Chavez wants high oil prices (even more so than oil companies)

[corporate_mike]

Getting sick and tired of Chavez praising around here.

Chavez is part of the high oil price problem. His economy depends almost entirely on oil. Venezuela is one of the 5 founding members of the OPEC cartel . . .

"The petroleum sector dominates the economy, accounting for roughly a third of Venezuela's GDP, around 80% of export earnings, and more than half of government revenues. The oil sector operates through the government-owned Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), which among other things owns the US-based distributor CITGO, which has 14,000 retail gasoline outlets in the United States." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela

C'mon people. Get your facts straight.

Chavez and Venezuela would love to see oil prices go higher. Much higher. They do everything they can to influnce market to get higher prices.

[Bagsby]

1. So why are we being asked to buy Citgo gas?

Isn't Exxon the enemy?

[corporate_mike]

5. Exxon (&BP, Shell, etc.) benefit from high prices but don't set prices

Venezuela does

[Bagsby]

13. Thank you. I wasn't aware of that.

I was advised to buy Citgo gas because it was owned by Chavez. This is making me reconsider.

[corporate_mike]

24. Chavez/Citgo want the opposite of what we want (lower oil prices)

The sooner we realize that the better.

[Bagsby]

43. Isn't Chavez that communist thug who fixed his election?

This is starting to make sense now. But why do so many on this board defend him?

[rman]

67. Because Chavez is not a communist thug who fixed his election

He's a socialist and he didn't fix his election.

[KansDem]

86. Perhaps you're thinking about the fascist thug who fixed his election?

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. A voice of reason!

And from Kansas no less!!

How ya doing, guy? :hi:

[Judi Lynn]

89. Why don't you provide a link to information on his being a "communist"

who "fixed his election?" His election was overseen by international organizations, including Jimmy Carter's people, and Jimmy Carter gave it a totally clean appraisal. Are you calling Jimmy Carter a liar?

[Bagsby]

99. I guess I am going by Chavez' own quotes...

..where he calls himself the 'second Fidel Castro' and the objections human rights groups have raised against him, as well as his well-documented scorn for capitalism.

[400Years]

142. ooooh, scary

He calls himself a socialist. Scary!!!!!!!

Btw, Capitalism in this country is a sham.

We have a centrally controlled economy where the feds take our money and dole it out to their cronies. Pretty much what you are whining about.

[Bagsby]

175. no, he called himself the second Castro

castro is a communist.

As for capitalism in this country, lots of people in this country start with little and end up doing pretty well.

[400Years]

190. So?

We are all full aware that Chavez supports Cuba. I have no problem with that.
Cuba has sent thousands of doctors all over Latin America. I know, I know, helping people is evil unless they are filthy rich cronies of Bush and Cheney.

Do you deny that massive chunks of our tax dollars are poured into the coffers of Bechtel, Halliburton, Dyncorp, etc.? How is that not a centralized command and control economy?

[Judi Lynn]

194. 400years is correct.Link:Hugo Chavez: A Bolivarian Socialist at the United

Hugo Chavez: A Bolivarian Socialist at the United Nations
by Roger Burbach
September 22, 2005

Caracas, Venezuela. Hugo Chavez has moved onto the world stage as an advocate of profound change within his own country and abroad. At the gathering of world leaders at the United Nations this week he proclaimed: "The United Nations has exhausted its model...The twenty first century demands deep changes that will only be possible if a new organization is founded." He described the specter of a "frightening neo- liberal globalization" that has sapped the will of the United Nations. Alluding to the United States, he called for an end to the "shameless dictatorship" it exercises over the international organization and demanded that UN headquarters be moved from New York to an "international city" in a country in the South.

These calls for radical changes at the global level are a reflection of the deep transformations being carried out within Venezuela. Starting in early 2005 Chavez proclaimed that Venezuela is bent on constructing "a new socialism for the twenty first century."

Venezuela is not constructing anything resembling socialism as we knew it in the last century. Thus far there have been no moves to take over the assets of the largest national or transnational enterprises of the country. Furthermore, Chavez has not proclaimed a Peoples state, only a Bolivarian Republic, while the state bureaucracy of the Ancien Regime remains largely intact. Finally no centralized political party has been charged with the task of transforming the economy or the country's social, political and cultural values.
(snip/...)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=8795

[EstimatedProphet]

237. The rest of the world doesn't hate Castro

It's pretty much just the US

[redqueen]

241. *beams*

:D

:loveya:

[EstimatedProphet]

259. Thank you! I'm here all week!

[Bagsby]

269. Castro has murdered thousands in his regime.

Have you really convinced yourself that the world loves this brutal evil dictator?

[EstimatedProphet]

272. Look at the rest of the world

There is ONE trade embargo against Cuba-the US trade embargo.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

274. Isn't that the same propaganda the U. S. uses for every....

...foreign leader that refuses to knuckle under to U. S. policies?

Have you convinced yourself that everything you're told by the U. S. is the truth?

How many thousands of people have we murdered in the Middle East at the orders of the brutal dictator who currently, and illegally, squats in the White House?

How many thousands of people have we helped murder throughout South America, Central America, and the Caribbean Basin in support of the dictators we've supported in those regions?

[Judi Lynn]

276. You should provide some adequate sources for your charge.

We need to know more about these thousands murdered by Fidel Castro.

[EstimatedProphet]

285. He won't be providing anything anymore

[Judi Lynn]

288. Awwwwww! (sniff, sniff. sigh...) I was really looking forward to reading

a lot of those factual documents he was probably ready to produce, weren't you?



Bagby, or whatever, we hardly knew ye!

Thanks for the news, EstimatedProphet! :hi:

[George1984]

309. Castro has murdered thousands in his regime..

What about the clown who sent all of your troops over, under manned, under planned to get slaughtered? Isn't that worse than keeping your people in the stone ages?

[mitchum]

257. Actually, most people in this country DIE in the class they were BORN into

Got another simple-minded MYTH you want to trot out, "Einstein"?

[converted_democrat]

265. ...

:rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

275. I read a recent report stating that upward mobility is a myth now.

It said that currently the statistics are right back where they were decades ago. I'll keep my eye out for that article, hoping I stumble accross it.

I did find this, which makes some points leading in the same direction:

....according to the extensive research of Lee Rainwater and Timothy Smeeding (Poor Kids in a Rich Country, 2003), poor children in the United States are poorer than in every rich western nation but the United Kingdom, Spain, and Italy. In Switzerland, a child at the 20th income percentile has 70 percent higher real income than an American kid in the same relative position; in Norway, almost 60 percent; in Canada, France, and Belgium, more than 25 percent—despite America’s substantially greater per capita income. As the two authors put it, “A comforting belief in the United States is that while we may have more inequality than European countries, decades of economic growth have lifted even the worst-off Americans to a higher standard of living than the marginal economic classes of Europe. Rather surprisingly, this turns out not to be the case.”
(snip/...)

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2006/03/21/jacob-hacker/americas-poor-and-the-myth-of-mobility/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Income Mobility Statistics

There is moderate income mobility in the U.S., but it is not even close to what conservatives suggest, and certainly not enough to forgive growing disparities of income. Economist Paul Krugman writes:

"Census data show that 81.6 percent of those families who were in the bottom quintile {the poorest 20 percent} of the income distribution in 1985 were still in that bottom quintile the next year; for the top quintile the fraction was 76.3 percent. Over longer time periods, there is more mixing, but still not that much. Studies by the Urban Institute and the U.S. Treasury have both found that about half of the families who start in either the top or the bottom quintile of the income distribution are still there after a decade, and that only 3 to 6 percent rise from bottom to top or fall from top to bottom.

"Even this overstates income mobility, since (i) those who slip out of the top quintile (say) are typically at the bottom of that category, and (ii) much of the movement up and down represents fluctuations around a fairly fixed long-term distribution." (1)

One study, by Greg Duncan of the University of Michigan, measured income mobility during two time periods. In the first, 1975 to 1980, incomes were more equal than they are today. In the second, 1981-1985, income inequality began soaring. And what happened to income mobility during these periods? Duncan found that the middle class began shrinking after 1980, with correspondingly more people leaving the middle class (for either the upper or lower class) than entering it. Here are the exact figures:

Percentages of families making transitions to and from middle class
(5-year period before and after 1980) (2)

~~~~~~~~~~ Before ~~~~~~ After
Transition~~~~~ 1980 ~~~~~~ 1980
----------------------------------------------
Middle income to low income 8.5%~~~~~~ 9.8%
Middle income to high income 5.8~~~~~~ 6.8
Low income to middle income 35.1~~~~~~ 24.6
High income to middle income 30.8~~~~~~ 27.6
(snip/...)

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-mobility.htm

[converted_democrat]

207. Can you provide links to those quotes please? Chavez isn't perfect,

but he clearly is trying to the best he can for the average citizen. The US can't say that.. He's started some great programs for his nation, and has sold oil to less fortunate areas of our country at a reduced rate, when our country sat back and did nothing for our own.. He seems to care more about our poor than * does.. Just for the record, socialist doesn't = communist..

on edit-
Unchecked capitalism is destroying our country.. There is a war being waged on the middle class, and our economy and the future of our children is a stake because of it..

[Media_Lies_Daily]

263. When Castro overthrew Batista, he asked the U. S. for aid....

...for Cuba and the Cuban people. He was flatly rejected. So, he proceeded to shut down all of the casinos, and nationalize the Cuban-based operations of some major U. S. corporations like United Fruit. He then turned to the Soviet Union and Khruschev, and got the aid he requested...and the USSR got a military base.

The groups opposed to Castro are an interesting lot. You've got the big corporations like United Fruit who lost their major sugar operations in Cuba, organized crime who lost their casinos, and the U. S. intelligence community who lost an excellent base of operations. The CIA-sponsored Castro Task Force included components from the CIA, the U. S. military, anti-Castro Cubans, and the mafia. There was also cross-over among those groups, such as:

*Allen Dulles, the then-director of the CIA, was a mjor shareholder in United Fruit;
*The CIA had used the mafia for years to do work to which they could not be connected;
*Joint operational task-groups going into Cuba or Cuban waters would include members from the CIA, the military, anti-Castro Cubans, and the mafia.

Additionally, whenever anyone opposed U. S. policies in South America, Central America, and the Caribbean before the collapse of the old USSR, they got slapped with the "communist" label. And if they weren't "communist", they were "socialist", or "left-leaning". We're STILL using those terms today, and they aren't any more true today than they were then.

When Chavez talks about being the "second Fidel Castro", that's seen as being a GOOD thing in that part of the world. We never seem to grasp the idea that if the Cubans hated Fidel as much as we've been told they would have overthrown him long before now.

We're also told that Cuba's poverty is a result of Casto's style of government, but we never hear about the sanctions that the U. S. has held in place since Castro made an agreement with the USSR. The sanctions include a basic embargo against virtually every product produced by Cuba, and the sale of products to Cuba. Castro gets medical supplies and other basics wherever he can find them.

[EstimatedProphet]

283. Well put

[redqueen]

126. Fixed his election? I think you're confusing him with Bush.

:rofl:

[peacetalksforall]

164. A huge group of people oversaw the election, including Carter, and

pronounced it legitimate. Which was the rationale for the outrage over the U.S. coup to kick him out which they were successful at until the people rose upan dput him back in office.

We are excellent at coups involving duly elected Presidents - Haiti, Venezuela, Allende. We love military dictators or just plain dictators.

[killbotfactory]

168. But the people who lost, said it was rigged!

They would never lie!

[redqueen]

173. The privileged who before recently held power for decades?

Why would they lie?

:rofl:

[redqueen]

171. Yeah, I know...

I was kinda wondering why mr corporate was so confused about exactly WHO is stealing elections these days.

:rofl:

[tjwash]

228. Um, excuse me, but he won by an overwhelming vote.

And, unlike the oil men here, instead of putting the profits from a natural resource into his own pocket, he actually puts the profits back into his country in the form of jobs, health care, and education. You may want to check that propaganda you keep getting spoon fed over at free republic.

[Blue_Roses]

268. you need to get your facts straight

and as far as Venezuela being a founding country of OPEC, it was way before Chavez.

http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q3.htm

[MyNameGoesHere]

2. Cool

now can you point me to the wiki section stating that Chavez intentions are for higher oil prices?

[corporate_mike]

7. Oil makes up 80% of Venezuela's export

Do you honestly think he wants lower prices?

C'mon.

[Judi Lynn]

27. You're misleading people. Oil made up 80% of their export BEFORE

he was elected:

1992 4/5 of all countryþs export earnings came from oil industry.

http://www.american.edu/TED/VENEZ.HTM

He was elected in 1998.

Nice try.

[corporate_mike]

35. What's the % today?

I bet with high oil prices, it's even more than in was when oil was at $30

[Judi Lynn]

42. You just claimed it's 80%. Don't you remember? n/t

[corporate_mike]

48. So you have no answer? At any rate, it's substantial part of his income

Does it matter if it's 75% or 85%?

His interest would be to keep oil prices high even if only 20% of his income depended on it.

[Judi Lynn]

62. I ANSWERED TWICE. Oil has constituted 80% of Venezuelan

export earnings years BEFORE CHAVEZ WAS ELECTED. This is the third time I've answered.

[corporate_mike]

69. Link? - also my question was: "what's the % today?"

[Judi Lynn]

76. My reply is you have already claimed it's 80%. You're not taking time

to think.

[corporate_mike]

87. Stopped reading your posts after you claim Venezuelans live better than US

this is not a comedy thread.

Do yourself a favor. Take a trip to Venezuela and we'll continue our debate. You should really see the poverty in Venezuela before post anything else on the subject.

[Judi Lynn]

93. That has never happened. Not once. No one here has done that.

You'd be well advised to locate that statement and provide a link to it.

[corporate_mike]

sorry got you confused with the other Lynn

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=985900&mesg_id=986255

[happydreams]

280. BULLSHIT! You're wrong about what the post said as well as who

posted it!! Re-read it and tell me I'm wrong.

[leftchick]

100. when did Judi write that?

I have never read that on DU anywhere? Can you post the threads?

[peacetalksforall]

179. I doubt that anyone on DU said that the V people live better than we in

the U.S. V is one of the countries of the world that has the widest gap between rich and poor. Many of the rich have abandoned it for the wealthy communities in cities all over the U.S. and Europe.

[LittleClarkie]

305. What he seems to be asking is, if he is truly mistaken, then perhaps

you could correct him and tell him, if their percentage is no longer 80%, what the percentage is now. In asking what it is now, he's admitting that perhaps he might be mistaken. Now if you would correct him instead of beating him over the head with his wrong answer, perhaps we could get somewhere in this thread instead of watching the two of you go back and forth.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. LOL

:rofl:

Good catch!

[MyNameGoesHere]

49. Ok still

since i do not know him personally perhaps you could tell me when you had your last council with him or his cabinet?

[EstimatedProphet]

240. So your argument is that he wants higher prices because you think he does?

[mitchum]

258. Well, fuck...your user name is "corporate mike" ferchrisake!

Should we really expect you to be objective?
Occam's Razor can cut in many directions

[400Years]

3. So

Even if your assertion is true, why shouldn't Venenzuela do whatever it can to rise out of poverty?

The money Venenzuela is making is being put to a good use.

[converted_democrat]

219. So true.. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

286. Exactly

Why wouldn't he want the highest prices he can get to further his own economy. Some Americans seem to think we deserve assests from other countries and want it cheap too. He is paying off his national debt at a good clip.

[madokie]

4. I take anything I read in wikipedia or snoops with a grain of salt. period

[corporate_mike]

9. If 80% of your income depended on oil - would you want lower prices?

[madokie]

17. I don't believe for a second anything you have said, sorry

It appears that Hugo is doing just fine as it is. offered and is selling heating oil to the poor at a discount. providing health care to other south american countries for free. and on and on. sorry I don't buy it.

[corporate_mike]

21. Well, what happens if oil drops from $73 to $45? We benefit- he loses

Our interests are the exact opposite.

Quite simple.

[madokie]

You're not reading what I type. I don't subscribe to your argument

argue with someone else. geeze

[MyNameGoesHere]

176. Well i think you are

trying to create a non existent bogeyman. See we have an oilman here in the usa that has single handedly driven up the cost of oil more than chavez could ever dream of. yet you decide to focus the blame on chavez. What bait are you trying to troll with btw? Cause it don't look appetizing to me.

[MikeNearMcChord]

32. Sorry to say this

but the US had nearly 30 years on the first on set of the oil shocks, in the 70's to get it's energy policy sh*t together and break our dependence on oil, it wasn't done. So we have no reason to complain if Chavez, Ahamadinejad, or any of the other sheiks, sultans, or PM control oil spigots and want to sell whatever price they deem fit. Besides it looks like China or India are willing to step in and buy the oil.

[Judi Lynn]

33. You're still misleading people. Oil was 80% of Venezuelan exports BEFORE

he was elected:

1992 4/5 of all countryþs export earnings came from oil industry.
http://www.american.edu/TED/VENEZ.HTM

He was elected in 1998.

Nice try.

[corporate_mike]

38. pls stop spamming the thread and answer my question above

[Judi Lynn]

46. Please point out the spamming, would you? I'll wait. n/t

[corporate_mike]

50. posting the same thing several times on a thread is spamming

[Judi Lynn]

70. Answering twice to your SAME CLAIM is not spamming, unless you're spamming

as well. You refused to accept my first answer, you repeated yourself, and I answered that repetition. You're not making much headway in representing yourself well.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

105. obviously Mr. Corporate

does not want facts. :eyes:

[corporate_mike]

114. what facts? pls, do provide all stats that you have

[leftchick]

115. Judi has and you ignore them

I can't make you read and digest them.

[corporate_mike]

122. Judi offered no specific stats. NONE.

She made some wild guesses about where oil income % might be today. That's it, guesses.

[converted_democrat]

231. I guess I don't get your point.. Chavez was put in charge to do right

by his country, and he is.. He's putting the money to good use for the good of the people.. He sold oil at reduced rates to poorer areas of our nation to help our poor.. He cares more about our poor than * does.. I don't agree with everything he says, but I think he's an inspiring leader who actually cares about his country.. * can't come close to claiming that.. The US sees him as a big threat because he setting up the foundations for a successful socialist society, and the last thing the American bigwigs want is such a model in their backyard.. The fruit of the foundation won't be realized for a few years, but the US is trying to stop it from happening because they don't want it to get off the ground..

on edit- He's doing right by his people, and that's his job..

[rman]

91. That info from wiki is probably correct but it does not prove mike's point

about what Chavez wants wrt the price of oil.

[notadmblnd]

6. You have evidence of this? Or is it merely your humble opinion?

nt

[corporate_mike]

15. Caracas has done its part in boosting oil prices

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_40/b3701185.htm

[LSK]

36. your article is from 2000

It was a different world then.

[corporate_mike]

40. Yes and oil prices increase 50% since then

[LSK]

54. and yet you provide no proof that he is part of that

I'd rather look towards Cheney's secret energy meetings in 2001. Perhaps thats more to blame than Chavez. Hopefully we can get Congress to investigate it next year if the Dems control the House or Senate.

[rman]

80. Which is obviously Chavez's fault and obviously Big Oil has nothing to do

with it, because they don't profit from it.
:sarcasm:

[corporate_mike]

98. Venezuela is one of the five founding members of OPEC (cartel)

Oil companies are NOT part of OPEC

[rman]

211. Oh right, Big Oil is innocent, it's all Chavez's fault -

who happens not to be a fan of big corporate power over government.

[David__77]

8. HOW DARE HIM!!!

I mean, what GALL, for the leader of a third world country attempt to generate more desperately needed revenue to develop his country! HOW DARE HIM want to redistribute some of the economic power from the imperialist countries to the third world countries that hold oil reserves!!!

[peacetalksforall]

189. And how dare him to get the debt to the IMF and World Bank (read

USA) paid off. How dare pay off the debt that has created a very huge poverty class because the riches of the loans went to the rich and the interest to the poor. How dare he pay off the debt and leave the IMF and World Bank without their pot.

[Warpy]

10. You can hardly blame him

He needs to fund a lot of programs to stay in power and to keep draining money and power away from the oligarchs. He also needs to keep the oligarchs pacified by high oil prices so they won't notice much of the other stuff he's trying to accomplish.

The point isn't trying to make oil cheap again. That's simply not going to happen because all those countries we exported our paychecks to are starting to want the same stuff we have.

The point is to start to figure out how to use less.

[Kolesar]

11. Getting sick and tired of subsidies for super-agribusiness...

...whose lobbying is the prime reason that ethanol is being promoted as a fuel.

[dipsydoodle]

12. At last Chavez seems to put the money to good use.......

i.e. for the benefit of the Venezuelian population. Good luck to him. If the USA don't like it they could stop buying his oil.

[corporate_mike]

31. with that logic, you can find US oil companies donating to charities

but that's all besides the point.

[uncle ray]

63. okay, what does the almighty Wiki

tell you about how much of the big oil corporation's record high profits go to charity?

you DO realize i could go write a Wikipedia article right now that refutes your allegation? anybody could. Wikipedia isn't a source of reliable info.

[David__77]

68. Venezuela's oil revenues are a public asset.

They are not in the hands of private corporations.

[corporate_mike]

144. Somehow Chavez manages to reap the benefits personally

[redqueen]

151. And your evidence fo r this is... ????

Do you know of a secret gold yacht he's got? Is he earning tens of millions of dollars a year like jabba the hut?

[Judi Lynn]

200. It would be worthwhile if you provided evidence Hugo Chavez is skimming

oil profits for himself. You can be sure DU'ers would want to read that one.

[AllieB]

204. You are spewing talking points and not providing legitimate links

to back them up. It's getting really old.

[huskerlaw]

230. As opposed to the

CEO of Exxon/Mobile who is so poor he's homeless and starving to death, right?

Poor guy. Existing on a mere $144,000 a DAY.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/15/business/15pay.html?_r=1&ei=5094&en=a1bc7978beba066b&hp=&ex=1145160000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

[converted_democrat]

239. Do you have links for anything you're spewing? n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

14. He's gotta do what he's gotta do. I would think a "corporate" dude

would understand that. I guess not.

[corporate_mike]

19. Yeah, but he's part of the problem (not the solution) to high oil prices

[400Years]

23. high oil prices are here to stay

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

29. Well what can I tell you. Deal with it. Or maybe get Pat Robertson

to take care of him.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. The solution to high oil prices is

getting the oil execs out of the white house.

[uncle ray]

66. to many of us, high oil prices are not a problem

oil SHOULD be expensive. the problem is oil company profits.

[corporate_mike]

191. Huh?

You lost me there.

[redqueen]

198. Ever been to Britain? Ever wonder why they pay SO much more?

Geez Louise... at least know what you're talking about.

[uncle ray]

293. it didn't take much to lose you.

oil is a limited natural resource, so i feel it should not be "cheap" to use. i, like many others have a problem with corporations getting rich off the oil, if the money paid for it went into the bettering the environment, or research for better energy means, i would have no problem with high fuel prices.

[converted_democrat]

248. Gas isn't ever going to go below 50.00 a gallon, and if you honestly

believe that any oilman wants prices to go below 50.00 a gallon, than I have a bridge to sell you..

According to you he's "part of the problem" so what do you suggest should be done about that problem?? (For the record I don't think he's a part of the problem, but I just want to know what you think.)

*I* think half a billion dollar CEO retirement packages, and American corporate greed are a much bigger problem than Chavez ever will be... (Spare me the lectures on how oil is priced..)

[TheFarseer]

16. Makes sense to me

If I raise pigs, I want the price of pork to be high and I won't appologize for it. He's trying to lift his country out of poverty and not doing a bad job at that. It's up to us to conserve and our government to give us alternatives to the oil monopoly so that they can't gouge us. That's my opinion anyway.

You're right about Citgo though, I'm not on their bandwagon. Their contributions are as red as the other oil companies.

[bigtree]

18. It's their oil

we are the consumers. Chavez doesn't even want to sell us oil anymore. He wants to give the 60% of Venezuela's oil exports that now go to the U. S., to China.

I love the way Americans want to dictate to Chavez and Venezuela based on OUR own needs.

[0007]

45. We only get 16% of our oil from Venezuela. If the truth were

indeed known it is probably around 12%.

[bigtree]

120. that's a different point, though

here's mine:

Bloomberg: Venezuela expects oil exports to China to soar five-fold by 2012

In a dispatch from Caracas, Bloomberg writes: Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) ... South America's largest oil company ... expects its exports to China to rise fivefold by 2012 as it seeks to lessen its dependence on the US market.

Sales of crude oil and petroleum products to China may top 300,000 barrels within years, the state oil company said in a press statement.

In an interview, PDVSA board member Asdrubal Chavez said the company expects to reach the 300,000-barrel a day mark by 2012. "China has many opportunities for us,'' said Chavez -- who is a cousin of President Hugo Chavez -- accompanying Energy & Oil Minister Rafael Ramirez on a tour of China and Japan, which started Saturday.

President Chavez has repeatedly said that he wants Venezuela (the world's fifth-largest oil exporter) to diversify its customers and reduce its dependence on the US market which currently takes about 60% of Venezuela's daily exports of about 2 million barrels a day.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=45600

[0007]

192. I see!

[gordianot]

20. Capitalism is as contagious a nationalism. Who profits from the profits?

At this point it is not me but never has been that way in my case.

[Zynx]

22. Of course he does. Any net exporter would.

[Jim Warren]

25. Chávez seeks to peg oil at $50 a barrel

Mmmmmm..........lessee........$73+ minus $50.......carry the 3..........

Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez is poised to launch a bid to transform the global politics of oil by seeking a deal with consumer countries which would lock in a price of $50 a barrel.
A long-term agreement at that price could allow Venezuela to count its huge deposits of heavy crude as part of its official reserves, which Caracas says would give it more oil than Saudi Arabia.

"We have the largest oil reserves in the world, we have oil for 200 years." Mr Chávez told the BBC's Newsnight programme in an interview to be broadcast tonight. "$50 a barrel - that's a fair price, not a high price."

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1745467,00.html

[corporate_mike]

28. Exactly! He's afraid prices will drop below $50

so he wants to lock in $50 long-term

[Minstrel Boy]

41. You think we'll live to see oil below $50 a barrel again?

I don't expect to.

[corporate_mike]

53. Yes, I do.

Chavez does as well. Why else would he try to lock in those prices?

There is new production coming online within the next 2 years by all major oil companies.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

61. Not if your corporate buddies have anything to do with it. Man this gets

sadder and sadder by the post.

[corporate_mike]

71. You're obviously clueless. US oil companies DON'T SET the price of oil.

OPEC and Chavez do.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

82. Sure I'm the clueless one. I thought you were the one that read Hugo

Chavez's mind. Well I read CEOs minds and they also want high prices.

Do you honestly think for one minute that they can't negotiate prices given their enormous profits and clout? BTW OPEC is a multinational cartel not a company owned and controlled by Hugo Chavez.

[leftchick]

108. there you go with those pesky facts

some folks just don't like facts!

[rman]

60. And Exxon, BP, Shell et all don't want anything wrt the price of oil?

g*d you're transparent.

[uncle ray]

72. what's Exxons "target" price?

[rman]

75. Also he doesn't want prices as high as $73

It doesn't look like prices will go down any time soon.
Either way Venezuela is hardly the only one who profits.

[corporate_mike]

182. Based on what? Wild guess, again?

[converted_democrat]

251. I think you're confused.. You're the one making baseless accusations,

and not backing up your claims with links..

edited for clarity..

[rman]

260. Based on "Chávez seeks to peg oil at $50 a barrel"

Which you did not contest, rather you took it as evidence that Chavez does not want prices lower than $50.
If Chavez wants a "high" oil price, then as high as $50, not as high as $73 which it now is.

[Jim Warren]

94. Mikey flipflop

"Chavez and Venezuela would love to see oil prices go higher. Much higher. They do everything they can to influnce market to get higher prices."

You're not Agent Mike are ye?

[leftchick]

111. lol!

you might be on to something! ;)

[AllieB]

227. You think he could pass the secret agent test

when he can't follow the links posted on the thread that refute his arguments?

[SidDithers]

159. Sure... he's going to lose $23 / barrel now...

to protect himself if...and that's a big fuckin' if...world oil demand suddenly declines and the price of oil drops below $50 / barrel.

Perhaps you shouldn't be drinking that ethanol that you're pimping in your sig line.

Sid

[EstimatedProphet]

246. OK, that was stupid

You come here trying to convince people that Chavez wants high oil prices, then when you are shown that he is trying to lower oil prices you claim that is proof of your statement.

What the hell do you take us for? Go call up a drugstore and ask if they have Prince Albert in a can or something.

[redqueen]

252. hahahahahah

:loveya:

[Minstrel Boy]

44. thanks for posting this

I was about to try and dig up the link when I saw you already had.

[gordianot]

That is fascinating,

Notice how you never hear about OPEC anymore? Guess they have been replaced. Also notice how this statement did not play in U.S. media. It does make you wonder who really wants and gets current prices, not just the speculators. Even if there is no attack on Iran someone is able to profit from the threat and resulting rise in oil prices. Manipulation of the markets is easy when you are in the White House, that is a bonus you get with the job payback for all of those breaks you got when your business deals went sour.

[LSK]

26. so its better to pay 1 CEO $150,000 per day???

Or is it better for a leader to try and rise his nation out of poverty???

Hmmm, TOUGH CHOICE THERE!!!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

30. Oh come on show some compassion for the poor downtrodden

corporate CEOs of the world.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. Well if I was the CEO . . .

LOL

Yep, tough choice alright. :rofl:

[redqueen]

152. Is it really? n/t

[thoughtanarchist]

34. Iraq was about oil... If Venezuela starts invading other nations

to artificially push the price up on crude, let me know and I'll view Chavez as a "problem" like you seem to think we all should. As it is, I think he's a president of a south american country who is trying to do what is best for Venezuelans. That does not make him a messiah, but neither does it give you any reason to bash him out of hand.


Have you seen the latest by Greg Pallast?

Bush Didn't Bungle Iraq, You Fools
THE MISSION WAS INDEED ACCOMPLISHED
The Guardian
Monday, March 20, 2006

...



"It's about oil," Robert Ebel told me. Who is Ebel? Formerly the CIA's top oil analyst, he was sent by the Pentagon, about a month before the invasion, to a secret confab in London with Saddam's former oil minister to finalize the plans for "liberating" Iraq's oil industry. In London, Bush's emissary Ebel also instructed Ibrahim Bahr al-Ulum, the man the Pentagon would choose as post-OIF oil minister for Iraq, on the correct method of disposing Iraq's crude.

And what did the USA want Iraq to do with Iraq's oil? The answer will surprise many of you: and it is uglier, more twisted, devilish and devious than anything imagined by the most conspiracy-addicted blogger. The answer can be found in a 323-page plan for Iraq's oil secretly drafted by the State Department. Our team got a hold of a copy; how, doesn't matter. The key thing is what's inside this thick Bush diktat: a directive to Iraqis to maintain a state oil company that will "enhance its relationship with OPEC."

Enhance its relationship with OPEC??? How strange: the government of the United States ordering Iraq to support the very OPEC oil cartel which is strangling our nation with outrageously high prices for crude.

Specifically, the system ordered up by the Bush cabal would keep a lid on Iraq's oil production -- limiting Iraq's oil pumping to the tight quota set by Saudi Arabia and the OPEC cartel.

There you have it. Yes, Bush went in for the oil -- not to get more of Iraq's oil, but to prevent Iraq producing too much of it.

You must keep in mind who paid for George's ranch and Dick's bunker: Big Oil. And Big Oil -- and their buck-buddies, the Saudis -- don't make money from pumping more oil, but from pumping less of it. The lower the supply, the higher the price.


...
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=483&row=0

[dipsydoodle]

52. There are alternative theories

which contradict that. By increasing Iraq's oil ouput , as a non member of OPEC , the intention was to break OPEC's ability to control price. To me that is far more plausible. It all fell apart due to an apparent complete inability to restore the damage done by the invasion ( real f*ck up that) and by the insurgency.

[notadmblnd]

85. the writer is correct.

it's not about having the oil. It's all about having control of the flow of the oil. Big difference.

[killbotfactory]

193. Chavez was against the Iraq invasion

Yet every oil price expert knew that the price of oil would skyrocket if Bush invaded.

Hmm...

[Village Idiot]

39. Chavez doesn't have much of a choice, really.

As long as Venezuela is part of OPEC, Chavez does not set the price, period.

There aren't too many oil producing countries in the world that want lower prices - after all, it really only hurts those who CONSUME it. The average price in Venezuela for a litre of gas is $0.14.

The USA has proven time and time again to be the enemy of Venezuela generally and Chavez in particular - I suspect he would LOVE to stick the cock in, so to speak - but so too, would the entire rest of the world. He certainly enjoyed giving low price heating oil to USAsian consumers this winter - made the feds and USOil look pretty bad...

[0007]

47. I absolutely agree with you. We got a lot of fucking smoke

from the starter of this thread.

[corporate_mike]

64. there are over 50 threads praising Chavez/ Citgo

I just pointed out the obvious difference in their interest

[400Years]

153. So you don't think Chavez should do what is best for Venenzuela?

I think I'm hearing the rationalization of an addict.

If you have a car to sell would you not take top dollar?

[corporate_mike]

172. Which is why Chavez/Citgo are not part of the solution to high oil prices

Thanks for helping me make the point yet again

[redqueen]

174. WHO SAID THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE?

Jesus, where the $#&( are you getting this balderdash?

Oh wait, that's right... it's called a strawman!

:rofl:

Nice attempt to trash Chavez... it aint' workin.

Peace. :)

[400Years]

181. I know, the guy is making bullshit assumptions here.

Where has anybody claimed that Chavez is the solution to cheap gas?????

:rofl: :rofl:

[redqueen]

187. It's just a strawman being used to discredit Chavez.

Boy, they're really desperate, aren't they?

[corporate_mike]

197. where is your tin foil cap?

[redqueen]

201. Oh look! There's another non-sequitur!

It was entertaining... but it's gettin old FAST.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

215. No shit. I know you are but what am I? Neener, neener (for the record I'm

sticking my tongue out as I type this).

[redqueen]

222. BWAAAAAA!

:D

[Judi Lynn]

56. The people who were lucky enough to get the 40% reduction in cost

of their heating oil last winter, arranged by their DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMEN, and by Native American representatives of tribes working for their areas, after American oil companies told them to go pound sand when they begged for reduced rates for their poorer customers, were deeply appreciative.

[LynneSin]

51. Chavez helped out Delaware poor by selling us cheap heating oil

We were one of the 7 states that received this benefit.

He's doing more for our own state than our elected officials here.

Now, please - tell me why I should be anti-Chavez?

[corporate_mike]

55. while 67% of Venezuelan population lives below poverty line

does that make sense to you?

[LynneSin]

58. the poor in Venezuela are doing much better than they are here in the US

it's not going to be overnight that Chavez can rectify the problem but he cares more about his poor than Bush does of ours

[Bagsby]

65. Are you joking? Venezuela is a third-world country.

I've been to South America. You've never seen poverty until you have seen the totally abject conditions these people live in.

[rman]

97. Anecdotes don't count as evidence

Show me sources that prove the poor in Venezuela do not get free healthcare, education and food.

[Bagsby]

101. Goodness it's hard to prove a negative.

Show me the source that says Martians do not live on Pluto.

[corporate_mike]

125. I've been to Venezuela on several occasions

Maybe I should post some pictures.

Poverty like that is unimaginable.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

138. It took them about 80 years to get there. How long do you think that

it will take them to overcome their fucked up situation? Well, maybe those high oil prices will help them by providing more income for their country. That way you don't have to lose any sleep over their dire situation anymore. See I'm a glass half full kinda guy (no pun intended).

[redqueen]

145. Apparently, the poverty rate has already dropped 20%. n/t

[corporate_mike]

Based on what? Have a link?

or just more wild guesses

[redqueen]

157. Someone's already posted it for you. n/t

[AllieB]

218. Because you have a difficult time following a thread

I'll repost it for you:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1785

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

166. So I've heard, but never mind that. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

186. Here's something interesting on that poverty rate. You're right, it's

coming down in observable stages:

One important reform, long advocated by the International Monetary Fund, has been the improvement of tax collection. By requiring both foreign and domestically-owned companies to pay the taxes they owe, the government actually increased tax collection even during the deep recession of 2003 -- a rare economic feat.

As a result, the government is currently running a budget surplus, despite billions of dollars of increased social spending that now provides subsidized food to 40 percent of the population, health care for millions of poor people, and greatly increased education spending. The official poverty rate has fallen to 38.5 percent from its most recent peak of 54 percent after the opposition oil strike. But this measures only cash income; if the food subsidies and health care were taken into account, it would be well under 30 percent.
(snip/...)

http://www.cepr.net/columns/weisbrot/2005_11_01.htm

[redqueen]

195. Thanks, Judi!

:loveya:

Nice to see you injecting more FACTS into this strawman and non-sequitur filled thread. :) :) :)

[corporate_mike]

150. In other words, Chavez wants higher oil prices (my original point, btw)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

160. And I want a super model. So what? It doesn't mean he is controlling

it all in order to make it happen.

Now let's say he did. Wouldn't that be the corporate thing to do? That should make you like him even more Mikey.

[killbotfactory]

165. No, he wants oil prices below what they are today

According to the links being provided, he wants it at $50/per barrel. He wants to keep the price of oil relatively stable, within a band system, unlike it is today.

Maybe it's the oil. Lots of it. Chavez sits atop a reserve of crude that rivals Iraq's. And it's not his presidency of Venezuela that drives the White House bananas, it was his presidency of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, OPEC. While in control of the OPEC secretariat, Chavez cut a deal with our maximum leader of the time, Bill Clinton, on the price of oil. It was a 'Goldilocks' plan. The price would not be too low, not too high; just right, kept between $20 and $30 a barrel.

But Dick Cheney does not like Clinton nor Chavez nor their band. To him, the oil industry's (and Saudi Arabia's) freedom to set oil prices is as sacred as freedom of speech is to the ACLU. I got this info, by the way, from three top oil industry lobbyists.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0816-03.htm

But I'm sure you'll call him a stupid bastard for not wanting the highest price of oil he can possibly get, now.

[redqueen]

169. What do you expect him to be more concerned with?

Lifting his own people out of poverty, or making spoiled consumers here happy with his decisions?

:rofl:

You're really funny!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

184. Also your "original point" was that he wants them even more than oil

execs or companies or whatever. How did you arrive to that conclusion? If Ven. gets 80% of their economy from oil and the oil co.s get 100% profit from oil (being that they are OIL companies and all). Wouldn't the companies want it just as much if not more?

[killbotfactory]

147. Guess how all that poverty built up?

Hint: It wasn't under Chavez and his "freedom-crushing communiest dicatorship", it was from the people that preceded him, and have opposed his policies trying to help the poor with education, reading, jobs, etc. from day one. Often times violently opposed.

[corporate_mike]

78. I nominate that for Joke of the Day

you obviously have never been to Venezuela

[rman]

88. So please tell us about the state of the poor in Venezuela

Do they not have free healthcare, education and food, and don't they get micro-credits to start their own businesses? Is there not still massive popular support for Chavez by the poor?

[LynneSin]

92. we'll, you haven't been to parts of the United States

At least chavez is getting RID of his debt so the profits earned can be used for his country. I think he has like 75% of his national debt cleared.

We have no right to judge what is going on in Venezuela knowing that there are parts of this country that are just as destitute here in the United States and the scary thing is more of our country is heading in that direction.

Consider it this way - sure Venezuela is has more in poverty but that number is decreasing whereas in the United States it's getting much worse.

Just because you live in a comfy home doesn't mean everyone else in the United States has that same privilege. Only thing is we don't talk about it or show pictures of it because we want to try and portray ourselves as some great, wonderful country.

[corporate_mike]

128. Please do yourself a favor and book a trip to Venezuela

than you'll have something worthwhile to add

[400Years]

161. years of corporate elitist control results in a legacy of poverty

Do you think Chavez can magically erase that?

He is improving the conditions of the Venenzuela people and you try to blame him for the legacy of people you support?

:rofl:

[LynneSin]

214. Do yourself a favor and book a trip to rural US and the inner city

Maybe the corporation has warped your mind a bit too much. Although I've not been to Venezuela I've been to enough nations in the general area. Our poverty is not the same as theirs but ours is getting worse with our government doing nothing to get us out of it. Hell, Chavez did more to help the poor here in Delaware than any elected official in the United States has.

We have a great amount of wealth in this country but it's in a small portion of the population. Perhaps a journey to some of these areas devastated with poverty will give you a wake up call and realize that the US isn't as good as we use to be.

I feel at least in Venezuela there is hope whereas I see none here in the us.

Stop sucking up to the corporations that have so corrupted your vision!

[corporate_mike]

277. You admit that you've not been to Venezuela - case closed

As I said, you cannot imagine the poverty there.

[400Years]

292. that poverty is a legacy of corporate control

Your legacy, if you will.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

59. Down from 80% since he was elected. But of course you knew that.n/t

[David__77]

73. More sense than the US launching a war while homeless are in the streets.

...

[rman]

81. while the poor in Venezuela now have free healthcare, education and food

Which they didn't have during the corporate rule before Chavez.

You're not being selective with your facts are you?

[Judi Lynn]

84. 80% of the Venezuelan people lived below the poverty line BEFORE

Chavez was elected. Everyone knows that.

Hugo Chavez has given them what they never had before. Think they won't fight to keep it and him? Wouldn't you in their place if the alternative was desperate poverty? That's what 80% of them had before, they're still poor and deprived, but everyone gets free: first rate health and dental care and education through as high a level as they can attain. They also get subsidized food, the legal right they never had before to own the land their homes were built on and lots more. The result is a significant improvement in the lives and welfare of the Venezuelan poor that comprise the great majority of the population and Chavez's base of support.
(snip)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12788.htm

[corporate_mike]

102. are you saying Venezuela does not get income from oil today?

[Judi Lynn]

116. It's a mystery that you would suggest I DID say that. n/t

[redqueen]

137. It's a non-sequitur...

and it's being used here as a diversionary tactic, it seems.

[redqueen]

134. No, she's proving that Chavez HELPS THE POOR with that money...

UNLIKE that greedy $&#@*()%&#$ that just retired wealthy as a king.

[corporate_mike]

139. How is much is Chavez personally make a year?

Huh?

[redqueen]

156. I haven't implied that I knew... YOU did.

So... how much?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

210. Trying to have your cake and eat it too?

You started off by complaining about high oil prices. But high oil prices are being used to help Venezuelan poor. No you're complaining about Venezuelan poor.

You didn't think this through very carefully, did you?

[killbotfactory]

141. Chavez is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't

If Chavez discounts oil for the poor, he's an evil bastard for depriving Venezuela from precious revenue.

If he wants to boost revenue, he's an evil bastard for making us suffer high oil prices.

Nevermind that he wants a reasonable price for oil (approx $23 dollars per barrel lower than we are currently getting (no thanks to Bush). He also wants to keep the price of oil within fixed bands so it doesn't jump out of control. Chavez opponents will just find something else to bitch about. "He doesn't want $70/barrel? Doesn't he care about his own country... that's precious money that could be feedin the hungry blah blah blah".

[Judi Lynn]

170. Very puzzling "reasoning," for sure.

Bewildering to see both sides coming from one source with the same degree of righteous indignation.

[rman]

57. Guardian: Chávez seeks to peg oil at $50 a barrel

Chávez seeks to peg oil at $50 a barrel
· Price could see Venezuela producing for 200 years
· Country's reserves may exceed Saudi Arabia's

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1745467,00.html

Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez is poised to launch a bid to transform the global politics of oil by seeking a deal with consumer countries which would lock in a price of $50 a barrel.

A long-term agreement at that price could allow Venezuela to count its huge deposits of heavy crude as part of its official reserves, which Caracas says would give it more oil than Saudi Arabia.

"We have the largest oil reserves in the world, we have oil for 200 years." Mr Chávez told the BBC's Newsnight programme in an interview to be broadcast tonight. "$50 a barrel - that's a fair price, not a high price."

<more>

[rman]

77. So Big Oil (Exxon etc) are not price gouging?

[corporate_mike]

79. this thread is about Chavez (our supposed saviour from high oil prices)

noone is defending Exxon

[killbotfactory]

96. He's our "savior from high" oil prices, now?

WTF?

Chavez seems to have gotten someone's panties in a bunch.

[rman]

106. So why does your OP suggest Chavez is the cause of high oil prices?

[redqueen]

140. Who told you Chavez was our savior from high oil prices?

:wtf:

The person who should act to reduce oil prices is Bush. Same way the president did during WWII.

[corporate_mike]

158. Have you read the 50+ thread here on DU?

[redqueen]

178. I've seen more than that during my time here.

Which one says "CHAVEZ TO SAVE US FROM HIGH OIL PRICES!"?

[400Years]

167. Who made that claim?

Put down the pipe. I guess you just want to ride around in your car and whine about high oil prices.

[peacetalksforall]

Your post is disingenuous. Wikipedia is not a valid link to prove your

claim - for two reasons - there is nothing there that supports your claim and Wikipedia is a voluntary collaboration of near anonymous contributors - even if there was something in the description of Venezuela that supported your claim.

Please provide valid links - especially for the vulnerable new posters who have magically appeared on this particular thread - posters who may not have read the archives about Chavez - especially about help given to the poor - something Republicans are not about doing, but whose plight they want to make worse.

We will be swayed by your claim if you provide some proof. In the meantime - poof! Poof to what you wrote. Put it in concrete context by supporting it and the source and who the source is.

Edit - posted to the attention of Mike.

[corporate_mike]

95. Ignore Wiki - focus on the fact that oil is substantial part of income

for Venezuela's government

[Avalux]

104. So what? At least they're trying to feed people.

What excuse does Exxon have? Ummm.....lining the pockets of oil men and sheiks.

[rman]

112. And again you single out Venezuela

while you know full well there are other bigger forces driving the price of oil.

g*d you're tranparent.

[corporate_mike]

118. so says the guy with the Chavez avatar :(

who's transparent, son?

I have no vested interest in this, except I want to see oil prices drop. What about you?

[rman]

127. My avatar does not mean you don't single out Venezuela

as the cause of high oil prices while ignoring other obvious forces at play.

[corporate_mike]

136. I'm simply tring to balance the 50+ pro-Chavez threads here

[leftstreet]

162. Where are the 50+ pro-Chavez threads? I can't find 'em.

:shrug:

Or do mean there was a pro-Chavez thread restricted to 50+ yr olds?

[corporate_mike]

185. LOL, I need that laugh

[rman]

220. There may have been 50 pro-Chavez threads,

over the past year or so.

Progressive folks like progressive leaders.

But for some, truth be damned - "balance" is where it's at, even if it means you have to lie for it.

[rman]

206. By simply being disengenuous

Thing is, i don't have to make anything up in support of Chavez.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

130. Hey Mikey turn that frown upside down. It's Friday, time to kick it. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

129. So will our Chimperor say "Wees gots to invade them!"

And old Man Coulter can be the top General, Converting the Venezuelan people from Catholicism to Ultra Southern Baptist. Bee cuz wee alls know that those Catholics ain't Christian, i.e., only kool-aid drinking right wing Protestants are BushBotBorg's type of Christian. :P

[peacetalksforall]

149. It's your logic only, Mike.

But it does create an opportunity to attack Chavez who is on everyone's watch and wait list. Hoping he is sincere about improving the plight of millions of people who ended up in the poverty group in a country that had a HUGE gap between the rich and poor - the rich of whom have ALWAYS gone along with US imperialism along with World Bank IMF (read USA) influence and usury, many of whom can now be found living in Miami, Palm Beach, the Sun Coast of Spain, or Madrid or London.

Finally, Venezuela's people are getting educated and getting jobs. This is the least that human beings can ask for. Maybe they'll get more. Maybe Chavez will disappoint those of us who are accused of having bleeding hearts.

If it happens we'll post here (hopefully) and make a reasoned case for our rant against him.

[n2doc]

83. We are the problem, not them

We are the junkies who keep buying gas. We are the ones who elect and re-elect "leaders" who refuse to support alternative energy and higher milage standards. We are the ones still buying 15 mpg trucks and SUV's. We are the ones using disposable plastic crap for everything.

Why should be be surprised that they want more for their resources? What gives us the right to tell them they can't charge more if we are willing to keep buying? They are looking after their countries.

(Note before you all get huffy I know there are lots of folks here who are doing what they can to not be part of the problem. I am refering to "we" in the general, national sense. And I will be the first to say that I am part of the problem and have not changed my lifestyle enough).

[Bandit]

90. Alaska wants higher oil prices as well

Chavez actually lowered his prices during the winter months for poorer sections of America. When did Exxon do that or Chevron? You are the one that needs to get their facts straight. Veneseula is far better off under Chavez than America is under Bush*. At least he gives a damn for his people.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

103. People get a clue. Oil companies and execs want high oil prices. Oh my god

they get 100% percent of their profits from oil. Venezuela gets 80% but they want it even more as proven by er, uhhhm my.... psychic powers and my many meetings with Hugo Chavez's cabinet.

[corporate_mike]

133. Venezuela is a founding members of OPEC (cartel) - Oil co's are NOT

Is that so difficult to understand?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

146. I understand that somebody's getting cranky. Maybe you should go for a

drive..... oh wait never mind.

[NNN0LHI]

107. For anyone who doesn't like this let me buy something you own...

...for about half what its worth. Cars, houses, anything. If you will sell it to me for half the fair market value I will buy it.

Don

[Armstead]

109. And I suppose the Oilogopoly there is any better?

I can't read Hugo Chavez's mind, but you are pointing fingers at one ruler while ignoring eeryone else who is involved in oil pricing.


Do you suppose that the Corporate Oligarchs who ran Venezuala before Chavez would be giving away oil?

Do you think that the Big Oil Companies in the US would be willing to forego their massive profits for the good of the American people?

Seems to me that your main objection to Chavez is his politics. He's not my hero, but I'd rather see a populist leftist like him who is trying to put the oil revenues to use to improve the lot of the poor majority there, than a bunch of Venezuelan Yuppies merely using it to line their own pockets while letting the poor there rot.

[rman]

117. We'll see much more of this once US govt starts drumming up support

for invasion of Venezuela. Oh, let me correct that: support for "bringing democracy" to Venezuela.

It may not be W, but it will happen unless a major shift in public awareness of world events takes place in the wealthy nations.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

119. OH MY GOD PEOPLE, I JUST HEARD THAT RUSSIA WOULD LIKE HIGH

NATURAL GAS PRICES SO THAT THE Y CAN MAKE A LOT OF MONEY..........NOOOOOOOOOO!

Also Chile would like to see the price of copper to be even higher, those sons of bitches.

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. And I heard that the coffee bean farmers are asking for

an increase in the price of their beans too!!

They are doing it ON PURPOSE to keep me from drinking my coffee. I don't care that half their crop was destroyed by bad weather and the processing plant in New Orleans was damaged in Katrina.

I want affordable coffee. I DEMAND my caffeine.

Damn capitalists.

(Did I sound like a repukelican? Hope so. Reading this thread made me feel like one LOL)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

143. Those bastards, I say we get some pitchforks and torches. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. Let's sic Chavez on em!!

[redqueen]

123. Your username is SO appropriate.

:rofl:

[corporate_mike]

131. when you lose the argument, attack the person

[redqueen]

183. You ARE your username?

You have a funny sort of logic!

And who's losing this argument again?

Who said Chavez was our savior from high oil prices?

:rofl:

Keep it up! This is fun!

[AllieB]

236. You're grasping at straws, corporate_mike

Everyone here that is refuting your assertions has provided links and facts, and not Faux News talking points and strawman arguments.

[rman]

124. Come to think of it, i think this is a parody of RW spin.

Thanks for the laughs Mike!

:thumbsup:

[Kolesar]

154. :) ... eom

[ronnie624]

132. I have little regard for whiny Americans

who believe as result of their lifelong nationalist indoctrination they are special and therefore entitled to cheap gas--that crude oil is one of our "vital national interests", therefore by definition we have a right to interfere in the affairs of other countries.

If you can't afford gasoline then don't buy it--or purchase a vehicle that gets better fuel mileage. Venezuela has every right to benefit from profits based on whatever the market will bear. For many decades U.S. Americans have benefited at the expense of the people of Latin America, and Hugo Chavez is now only setting things right.

But in the end, the high fuel prices are a good thing anyway. What else will motivate us to stop burning hydrocarbons as an energy source thereby altering the chemical composition of the biosphere to the point that it will no longer support us as a species? Certainly not logic and reason.

[killbotfactory]

226. High gas prices wouldn't be the problem they are today

If we elected leaders with some foresight. Or if we elected leaders who are corrupt puppets of sociopathic oil men.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

155. Quick! Get the smelling salts! Producers want higher prices!!

I'm stunned! Of course, our noble capitalists shun selling for higher prices and getting more profits.

[corporate_mike]

163. Which is why Chavez/Citgo are not part of the solution to high oil prices

Thanks for making point

[400Years]

177. Who said they were?

The support here for Chavez is because he is standing up for Venezuelan independence and has fought to end years of elitist control in that country. NOT because he promised cheaper oil.

You seem to being imagining things.

[corporate_mike]

188. Hundreds of DU posters

Read my intro post. I started this thread because everyone here seems to think that if you buy gas from Citgo, oil prices will drop. Oh, and Chavez is such a lovely guy, he wants us to pay less for gas.

[Asgaya Dihi]

202. Do they?

I'm not aware of anyone who thinks prices will drop, I tend to buy from Citgo because I'd rather my money go toward someone who is helping their people rather than hurting them like our oil companies seem prone to do. Got to buy from somebody, better a neutral one than a bad one.

Studios want to sell more movies tickets, drug companies have been gouging us for years, and our oil companies aren't doing a thing to spread some of their new found wealth around and help the American people. Chavez seems to be using his nations wealth to improve conditions for the poor.

They were an oil nation before Chavez, they were a poor nation before Chavez. He didn't create it, and when the coup happened a couple of million of his people poured into the streets to demand him back. Good enough for me, I don't need to want him for my leader to see that we should probably just leave him alone. Him using his resources to help his own people doesn't make him a bad guy, I wish our leaders would do that too. We could use it.

[Judi Lynn]

221. Great post. Very clear. Hope the original poster will focus on it.

Welcome to D.U. :hi: :hi: :hi:

[killbotfactory]

205. Everytime I see people saying to buy Citgo

It's because the profits they get go to help poor people in Venezuela, and some of the poor people here, as opposed to say... a billionaire Bush supporter who has more money than god.

[400Years]

208. do you always make stuff up?

Or is this something new.

Again, I will repeat this to you slowly....Chavez is supported here because of his agenda not because of some promise for cheap gas. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD.

[redqueen]

209. Link to back up your claim please?

O8)

I'll settle for links to just a DOZEN claims that Chavez will lower oil prices. (Oh, besides that article a couple of people have kindly posted for you, showing that he does want them lowered significantly from their current rate).

Thanks!

[Judi Lynn]

212. I've seen DU'ers posting who believe buying from Citgo is worthwhile

because the profits go to a very good cause. I've NEVER seen them imagine that buying from Citgo would make prices go lower.

I have read DU'ers comparing CITGO prices in their areas favorably with other prices. Many have stated certain CITGO products are slightly cheaper than from other sources.

Not once have I seen anyone claiming prices will drop because of patronizing CITGO.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

216. Why should he be? If you don't like the prices don't buy.

Get lower prices from Exxon, BC, Shell. Good luck.

[Sensitivity]

180. All the years of Oil under $30/barrel were ripp-off of Producers -- who

was complaining about the rape of Venezuela's natural resources then?

[yodermon]

196. I'm confused

Are you criticising him for being a Socialist or a Capitalist?

[corporate_mike]

199. I'm simply tring to balance the 50+ pro-Chavez threads here

by pointing out that he is not the solution to high oil prices.

[redqueen]

217. Why balance it? Dont' we get enough of that from FAUX news?

:rofl:

[AllieB]

238. I thought his talking points sounded familiar

:freak:

[yodermon]

234. um.

Oil is at 73.
He wants to cap it at 50.
Ergo, he wants to lower prices.
QED.

[redqueen]

242. SIMPLE!

I wonder if THAT'S all he's been spewing about... that simple FACT.

Unbelievable...

[corporate_mike]

281. low IQ + assumptions = easy QED

Google's stock is at $425
I want to cap my options gains at $400

Does that mean I want the stock to drop?

[corporate_mike]

203. For the record, I drive a Prius

I'm not terribly concerned about gas prices.

Just pointing out that all the Citgo hype is not the solution.

[400Years]

213. Whoever said Citgo was a solution to high gas prices.

How many times are you going to make that bullshit claim?

We would just rather our money go to a better cause than fattening the wallets of the crooks who run Exxon.

[corporate_mike]

223. I'm too lazy to post all the links - read some of the thread for yourself

[400Years]

225. just post one

[redqueen]

229. I'm betting he won't.

:7

[corporate_mike]

244. poor attempt at reverse phycology?

[rman]

247. you still haven't posted one example

[redqueen]

249. Nope! Just a statement of fact.

That's what I think! You'll never post links to anyone claiming that Chavez is our savior from high oil prices, because, from what I can tell, you've only made that inference based on the threads about his wanting to peg oil at $50 a barrell, which, as you well know, is NOT the same thing. :)

Since you didn't answer before, I'll ask again:

WHY are you wanting to 'balance' the Chavez threads here? What is the reason for it?

Because honestly, that's part of the reason the media is so $#&*(@ed up now. They've overreacted to mendacious claims by the loony right wing that the media is liberal, so even if it isn't really... they go overboard promoting the views of those kooks. Not really a productive thing, is it? Or even meaningful, for that matter... it's just mindless.

[EstimatedProphet]

300. Reverse study of mushrooms? Dude, lay off the drugs.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

224. Sorry, not buying it. At least Chavez is putting a good percentage....

...of those oil profits into programs designed to raise Venezuela's standard of living and create jobs for those that need them the most.

Instead of berating the leader of a foreign country, why don't you turn your attention to the real despot in this story? That despot is the NeoCon that has been illegally squatting in the White House for more than five years.

As far as your comments about OPEC, maybe you ought to take a look at what the NeoCon Junta is attempting to do to the OPEC countries around the world:

Currently Allied with the NeoCons:
----------------------------------
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Kuwait
Qatar
Libya

Currently occupied by U. S. troops:
-----------------------------------
Iraq

Currently being Threatened by the NeoCons:
------------------------------------------
Iran
Venezuela

U. S. Troops in Neighboring Countries:
--------------------------------------
Algeria
Nigeria

Unknown Status in Regards to the NeoCons:
--------------------------------------
Indonesia


So, who's REALLY pulling the strings in regards to the policies and prices set by OPEC? Isn't it in the best interests of the U. S. companies to have high prices set by OPEC?

Think about it.

[redqueen]

232. Great post.

:hi:

[corporate_mike]

243. consider this

"Isn't it in the best interests of the U. S. companies to have high prices set by OPEC?"

Of course not!

There are maybe 10 oil companies that benefit from high prices, but airlines, hunderds of manufacturing companies, etc. pay higher prices for oil. Overall, companies lose a lot more than the handful oil companies make.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

270. Oh, my. You're even more delusional than I originally thought....

...do you seriously think the oil companies and the people that run them give a crap about what happens to non-oil companies?

[corporate_mike]

279. I don't - I work in the airline industry, I know

[tjwash]

233. You tell us to get our facts straight, and you use wikipedia as a source?

:rofl:
Un. Effing. Believable.

Step slowly away from the kool-aid, OK?

[CottonBear]

235. Links to news & analysis from Venezuela and Central and South America:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/

http://www.narconews.com/

[corporate_mike]

311. Try this link

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200401310730

[rman]

245. Getting sick of the lies about poverty in Venezuela

To counter the "i've been there" anacdotes on how miserably poor the poor in Venezuela are.

If Greg Palast is making things up, then who's to say if those who claim to have been there aren't making things up. At least Palast has video and interviews with locals to back up his claims.


Sure a majority is not rich and is living under 'minimal' conditions. But unlike during the US supported corporate rule of Venezuela before Chavez (which created the poverty to begin with), now the poor there have free healthcare, education and food. Also they get micro-credits to help them start their own businesses. It took Chavez two years to elliminate illiteracy.
These poor are in fact a lot less poor then many of the poor in the US.


(on edit: all streaming and downloadable videos)
==

BBC Newsnight - Greg Palast on Chavez

Clip from BBC Newsnight. Greg Palast has a holiday in Venezuala and discusses Chavez in a non-propagandist manner. Oil prices feature, as does George.

http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1195

==

Truthout - World Social Forum in Venezuela

Venezuela Day 1: Kickoff at the World Social Forum
Venezuela Day 2: The Opposition to Chavez
Venezuela Day 3: Into the Barrio
World Social Forum Finale

http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm

==

Chavez: Inside the Coup - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

Fantastic documentary following Chavez & his supporters in one of the world's richest countries in terms of oil reserves struggling in order to stop their oil money being used to prop up a few rich elites supported by the USA. The methods utilised by those who wish to depose Chavez and reverse his reforms is chilling, not least when Venezuala's privately owned television network purports to transmit footage of Chavez supporters shooting unarmed civilians; unfortunately for them the documentary makers not only witnessed the true turn of events but also have footage to prove it...gripping stuff!

http://chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=95

http://www.chavezthefilm.com/index_ex.htm

[corporate_mike]

250. Please do yourself a favor and book a trip to Venezuela

stop relying on websites for information

[rman]

253. It's a BBC 4 TV report - not a website

I'll take Greg Palast's word over yours any day.

For all i know you may never have actually been there, or not recently, or if you did then you weren't paying attention to all the government funded programs to help the poor.

[redqueen]

255. Exactly... Wikipedia... *that's* a website. n/t

[redqueen]

254. You meant to say journalists, right?

By the way, when were you in Venezuela? For how long?

[rman]

256. Obviouly you didn't even bother to check out those "web sites"

[Bridget Burke]

266. What about those of us who don't work for a corporation....

That will pay for the ticket?

[rman]

287. For those not familiar with torrents

You'll need a "bittorrent" client to download torrent files (video in this case) to your PC. Once downloaded you can view it like any other video. The trick with bittorrent is that the more people are downloading the same file, the faster the downloading goes.

One of the better bittorrent clients is Azerus http://azureus.sourceforge.net/

[Name removed]

261. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftstreet]

264. ...$50 a barrel....50+ DU threads

:tinfoilhat:

:rofl:

[Name removed]

289. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[corporate_mike]

295. WRONG - I'm saying that Oil Co's and Chavez BOTH want to raise prices

[EstimatedProphet]

297. Really? Because that's not what you said.

Chavez and Venezuela would love to see oil prices go higher. Much higher. They do everything they can to influnce market to get higher prices.

Oil companies are NOT part of OPEC

You're obviously clueless. US oil companies DON'T SET the price of oil.

Every time someone brought up US oil corporations, when you responded it was to say that they don't set oil prices-which has nothing to do with whether they act to raise those prices after all-and you use that to claim that they don't want high oil prices.

[corporate_mike]

302. Those are all correct statements. Exxon and Chavez/Citgo both want higher

prices.

[LittleClarkie]

306. They also don't allow people to call their fellow DUer freepers either

until proven otherwise with a tombstone, mind you.

[EstimatedProphet]

312. Believe it or not, I really didn't intend it that way

Poor wording on my part.

[Blue_Roses]

262. Some FACTS on OPEC and price setting...

Does OPEC Set Crude Oil Prices?

Frequently asked questions about crude oil

One of the most common misconceptions about OPEC is that the Organization is responsible for setting crude oil prices. Although OPEC did in fact set crude oil prices from the early 1970s to the mid-1980s, this is no longer the case. It is true that OPEC's Member Countries do voluntary restrain their crude oil production in order to stabilize the oil market and avoid harmful and unnecessary price fluctuations, but this is not the same thing as setting prices.

In today's complex global markets, the price of crude oil is set by movements on the three major international petroleum exchanges, all of which have their own Web sites featuring information about oil prices. They are the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX, http://www.nymex.com), the International Petroleum Exchange in London (IPE, http://www.ipe.uk.com) and the Singapore International Monetary Exchange (SIMEX, http://www.simex.com.sg).

more..

http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q20.htm

[corporate_mike]

271. You actually posted an OPEC pr piece

LOL

[Blue_Roses]

273. it's still the facts...

From reading your other posts, I see you have a pre-mind set. I'm not trying to defend anyone, other than present some facts. It's a misconception that OPEC sets the price of crude oil. It allows production to influence the market. Supply and demand. One hand feeds the other.

[corporate_mike]

278. much like going to Exxon's website to get "Exxon facts"

lol

[Blue_Roses]

284. Corporate_Mike, it seems the only web

sight you can link us to to get any facts is Wikipedia. :rofl:

You don't want to see facts.



OPEC's Failure to Control Crude Oil Prices
OPEC has seldom been effective at controlling prices. While often referred to as one OPEC does not satisfy the definition of a cartel. One of the primary requirements is a mechanism to enforce member quotas. During the 1979-1980 period of rapidly increasing prices, Saudi Arabia's oil minister Ahmed Yamani repeatedly warned other members of OPEC that high prices would lead to a reduction in demand. His warnings fell on deaf ears.

http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

[Bridget Burke]

267. I've never thought Chavez was a "Hero"

But I've thought he definitely had his good points.

However, each idiotic attack on Chavez makes me appreciate him more.

[rman]

290. "Negative Return" - it's like Diminished Return, only worse

It's when increased effort does not just yield relatively less return then previously, but when increased effort yields the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

[happydreams]

282. What we need is a Bolivarian revolution in the US!

[rman]

291. Venezuela Bolivariana: People and Struggle of the Fourth World War (2004)

Another video about Venezuela and Chavez.

We need such a revolution for the entire world.

==

http://chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1239

Venezuela Bolivariana: People and Struggle of the Fourth World War (2004)
Description: This documentary examines the Bolivarian Revolution of Venezuela and its links to the world-wide movement against capitalist globalization. The film shows the evolution of the popular movement in Venezuela from the "Caracazo" riots of 1989 to the massive actions that brought revolutionary president Hugo Chavez back to power, 48 hours after a U.S.-led military coup in 2002.

The main theme is how the Bolivarian Revolution, thanks to its incredible grassroots and networking power, is a revolution that transcends the national frontiers of Venezuela and contributes with concrete alternatives to the fight against neoliberal capitalism.

Runtime: 76 min

Calle Y Media Collective: http://www.calleymedia.org

IMDB link: http://imdb.com/title/tt0463771/
Date: 2004
Keywords: Venezuela, Culture, Globalisation, Social Struggles

========

You'll need a "bittorrent" client to download torrent files (video in this case) to your PC. Once downloaded you can view it like any other video. The trick with bittorrent is that the more people are downloading the same file, the faster the downloading goes.
One of the better bittorrent clients is Azerus http://azureus.sourceforge.net /

[corporate_mike]

294. example of Chavez' attempt to drive up oil prices so he can profit more

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x988320

[stepnw1f]

296. Awwwww... boohoohoo

to you too. How's Abramoff doing?

[Imagevision]

298. Chavez is sticking it to Bush - plain and simple we pay the price for

having an incompetant prez, can't get along with no-one!!

[Tsiyu]

299. Then why did he offer low-cost oil to American communities?

If he's only in it for the $$$, why would he do that?

And where are all of these imperialistic wars Chavez is waging across the globe? OH. WAIT. He's working on his OWN country, not trying to fix everyone else's!

He is a controversial figure, no doubt. Some of his ideas are not going over well. But he still has a lot going for him...a lot more than the Dunce-In-Chief who leads our nation around like a cave-man bride.

[corporate_mike]

301. PR stunt - 67% of Venezuelans live below poverty level

why doesn't he help them?

[Tsiyu]

303. He does

He has many programs for the poor. Wealth is still distributed unevenly - just as in the US, but he has done much to support education and other public services for the poor.

Currently, he is working on ending Venezuela's food dependence and low agrigultural productivity. In a controversial move, he is taking over private landholdings to begin a public farm program. He is redistributing wealth and not all are happy about it, but in the end, low cost ag products help the poor. I don't know that I approve of his approach, but it is just another form of taxation in some ways, to have to give something to the government.

He's doing more than Bush is doing for the poor. And pissing off some of the rich.

[maxsolomon]

304. chavez doesn't hate the amurkin people

he hates bush. just like me.

the sauds are the opposite. that's why i like chavez better.

venezuela may be a founder of OPEC, but it was not chavez who did that. it was likely an american toady.

why shouldn't it go higher? it is the most precious commodity on the planet, at the same time its use is killing the planet.

[K-W]

307. You seem to have mistaken Democratic Underground

for a website that cares only about the price of oil.

You bet Venezuala benefits from high oil prices, so what?

Venezuala is experiencing surge in democracy and social development, and since this is democraticunderground and not fillmytankcheapunderground that is what matters. Its thier oil, they can charge what they want.

[LittleClarkie]

310. Well, some of us DO care about $3 a gallon of gas

But I thought it had more to do with the futures market or something. I'm admittedly not all that up on the reasons for the gas prices, but listening to Ed Schultz, there was a caller who seemed certain it had to do with the futures market, and the fact that oil hadn't been speculated on before, and now it was, and that's what was driving up the price.

I've only the vaguest clue what that's about.

I not all that into Chavez and/or what he's doing in Venezuala, but pointing to Venezuala as only one of several OPEC countries as being somehow responsible for our high gas prices seems rather off somehow. I'm sure there's more to it than that. Of course OPEC nations want to make a profit. They always have.

What I want to know is if there is something driving up the price BEYOND where it should be, artifically. And then there is our standing in the world to think about. We've managed to piss off quite a few countries with our antics around the world. So I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it too.

[Lefty48197]

308. I've never been the 314th person to respond to a post before

so I thought I'd make this one my first.