Hillary accepted & signed the DNC rules barring MI & FL. From a MTP interview

[madfloridian]

Run time: 03:24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmUVr_Qt2Wg   Posted on YouTube: April 06, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: April 07, 2008 By DU Member: madfloridian Views on DU: 18489

 
From the You Tube poster:

Here she goes again.
On Sept. 1 2007, she accepted and signed the DNC rules barring any other states having a primary earlier than the specified date. She did agree upon it before the election and now because she is losing, she wants them counted?
What about your signed pleadge? -
on MI and FL votes.

DNC Chairman Howard Dean
Letter to Democratic Presidential Candidates
August 31, 2007

As the leader of the Democratic Party, I strongly urge you to adhere to the 2008 Delegate Selection Rules...
The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules adopted by the full DNC at its August 2006 meeting clearly provide that only 4 states - Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina - may hold their respective contests prior to February 5, 2008. The findings of Non-Compliance included a 100% loss of pledged and unpledged delegates.


Hillary Clinton Campaign
September 1, 2007

Clinton Campaign
Statement On The
Four State Pledge

We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process. And we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar.
Added: April 06, 2008

[Duke Newcombe]

1. The Rules don't count...

Didn't you get the email?

Duke

[madfloridian]

2. Note how Schumer uses the words "popular vote"....

The Clinton campaign no longer accepts the rules that delegates decide the nominee. The surrogates are all using the words "popular vote" or even worse..."electoral vote."

Reinventing the rules.

[elocs]

3. At the start of the primaries it was my belief that Clinton had accepted the DNC rules.

That was, of course, when she thought she had the nomination in the bag and did not feel threatened by the upstart Obama. In Michigan, Obama was not even on the ballot, so his supporters there were at a distinct disadvantage. But now that Clinton could use those votes and delegates, she wants them to count. How utterly transparent.

[bellasgrams]

6. She is doing exactly what BO said he would do if he won.

The people of FL deserve to have their votes to be counted. He knows it, she knows it. He's waffling now because he knows he could lose his lead. He stopped the people in MI from having a revote. Mr Nice Guy....not

[madfloridian]

7. Shame on you for not telling the truth.

[elocs]

8. The sad thing is, Clinton supporters actually believe that kink of tripe.

I don't recall Clinton protesting the whole long way before the vote in Florida and Michigan that it was not right. Both Florida and Michigan learned that choices actually do have consequences. If there is somebody to blame, then it is the representatives there who thought they could flaunt the rules with impunity. The residents there do not have to look any farther. Obama has been totally consistent and has not waffled at all about the Florida and Michigan primaries.

Does anybody actually believe that if there was a revote now that Obama would do worse than the original vote, especially since he was not on the ballot in Michigan?

[green917]

10. HORSEHOCKEY!

To think that Sen. Obama's campaign had anything to do with the decision by the Michigan Legislature to not undertake a new primary (which would have cost millions of dollars that neither candidate was willing to pay) is completely preposterous! Florida is somewhat different because it was the Republican majority there that caused them to break the rules. What it comes down to though is the fact that BOTH Sens. Clinton and Obama agreed that the votes in these 2 states would not count before the voters even went to the polls. The ONLY reason Sen. Clinton has changed her tune is because she is losing. If things were going the other way and she were in the lead, I'd be willing to bet lots of money that she wouldn't give a rats ass about the voters of Michigan or Florida just like she came out and said that she didn't give a rat's ass about the caucus voters in states like my own (MN).

[GOTV]

44. From what I heard FL is really not all that much different.

From other discussions here it was pointed out that the rules allowed a state to move it's primary forward as long as the Dems in that state made a good faith effort to prevent it. In FL though the Dems voted along with the GOP in overwhelming numbers to thwart the DNC rules.

That's how they ended up in the same boat as Michigan.

[youngharry]

11. she is doing exactly

she will not win the nomination even with the Florida votes. This is all bullshit from every level.. NICE PROPOGANDA THOUGH!

[BearSquirrel2]

17. Bull ...

Look at what Obama has done in every state he campaigned. Obama had everything to gain in terms of legitimacy by having new elections in these states. It was the Hillary people who moved the Michigan election up and the Hillary people who squashed a revote precisely because Hillary would lose her new big fake issue if the issue was resolved.

[Hamlette]

35. The voters of Florida do not deserve to have their votes counted.

Every elected democrat in florida voted for the early primary.

Florida gambled and lost.

Florida and Michigan thought the election would be OVER by super Tuesday and they wanted a say.

I have NEVER had a say in presidential politics. The candidate was always picked LONG before my state's caucus. And my state is too red for my vote to count in the GE.

You candidate went back on her word.

That might be okay with you but IMHO, its why she's losing. She's not honest.

Get real.

[durrrty libby]

56. " Voters don't deserve to have their votes counted"? That's what bush

said in 2000. This country is full of shit idiots. Nothing new there

[robinlynne]

36. hen the people of FLorida should have gotten rid of their party leaders who decided

to not let their votes count.

[butterfly77]

38. Excuses,Excuses..

HILLARY IS A BIG DAMN LIAR!

[jjr5]

40. No - . . .

The people of FL do not deserve to have their votes be counted. It's not a matter of who benefits from another primary, it's the principle of running more primaries after an agreement was reached last summer. The leaders in FL and MI knew that they were breaking the rules, yet, they went ahead and moved their primaries up anyway. I'm actually not quite sure why these state leaders decided to do that, I thought it was inane at the time. Everyone - EVERYONE agreed to this outcome. Only one question still stands: Why has this become an issue now, as opposed to before, for every decision-maker involved?

[DrDan]

67. so - let me see if I understand

the leaders voted . . . and the voters got screwed . . . and you are ok with that.

Why not penalize the leaders?

This was such a travesty. The the D's will pay the price in Florida. Not sure about MI - but I live in Florida - and I know for a fact that there are a lot of upset voters.

[jjr5]

74. I know, but why wasn't this a problem before?

Hillary Clinton signed off on an agreement to disenfranchise the voters in those two states. Its not right that they aren't voting in the primaries, but the state representatives violated DNC rules. If any other state had also decided to move their primaries up, then what would happen? I'm sure that there will be a fair conclusion to this debacle, but it was agreed that because their primaries were wrongly moved forward, that they would not get a primary.

As a Florida resident, how did you feel in the beginning when your leaders decided to push up the primaries and therefore disenfranchise your vote in the primary? Just curious.

[DrDan]

76. my thought at the time was that the dates of the primaries should

be the responsibility of the states. What difference should it make to anyone when a state holds their primary.

I think it was a power play on both sides - the DNC wanting total control - and the state wanting to set the dates themselves.

[swishyfeet]

79. There are very good reasons why the states don't decide

Yes, we all want to make a difference, but to have the 4th and 8th largest states by population jump ahead means that all the candidates need to have a huge pile of cash on hand to play the game.

Those with financial clout have a big advantage in a state like Florida, so let Iowa and New Hampshire have their day. Retail politics is a lot more interesting than simply buying 10 million dollars worth of ads, and everyone gets a shot in the beginning.

It takes a lot of $$ to stay in the game just through Super Duper Tuesday as is.

[DrDan]

87. the candidates have to face Florida eventually

but I am certainly willing to concede to a schedule. My complaint is that the rule should not threaten the voters voice. Let the party withhold funding, punish the leaders, or some other "punishment". Taking away the rights of the voters should never be allowed as a consequence of an action beyond the control of the voters.

Equal voting rights is a foundation of our party. And that should not be tampered with - ever.

[jjr5]

84. Understandable,

But there is a problem now, and people signed a contract before. If this had been disputed before they signed the contract and agreed, FL and MI could have rightfully challenged the ways of DNC leaders. However, they thought that the contract was acceptable enough to go ahead with their primaries anyway and signed. In my opinion, people are going back on their word, possibly for their own benefit. If I were a Florida or Michigan resident, I would be working hard to criticize my Democratic state leaders for doing what they did to voters and I would not blame the DNC, because I think that they are trying to uphold integrity in the party. What the outcome will be, I don't know. However, I'm still scratching my head about why the Dem. leaders in Michigan and Florida went ahead and historically moved up their primaries.

[DrDan]

86. I partially agree with you

however - I do not see how the DNC, even if through a committee, can allow a rule that would jeopardize the votes of party members.

That is where I find fault Dean and the DNC. Have the rule - but do not put votes in jeopardy. Withhold funding. Punish state leaders. But do not take away voting rights.

I do not see how the DNC can be accused of have any integrity if members of the party are stripped of votes. I think Dean know this and is working toward a quick solution. I have my doubts as to whether either Clinton or Obama have the voters in mind - only their personal campaigns.

[jjr5]

94. Point taken,

I do hope they can find a resolution that doesn't disenfranchise voters, but admittedly, this whole thing is a debacle. I do agree with your last point especially though - oh politics! :argh:

[gal]

98. There are 48 other states....

Florida and Michigan aren't the only states the DNC has to contend with. Sorry if you seem to forget that. They also have to satisfy the voters in the other 48 states as well, and they want all states to play by the same rules. If you don't like what your legislators did then vote them out of office.
The rest of the country should not be treated any differently because your legislators want to act like spoiled little brats.

[pocoloco]

51. Are you brain dead?? First you have to have a fair election!!

Then you count the votes!!

Not rocket science

[JDPriestly]

66. 48 other states played by the rules and waited their turns.

What made Florida and Michigan think they didn't have to play by the rules?

The Democratic Party is a private organization. It is entitled to establish its own rules. Members of the Democratic Party, just like members of other organizations, whether churches or clubs or charitable organizations, no matter, have to follow the rules of the organization.

Florida and Michigan cheated. You can't break the rules in kindergarten, and you can't break the rules in political parties. Do people pay library fines in Florida and Michigan? Do they obey the rules of traffic? Playing by the rules is tough, but there has to be some organization, some guidelines.

We played by the rules here in California. It meant that, for the most part, the candidates just showed up in the wealthiest areas of our state, wined and dined with the richest Democrats and ignored the rest of us who do the grunt work. But, hey, we are not Iowa or Nevada or New Hampshire or South Carolina. Those are the rules. If Michigan and Florida are seated, maybe California will decide to jump ahead next time -- or Ohio -- or Oregon.

Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated at the convention until after the new presidential nominee is chosen. To seat them earlier would set a dangerous precedent for the future. It is too bad since Florida and Michigan are important states, but the parties in those states knew the rules when they decided unilaterally to break them. No excuses. No vote.

[DrDan]

89. when you don't follow the rules, then you face the music.

In this case, the state leaders did not follow the rules, but the voters were screwed.

If your governor breaks a traffic law, who gets the ticket? The gov or the residents?

Here - it was not the voters that took any action that broke a rule.

The rule should have included a "punishment" aimed at those who held the responsibility for action - withhold their funding, deny them national party positions. But do not screw the voter.

[JDPriestly]

90. I bet a lot of voters did not participate because they were told

that the votes would not count. I remember hearing from Michigan supporters of candidates other than Hillary on Thom Hartmann and on Randi Rhodes. Those voters were basically disenfranchised. They could only vote undecided. Sorry, but the voters have only their state party organizations to blame. The state party organizations voided the votes of the rank and file in Michigan and Florida by not playing by the rules.

[DrDan]

91. well guess what - I am from Florida . . . and I found the time to vote

and you know what else . . . I do find fault with the DNC . . . both sides were power-grabbing and cared nothing about the voters.

[JDPriestly]

95. In what way did the DNC grab power?

It is a waste of precious financial resources and the energy of the candidates to hold earlier primaries in more than three or four states. As I have written, we in California would like to have our primary precede those in other states. Every state would like to go first. It is up to the DNC to decide who goes first. Florida took it upon itself to precede other states. Florida grabbed power that it was not entitled to. The DNC exercised the power that the majority of states invested in it. Florida is totally wrong here.

[ziyue]

92. nature of the system

If the driver of the car had drugs, and all of its passengers are aware, then everybody will get in trouble. Even if the passengers aren't using. Any team sport, one member cheats, the whole team pays for it. Voting in a primary is not based on a single individual, it's based on a group of people. The votes only have an effect through the group agreement over who should the delegates vote for. Yes, voting is a right that every individual should have, just like all 5 players in a basketball game have the right and responsibility to play the game. But when the team is playing as a single entity, and the state is voting as a single entity, the entire team or all of the voters share the responsibilities toward the preset rules as an entity. That is the nature of our voting system. That's the nature of the political system in the US. Before we start arguing if this system is or should be a true democracy, you have to consider the nature of a united STATES. That's what this country is built on top of, along with what the Constitution says, the need to preserve the individuality of each state. In a real democracy, there is shouldn't be states or districts when it comes to voting, because every voice should be equal, but that's not this country.
If every voter should be heard, then why didn't every voter make their voice be heard when the state legislature voted on this? There were plenty of time between the legislature vote and the primary for all of the Democrat voters to unite and make their voice be heard by the people in control. If that was the case, then I believe exceptions would've been made. You can't fault the people or the party if the Republican majority forced this. But if you don't resist and let your voice be heard at that time, then why now? The actions are not consistent here.
"Can I take this parking spot?"
shrug
"Ok, I am going to take this parking spot."
shrug
"Hey, you took my parking spot!"

[DrDan]

93. why the civics lesson?

The issue is clear - and Dean understands the issue. That is why he is working hard to bring about a solution that will seat all delegates.

Take the high road - plead your integrity, ethics, moral high ground, but you will not be convincing the voters in Fl that they are not getting screwed - unless Dean resolves this. So go ahead and write-off Florida - you seem to have no problem with that. Funny how so many on this site profess to be 100% backers of the philosophies of the party - until it potentially impacts their candidate. Then to hell with their conscience. Win at any cost - throw out principles.

btw - I am not a Hillary supporter.

[Yurovsky]

78. As a Florida resident, I call BS ...

everyone knew this was not a sanctioned primary. Sure, the property tax amendment was on the ballot, but I would venture to guess that rich republicans were much more likely to come out and vote themselves a tax cut than others who either rent or own property low enough in assessed value to avoid property tax.

Hold a REAL primary in Florida, and who do you think wins now? I'm not sure, but it would be close, which would mean the delegates would probably be split close to 50/50. Only the die-hard Clintonites are comfortable with disregarding the rules and trying to steal delegates that are n ot rightly theirs.

Of course, none of this will matter after PA puts Hillary's candidacy on life support, and NC pulls the plug.

[aaroh]

4. Shame on You Hillary nt

[doublethink]

5. Schumer .... ends the video with the words .......

"now let me say this ..."

Thanks for cutting it off there, don't think I cared to hear his spin on it. There is nothing else to say. Anyone saying anything else on this subject is being disingenuous, and they know it.

K&R. Thanks for posting this. Peace.

[democracy1st]

9. K & R

thanks

[flor de jasmim]

12. Thanks - to Tim R., as well, for being crystal clear on this.

[guruoo]

13. Hillary's duty is to try, Obama's duty is to prevent ...

this rule from being overturned.

[AtomicKitten]

14. Oh for crissakes. When is this horseshit going to end?

K&R

[Bentcorner]

15. Does it really matter? Neither candidate can win without the superdelegates.

This isn't going to be decided by pledged delegates.

[indimuse]

16. where's the rest of the clip...slick?

doesn't matter...the del's should be seated...as dem's we should seat them.

[40ozDonkey]

20. They will be seated, just not to Hillary's advantage.

As Dem's we should pay attention to our party rules, so we can show the general electorate that they're not voting for petulant children.

As Florida Democrats we should've worked with the party to find a resolution instead of trying to play chicken with the rulebook and losing, then blaming everybody else.

But then, those two points show personal responsibility, and we can't have that. Cause and effect is for the other peon 48 states, we're Hill country, so we get special treatment.

[madfloridian]

39. Slick?

To whom are you directing that? You can go to the link for the clip and ask the person who uploaded it.

[indimuse]

41. slick....

ok...

[GOTV]

46. As Dems we should care about clean elections....

... we should seat them as long as we can trust they represent the will of the voters.

We do not know that about this group of delegates from FL and MI. Have a real election, and then lets seat THOSE delegates.

[durrrty libby]

18. Still trying your damnedest to disenfranchise voters, eh?

How pathetic that so-called democrats would put in so much time to accomplish such a "noble cause"

[40ozDonkey]

19. So when presidential elections go on for 2 years b/c every state moved up their primary...

...and they knew nobody would punish them, we'll know who's to blame.

The votes will be counted, just not in a way that's advantageous to Hillary. That's all you care about. The true motivations of the Hillary supporters are obvious.

[durrrty libby]

24. There is NO acceptable excuse.

:dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :boring: :spank: :nuke: :shrug: :eyes: :crazy:


BTW if your cult leader gets the nom while disenfranchising voters,
he will be considered illegitimate by millions in the world

Cultists are short-sighted, silly, sad and amazingly dumb and dangerous

Try this on for size

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZydhWoEHCdM

[habitual]

32. truly sad

to see such nonsense is the only thing you have to argue with.

obama = cult leader; hillary = strong leader

considered illegitimate around the WORLD by millions -- even tho he will win by every measure necessary, whereas the only way Clinton can is by underhanded tactics that will appear to defy the will of the overall electorate

and your final attack "short-sighted, silly, sad and amazingly dumb and dangerous" -- well let's just say this is why we are wanting an end to this sooner rather than later, cuz dems are using this kinda language to beat down other dems so their candidate can win.

course if i look at ANY events recently, looks like you shouldn't be throwing stones too much.

[40ozDonkey]

33. Floridians aren't interested in being dupes for your candidate.

When they realized Hillary signed off on Florida's punishment they'll wonder who they're supposed to be mad at.

If Florida Hillary supporters are still catching feelings over nothing in the fall, let them. Ballot box blackmail is the winning theme of Hillary partisans alone, not Florida Democrats.

[dbmk]

42. In my part of the world...

..I have only heard people laugh - or shake their head in disbelief - at Hillarys antics. Especially the part about trying to make states count where the voting was ruled noncounting. It just baffles people that anyone would try something so blatantly selfserving in the name of democracy. Especially in a country that has had its problems in that regard lately.

If you honestly think that a big majority can't understand the concept of rules and the ridiculous concept of counting a primary where your opponent was not on the ballot because of the same rules, then you need a reality check.

Counting Michigan as is, would put the DNC in a category normally only filled with dubious regimes/dictators.

[FatDave]

77. You left out a key point

That she only started trying to get MI and FL to count after she won those undeniably flawed elections. That's disingenuous to beat all hell, and the American people (for the most part) are smart enough to see it for what it is.

[elmerdem]

45. Cultists are short-sighted, silly, sad and amazingly dumb and dangerous

that would be pointing at yourself given the info. that was laid out right in front of you during that segment. Short sighted is changing your mind on something you've already agreed to & then throwing a tantrum. POT MEET KETTLE, oh the irony!

The state governments will have caused voters to be disenfranchised, not Obama. I didn't know that dems drank the kool-aid, jiminey christmas.

[RazBerryBeret]

62. DL, I'm curious,

what is your solution for the voters in MI and FL who didn't vote, because they were told the votes wouldn't be counted? They didn't even go to the polls because they were told by everyone that it wouldn't count...do they get a voice?

[GOTV]

64. Let me guess the answer: "THey should have voted they have no one ot blame but themselves"

It's a ridiculous argument to make but your question is the fly in the ointment of their phony concern for voter disenfranchisement. They pretend not to understand that the voters have already been disenfranchised and that seating the false delegates doesn't change that.

[Zachstar]

52. Hit the nail on the head!!

There MUST be punishments or in 2012 states moving their primaries to 2010 will be the least of our worries as other rules get tossed out the window.

The bad (Not reasonable) Clinton supporters, once they realized Clinton was not going to win by Super Tuesday starting bringing this up over and over. And over and over we said it was unfair to both candidates and there needs to be a 50/50 or a revote. They continued to crap on us and demand tainted results included.

WE Called for a revote.

[DrDan]

88. punishements? ok - but not stripping the voters of their voice

punish the state party leadrs in other ways - withhold funding, etc. But - the party charter states equal voting rights for ALL! It goes on to state that no rules will be adopted that put the basic foundations at risk.

The rule should never have put the voters at risk - because of actions beyond the voters control.

[GOTV]

48. What? By honoring only legitimate elections? This is how you empower voters.

We should always reject sham elections.

[D23MIURG23]

71. I can tell you all of us Michiganians appreciate the efforts being made to have

our votes for Comrade Hillary counted. We feel a deep sense of national pride knowing that we were chosen to vote for her.

:sarcasm:

[mod mom]

21. Flip Flopper or opportunist-you make the call.

[kevinmc]

22. She signed it in Vanishing Ink ….so she is in the clear n/t

[crankychatter]

23. crisp and accurate once again Mad, thanks

This vid should stay on top until August if that's how they want to play it.

Note the one Clinton person says "it doesn't matter."

I don't believe that her supporters believe this crap... they've made a bad candidate choice but that doesn't mean they're idiots.

They just don't care... and there really is no reason to talk to them about it... we're pissing in the wind.

As long as the voters get it, and most do, that's all that matters.

[happygoluckytoyou]

25. OH!!! YOU MEAN THAT SIGNING STATEMENT???

Sadly, I was under sniper fire when I signed this document and didn't have a chance to read all of the large words. My aide-de-camp was busy saving the life of a woman in the hospital, and was also under heavy attack.

[JayFredMuggs]

26. AND..........I hadn't gottem much sleep !!!

They called me at 3 AM to sign that stupid agreement!

[losthills]

27. All votes must be counted

and every citizen must be allowed to vote.

It doesn't matter who signed what, who said what or what kind of Mickey Mouse rules Howard Dean makes up.

Do you want to live in a Democracy, or don't you?

[lakeguy]

28. a democracy with only one person on the ballot? nt

[remember2000forever]

29. Large Turnout In Florida

This was due to a Property Tax Reform which was on the ballot, not Ms. Clinton.

[DrDan]

69. poop - that was a significant issue - but the voters I know and have spoken with also

wanted to vote for the D candidate.

[durrrty libby]

31. If you are talking about Michigan, that is a lie. Kucinich was on the

ballot and others chose to take their names off.

That was their choice. Why act so stupid?

[D23MIURG23]

65. If we are disinfranchised by having our votes disregarded

then we are also disenfranchised by being limited to HRC, Kucinich, Gravel, and uncommitted. The fact that Uncommitted pulled 40% of the vote should tell you something.

Stop trying to have it both ways.

[durrrty libby]

72. Guess your comprehension is in the bottom percentile

What part of chose to take name OFF the ballot don't you understand?

Many are just too stupid to vote.

[D23MIURG23]

73. HRC left her name on the ballot on the grounds that it wouldn't count anyway.

where is the disenfranchisement again?

You must be one of those uneducated voters they say are flocking to HRC. You show the requisite level of intellectual principle.

[Zachstar]

53. Hmm sounds like Iraq in the late 90's

Just one name but everyones voice must be heard!!!111!!!11

It was almost funny how Clinton supporters are empowering the crap done by FL and Mi to serve their Clinton agenda. It has completely failed so now their desperation is quickly turning sad.

[TomBall Democrat]

43. Primaries are not elections

check out the election codes for primaries.

we vote for delegates, not candidates.

You do want to educate yourself before you pop off, don't you?

[losthills]

80. Don't tell me to educate myself, Ace.

If you don't know how to have a reasonable discussion, take a flying fuck.

[elmerdem]

47. even the ones

that would've been cast for Obama if he were on the ballot?

[losthills]

81. Don't assume that I'm a Clinton supporter.

I don't care which one of them wins the nomination.

I care about fair elections in my country.

[GOTV]

49. In a democracy you have real elections - you don't decide after the fact if they'll count....

Every citizen must be allowed to vote in a fair honest above board election - not the shams they had in FL and MI.

[DrDan]

68. you are absolutely correct!!!!!!

The charter of the party clearly states that.

I goes on to state that there can be no rules made violating the founding principles of the party - that being one.

[eyepaddle]

70. What a complete load of horseshit

I've pretty much stayed away from DU until the primary warfare cools off, but this kind of cranial/anal confluence is realllllyy starting to wear thin.

"every citizen must be allowed to vote" really, since when? Does that include non-registered citizens?

It does matter who signed what. I tell you what, I'd like to have a Democracy where laws and contracts mean stuff--otherwise you're just left with a bunch of dictatorial aftter-the-fact justifications. Just because you vote for the dictator doesn't make it democratic.

[losthills]

82. More bullshit from the bullshit cult...

[DuaneBidoux]

100. A democracy in the Democratic party is WITHIN the Democratic party

And it was decided by the candidates. You can spin this anyway you wish but she looks like sludge doing this. The voters of Michigan and Florida will have their votes, in November, but if those states decided to move their own election to November 1st, I guarantee those votes would not count for the presidency. And no it is no difference--democracy DOES NOT mean no rules.

[DuaneBidoux]

101. Imagine if a couple of states moved the Presidential election to Oct. 30th.

You want to bet that those votes "would not count"? There has to be rules in a working democracy and when they aren't followed it isn't a democracy it's mob rule.

[NorthCarolina]

30. Hillary also running on the "Change" theme

she simply "Changed" her mind!

[Zachstar]

54. Haha!! Good point!!

So whats to tell us she wont "Change" her mind while in the white house?

Stay in the war for republican support perhaps?
Change her mind on supporting bills to undo shit done by Bush?
Change her mind on Iran?
Change her mind of trade agreements? because when it comes down to it Clinton knows China has our monies I guess.

The republicans will have a field day if she gets the nomination.

[fascisthunter]

34. Doh... "There It Is"

[butterfly77]

37. Yeah Shumer, let you tell us another damn lie like your candidate...

[elmerdem]

50. I'll sum up Shumer in one word.

MUKASEY!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/washington/07mukasey.html

The photo in this article says it all. I feel for Feingold being in between these two talking of throwing DOJ under the bus.

[ooglymoogly]

55. Shumer, Billery and Hill

a trio of lyrical shills

Hillery asks us to swallow a number of pills...

While Billery goes out with a number of parties

and Shumer's head is filled with deceitful smarties


But....

None shall surpass the thrills
of Hillery and Billery of Billery, Shumer and Hill.

(not to forget Lieberman and Feinstein and a host of others but what rhymes with Blubberman or Feinstein) The only thing I could think of was "DINO".

[lenegal]

57. Augh

I really wish this infighting would really stop.

We are in a heap of trouble out there.

The economy, war, job losses, need I say more???

BOTTOM LINE, WE NEED A DEM IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

This country is in serious shit.

[nvme]

58. The way it is.

Had protests been lodged by any of the candidates prior to the start of the contests, the disenfranchisement argument would be a valid point. By signing and agreeing to the no-campaigning pledge all candidates affirmed the importance of following the party rules and regulations. (I am only concerned about Florida's situation).
Florida's legislature is made up of a republican majority and a Republican Governor. On the surface, It is obvious that the deck was stacked against the Democrats. When one looks at the vote and the other factors involved, a less clear picture emerges. To begin with most of the democratic establishment in Florida has history and supports Hillary Clinton. The Democrats had to support the initiative because there was a property tax poisoned pill attached to the Jan 29 voting day bill. The Dem's didn't think the DNC would balk over the primary date being moved. In fact, during the vote Steve Geller ( strong Clinton supporter) was very tongue and cheek when it came to his vote for this initiative. Not one democrat stood up and said hey this is not a good idea. Everyone involved (with the exception of the Republicans) showed an extreme lack of foresight with the seriousness of the situation. The Democrats wrongly assumed the DNC would match the RNC and offer to recognize half the delegates.

The candidates themselves were seeking to curry favor with the DNC. That is why they went with the pledge. When all parties agree and sign it is a binding agreement. No contingency agreements were placed in their pledges. It was a calculation on both Obama and Clinton's part to sign the pledge. Clinton began crying foul after the Feb 5 disaster. Obama accepted the results of Florida the beauty contest.

If anyone should be penalize for disenfranchisement it should be the Florida Legislators. They should be held accountable to the voters. They should be voted out office for signing on to this travesty. They are the ones who decided to vote themselves into irrelevancy within their own respective parties. They alone carry this burden. 48 other states and legislatures followed rules and guidelines set forth by the parties. The DNC does not like to create the controversy in what should be a banner election cycle. The renegades in this instance are the Republicans and the Dem's of Florida. The Republican manage again to win because they have succeeded in dividing the Democratic party of Florida. Michigan is just a bonus. By attaching a property tax and homestead exemption to the election bill they had both the wedge issue and the tax relief inserted so that no one could stand against it. For Dem's its lose lose. For republicans losing half their delegates is small sacrifice in light of the potential gain caused by a divided Democratic electorate.

So Obamites and Hill-bots keep this shit up and we will sign "Hail to the Chief" to Mc Caine. The other choice is to say "NOT THIS TIME!" Forgive either for side all that we have said to each other. and Humbly kick republican ass come november. We need to unite for our congressional seats. we have three Re-pub reps in miami that need to have their seat taken away. the resources wont be there if we keep up our bickering so grow up.

[Crunchy Frog]

59. So what is it with Hillary wanting to disenfranchise all those voters?

The record shows that she clearly went along with it.

[L0oniX]

60. Insert foot A in mouth B ...Hillarat ...f*cking hypocrite liar.

:eyes:

[Kurovski]

61. I think they knew they were going to need this "crisis" if they were ever going to "win".

Just a guess.

[trickyguy]

63. Is this any surprise? The Clinton campaign will do anything they want

just to get that win-win situation in FL and MI. More deceipt and shuffling in this shell game
they are playing with the DNC. Now that Penn is gone, what will they try to pull next?:evilfrown:

[uberblonde]

75. Obama fans live in Bizarro World!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking

Where the facts are upside down and anything goes if St. Obama says so:

By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007

TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.

Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences."

[madfloridian]

96. That's being a little picky. Look what Hillary did.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1793

She came here to declare victory. Bill Clinton was all over Florida and no one said a word. Obama crossed the street to talk to media, not realizing it violated the pledge. He apologized.

Hillary came to FL to declare victory where there was none.

[RBInMaine]

83. CLASSIC SLICK HILLARY !!

Does this surprise anybody? She is a win at all costs candidate, even if it means LYING now about
Michigan and Florida. Folks, MI and FL WILL have delegations in Denver. But they will be FAIRLY apportioned given that they violated the rules in the beginning. The Clintons AGREED to the rules and as god is my witness they are not now going to play politics with this, reneg, and try to have it THEIR way like you get at BurgerKing.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jefferson_dem]

97. Views on DU: 12411!

Dayum! That's some serious DU viewing.

Let's do it some more. :kick:

[mark099]

99. How can anyone take HC seriously anymore?

The only thing sillier than Hillary's recurring exploits (each of which just makes her even more unelectable) is the comical attempt by some people to nullify a legal contract because they didn't like what resulted.

True, it's very uncool that Florida's and Michigan's voters were abused this way, but their beef is with the state officials who bullheadedly went ahead with their doomed plan, even after being warned that the votes would be invalid. Any court in the land would laugh at an effort to have that contract rescinded. (Some, however, might accept a zillion-dollar lawsuit against those guys, and I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen.)

Let's face it, gang, this argument is nothing more than sour grapes from the once-smug folks who thought Hillary had it nailed from the start. History will not be kind to her for pursuing this. The very title of this thread is an insult to maturity and logic.

It'd be great to have a woman president. It'd be even better to have one we could trust.