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Joesunionreview Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 08:45 PM
Original message
Unions force jobs overseas
This is a response I wrote to the ignorant mob over at the Newsvine on a story entitled "http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/11/03/2066784-labor-unions-get-boost-from-boeing-strike?threadId=407561&commentId=3859979#c3859979">Labor unions get boost from Boeing strike", where in the first sentence the author states that the Boeing strike has:
given a shot in the arm to a weakening organized labor movement in America.
I had to remind him about his choice of wording and respond to the anti-union views I read in the comment's, here's what I had to say:



Firstly a note to the author: Last year for the first time since 1984 the http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/01/anti-union-blogging.html">union membership has risen in America, hence a strengthening labor movement is more accurate, secondly to all the people who have posted before me, and those who read afterwords:

I believe that the complacent American people have moved jobs overseas, and I'm right.
http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/06/video-bill-moyers-addresses-national.html">The day you all decided that the poison pet food from China was OK, the cheap plastic piece of crap toy with the lead paint from Wal-Mart was fine for your kid to put in their mouth, the day you blamed the US auto worker and not the greedy companies that used our tax money to make http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_Generation_of_Vehicles">concept cars that got 80+ MPG over ten years ago and didn't bring it to market, that was when YOU gave our jobs overseas. When you decided to talk to http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/09/video-how-to-beat-outsourcing.html">Apu in India, masquerading as "Charlie" for your PC's tech support and didn't http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/10/found-denim-bibs-made-in-usa.html">demand an American at the other end of the phone, the day you let the undocumented worker mow your lawn, that day you all http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/02/carhartt-red-wing-shoes-and-more-union.html">closed your eyes and bought http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/04/vietnam-nike-workers-who-average-less.html">Nike sneakers that some Vietnamese guy made for a whopping $64 a month over the http://www.nbwebexpress.com/madeinusa_nb.htm">New Balance that was half the price and made by the head of an American family.
This is cross-posted all over the place

You watched with your head up your behind when such staples of American life as http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/04/free-trades-working-victims-2-haitis.html">Wrangler Jeans moved to Haiti, where even the workers make less than $2 a day and are forced to eat clay sandwiches with salt to stave off the hunger pains, and to such places as http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/04/free-trades-working-victims-bangladeshs.html">Bangladesh, where even the highest paid of the regular working class must stand in thousand people lines to get government subsidized rice, you still sit there idle and watch http://tinyurl.com/5ddocw">Hershey's chocolate move 1,500 jobs to Mexico for $2 an hour wages, and http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/02/state-of-media-in-usa-today.html">you allow the media to brainwash you with fluff of http://tinyurl.com/6an3xp">Paris and Britney's sniffer, you are the reason we are here today. You http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2007/12/merry-wal-mart-christmas-kids-come.html">closed your eyes and gave our industry and our jobs away.

Don't blame the unions for the http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/04/ks-state-passes-bill-that-will.html">loss of good American jobs, blame yourself. You blindly point your fingers at the http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/09/heres-great-article-i-read-at-campaign.html">only institutions that try to help the American worker, because http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/08/massive-corporations-against-employee.html">that's exactly what they want you to do.

http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/09/freedom-of-press.html">Your ignorance disgusts me, your grandparents would slap you. They fought for what you have http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/02/offshoring-and-h1b-visa-abuse-1-2-punch.html">blindly gave away, even http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/08/child-labor-in-america.html">child labor has made a comeback, as an immigration raid in Pottsville, Iowa, which grabbed almost 400 workers in the Agriprocessors Kosher meatpacking plant, has been found to have over 30 workers who were underage, the youngest was on the KILL floor, she was 13. This year also saw how a http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/01/blatant-racism-another-death-and-injury.html">13 year old who was working with his father in Illinois, http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/10/disposable-worker-dies-and-13-year-old.html">fell 3 stories from a forklift and watched his father die. That doesn't even mention the http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/08/stop-senseless-deaths-on-california.html">pregnant teenager from Mexico who died on a California vineyard because she wasn't allowed to stop for a water break. Yes, you allow that and wonder why the Salmonella has spread into out food supply, and http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/10/video-fox-news-monsanto-cover-up-bovine.html">no one in any media outlet comes to the conclusion that maybe they don't get a potty break either. You all http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/06/glenn-beck-commentary-slavery-alive-and.html">get what you deserve, less and less. Until you get rid of http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/07/utah-creates-loophole-to-encourage-use.html">your blinders and see exactly how they have sold us out, it's only gonna get worse.

So http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/01/getting-killed-at-wal-mart-construction.html">enjoy your crap from http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/10/wal-mart-closes-only-union-department.html">Wal-mart, your now made in China air conditioner that 1 in 10 don't work, your poison food and your self-created rat race to http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/02/offshoring-and-h1b-visa-abuse-1-2-punch.html">compete with workers that have little or no rights in foreign lands and http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/03/slavery-alive-and-well-in-usa-part-2.html">within our own borders.

http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/06/ed-ott-executive-director-of-ny-central.html">When the labor movement dies, when we must all http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/06/vt-letters-of-americas-new-struggle.html">fend for ourselves, when you must have http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/06/vt-letters-of-americas-new-struggle.html">at least 3 sources of income to survive and http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/06/video-collapse-of-middle-class-part-2.html">work 12 hours a day with no hope for a dignified retirement, don't come crying to me. Just keep your mind occupied with all the crap they throw your way and http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/06/video-george-carlin-they-want-obedient.html">make sure your kid's can pass a test and http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/10/bill-hicks-life-is-but-ride.html">are discouraged from critical thinking so http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/04/starbucks-kfc-and-pizza-hut-3500.html">the manager's at http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/06/heres-couple-of-cute-images-from-david.html">McDonald's and the http://tinyurl.com/6mbkhh">military recruiter's can be http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/03/5-years-since-we-entered-iraq-list-of.html">well stocked with another group of clean slates to work with.

Joe, http://www.joesunionreview.com/">http://www.joesunionreview.com

Bah, I just get so sick of the bullsh!t these people choose to believe. If you like what I wrote over there, hit the little up arrow below my post.

See also "http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/10/why-unions-are-bad.html">Why unions are bad"

and check out the latest from Lobotero, the first commentor on this post and his latest "http://lobotero.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/open-letter-to-the-american-voter/" rel="bookmark">Open Letter To The American Voter"
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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. My thanks to the union review for the post

K&R!

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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. great response. k and r.
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nannah Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. pretty much sums it up
thanks for putting this out so clearly. to change a pattern, any element of the pattern can make change by changing their part of the pattern. this begins an alteration of the pattern, momentum could keep the change coming. you gave tangible steps we can take to change our part of the pattern.

i live in a town where walmart is the only retailer of many commonly used items, curtains, fabric, electronics, housewares, etc and the nearest large shopping area is 30 miles away.

it's a dilemma.
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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Fantastic.
I watched the drive to "globalize" roar into this country in the early 80's. It never made one ounce of sense then - never looked one ounce more sensible as it was instituted - and became the disaster for America it had to be.

And, as I read relentlessly (for nearly 30 years) about this weird science of globalization, there never was one SINGLE argument made for all of this nonsense that moved out of the realm of pure sophistry.

It simply was a type of religious view, held by a tiny American oligarchy, boomed through a de-regulated media, enacted by a corrupted government, until the rest of were simply drowned out and thrown away.

Nothing more. Not a SHRED of merit to the idea. Pure ideology meeting pure power.

Bah!

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Earth Bound Misfit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. Great post, Thanks...
:kick: & Rec
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Joesunionreview Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Your welcome n/t
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. I took a labor relations class in undergrad.
This was in 2000. I was in my late 30's, but none of my other classmates were over 25, and most were probably 18 or 19. I was shocked an appalled by how many people held the opinion that unions drove US industry to outsource labor! These same kids had no idea that the 40-hour work week, employee benefits, vacation and holiday pay, OSHA, and even child labor laws were all advanced and created by union activity. Gah! This was in Connecticut, most of these kids grew up under Lieberman's pro-business support--which their parents supported by electing the troll again and again even though they called themselves Dems. :puke:
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Too late to recommend but not to kick. I'm a small business owner. To be honest, I've never
been that big a fan of unions because of the abuses I hear about from people I have worked with over the years who worked in union shops. And, of course, we have all read about the strong-arm tactics used by the Teamsters and other unions, as well as the mob connections that make them less appealing to those of us who believe in the rule of law. Before you jump on me for saying that, I do realize that Big Business uses the same tactics, if not worse. I'm not saying that unions are bad, just that there are reasons that many Americans have drifted away from supporting them.

I agree 100% that we wouldn't have a lot of really good workplace benefits if unions had not been around to push for workers' rights. I'm not naive enough to think that Big Business gives up anything that would take away from their profit margins without a fight. The same also applies to many small business owners; although, I'm proud to say that my company does provide many of those benefits to our employees, including profit-sharing.

I do not shop at WalMart because of their horrendous treatment of their employees, plus the fact that they sell almost exclusively products that are made overseas. There are also the other huge drawbacks of their corporate power and how they use that to stifle competition and make local governments pay for the "privilege" of having a WalMart locate in their area, and the way their presence drives mom-n-pop businesses under.

My company buys American, union-made apparel for our workers because we want Americans to benefit and thrive. We have nothing against foreign workers, but we can't stand by and watch as job after job goes overseas while our American neighbors and friends lose their jobs and their hope for a better life. Again, in the interest of fairness, I have to say that I have not been that impressed with the customer service of the union company that we have been doing business with. We can get the products cheaper from a non-union, local company but we choose not to because we want to support a company that buys American products and distributes them in the U.S.

Joesunionreview, you are absolutely right that we have allowed the takeover of American enterprise by corporations that ship our jobs overseas. Almost everyone I know shops at WalMart. I patiently explain to them about the things that you talk about in your post, but it always boils down to one thing: cost of goods.

A huge majority of Americans have become so fixated on acquiring consumer goods that we no longer think about anything other than the price at the store. It is a disease that afflicts us. I don't know if there is a cure. Education about the COSTS to our economy, our environment, and our way of life would help. But, bottom line, it boils down to many Americans don't really care what the impact is on their fellow citizens. They only care about what they can purchase at a "cheaper" price. Until that changes, we are screwed, and getting more screweder by the day
.

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Joesunionreview Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thanks Bertman
Edited on Sun Nov-09-08 10:01 PM by Joesunionreview
I appreciate the well thought out response, I especially admire you speaking exactly how you feel.

Firstly I would have to agree with the mob atmosphere that was a common occurrence in unions for quite some time, I myself was in one who misused our pension contributions. That was only 15 years ago, but quite a long time in the greater scheme of things. Over the past 15 or so years and especially under the Bush administration the sentiment has caused a backfire against all unions. Laws have been added and a sanitizing of unfavorable leaders has been on the rise, some laws are directly enacted to make the day to day dealings of the union more time consuming and it's unfortunate, not all unions are created equal. I would be the first to admit that some higher ups, just like in the Federal government have become displaced from the work force and forgot where they came from, but a lot of that is changing. Unfortunately, a lot of union members are complacent and will not seek out their rights and speak up for better recognition. Just like our own general elections, the civic duty starts on election day.

I sorta feel that they have sanitized the organizations who can help workers, in favor of giving the green light to even bigger organizations who have no stake in the well being of their constituents. I believe that if all were fair, if all laws created because of unions, labor friendly representatives and social activists were adhered to, that maybe a good number of unions would enter the "thing of the past" phase, but unfortunately the laws have been fragmented. While there are some good companies out there, your own included from what you have written, there is a disproportional amount who just don't seem to care at all. It isn't just the large corporations, it's the labor merchants and small contracting firms that get undocumented workers to fill the ranks, it's the tech firms that use unethical means to disqualify perfectly qualified US born and legal immigrants in favor of visa holders. These are some of the reasons that we all lose when there is not a thriving labor movement. They have capitalized on the anti-union sentiment, and all of us have lost in the interim. It's hard for good union and nonunion construction firms to bid on contracts nowadays. The blatant violations of US labor law, with little or no reprisals, are rising and we are in a world of trouble if this is not corrected soon.

I believe that there is a direct correlation between a weakening labor movement and the decision of people to shop at the big box instead of the mom and pop, those two factors allowed them to take hold and thrive, leaving us less rights and less choices. Competition was favorable to the buyer, it told John store owner' that we were important, now with less salary and less options, they just don't care. They have relieved us of the human factor of our shopping experience. We let them. It continues with every aspect of our existence, when they decided to give you less than a pound of coffee, when they lowered the weight of the 'half-gallon' of ice cream and when they started giving us 14 ounces in a pint of orange juice. I often joke about the dozen eggs with only 10 in the carton, and I just learned that the Big Box stores have started selling http://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/7cb84/all_12_packs_of_soda_have_disappeared_from_every/">8-packs of soda cans for the same price of the 12 pack. Again I ask, what choices do we have? Not many.

It is a very sad story to hear that you are not being serviced well by the customer service of your union supplier, I would ask to speak higher up the chain, I have routinely highlighted both union and nonunion merchandisers who use American workers on my website, one recent entry was http://anti-union.blogspot.com/2008/10/found-denim-bibs-made-in-usa.html">Round House, who make denim work bibs and are actually expanding here in the US, another recent find (story is in the sandbox for further editing at my site,) is http://www.americanmystique.com/carhartt-usa-ozark.htm">American Mystique, who has recently dropped Carhartt, because they couldn't be sure that they would get the union made products to sell, that's a real shame, it seems that they may have been having the same difficulties as yourself. If it's clothing made in America, they treat their workers with dignity and there is no union alternative, I wouldn't hesitate to endorse the product.

My message to union firms that aren't servicing their customers, step it up. I also have been waiting for one company to get back to me about creating a denim welding shirt for my fellow construction workers, I'm gonna have to call again. It's a little annoying that they aren't jumping through fire hoops to get a few thousand more customers and I'm getting a little pissed. I certainly am not blaming the workers.

I know I have been going on a tangent, but it's all on topic, I would wish to express my admiration of you explaining the misdeeds of wal-mart. It's unfortunate how many will fail to see the reality that the price we will pay will only level upward as competition gets crushed and the only possible conclusion is that there will only be crappy jobs left, limited valuable American industry and a handful of production jobs which will be filled by the lowest wage earners.

A reinvestment into our country is needed, a reinvestment in educating our children is needed, we are on the frontier of a new tomorrow, it's not too late for the United States to change it's course. All we need is for people like yourself to keep spreading the word, even when the responses aren't what you want to hear, we can't get discouraged, we must be heard and we must learn from everyone.

As I said, thanks a lot for posting, I really like to hear from people who are in business, I worked for a lot of people who went under in the 80's during the big rise of the big box, we failed them then and I feel terrible whenever I travel past one of the locations that is no longer there. I remember the high standard the customers always had, and as a worker they were almost always right, minus a few who either were trying to rob something or completely crazy. I miss always being right in a store.
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Joesunionreview Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-08 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you to everyone...
who responded, I really appreciate that you all took a little time to read it. As with most things I write, it just all comes from the heart, it's just really nice to see some people have knowledge of the topic and not just going with the flow of oblivious talking points out there. It's criminal that organizations exist whose sole purpose is to discredit social movements and whose bread and butter is worker suffering. The anti-union lobbying (US Chamber of Commerce) and union avoidance law firms (Rick Berman) who most likely get money from the likes of McDonalds, Coca-Cola, Wal-Mart, Smithfield Pork, Home Depot and Target among other major players, to spread misinformation around the country and online. They do it on a tax exempt basis in many cases.

These are the companies that feed us poison and supply us with shotty products.

They wouldn't care if we ate dirt sandwiches as long as they are in the black.

Keep talking, keep spreading the word.

Joe
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent post! thank you! nt
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