TYT: Obama was for civil liberties before he was against them

[jgraz]

Run time: 06:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0xsDKi94OE   Posted on YouTube: June 27, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: June 28, 2008 By DU Member: jgraz Views on DU: 2185

 
Well, Cenk didn't exactly say that, but it's certainly the message that the Repugs are going to push. Obama's flip-flop on FISA is looking more and more like a colossal political mistake, and the taunting by Sam Brownback is just the first salvo in the Repugs' plan to paint Obama as Kerry 2.0.

BTW, if you're interested, here's the text of the speech Obama gave on FISA back in August of 2007:

This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.

That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.

This Administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not. There are no short-cuts to protecting America, and that is why the fifth part of my strategy is doing the hard and patient work to secure a more resilient homeland.

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/the_war_we_need_to_win.php

Pretty good speech. Too bad he couldn't stick to it. :(

As Cenk says, "It's a classic mistake. ... You now have no grounds to attack them, you can't play any offense, and they have grounds to attack you for your original position, and then your flip-flop AND for being so weak."

It's a terrible move. Here's hoping Obama learns from this error.

[ihavenobias]

1. I'm sure some people will be pissed at Cenk for this, but that's ridiculous...

Why?

Because it's good to have dissent *within* the party.

I reject the idea that we're screwing ourselves if we criticize the Dems, and yes, that includes Obama. If we keep quiet and pretend everything is ok in spite of evidence to the contrary, we are no better than the 25% or so that continue to insist that Bush is a good president.

Look, I am not by any means suggesting that anyone vote Republican or that Democrats are worse on an issue by issue basis. In fact I think both suggestions are absurd.

But I AM saying that we need to hold our representatives accountable, and that while we work to elect a Dem president and to create huge Dem majorities in the House and Senate, we need to be ready to primary the anti-progressive Dems to death:

http://www.actblue.com/

PS---If you haven't alrady seen it, please check out this resource for combating stupid Obama smears. It contains lots of great videos, articles and commentary, and even has some information on McCain: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6410712

[jgraz]

2. I'll stop criticizing them when they learn the basic lesson that weakness does not win elections.

Even someone as smart as Obama is susceptible to this moronic tactic. It's been a loser for 30 years and the Democrats still haven't figured it out.

[Lorien]

8. The only saying still rings true:

"Given a choice between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like one, the people will vote for the Republican every time". I'm called an Obama basher and it's presumed that I'll vote for McCain every time I state this (no on both accounts, and it shouldn't need to be said). I want a strong candidate, and I'll call Obama out when he behaves like a weak Bush appeaser. He shouldn't be this stupid. Is it the DNC or DLC insisting that he take these RW positions? Why is McCain pandering to his lunatic base while Obama is pandering to McCain's lunatic base?? The people are fed up with the Neo-cons and they want REAL CHANGE. More of the same won't cut it. If he decides to stick with this tactic then many Dems and independents will stay home, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory once again.

[OhioChick]

12. Agreed. n/t

[youngharry]

26. Pissed at Cenk

Cenk,

Are you looking deep enough at Obama's vote on FISA? Obama is a Constitutional Law Professor. While he knows that the current version of the FISA Act gives civil immunity to the telecoms, it does NOT give criminal immunity to them. The 40 groups that are currently suing the telecoms in Civil Court can continue their lawsuits in Criminal Court.

MOREOVER, If Obama had voted against the FISA Bill and we had another false-flag attack between now and the election, he would have been accused of being WEAK on the defense of this country from terrorists and would be easily defeated by the fear factor the right-wing would throw against him and the American people.

Think deeper.

Obama is.

[szatmar666]

27. right on!

Except I think it does give them immunity against civil law suits and all pending lawsuits will be thrown out of court as a consequence of this. It says civil lawsuits will be referred to the FISA court and if telecoms can present a letter from the Pres that it's national security they get off the hook. I might have it wrong, I'll double check but that's irrelevant. The current FISA bill restores the 4th amendment, not erases it! Bush had it his way since Aug of 2007 and wiretapped americans without a paper trail and hence no possibility of any future scrutiny, including current law suits: the evidence is not there to link the wiretaps to the WH because no FISA warrants were issued since last year. That has ended with the latest FISA bill. the immunity part was a deal they had to strike to have this signed into law and Congress can rescind it in the future if they deem it necessary. At least we have a paper trail and a record of what's being done for future legal actions.

[raystorm7]

3. What did Cenk just do? Proved his argument with known facts. Agree 100%

[arendt]

4. Cenk nails it so much better than I did. That's why he's on TV and I'm on DU.

Not only is this move anti-Constitutional, it is politically stupid. And to most DUers, politically stupid is the bigger sin. Saint Obama, my ass. Oh so above it all Obama, my ass.

And thanks to Cenk. Now this whole "left in the primaries, right in the GE" triangulation strategy is exposed for the flip-floping that it is.

arendt

[comradebillyboy]

6. agree 100%

nt

[humbled_opinion]

5. Whats Next?

When he comes back from Iraq are we going to hear praise and glory about how well the surge is working and how it will be ashame to let all this good progress go by removing the troops.... Is that whats next? You'd think the Democrats would learn something from the Mistakes of Richard Nixon... LOL....

[CherylK]

7. Bump!

[bjobotts]

9. Do what's right , not what's politically correct and you win everytime.

[bjobotts]

10. But voting for this FISA wasn't even politically correct. Dem leaders pressured him into it

[bjobotts]

11. And they have history of doing the wrong thing every single time.

[Hydra]

13. Exactly what I said when he did this

Who does he think he's winning over by selling out?

[ryanmuegge]

14. He's going to be nailed to the wall by the RNC and the corporate press for this.

I have no confidence in somebody who would do something this politically stupid. This isn't somebody who is playing to win.

It was good to hear somebody else say what "centrists" and "moderate" actually means in post-Reagan political lingo.

[ghostsofgiants]

15. With ffriends like these, who the fuck needs CoIntelPro?

[lame54]

20. "The purpose of this new counter-intelligence endeavor...

is to expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit or other-

-wise neutralize"

[lame54]

21. I made that an OP in GD...

that song rocks

[ghostsofgiants]

22. Propagandhi kick a whole lot of ass.

:D

[DutchLiberal]

16. Democrats never seem to learn. It's like they love to lose...

DU'ers who have been critical about Obama's caving in on FISA, have been harassed by other members for weakening the Democratic candidate and for making his chances of winning slimmer. But isn't the exact opposite true? Obama himself has weakened his chance of winning, *because* he caved in?

[jgraz]

17. Maybe they think the Repugs will just neglect to bring it up

Cuz they're such a bunch of nice guys. :eyes:

Remember the last cave-in on the war funding? The next day the Repugs were on the floor of the House talking about how the Democrats were responsible for us "losing" in Iraq.

This is going to hurt Obama. Hopefully it will only hurt him enough to teach him a tough lesson, and not enough to cost us the election.

[ForeignSpectator]

18. "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory again"...

:banghead:

If Democrats for once took a principled stand on things...who knows, the polls might actually reward this, too. Instead they always feel they need to cater to the knuckle-dragging conservatives.

And of all the people, Obama. That's plain disappointing. For once, just for once, I would like to witness that the right is starved and not courted like crazy all the time, in the US as well as my country.

[depakid]

29. I doubt that was a conincidence that the new Dem Congress' poll numbers dived below even Bush's

once they started collaborating with the far right again.

It's as if these folks never learn-

[fascisthunter]

19. yup...

damnit


:argh:

[desktop]

23. But I thought you guys said Hillary was the one to say or do anything to get elected

Obama started proving right after he won the nomination that he was not the most liberal candidate in this election. From health care, to social security, to the speed of getting us out of Iraq, and now to FISA. The Democratic party took a step back when they nominated Obama over Hillary. What's next for Obama? Expand the war in Afghanistan? Well he he is already talking about doing that.

[ihavenobias]

24. I would take this post a lot more seriously if it wasn't your first

Something smells fishy here.

[szatmar666]

25. None of the idiots who criticize Obama know jack shit about what's happening

Since August of 2007 the FISA court haven't issued 1 single warrant because they operate under an obscure law Congress voted for last year under the threat of imminent terror attack on the Capitol. Bush is a terrorist and he rules like one. Under these circumstances the only choice dems had was to say no to further extra judicial wiretapping in exchange for no civil suits against phone companies. Now, all of you dummies who have your panties in a wad about Obama's stance on FISA have to understand that as easily as this immunity was granted it can be revoked by Congress. What cannot be revoked are the consequences of another 911. Our country is basically hijacked and Congress is blackmailed by a crime syndicate. Deal with it, and 4 chrissake, learn how to secure your communication and force the gov out of the business of mass surveillance, instead of whyning about politicians. Use Linux, turn on email encryption and use encryption with Skype and use TOR.

https://www.torproject.org/
http://gizmo5.com/
http://www.skype.com/
http://www.itsecurity.com/features/ubuntu-secure-install-resource/

[Pastiche423]

28. No, it sounds like YOU know jack shit bout what's happening

"Use Linux, turn on email encryption and use encryption with Skype and use TOR."

Good god you're naivte is abundantly clear.

[szatmar666]

30. I admit to half of that

but to my defense, none of the discussions before my post mentioned this argument as far as I know, pls send me du links if I am wrong... and the answer is hardly trivial. Also I am at least man enough to change my opinion in light of new information. About Linux: you think that turning on encryption and urging that people do that is useless?! if yes, 1) you imply that the work of my fellow programmers is useless, which I detest as a position because it's obvious that it comes from ignorance. 2) I never said that using encrypted VOIP and email as well as Linux is going to protect you personally. What I said was that it's a good way to throw a monkey wrench into indiscriminate mass surveillance if enough people do it. that's why I am promoting it.