Obama tells auto execs what part they played in their own downfall

[Turborama]

Run time: 12:37 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1nno1El3-g   Posted on YouTube: May 10, 2007 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: November 20, 2008 By DU Member: Turborama Views on DU: 1644

 
May 2007 Address to the Detroit Economic Club

“Whenever an attempt was made to raise our fuel efficiency standards the auto companies would lobby against it, spending millions to prevent the very reform that could have saved their industry. Even as they shed thousands of jobs and billions in profits over the last few years, they’ve continued to reward failure, in some cases with lucrative bonuses for CEOs.”

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American Energy Policy, Asleep at the Spigot

"Though analysts say automakers who shoveled out highly profitable and highly inefficient road hogs like S.U.V.’s and pickups deserve much of the blame, they also criticize legislators who failed to provide an incentive for consumers to switch to fuel-sipping cars. "

Full article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/business/06oil.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=all

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Chrysler are in fact already making 35 MPG cars and SUVs in America, but American citizens can't buy them... In addition, Ford are producing cars in Europe that do up to 65 MPG and GM are making some great cars outside of the US too (details below), they have the technology already so why not not shift that to the factories back home?




Chrysler:

One of the keys to restarting the American economy is staring us in the face. While our future hinges on the rapid adoption of fuel-efficient vehicles, our government stands in the way of a rapid free market solution.

35 MPG can be an immediate reality, with one domestic manufacturer, if the United States government would only allow it to happen. Our elected representatives need to be aware of the facts and make the appropriate decisions.

Chrysler is uniquely positioned among the Big Three US automakers. Unlike Ford and General Motors, Chrysler is already building a slew of high-MPG diesel-powered vehicles right here in the United States.

Amazing as it may seem in these difficult times, Chrysler is not allowed to sell those cars domestically, due to recently tightened emissions regulations. With the exception of the domestically-available Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel, all of Chrysler’s North American manufactured high-MPG diesel-equipped vehicles are being shipped abroad.

Each and every one of Chrysler’s European models is available with a diesel engine, with the exception of the Dodge Viper. In fact, a diesel engine can be found under the hood of more than 50% of the vehicles that Chrysler sells in Europe.

All-in-all, a dozen Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep diesel-engined models are currently available outside of the United States, but are not sold domestically.

Here’s the eye-opener … half of those models currently achieve 35 miles per gallon combined.

That’s 35 MPG … right now.

And what’s even more crazy? All of these 35 MPG cars and SUVs are built in North American plants by North American workers … American citizens cannot buy and drive the fuel-efficient cars they build.

The thriftiest of the bunch delivers nearly 50 MPG on the highway … and it’s no dog off the line, turning in 0-62 mile per hour (MPH) times under nine seconds. The fastest in the pack delivers 7.6 second 0-62 times and 35.6 MPG on the highway.

Needless to say, these are wonderful world-class cars, a world apart from your Uncle’s noisy, slow, smelly 80’s-era diesel.


The Mercedes-Benz V6 diesel-equipped Jeep Grand Cherokee is the first US-built passenger vehicle to meet the tougher Federal emissions requirements. With the emissions work done on the Mercedes’ 3.0 liter engine, we expect the Chrysler 300 to be the next diesel-powered domestic, as it shares the same powerplant. (At present, diesel 300s are being built in Graz, Austria.)

Chrysler is using four different diesel engines, in all:

2.0 liter Volkswagen turbo-diesel inline four (Avenger, Caliber, Compass, Journey, Sebring, Patriot)
2.2 liter Mercedes-Benz inline four (PT Cruiser)
2.8 liter VM Motari inline four (Cherokee, Grand Voyager, Nitro, Wrangler)
3.0 liter Mercedes-Benz V6 (300, Commander, Grand Cherokee)
What if the federal government temporarily rolled back the emissions requirements for one or two years, to allow the sale of these fuel-sipping vehicles while Chrysler and its partners complete the engineering necessary to meet the current regulations?

Crazier schemes have been implemented to stimulate the economy, no doubt about that. But this one just might work … by spurring investment and putting people back to work.

As you ponder that thought, take a gander at a group of specifications that compare the European diesels with the most fuel-efficient engines in each of the US domestics here:
http://www.mpgomatic.com/2008/03/15/35-mpg-why-wait-until-2020/

Ford:

The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have
Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.

f ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm


FRANKFURT — Ford of Europe unveiled three new alt-fuel cars here, the first of which we’ll see is the Focus ECOnetic model in 2007. It combines the latest common-rail diesel powertrain and other engineering features to reduce CO2 emissions to the absolute minimum. Powered by a 109-hp 1.6-liter Duratorq common-rail turbodiesel engine with a diesel particulate filter, the ECOnetic is gunning for around 54 mpg.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4221669.html


GM

CHEVROLET EQUINOX FUEL CELL AND SAAB 9-3 BIOPOWER RECEIVE TOP HONORS AT MICHELIN CHALLENGE BIBENDUM 2007

The zero-gas, zero-emissions Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell electric vehicle is a fully functional crossover car that is powered by GM’s fourth-generation fuel cell propulsion system. It has a U.S. Environmental Protection Administration (EPA)-estimated range of 320 km (200 miles) per fill-up.

The Saab 9-3 BioPower flex-fuel vehicle runs on E85 fuel (85 percent bioethanol/15 percent gasoline). Bioethanol can be produced from a wide range of agricultural crops and biomass, including sugar cane in Brazil and corn in the United States. Unlike gasoline, its consumption does not raise atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide (CO2), the main greenhouse gas that contributes to climate change.

“These products showcase GM’s leadership position in the development of advanced vehicle technologies to reduce dependency on petroleum and boost vehicle fuel efficiency,” said GM China Group President and Managing Director Kevin Wale. “Their appearance in China demonstrates their potential for helping resolve challenges involving rising emissions and energy security in the world’s second-largest vehicle market.”

This is the fourth year that GM has participated in the Challenge Bibendum, an international forum where automakers, policymakers, media and other stakeholders discuss the future of sustainable transportation and demonstrate current and future vehicle technologies.

In addition to the Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell electric vehicle and Saab 9-3 BioPower flex-fuel vehicle, GM displayed the Opel Corsa 1.3 CDTI ecoFLEX, Opel Zafira 1.6 CNG, Chevrolet Tahoe 2-Mode Hybrid and Saturn Aura Green Line hybrid at this year’s Challenge Bibendum. GM also hosted a ride and drive for attendees and led panel discussions on key transportation and energy issues facing the world today.
http://www.gmeurope.info/social_media_newsroom/archives/283-Chevrolet-Equinox-Fuel-Cell-and-Saab-9-3-BioPower-Receive-Top-Honors-at-Michelin-Challenge-Bibendum-2007.html

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It's time for this craziness to stop... If these cars go on sale in the US, surely this would be a really good way of helping themselves out? These vehicles can run on domestically produced 'new generation' biofuels made from algae, thus creating sustainable win win solutions for themselves, the environment and the dependence on foreign oil through creating a new domestic renewable fuel industry...


President (Elect) Obama has stated that part of the $15 Billion a year will be invested in "next generation biofuels". What are these "next generation biofuels"?

"Obama: A new chapter of American leadership on climate change"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hvG2XptIEJk

In search of sustainable fuel.

Threatened by the latest rises in fuel costs - visionary airlines and a leading fuel technology innovator join forces.

Leading global air carriers Air New Zealand, Continental, Virgin Atlantic Airways, and biofuel technology developer UOP LLC, a Honeywell company, today announced they will be the first wave of aviation-related members to join the newly formed Algal Biomass Organization (ABO).

Together with Boeing, which co-chairs the ABO, the airlines are advocating for the identification and acceleration of new generations of fuel sources for the industry that have lower life cycle carbon emissions; in this case sustainable algae-based biofuels.
http://www.4hoteliers.com/4hots_nshw.php?mwi=4650

With such big names already behind this, the automotive industry needs to get involved too...

Some facts and figures:

1 acre of corn = 18 gallons of oil per year

1 acre of palm = 7 to 800 gallons of oil per year

1 acre of open pond algae = 20,000 gallons of oil per year

1 acre of vertically grown algae = 100,000 gallons of oil per year

An area of land equal to 1/10th of the state of New Mexico would produce enough algae to supply the energy demands for the entire United States.

Paraphrased from
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ToojK_MJd0
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MeIgaRfyD4


PetroSun began operation of its commercial algae-to-biofuels facility on April 1st, 2008.

The facility, located in Rio Hondo Texas, will produce an estimated 4.4 million gallons of algal oil and 110 million lbs. of biomass per year off a series of saltwater ponds spanning 1,100 acres. Twenty of those acres will be reserved for the experimental production of a renewable JP8 jet-fuel.

More:
http://gas2.org/2008/03/29/first-algae-biodiesel-plant-goes-online-april-1-2008/

I thoroughly recommend watching this presentation, I know it's nearly an hour long, but it's very informative...

The Biology and Business of Biofuels: Algae as Biofuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FrbMMwDccY

[liberalla]

1. Glad to be first Rec!

:kick:

[99th_Monkey]

2. Wow! This is fantastic information!! What I DON'T get is why the fuck can't these be sold in the US

So what if some run on diesel? My/our gas stations have diesel fuel for sale.

WHAT'S TO KEEP THE US CONGRESS FROM INSISTING AS PART ANY BAIL-OUT AGREEMENT:
1) THAT THE BIG THREE HALT PRODUCTION OF GAS GUZZLERS IMMEDIATELY & SELL THEM AT A DISCOUNT IF NECESSARY,
AND
2) REMOVE ANY AND ALL LEGAL OR OTHER OBSTACLES TO SELLING THESE FUEL-EFFICIENT CARS TO US CONSUMERS, AND
REQUIRE A "US CONSUMERS FIRST" PRIORITY ON MARKETING AND SALES OF THESE VEHICLES ... and ....

WA-LA ... WE'RE THERE ... are we not? Well maybe not ALL the way there, but certainly a fur piece down the road to sanity.

What am I missing here? If the Big Three want my tax dollars to bail them out for their stupidity, they damn well better be
selling these fuel-efficient cars available to US consumers, or they can just fuck off as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously. :wtf:

[Sherman A1]

3. Agreed & Well Said

I don't want anyone losing their job and I am willing to ante up, to help but their needs to be onerous strings attached to any bailout for the auto industry, wall street or anyone else.

[Turborama]

5. Exactly! Here's some more info that shows how ridiculous this is...

Check out this graphic that shows a US Ford vs a UK Ford that runs on gas.

The US one is double the weight of the UK one and has double the horsepower. Yet they are both the same price...



The top ten most fuel efficient cars in the UK do over 60 MPG (the top three over 70 MPG). I know that's Imperial Gallons but the number one most fuel efficient (non-hybrid) car in Britain does 74.2 MP Imperial Gallon (slightly under 62 MP US Gallon). These are diesel cars, but the new generation biofuels would take any worries less informed consumers - who still think diesel is dirty - may have about that.

The most fuel efficient American made car is the Ford Focus, which ties for the No. 1 spot with the Chevrolet Aveo and Pontiac Vibe, which can do 28 miles per US gallon. When you consider the cars mentioned above that can do 74 miles per Imperial gallon, there's a lot of room for improvement.

Most Fuel-Efficient American Cars
http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/29/american-fuel-efficient-forbeslife-cx_jm_0829cars.html

Top 10 most economical cars in the UK
http://cars.uk.msn.com/greenmotoring/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1379476


The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have

Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.

The ECOnetic will go on sale in Europe in November

By David Kiley
September 15, 2008

If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.

Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."

None of this is stopping European and Japanese automakers, which are betting they can jump-start the U.S. market with new diesel models. Mercedes-Benz by next year will have three cars it markets as "BlueTec." Even Nissan (NSANY) and Honda, which long opposed building diesel cars in Europe, plan to introduce them in the U.S. in 2010. But Ford, whose Fiesta ECOnetic compares favorably with European diesels, can't make a business case for bringing the car to the U.S.

TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT
First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.

Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.

The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

As this guy said, "It's as if Ford's corporate strategy is to fail as spectacularly as it can."
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/11/08/ford-on-selling-65mp.html

[99th_Monkey]

8. Thanks for this info.. I hope this gets more exposure on DU, M$M, and in DC hearings.

I'd like to see this info on the Greatest Page, but this was posted as a video and many may have
simply watched the video and not scrolled down to read all the even more informative text... and
it's only gotten 10 recs so far. :shrug:

[Turborama]

10. Any suggestions where I should put it?I haven't used the other forums apart from "Breaking News" and

am not sure where the best place to put the info is...

[99th_Monkey]

11. Maybe "General Discussion"? ... but with a catchy title

It needs some catchy lead-in, that grabs attention & recs. Generally I hate it when people post with
headers saying "Rec this thread if you...blah blah", as it seems kinda like being an attention whore; but
in this case I'd make an exception.

Maybe something like this .. "Rec. this thread to demand 45-65mpg cars for US Consumers NOW ..." or some such.

This is explosive and powerful information, which points us all toward a swift, sane & sound solution to this
crisis; and at same time is very GOOD news in that these fuel-efficient cars are ALL-FUCKING-READY being
manufactured in USA, and sold... just not in the US?? It's just mind boggling.

I'll leave the rest to your good judgment as to the forum and lead-in. Hope this is helpful. Maybe between
the two of us we can get this to the greatest page yet.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help. :hi:

[Turborama]

12. Thank-you so much for your input. I posted it on General before I read your response here's the link

Here's how the "Big 3" can bail themselves out, help revive the US economy & reduce global warming...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4501189

What about that title, I'm not sure, is it catchy enough? I've wrapped it and taken out the tilds as suggested by the 1st responder - which has made it a lot easier to read...

Thanks again...

[Turborama]

13. Diesel cars: 7 worries, 7 answers

Here's some more info that allays the fears that most people have. In addition to answer 7, hybrids have a very quick depreciation in comparison and their lifespan is a lot shorter... Also (while on the topic of hybrids) - on an environmental note - what's going to happen to all the batteries when these hybrids go the the big car maker in the sky? :shrug:

Just as diesel cars are preparing to enter the U.S. market in a big way, misconceptions may be causing interest to wane.

By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: March 11, 2008: 11:12 AM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Diesel engines power half the passenger vehicles sold in Europe but almost none here. Stricter U.S. clean air regulations have meant that - until recently - they were simply too dirty to be sold in the most populous U.S. states, including California, New York and New Jersey.

This virtual shut-out means that American drivers have little experience with modern diesel engines. The last time diesel cars were sold here in any significant number was in the 1980s, and the ones we saw then were noisy, belched black smoke and were slow to move.

Recent survey data from Kelley Blue Book indicates that diesel perceptions haven't improved much. In fact, views seem to be getting worse just as car companies are preparing to introduce us to better performing, cleaner diesel engines.

Interest in diesels among new car buyers is trending downward, according to Kelley Blue Book. It now stands at 39% compared to 60% for gas-electric hybrids. It's even lower than consideration for hydrogen fuel cells, which are still decades away from hitting the market.

But a close look at seven common worries about diesel engines reveals that most of them don't reflect today's reality.

1. I just don't get the difference: Like gasoline engines, diesels burn liquid fuel derived from petroleum. But unlike gas engines, diesels don't use a spark to ignite the fuel. Instead, air is squeezed inside a hot cylinder. At just the right time, fuel is squirted into the cylinder where it instantly ignites in the super-heated compressed air. That releases energy that pushes the cylinder down, powering the vehicle.

That might seem like a minor difference - either way, stuff burns and pushes pistons - but it ultimately means that diesel engines behave differently from gas engines in a number of ways. Diesels have mostly been used in trucks and trains which benefit from the engine's low-speed pulling power and greater fuel efficiency.

Gas engines have traditionally been used in cars because they tend to be quieter, offer quicker acceleration and run more easily when cold. But newer diesel engines are closing - and even eliminating - differences in these areas.

2. Diesel engines get worse fuel economy: Surprisingly, fewer than half of respondents in Kelley Blue Book's survey agreed with the statement that diesels engines "are fuel efficient." Actually, that's their main selling point.

Because of how the engine uses fuel - creating lots of power at low engine speeds - and because the fuel contains more energy per gallon, diesels get much better fuel economy than gas-powered cars. In many cases, diesels get mileage similar to gasoline-hybrid cars of the same size and type.

3. Diesels are old technology: It's true that diesel is an old engine technology. Rudolf Diesel patented his engine design in the 1890s. But the spark-ignited gas-powered engine that powers most of our cars is even older.

Like the gas engine, diesel has been undergoing a lot of improvements in the last few decades as fuel economy demands have increased, so a modern diesel engine is no less "modern" than anything else.

4. Diesel engines are noisy: Old diesel engines used to make loud clanking and popping noises caused by the sudden, high-pressure ignition of fuel inside the engine. Gas engines ignite fuel under pressure, too, but the much greater pressures used in diesels resulted in a popping and banging noises.

New diesels create a more gentle increase in pressure by injecting small amounts of fuel into the cylinder even as the piston is rising. Those small ignitions aren't enough to push the piston back down, but they keep things warm and increase pressure slightly.

Then, when the piston reaches the top, a bigger push of fuel creates the big burst of energy that pushes the piston back down. Another series of smaller fuel injections then keep the piston moving down, easing decompression. The result is gentler, quieter combustion cycle that eliminates most of the noise.

5. Diesel engines spew filth into the air: This has been the real culprit keeping diesels out of the U.S. market. America's strict clean air rules simply couldn't be met.

The extremely high temperatures and pressures inside diesel engines create nasty pollutants like nitrous oxides and so-called "diesel particulate matter." In order to get diesels to meet the same requirements as gas engines, car companies are now using a variety of emission cleaning technologies including filters and devices that release cleaning substances into the exhaust stream.

To make all this possible, gas stations that sell diesel fuel are now required to sell "ultra clean diesel" that has much less sulfur. Sulfur used to be included to help lubricate the engine, but its presence would have interfered with these new emissions-cleaning technologies. With that sulfur taken out, diesel exhaust can now be held to the same standards as gasoline exhaust.

6. Diesel-powered cars are slow: While diesel engines have loads of pulling power - called torque - acceleration has been a traditional weak point. All modern diesel engines now have turbochargers that provide additional boost, which has made a big difference in performance.

Diesels have a gentler take-off before the turbochargers start adding boost. Once things get rolling, they can provide a surprising rush of acceleration. Most drivers would never miss the performance of a gasoline-powered car. In fact, diesel engines with less high-end power - or horsepower - can deliver similar, or even better, real-world performance.

7. They cost too much: While diesel offers a less technologically complex way to get hybrid-like fuel economy, it's not without added costs. Diesel engines cost more to make than gas engines because of the need to withstand high internal pressures, and because they require turbocharging to provide adequate performance.

Diesels also require expensive emission-cleaning technology. Like gasoline/electric hybrid cars, diesel cars will cost American buyers thousands more than comparable gas-powered versions.

Diesels could make up much of that added cost in better resale value, though. Diesel cars. They hold their value much better than gas-powered cars or hybrids, according to Kelley Blue Book.

--Bonus question: Due to a strong reader response, we added this worry to the list:

Diesels are hard to start in cold weather: Because they rely on engine heat and because diesel fuel tends to thicken in cold temperatures, diesels have traditionally been hard to start in cold temperatures.

Improvements in diesel engines and diesel fuels have helped eliminate these problems. Like gasoline, diesel fuels are reformulated for cold weather.

Improved fuel injectors help by better "atomizing" the fuel, spraying out a fine mist that ignites more easily. Newer "glow plugs" - internal heating elements that warm diesel engine cylinders - also heat up right away, providing quick starts even on cold days.

First Published: March 10, 2008: 1:12 PM EDT
http://cnnmoney.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=Diesel+misconceptions+-+Mar.+10,+2008&expire=-1&urlID=32606216&fb=Y&url=http://www.mutual-funds.us/2008/02/27/autos/diesel_worries/index.htm%3Fpostversion%3D2008031111&partnerID=2200

I so wish I'd worked out the text wrapping thing before I'd composed the initial post :blush: :dunce:
Added all these to my journal though, which makes for much easier reading... ;-)

[stlsaxman]

4. Great speech and excellent post! 5th rec- "Off to the Greatest Page with you!"

:hi:

[Turborama]

6. Thank-you! Is there anywhere else on DU you'd recommend I could post all this as well?

I have a lot more info on this to share...

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. Someone had to say it.

[Jack Rabbit]

9. K/R

!!