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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 04:29 AM
Original message
Inside Story - Who won the Israeli election?
Edited on Thu Feb-12-09 04:54 AM by Turborama
 
Run time: 12:29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdeX4oVDKO4
 
Posted on YouTube: February 12, 2009
By YouTube Member:
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Posted on DU: February 12, 2009
By DU Member: Turborama
Views on DU: 1359
 
"Foreign minister Tzipi Livni and rival Benyamin Netanyahu have both declared victory and vowed to head the next government in Israel. But can an election end with 2 winners?"

Part 2 is available on AJ English's Youtube channel...

As this one isn't about the I/P conflict in and of itself, and is mainly about Israel's election, I thought it was/is a valid post here...


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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm glad this one is allowed to remain up.
Edited on Thu Feb-12-09 10:21 AM by balantz
Here is one from yesterday's Democracy Now. I am afraid to post it here in the video forum because of the I/P content. It's also on the Israeli elections.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmhpBE16J44


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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Check out
"Riz Khan - Which way Israel?" on AJ English's Youtube channel, that program has also got some good insight into Israel's domestic politics...
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I will. Thanks. n/t
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. That was excellent. Thanks. n/t
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. one part caught my attention at 8:27 into the tape.
what John Mearsheimer said seems to be very true, why do we have to pledge our allegiance to Israel? can't we remain neutral.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. That seems to be the big question.
Is it because Israel is important to Corporate Imperialism? Control of Middle East politics and resources?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Well, first and foremost, Israel has to survive. Our question is basically
do we support the only democracy in that region? That must be where we start the discussion.

Israel is a U.S. ally that is constantly threatened with being wiped off the face of the earth. That is the stated desire of its enemies. If you recognize that fact right at the start, we can then move on to other questions...
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Israel is not "the only democracy in the region".
There are also elections in Turkey, Egypt, Algeria, Bahrain, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq.

Besides, Hamas were democratically elected.

Even if what you said is true, I think your question missed out a word...

"Do we *unconditionally* support the only democracy in that region?"

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Yes, Israel is the only democracy in the region.
"Voting" in of itself does not make a government a democracy. Please tell me you understand that fact? As for the other thing; ""Do we *unconditionally* support the only democracy in that region?"" We don't but it is a nice lie that the anti-Israel folks love to claim as fact.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. No, Israel is NOT the only democracy in the region
Edited on Fri Feb-13-09 05:45 PM by Turborama
A nice spin attempt, though.

I understand the commonly used definition of the word democracy, thanks. Are you saying NONE of the countries I mentioned are democracies?

If so, please give your reasons for saying this, and address each country individually, not some generic answer, thanks.



Me:
"Do we *unconditionally* support the only democracy in that region?""

You:
"We don't but it is a nice lie that the anti-Israel folks love to claim as fact."

This was a question, I wasn't claiming it as a fact. Please answer the question with facts that back up your assertion that we do not unconditionally support Israel, instead of using and ad hom/strawman implication that I am a liar and "anti-Israel".

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes, Israel is the only democracy in the region.
Edited on Fri Feb-13-09 08:47 PM by Behind the Aegis
A poor spin attempt on your part, once again.

"I understand the commonly used definition of the word democracy, thanks." Are you sure? It wouldn't appear so. Therefore, I will provide the common definition:

1 a: government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections Merriam-Webster Online


"Are you saying NONE of the countries I mentioned are democracies? " That is exactly what I am saying.

"If so, please give your reasons for saying this, and address each country individually, not some generic answer, thanks." Since you are unwilling to support your own assertions, I will disprove them.

Turkey -- Though probably the closest to an actual democracy, Turkey is a Parliamentary Republic. We also have fairly good relations with this country and are supportive.
Lebanon -- Like Turkey, Lebanon is also a Parliamentary Republic, though it differs on a few levels.
Egypt -- Has a Semi-presidential Republic
Algeria -- First, this is not a Middle Eastern Country, though part of what is considered the "Greater Middle East," and second they have a Presidential Republic system of government.
Bahrain -- A Constitutional Monarchy
Iraq -- Prior to our illegal invasion, she was under a Presidential Republic system of government, but closer to a dictatorship. They are now in the process of developing a Parliamentary Republic. There are indications it could become a Parliamentary Democracy.
Iran -- Was that a joke?! If not, Iran is an Islamic Republic.
and finally,
Israel -- A Parliamentary Democracy

Me:
"Do we *unconditionally* support the only democracy in that region?""

You:
"We don't but it is a nice lie that the anti-Israel folks love to claim as fact."


"This was a question, I wasn't claiming it as a fact." I said nothing of the sort. I even answered the question. I went one step further and explained who uses it.

"Please answer the question with facts that back up your assertion that we do not unconditionally support Israel... Very simply, look at recent events. The US places conditions on aid and responses to Israel frequently. LBN and I/P are rife with examples as are any major news source. The other issue with your "question" it is an "infinite" question. Proving or disproving, as you are wanting, would be a monumental task. However, for simplicity sake, every time the US dictates what aid goes to Israel under what conditions, it is, as the word suggests, "conditional."

"instead of using and ad hom/strawman implication that I am a liar and "anti-Israel"."

More definitions for you:

ad hominmen -- attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
strawman -- a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

My answer, as already stated, addressed your question and even provided additional information as to who uses it. Whereas you didn't claim it to be "fact," the qualification of you being a liar would not apply. Of course, repeating a lie and not knowing it is a lie, does not a liar make. A liar is one who knowingly uses false information. Since you didn't use it as 'fact,' it cannot be used to determine if you are or aren't anti-Israel and that statement was, again, for the third time, to explain who likes to use that particular "fact." So, I implied nothing, it was a poor inference on your part.

ETA: "We support Israel because it is the only democracy in the Middle East" is a politically expedient sound-byte. There are numerous reason the US supports Israel and there are also other nations in the region which also curry favor with the US and are considered "supported" by us.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thank-you for your reasoned reply
Edited on Mon Feb-16-09 12:13 PM by Turborama
It's nice to be able to discuss something as important as this without it turning into an argument.

"Voting" in of itself does not make a government a democracy.

The definition you use for democracy is the same I would have used. 1.a and 1.b are both describing elected governments. What do people do in elections? They vote...

ETA: "We support Israel because it is the only democracy in the Middle East" is a politically expedient sound-byte. There are numerous reason the US supports Israel and there are also other nations in the region which also curry favor with the US and are considered "supported" by us.

Agreed.

In addition, could you expand on the 'numerous reasons', please? I ask this out of genuine curiosity as this is a key issue.

BTW

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=cia+factbook&btnG=Search">The CIA Factbook has The United States of America's government type as "Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition", Iraq's government type is described as a "parliamentary democracy", France is simply a "Republic" and Switzerland is "formally a confederation but similar in structure to a federal republic". Israel's democracy isn't rated very high on Nation Master but at least it is a democracy.

So, whether these countries are democracies or republics, most, if not all, of the countries we've been discussing have elections and aren't run by evil dictatorships that surround Israel - which is kind of what that original statement implied.

At the end of the day. We've got two ways of looking at how the situation will evolve. Either it's going to be war without end in the Middle East or, somehow, peace will prevail.

I prefer trying to work out how the latter could happen, hopefully you do too.

(edit to tidy up things)
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Mearsheimer talks more about that...
starting at 3 minutes 15 seconds on part 2...
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