complately her decision.

With this proposal the woman gets to decide whether she will be a mother or not, and the man gets to decide whether he will be a father or not.

It's not completely fair as an abortion will sometimes still happen even if the father deeply wants the kid, but that can't be helped.

Someone has to have final say, and that someone must be the woman.

Her final say should not extend past herself though. She should not be able to obligate the man by her say.

How's that for an attempt at equity?

[seeminer21]

8. I agree

that this is the scenario is fair. I do worry about men being able to so easily opt out of his "responsiblities" to the child once he/she is born, but what can you do?

[Yupster]

9. My proposal wouldn't allow that

The man would have to exercise his right to choose within just a few days of being informed of the pregnancy.

Once he agrees to shoulder his reponsibilities, then he can't legally opt out later. He would have legally agreed in writing.

[calico1]

10. Once a child is born it is both parents

responsibility to care for it. I don't think most States make it easy for a father to "opt out" of supporting a child. I don't think the above proposal would ever gain much support.

[CornField]

11. It isn't an equitable situation

I agree with you up to a point -- that point being the end of the pregnancy. Once that happens, we no longer have a situation between two people, but a situation between three.

I realize we've had this discussion before, but let me reinterate: Men do have a choice and they do have rights. Their choices and rights take place prior to pregnancy. At that point, the man has a final say over what happens to his own body. It's basic biology.

[Yupster]

32. that is the pro-life argument

that you made your choice when you decided to have sex.

I respect their opinion. They are at least consistent, but I don't agree with the pro-lifers. I am a pro-choicer and firmly believe a person should choose whether they become parents or not.

That decision should not be forced onto either parent without their consent.

[calico1]

34. Now you seem to be adding to the pro choice view

the choice of whether or not to take responsibility for a child that is already born or one you know is going to be born. Sorry but I don't understand your point of view. I am firmly pro choice. I am pro choice with regard to when to have children and whether or not to carry the fetus to term or to have an abortion. However, the window for choice ends when the baby is born or when you know it is going to be born. You can no longer at that point decide that even though its yours you really don't want to take responsibility for it--- Although lord knows men try that every day. :eyes:

[CornField]

39. It isn't an argument at all... it is BIOLOGY

Pregnancy is a medical condition. Abortion is a medical procedure. Only the person who must undergo either one can decide which, if either.

If you, as a man, feel your biological and therefore legal choice are limited by your gender, I would suggest that you lobby the government to research a 100% effective method of birth control -- preferably one which is totally in your control to implement. Until that time comes, however, I would suggest that men who do not wish to become fathers voice their opinions to the women they plan to have intercourse with BEFORE that intercourse takes place.

BTW, the pro-life argument is about NOT having sex until you wish to reproduce. That's not at all what I'm advocating or addressing in my posts. Go and have sex all you like. If you are a man, however, you need to understand the risks involved with your own actions. Likewise, if you are woman, you need to understand the risks involved with your own actions. It isn't that difficult to understand.

As a side note, I'm guessing from the sheer magnitude of your posts on this subject that you or someone close to you has been "hoodwinked" by a woman. I'm very sorry that happened. It is not appropriate, nor healthy, however to punish any children which resulted from such actions. It is also not healthy to continue to live in a dream world. Men do not have a say over a woman's body and (if I have anything to do with it) they never will again. The time for you or the man you are close to then to make the decision on fatherhood or not, came at the time of conception. Again, I apologize that you (or him) didn't make better choices.

[LisaL]

14. Not going to happen.

[LisaL]

12. Regardless, woman is the one who decides.

[dogday]

15. This is the biggest issue because this is

the one thing men cannot control. As long as the woman is the one who carries and takes the risks, it has to ultimately be her choice. I believe this is why men get so upset over the abortion issue, they have no control on this...

[calico1]

16. But men do have control over who

they have sex with so what men can and should do is think before they act and put a little more thought into choosing partners.

[dogday]

19. In these days and times

you would think pregnancy would not be too much of an issue anymore. Men should be wrapping it up and preventing it from happening along with protection from disease.

[hiaasenrocks]

20. Couldn't the same be said about a woman?

I'm pretty ambivalent on the abortion issue. Don't care if it's legal or not. But I'm interested in your statement because I see no reason to believe that a woman doesn't have control over the people she has sex with (excluding rape), and I also think she can think before she acts and use birth control or demand that the man does as well. Both partners have a responsibility.

[dogday]

24. I said in these days and times

when disease is so commonplace, it would seem like the man would be taking precautions to protect himself from disease, therefore also preventing pregnancy. I believe it is up to both people to take precautions for pregnancy. I don't think one has a right more than the other. I said since men are having to take extra precautions to prevent the spread of VD, then the pregnancy issue should not be as prevalent as it used to...

[hiaasenrocks]

25. I was responding to calico1's post.

But you're right: both partners have an equal choice and responsibility at the time of conception. Excluding rape, of course. And I guess the failure rate of condoms is relevant, but I don't know the statistics on that.

[Yupster]

33. For me the failure rate of condoms

is pretty important.

My one kid was born when a condom slipped off.

In our case it wasn't that big a deal as we were married and considering having a kid anyway. The decision was just pushed a little quicker than we expected.

But I am aware of condom failures.

[fasttense]

27. You have now changed the discussion topic.

The original posted question did not give us the choice of if the woman was pregnant or not. The woman is pregnant and the question is who makes the final decision. Of course the woman should have taken all appropriate and reasonably precautions prior to the pregnancy. I assumed that in the original post.

[hiaasenrocks]

30. No, I responded directly to the statements in the post

to which I responded. Not the original post.

[calico1]

29. Yes, a woman should act responsibly.

However many men still are of the opinion that birth control is a woman's responsibility. That its something she should take care of. Men should never assume it is being taken care of. Some men will have sex with a woman and just take her word that she is using birth control. Think before choosing a partner. "Wrap it up" as someone else said.

[hiaasenrocks]

21. This is why men get upset over it?

Why do pro-life women get upset? Same reason?

[Bridget Burke]

17. The woman chooses.

If the expectant parents have a real relationship, she will consider his wishes as she makes the decision. In fact, they should have discussed the matter earlier.

Beware, men! There are evil devil women out there who will trick you into having unprotected sex, just so they can live in luxury on your child support payments! Suggestion: Freeze some sperm & have a vasectomy. Continue to have regular tests--things can grow back. When you find a woman worthy of your seed, have it implanted. Just to be sure, have DNA tests ASAP!

[Scout]

18. the woman

if a man is going to worry about his sperm, he should be more careful where he leaves it...

[hiaasenrocks]

22. Legally, the woman gets the choice.

I guess in certain relationships, depending upon the individuals involved, it may be a shared decision.

[Bridget Burke]

26. In a good relationship, the man usually gets a say.

Even after his initial "input."

But unprotected sex with someone you don't know very well can have worse consequences than an unplanned pregnancy. Of course, the woman should consider protection, herself. She WILL bear the brunt of an unwanted pregnancy, either through getting an abortion or becoming a single mother. NO woman I ever knew who got child support was able to live in luxury--even when the checks arrived on time.

But much of the recent "noise" has come from men worrying about having to pay child support. Protection, boys!

[johnnie]

28. The woman

But I think that if two people are gonna start screwing, they should discuss things before the deed. Of course that's not always doable.

[DanCa]

31. Before sex is the only time the man gets to decide

All the other times it's up to the woman as the emotional and physical is on the woman.

[Warpy]

35. Her body, her risk, her decision

End of discussion.

You don't want to produce a pregnancy, wear a condom. That's where YOUR choice comes in.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. I Think There Should Have To Be Mutual Agreement To Abort, If That Was The

choice. If the father is 100% against aborting his child, then I think the woman should have to prove in court the merits of why aborting the child in that one situation would be more valid than the man's reasons for wanting to keep it.

[CornField]

37. As soon as men can carry a child without the aid of woman

then men will have a say. Until that time, however, pregnancy (and all the risks and benefits that go along with it) is something which can only happen to a female. No one else other than the woman - and that includes the courts - should be allowed to have a say as to which medical procedures a woman elects to have or not have.

This truly is a non-negotiable thing. When it comes to circumstances which deal with your own body and your own medical care, no one should make the decisions other than you. Period.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Sorry, But That's A Crock In My Opinion. Women Don't Own Reproduction

It takes both sexes. If it didn't need both, than woman alone would be asexually able to reproduce. Just because they are the environment in which the child initially grows does not give them 100% control over the life giving process. Gee, just imagine if every woman in the world decided to no longer give birth and our species vanished, because men have no stake in reproduction.

Sorry, but just because the rules of nature have it that the child is grown in a woman, does not make her the owner of reproduction. It takes both, and both should carry equal weight in the terms of wanting the child, when that want is sincere and there is no overcoming reason that requires an abortion.

I am against abortion for most cases, but would not force that will on others wholesale. Women have the right to terminate their pregnancy. But that shouldn't apply if the father 100% wants the child, as he should ABSOLUTELY have some power in that decision, since the child is half created due to him.

On edit, let me make clear that the reverse should apply as well. A man's desire should carry no weight when he wants to terminate a pregnancy but the mother wants to keep it.

[CornField]

40. Why should a man be able to force a woman through pregnancy, labor, etc.?

Why? While you are at it, please name the various medical conditions and procedures in which a woman should be able to force the man. I think, after reading your words in the post above, that you'd find rape not only necessary but a right given to men. After all, if women don't want to carry men's children to term, men should be able to force them. If women don't want to procreate with men, I can only guess the same would be true.

It goes back to what I've typed over and over here at DU - Before you have intercourse with a person, you should have a discussion of such matters with that person. Failure to do so is simply idiotic and irresponsible.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. What An Absurd Comparison

It is almost laughable.

Furthermore, as far as the what medical conditions a woman should have say over within a man, name me a condition in a man upon which the woman is 50% responsible for not only creating but also in the outcome of and we can start the debate there.

Thanks.

[CornField]

45. Fine. VD.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. How is she responsible for 50% after he is infected?

Not to mention what would she want to control about it? You saying she should have the power to force him to get it treated, if she's the one who gave it to him? I'm sorry if that was the best example you could give.


Have no idea how you arrived at her bearing 50% responsibility for his medical care after he's infected though. Never had I heard such a thing. I would think this doesn't meet either of the criteria set forth.

I'm a gracious man though, so I wouldn't mind one bit if you tried again :)

[Yupster]

44. I can symapthize with a man

who deeply wants his kid and the mother aborts it.

However, the choice has to be made by someone and since it's the woman's body it must be her choice.

People will talk about a woman and her doctor or a woman and her pastor or a woman in consultation with her partner, but that's all crap.

If a woman wants an abortion and her pastor, doctor and partner all disagree with her, it shouldn't matter.

It's the woman's body and she should control it.

My problem is with the woman who makes this choice for herself and then makes the choice for her partner too that he must be a dad whether he wants to or not.

I think that's overstepping her right to choose.

The man should have a right to choose whether he's ready to be a parent too.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. "I think that's overstepping her right to choose"

Absolutely. And I am coming from the direction that the man's wholehearted desire to raise his child rather than having his child killed should in fact weigh more than her right to choose.

This is the only scenario that comes readily into my mind upon which I would condone overriding that right. (though I personally think non-medically necessary abortions after like 4 months is abhorable. Difference is I'd fight legally for the former, but the latter is for God to judge, not me.)

[Yupster]

49. I sympathize, but

the problem is that you just can't have a tie vote.

If the man wants one thing and the woman another, then one or the other of them must win and the other lose.

I think since it's the woman's body she has to be the tie-breaking vote, which means the only vote.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. And I Don't See It That Way. The Tie Breaker Should Be A Court.

Period. In the case of him wanting it to live, and her not wanting it to live, he should win out if she cannot prove to a certain threshold why aborting it is rightfully necessary.

I don't really want your sympathy, as to me it isn't an issue of sympathy. It is an issue of what is quite simply right.

[Yupster]

43. I don't think that's fair

It's the woman's body. It needs to be her choice.

However, that should be as far as her choice goes.

She should not be able to make her choice to be a mom, and then turn around and make the guy's choice for him too that he must take on the responsibilities of being a dad.

She should be able to make her choice, but he should be able to make his choice too.

People should be able to choose when they are ready to be parents.

[hopeisaplace]

42. A loving man in both cases would help a woman through

this by being there for her no matter what she's feeling...if a woman felt
more comfortable and confident that the father of her child was going to
be a full partner in this human beings life for the rest of it's life, she
may find the torment of these decisions easier, and thus be able to confidently
make the choice for the child.

It's easy for me to chose for the child..I'm not alone, I have a loving partner,
I have 100% health coverage, I have parents who are always there for me..what about
the woman who has nothing, or very near nothing, and is faced with this..wouldn't knowing
the father was 100% there for her and the child be the difference. A LAW FORCING HER
INTO THIS CHOICE DOES NOT SOLVE ANYTHING!!!

[tyedyeto]

47. Situations shouldn't matter...

the decision should be between a woman and her doctor. No one else should be involved, including the gov't.

[Yupster]

50. What if the woman says yes and the doctor says no?

Why do people say between a woman and her doctor?

Don't they just mean it should be the woman's decision?