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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:25 AM
Original message
Jonathan Alter explains Obama's position on FISA
 
Run time: 10:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7gtfqsRShY
 
Posted on YouTube: June 29, 2008
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Posted on DU: June 29, 2008
By DU Member: szatmar666
Views on DU: 2073
 
This was on the Randi Rhodes show on Thursday 06/26/08

Many democrats just don't understand the fact that the new FISA bill is an attempt to reign in an out of control criminal president just before another election so that he cannot use warrantless wiretaps against his political enemies without any court supervision.

Also not many people know that the 4th amendment to the US Constitution was "temporarily" suspended in 2007 and that this FISA bill attempts to restore the Constitution, opposite to what Obama's critics on our side might say.

This from RawStory Sept 19th 2007:
"Republicans and the Bush administration used a 'bogus' terror threat that raised specific fears of an attack on the Capitol to scare lawmakers into adopting a dramatic temporary expansion of the government's spy powers last month, a former top intelligence committee Democrat said Wednesday.

Congress agreed to give President Bush and the nation's intelligence agencies extra authority to spy on Americans just hours before lawmakers left for a month-long recess in August. In the legislative session's final week, news emerged of an impending plot by foreign terrorists to attack the US Capitol, and Republicans pointed to the reports as justification to expand the administration's powers."

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Republicans_pushed_bogus_terror_threat_to_0919.html


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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Exactly: restoring Fourth Amendment immediately is paramount
To delay this bill (via filibuster, or whatever) will mean we will spend another 7 months under an unconstitutional suspension of the Fourth Amendment. This bill, as bad as it is, does do that.

The question of digging out the information about what the telecoms divulged, what the administration was doing, can be revisited. This is totally reversible after next January 20.

I'm never as worked up over legislation that is reversible as I am about things that are not--for example, a vote for war (totally irreversible, especially to those who die) or Supreme Court decisions.

Let's constrain this president right away, put the FISA courts at least constitutionally back in charge and warrants once again undeniably required. We're not going to get the information we want about the telecoms and the administration before Jan. 20, 2009 anyway. By then, a Democratic president can use many different means (as well as directing congress to reverse the immunity decision) to investigate constitutional affronts.

After thinking about it, I believe Obama's position is pragmatic and considered. Getting the constitution back on the books is first priority, and if that is all we can get at the moment, we should take that. Not taking it means allowing Bush and the telecoms another 7 months of unfettered spying.
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Save your breath
I tried to make this same argument in another thread and essentially had raw egg thrown at my laptop. :rofl:
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TonyClifton Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yeah, why doesn't this subject grow legs?
Bush should not be allowed to spy on anyone in this country, even if they are wanting to cause harm to others. Karma will catch up with them later
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. cut and paste from kos-seems like a straight forward unbiased analysis
There's been some excellent analysis of the FISA bill around the blogosphere. I particularly like Technosailor for a clear, concise, and lay person's view. For the lawyers, and people who've been deep in the weeds on this legislation enough to have a solid grasp of the terminology, Balkinization has featured a series of posts by David Kris, and an excellent summation and response by Marty Lederman. Julian Sanchez has an excellent political overview at The American Prospect, as does Kevin Drum. And it goes without saying, everything of Glenn Greenwald's

They all detail some of the main points, also included on Sen. Feingold's Fact Sheet. Here's a basic summary, but all of the above resources provide the depth of what's really wrong here.

* On retroactive immunity, the bill virtually guarantees it, despite the fig-leaf of a district court review.
* In their infinite wisdom, Hoyer and the negotiators set the bill to sunset in the fall of 2012--just before the next presidential election. This bad bill should not be in effect for that long, and shouldn't be subject to election year politics, again.
* The protections against reverse targeting are inadequte--the guidelines for targeting someone in the U.S. are not subject to judicial review, or the requirement of a court order for that surveillance.
* The bill doesn't prohibit bulk collection--"the collection of all international communications into and out of the U.S. to a whole continent or even the entire world."
* The bill contains a far too broad "exigency" exception to the idea of FISC exclusivity--the Attorney General or DNI can certify that they don't have time to get a court order.
* Even if the FISC determines after that fact that the surveillance violated the law, the government can still keep and use any of the information it obtains under those illegal warrants.
* The bill doesn't provide additional checks and balances for Americans at home whose international communications are obtained because they are communicating with someone overseas.

All that said, here's my favorite provision included in the legislation , Sec. 110, part 4 of Title I (p. 81):

SEC. 110. WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

DEFINITIONS.—



(4) WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.—Such section 101 is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
‘‘(p) ‘Weapon of mass destruction’ means—
‘‘(1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas device that is designed, intended, or has the capability to cause a mass casualty incident;
‘‘(2) any weapon that is designed, intended, or has the capability to cause death or serious bodily injury to a significant number of persons through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals or their precursors;
‘‘(3) any weapon involving a biological agent, toxin, or vector (as such terms are defined in section 178 of title 18, United States Code) that is designed, intended, or has the capability to cause death, illness, or serious bodily injury to a significant number of persons; or
‘‘(4) any weapon that is designed, intended, or has the capability to release radiation or radioactivity causing death, illness, or serious bodily injury to a significant number of persons.’’.

I wonder how many Senators blithely casting their lot with this bill realize that they're redefining warfare.

There's every chance that the immunity provisions in the bill are unconstitutional. But Congress doesn't know because no Judiciary Committee hearings were held to vet that portion of the bill. Nor were any Defense Committee hearings held to vet this WMD provision.

That's what happens when the oversight muscle of Congress becomes so atrophed. They don't even conduct oversight of themselves. And they don't know what they're voting for.

However, it looks as though Senate leadership is trying to delay the vote on the bill until after recess.

Durbin, D-Ill., told reporters Thursday that Democratic leaders plan to wait until July take up the bill, which rewrites the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA. Durbin said that Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., a leading opponent of the bill, has asked that the Senate delay consideration of the bill.

Perhaps our Senators can take this opportunity to spend some time actually reading what they're going to be voting on.

Update: The link to Sen. Feingold's fact sheet was an old one. It has been updated with the correct link.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Total Bullshit: This goes even further to eviscerate the 4th Am.
You don't know what you are talking about. For the true story go to glenngreenwald@salon.com... a constitutional attorney who in the last 4articles explains in depth why this is not so and shows why this guy specifically doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Let's K&R this. And could somebody please make Glenn Greenwald listen to it?
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. He did, thank you very bloody much ...
UPDATE II: John Dean clarifies what he said about the FISA controversy -- and, more importantly, what he didn't say -- during that Olbermann segment. There's also a tool linked at the bottom of that post created by Obama supporters for urging him to take the right stand on the FISA bill.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. thanks, I just learned the details
I got a lot of feedback on dailykos and now I am convinced Dean and Greenwald are right. Thanks for the links!
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Where are you seeing that Greenwald listened to the clip of Randi's show?
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Greenwald already debunked it. What is with you guys believing this crap
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. The courts don't do anything but approve if pres say it was to protectr from terrorists.Period
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szatmar666 Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
6. IMPORTANT UPDATE:
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 04:14 AM by szatmar666
In the light of discussions I had on Daily Kos I am now convinced that Alter is wrong. Therefore I will join the Obama supporters' group urging him to vote against this.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/SenatorObama-PleaseVoteAgainstFISA
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. Good Move. Glad you came around.I love Obama also but this is wrong
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. The Shorter Explanation


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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
10. Senator feingold has called this bill wrong........
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD: Well, this is a great blow to the rights of the American people. And much of the publicity has been about a very important aspect: giving these telephone companies immunity that cooperated with the President’s illegal program. We think that should be decided based on current law, not some kind of a retroactive immunity. But that’s essentially what this bill does http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/24/123511/197/852/541211
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
11. I'm sure all Americans will be relieved ...
by the courts supervision of the presidents wiretapping of political enemies.

Behold once again, the insanity of being an American.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Courts don't supervise...they only approve with blanket approval. It's a joke to say that
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. The ACLU knows more than Alter about it. Alter is being an idiot.
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. ALter is making excusess for Obama - for some reason
:shrug:
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ToeBot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
13. Even if this is true it doesn't justify the Democrats actions, or their zeal with regards to immunit...
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 10:19 AM by ToeBot
What was stopping them from explaining the situation up front? Oh, they didn't want to be exposed as complete fucking IDIOTS? Too late. So where is this piece of legislation? Lets have a look at it. Show me where it gives away the 4th Amendment. And are the proponents of this new travesty trying to argue that the only way to fix their (supposed) violation of the Constitution is to, once again, give Bush everything he wants? What are they afraid of, that he will play them for fools? Again, too fucking late.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. House dems voting for it immediately became $18,000 richer that one day.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. This is the very deceitful spin Pelosi tried to put on it. It's bullshit.
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD CALLS ON SENATE TO VOTE “NO” ON ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE BILL, H.R. 6304
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. thank you for This
I can't believe they are now spinning this as a good thing. Wow, wow...
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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. YW - too bad it's getting lost - not much K&R
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
26. I believe Dean when he said...
"I said that when I read the bill, and talked to the folks at the ACLU who had been following it, that it was not clear. I raised it when appearing on Countdown with the hope that someone might figure it out. But that is the nature of this badly drafted bill that it is not clear what it does and does not do, and the drafters are not saying.

But even if the bill is unclear there is no question the Bush Administration is not going to do anything to the telecoms, so the question is whether a future DOJ could -- and here there is case law protecting the telecoms. But there may be language buried in the bill that protects them as well but it can only be found by reading the bill with a half dozen other laws which I have not yet done.

I made no declarative statements rather I only raised questions that jumped at me when reading the 114 page monster."

I do not believe John Alter.

It seems Obama is really trying to lose the left vote.

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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
27. So glad someone uploaded this best to listen without the pictures to focus on what he says.
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