CEO of Sago stated that the miners were 2,000 ft. away from

[ladjf]

good air and that the mine shaft was not obstructed. He further commented that if they had had wireless communication capabilities, they could have been advised to walk out of the mine.


My question: If they could have been told to walk out, why couldn't the rescuers have walked in?

[npincus]

1. excellent question

an exit is also an entrance.

[ladjf]

2. He also commented that they could have joined hands and

"felt" their way out.

The tunnel appears to be about 14 ft wide and had a two rail track to the surface. Even in the dark it shouldn't have been to difficult to follow the track.

[Mugsy]

3. 2,000 "what"?

You're not clear at all.

If they were "Within 2,000 feet of a possible exit", that's nearly half a mile, in the dark in a shaft filling with Cabon Monoxide 5x the breathable level before they reached that "good air".

[ladjf]

7. Sorry. 2,000 from good air.

I don't question the miner's decision to stay put. They did what they were trained to do. I question the rescuers decision not to go in a get them.

[Mugsy]

10. Still not getting it.

"Feet"?

If the miners had 2,000 feet between them and "good air", and remember that we only know where they were after the fact, you would have sent in rescuers into an unstable mine shaft, searching for at least a half mile in the pitch black darkness for nearly half a mile before they found the miners.

And this is all predicated on there being only *one* tunnel and/or that the rescuers knew exactly which tunnel to search.

[MercutioATC]

13. The point is that it took 10 hours from the miners to die.

There was an unobstructed shaft that led from the surface to them. Between them and "good air" WAS 2000' of that shaft and it wasn't lit, but it would have been possible for either them to walk out or (more importantly) for rescuers to just walk in. I'm thinking that could have been done somewhere in that 10-hour period.

[ohio_liberal]

17. At LEAST 10 hours

I'm thinking it was longer. The poor guys didn't know the shaft was unobstructed and didn't know there was clean air that close. They did what they were trained to do. Blame it on the lack of technology, if anything. The breathing apparatus miners use hasn't been significantly updated in 30 years.

[ladjf]

22. But, the people on the surface knew, or should have known,

that the passage was unobstructed.

[ohio_liberal]

28. They sent in that robotic device first, as I recall

It got stuck in mud and debris. I think it must've been still very smoky and visibility very poor since the ventilation fans went out immediately. The mines just don't use technology that can be adapted to meet the needs of miners. A better breathing apparatus and communications that doesn't go out in an initial blast would've saved them.

[ladjf]

31. Safety stations, stashed along the shaft walls say every 500 ft

could have made the difference.

[ohio_liberal]

37. Yep

I don't know what the state and Federal laws are exactly, but I know for sure there have to be first aid boxes located every so many feet. One of my family members told me the other day that his mine had been fined for not having a first aid box located where it was supposed to be.

[ladjf]

38. I read the other day that safety stations were required in

American mines as early as 1912. We are living in a new "dark ages". So far as the corporations are concerned human life is expendable.

[ladjf]

25. The rescuers could have marched unimpeded to within

2,000 ft. of the miners. From that point, using auxiliary air, they could have proceeded the remaining 2,000 ft. (about 1,000 small steps).

The probe feasibility: If the probe had encountered a blocked tunnel, that would have been information the rescuers needed. The obstructions could have been evaluated. Otherwise, with no blockage, the probe would have rolled down to the miners. Such devices should be required by law and placed at all mine entrances or at least close by.

[ladjf]

18. Without a doubt. Either the miners could have walked out

or, a better plan, the rescuers could have walked in.

Had they not feared another explosion, they could have simply sent one person on the regular shuttle cart. Or, a workable remote control probe vehicle could have found them quickly.

[ladjf]

16. 2,000 FEET.

According to this diagram http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060105/NEWS01/601050323/1001/NEWS

the main shaft was almost a straight line and noting the location of the air holes that were drilled, the rescuers apparently knew almost the exact location of the miners.

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060105/NEWS01/601050323/1001/NEWS


see "Sago mine diagram on right side of screen".

Eventually the rescuers did walk to the miner's location. What new information had they learned after 40 hrs that they didn't have within 10 or 15 hours? They actually could have driven the regular shuttle cart to the rescue site as there were no obstructions in the tunnel.

[ohio_liberal]

4. I just read today...

That they sent in a haphazard rescue crew right after the explosion and couldn't get through to the miners because of high carbon monoxide. :shrug:

Those guys didn't know there was good air 2,000 ft away. They did what they were trained to do.

[Drifter]

5. This is a tough situation ...

The miners did exactly what they were supposed (trained) to do.

Unfortunately, in this case the "right" thing to do was the wrong thing to do.


Analogy involving my Mother, Seat belts, and a car accident.

Along time ago, my Mother was in a serious car accident. This was at a time when no one used seat belts. She was lucky, because the impact of the crash pushed her over into the passenger side, and ultimately saved her life (because the driver compartment was crushed and unlikely survivable). If she had her seatbelt on she would have most likely died.

In this case my Mother was saved because she was NOT wearing a seatbelt.
It is generally accepted that wearing your seatbelt is better than not wearing your seat belt.
There are exceptions to this.

Cheers
Drifter

[Orrex]

6. For pity's sake!

The Kursk is within 400 feet of good, unobstructed air, but so what? If there's an impassible obstacle between you and the good air, or no way to know that good air is nearby, then it might as well be on the other side of the planet.

What's the CEO's point?

And how's this for a suggestion: since Sago's biggest fine in the past two years was $440.00, maybe they could spend all that un-fined money on a communications system.

Of course, it costs money to buy reliable Republican representation, so maybe the cash surplus isn't as big as I thought.

[LisaL]

8. Sure sounds like he is blaming the victims.

And why didn't the miners have any communication capabilities anyway?

[ohio_liberal]

Because nobody will pay for new technology

and Fed. mine safety won't make them pay for it either.

[ladjf]

9. The rescuers could have easily walked right down to where

the miners were holed up. That's a lot different from the Kirsk situation.

[Orrex]

11. Sure, but the CEO is implying that the Sago miners could have walked out

Their inability to walk out is, practically speaking, identical to the Kursk situation.

[ladjf]

12. I agree that Hatfield is obliquely suggesting that the miners

had the ability to save themselves if they had known how close they were to breathable air.

The point I'm trying to make is that Hatfield failed to state the most obvious solution which would have been for the rescuers to go down and get the men. The rescuers already knew that they could have walked to within 2,000 ft from the miners. The last 2,000 ft could have been negotiated using auxiliary breathing devices.

Another thing that comes to mind is that a well designed remotely controlled probe vehicle would have been sent to the miners. Such devices should be standard equipment for any mine.

Why didn't Sago have a rescue team?

Why weren't auxiliary air and communication stations located every few hundred feet in the main tunnel? I read an article that such stations were being provided in mines as early as 1912 in the U.S.

[Orrex]

15. I think Mugsy got it right in reply #7

The victims' proximity to "good air" was recognized only after the fact, so there's no way they could have been expected to escape on their own.

But by the same logic, I'm not sure how feasible it would have been to send rescuers in without knowing the prevailing conditions, or without even a solid idea of where the victims were. A remote probe would probably have been a good idea--how reliable would such a vehicle be in negotiating a mine collapse? I honestly have no idea.

Still, your questions about regular communcations stations are good. Lots of questions to be answered about safety.

I wonder, if the question is "why was X allowed to occur," how many times the answer will be "thanks to unbridled deregulation."

[ProfessorGAC]

19. But Rescuers Could Have Had SCBA

The trapped miners didn't have that. Of course, i wouldn't doubt if this operation cut SCBA from the budget.
The Professor

[Orrex]

20. Another good point! (nt)

[ohio_liberal]

....

The miners had SCSR that lasts a few hours, that's it. Only an hour if they are running like hell or otherwise using more oxygen like, say, building a plastic barrier.

[MercutioATC]

21. Naw, rescuers would have definitely had SCBA.

My understanding is that officials feared another collapse and didn't want to send anybody in...which doesn't make sense because they eventually went in to recover the bodies anyway.

[ProfessorGAC]

23. I Won't Ackowledge Anything Definite About Sago's Operation

They ignored MSHA fine after MSHA fine! They didn't care if they were a safe operation. The mine appeared to be an accident waiting to happen (as stated in one MSHA Inspector's report). Well, we're not waiting anymore.
The Professor

[ladjf]

27. the owner should be fined and imprisoned for criminal negligence

and banned from any mining operations. The mine should be closed and confiscated.

[ohio_liberal]

30. I'd bet my last dollar...

The owners of the mine will find a way to declare bankruptcy and close up before they have to pay out damages to these families. They'll be back under a different name with the same unsafe mines.

[ladjf]

I agree. I read in the paper today that the company was going

to pay the funeral expenses of the dead miners. VERY GENEROUS!

Pardon my paranoia but I'm even suspicious that all of the fear about another explosion had to do with not wanting to damage the mine further and possibly ruining some multi-million dollar mining equipment. I believe that in the management's mind, the miners were expendable. (funeral costs)

[ohio_liberal]

35. $2million company fund for 12 families

Sad to say, that's better than most dead miners' families get. Of course their deaths don't get played out on TV in such a way. I think it's bloody awful. I hope those families get everything they can.

[wallybarron]

45. What paper?

I read somewhere???, can't find it right now, that Workmen's comp was paying for the funerals.

[ladjf]

48. It was either the USA Today or the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

[ohio_liberal]

24. How quickly did they send in the robotic device that got stuck?

I don't have a timeline handy and I forget how quickly the robotic thingamabobber was sent in.

[ladjf]

29. As I recall, about 15 hrs after the explosion.

But, the device was not designed for this operation and got stuck in the mud. A well designed remote controlled device most definitely could have made it to the miners with air, communications and other needed capabilities with no risk to anyone.

[ohio_liberal]

32. Agree with you there

MSHA doesn't make these companies use new technology. There's a whole checklist of what they could've done with technology to save these men. I'm just sick about it. :cry:

Here's another point. They should've pumped oxygen down the initial 6" air shaft. I'm sure they already were certain the men were dead because they didn't get a response to banging on the pipes. I'd bet there were some still alive but incapacitated, just like Mr. McCloy.

edited for clarity. Damn that was a messed up post!

[ladjf]

33. There was no reason not to pump air into their location.

They should have drilled multiple air shafts.

[ladjf]

26. Exactly! That's what I've been attempting to say.

Some of these rebuttals make me feel as though I've been typing in a foreign language.

[progressivebydesign]

50. REscuers didn't know at the time.. ANd..

If you recall, one of the most tragic mine accidents in our time involved the deaths of RESCUERS trying to get to trapped miners. I'm not exonerating the mine company, but there is this knee jerk reaction around here to instantly blame someone. They are now investigating the circumstances, and discovering things now that the dust has settled.. literally.

[dogday]

14. What kind of clusterf**k operation

are they running. When they put men in danger they should have emergency plans and actions, communications with the miners, etc. This is a shame and people should call for reform....

[ladjf]

34. I agree. Did you notice that, unlike previous mining incidents,

there were no substantive reports about the actual progress of the rescue operation. It seemed to have been done in total secrecy. And to this date, there is still no published time line as to what procedures were executed by the rescuers. Who was directing the operation?

[ohio_liberal]

36. Mr. Hatfield said it was a joint rescue operation

MSHA, company, and (I think? but not certain) the state all had teams that were set up in the command center working together. It sounded like a mess waiting to happen.

[jarab]

39. So many rescuers have been lost

in the rescue/recovery efforts in the last few decades - Scotia KY Mine comes to mind - that I believe it's almost a foregone conclusion once our miners become trapped/or presumed to be trapped (by gases).
Dropping "rescue buckets" into the overburden such as in the PA incident is an anomaly, imo. That one involved water, and not gases, also.
It appears to be a tough rescue in almost all cases. Do you risk 6-8 miners in attempting to rescue a like number, and lose all at times?
I think improvement in communication is the first priority, so both parties might work together. The accidents will happen regardless of what is done. It's the nature of the work. But, more can and should be done to prevent more of them, and to make rescue more viable than simple recovery (the latter happening in this instance).
And, communication by those outside could have saved the families much added sorrow.

...O...

[ladjf]

40. If the shuttle cart had remote controlled capabilities, which it

didn't, it could have been driven directly to the miners with no risks involved.

[jarab]

41. Metal-on-metal would present an ignition problem ...

But I would agree that there should be technology to overcome this aspect; it's a very, very volatile environment. mho
...O...

Its' my understanding that the robot was the least likely trigger mechanism, and it failed for who knows why.

[ladjf]

43. The robot they sent wasn't designed for the Sago mine.

If sparks are the fear, the robot could be made of plastic, driven by compressed air. Any electronic components could be adequately shielded.

And if explosions were the fear, the rescue team could have made and exploratory walk down the shaft. We now know that there were no obstructions in the shaft that they would not have encountered unbreathable air until they got within 2,000 ft of the miners. Breathing aux air, they could have easily walked the remaining 1,000 steps to the location.

[wallybarron]

44. rescue

The explosion was around 6:30 a.m. At 1:30 p.m., the first rescue team was still waiting outside the mine. Safety rules prevent one team from entering until a back-up team is standing by. The second team did not arrive until after 5:30 p.m. The miners had already been trapped for more than 11 hours.

In an emergency, every minute counts. Many factors contributed to the nation’s inability to respond to this emergency properly, as reporter Ken Ward Jr. revealed Sunday:

As the number of miners has shrunk, so has the number of trained rescuers. Positions at the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration go unfilled. The number of MSHA-approved safety teams dropped by 10 percent between 2000 and 2002. Every coal mine in the country is supposed to have at least two teams, either on site or on contract nearby. As of 2004, there was only one team for every four underground coal mines in the country.
http://www.wvgazette.com/section/Editorials/200601092

[ladjf]

49. In that case, they should have halved the size of team one

and proceeded. Time was most definitely of the essence and they knew it.

[onenote]

42. lots of 20-20 hindsight here

Let me ask this: If it was up to you, would you have ordered rescuers to go into a dark, unstable, carbon-monoxide laden mine shaft with no idea where the miners they are looking for are located? In retrospect, it looks like a good idea, but one of the things you don't want to do in a rescue situation is create the need for additional rescues.

I don't know if any of the posters here are experts on mining, and I'm certainly not. But I spoke to a journalist friend who has covered mining for many years and he said that you can't just willy nilly pump air in to replace the carbon monoxide (apparently reventilating the shaft can create an explosion risk). He also pointed out that in the Quecreek PA mining incident a few years ago (where the miners were rescued), there was no equipment on site either. Drills had to re sent to PA from W.VA. It was more than 17 hours until the drill arrived. It was thought that the drilling would reach the miners in 18 hours, but in fact, there were problems with the drill bits and it took around 48 hours before the miners were reached. In that case, there was no poisonous gas problem (it was a flooding accident), so the miners survived. But, again, with 20-20 hindsight, you could easily see that situation coming out very badly.

onenote

[jarab]

46. In hindsight, it appears that

the rescuers could have been successful, but that 20-20 outcome is apparently contingent upon contradicting current deep-mining protocol.
Thanks for your enlightened post.
...O...

[ladjf]

47. The only reason that it is "hindsight" is that it has taken a week

for the information to reach the general public. However, that information was available to the rescuers very soon after the explosion.

It is not from hindsight or expertise when I say that there was nothing to stop a rescue crew from moving down the shaft, testing the air as they went. We know now that had they done that, they would have been able to walk withing 2,000 ft from the miners before encountered bad air. The remaining distance, about 1,000 small steps could have been negotiated.

Ultimately, they did simply walk to the miners location. What new information did they have then that wasn't available to them earlier?

As for not knowing the location of the miners: Diagrams of the Sago mine show that the shaft was an almost straight shot to the miners, that the miners were within a few feet of where the current mining operations had been taking place and the two air shafts drilled from above were almost exactly where the miners were.

You asked me what I would have done had I been in charge.

Prior to the explosion:

1. Cleared up all the safely violations that the company had received.
2. Placed emergency life support supples at stations all along the main tunnel.
3. Have designed and placed ready for use a safe remote controlled probe.
4. Wireless communications throughout the tunnel.
5. Breathable air supplies pipes (not oxygen) built into the tunnel walls.
6. Many more safety air vents to the surface. (which was only 260 feet distance)
7. Have a trained rescue group as part of the regular company personnel. Time was of the essence.

After the explosion.

1. Simultaneous efforts - air and communication holes from above and various exploratory probes at the mine entrance. Unmanned robot would have been best. But, short of that, the crew would start in from the mine entrance, carefully monitoring the air quality and the structural integrity of the tunnel. As long as the air was good, no obstruction nor signs of structural damage, the team would continue to press down toward the miners. The rescuers would be equipped with infra-red sensors to precisely locate the miners in the dark. If there were no wireless capabilities, the exploratory group would have strung communication wire as they move down the tunnel.

2. What I wouldn't have done would have been to wait 14 hrs. before doing anything and then ultimately wait 40 hrs, knowing that the miners only had about 10 to 20 before doing what I could have done immediately.

3. The initial rescue team could have been only one or two people. I don't see that any rescuers took any chances in any way in this operation. If so, what were they?

[onenote]

52. actually I asked you something different

Namely, faced with the exact situation that existed (not the situation that should've existed had better safety measures been in place prior to the accident), would you have ordered rescuers to travel 2 miles into the mine, knowing that it was unstable, that the air was registering very high levels of carbon monoxide, and that the location of the missing miners was unknown.

Keep in mind that while it turns out that the air was clear 2000 feet from where the miners were found, they were more than 2 miles into the mine. It was not just a matter of walking a short distance into an unknown situation. If something had happened to the rescuers,they would'be been hours away from help themselves. Here's the timeline: The first team of rescuers entered the mine shortly before 6 pm the day of the explosion (around 11 hours after the explosion). It took them until 10:42 pm, nearly five hours, to get 4800 feet into the mine. It wasn't until the following morning (at 6:50 am) that they reached the 11,000 foot mark. In other words, it took 13 hours just to get to a spot near where the miners actually were. And while it turns out that the air holes were drilled holes in the right location, they didn't "know" that until after the miners were found...20-20 hindsight.

Click below to find a link to another diagram showing the mine layout and where the miners were found.

http://dwb.newsobserver.com/24hour/nation/

onenote

[ladjf]

53. If it's your belief that the rescue operation was carried out in the

best way for all concerned, that's your business. I personally think that the entire operation from before the explosion until the men were found dead were another example of corporate disregard for human life. I think we could have done better than that.

[onenote]

54. There's no question that there should have been better measures

in place before the explosion, both that would've minimized the risk of the explosion in the first place and that would've increased the possibility of a successful rescue.

My point is that its naieve to think that because it was discovered after the fact that the miners were within 2000 feet of breathable air that it was wrong for the rescue teams not to be sent into the mine immediately after the explosion. The location of the miners was not known with any degree of certainty and the stability and safety of the mine was seriously compromised. Under those circumstances, rushing to send rescuers on a 13 hour mission 2 miles into the mine was really not a viable option and criticizing those who made the decision not to send in rescuers is an example of how easy it for people to be heroes when they'r sitting in front of a computer.

onenote

[ladjf]

55. The miners were at 13,000 ft from the entrance.

Breathable air was present for the first 11,000 ft and there were no obstructions are measurable methane. I don't have to be an expert to know that there was no reason to wait 12 hrs. before even venturing into the mouth of the entrance. Nor do I have to be an expert to believe that team one shouldn't have waited hours for the arrival of team 2 per regulations. Team one should have been divided. There was nothing in the first 11,000 to indicate danger. Had they started immediately, testing the air as they went , they would have seen that.

Eventually the first team walked to 11,000 ft and from there took an additional 5 hrs. to go anther 200 ft. Obviously there were afraid of an explosion because there was nothing to stop them from going all the way then.

My sense is that for whatever your reasons, your support is of the rescuers and the company. We both agree that the preparations for disaster seemed to be non-existent.

There were 13 desperate men down that tube. I would have risked at least one person to take off immediately to find them. He could have ridden a damn bicycle for the first two miles.

[onenote]

56. your sense is nonsense

"My sense is that your support is of the rescuers and the company." You're right that I have concern for the rescuers in situations like this since putting rescuers at risk tends not to help those in need of rescue and creates more problems. As for your suggestion that my support is for the company, I suggest, with all due respect, that your full of crap. Nothing I have said has indicated the slightest support for how the company operated the mine. Maybe you view the rescuers as simply tools of the company, but I don't. Bt the way, I've never suggested that you had an agenda and your suggestion that I have one is offensive.

BTW, it took the rescue teams 13 hours to go 11,000 feet into the mine. Why do you think that was the case? Did their "bicycles" get flat tires?

onenote

[progressivebydesign]

51. We've had terrible tragedies of rescuers being killed.

You're right. Too much second guessing by people here who have no expertise on this. They are simply looking to place blame on the company, because that's the DU way.