That Mitchell and Webb Look: Homeopathic Emergency Room

[Ian David]

Run time: 02:33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0   Posted on YouTube: July 03, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: July 20, 2009 By DU Member: Ian David Views on DU: 4119

 
An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural


homeopathy This claimed healing modus is included here because it is an excellent example of an attempt to make sympathetic magic work. Its founder, Christian Friedrich Samuel Hahnemann (1775?-1843), believed that all illnesses develop from only three sources: syphilis, venereal warts, and what he called “the itch.”

The motto of homeopathy is “Similia similibus curantur” (“Like cures like”). It claims that doses of substances that produce certain symptoms will relieve those symptoms; however, the “doses” are extremely attenuated solutions or mixtures, so attenuated that not a single molecule of the original substance remains. In fact, the homeopathic corrective is actually pure water, nothing more. The theory is that the vibrations or “effect” of the diluted-out substance are still present and work on the patient. Currently, researchers in homeopathy are examining a new notion that water can be magnetized and can transmit its medicinal powers by means of a copper wire. Really.

The royal family of England adopted homeopathy at its very beginning and have retained a homeopathic physician on staff ever since.

The only concern of homeopaths is to treat the symptoms of disease, rather than the basic causes, which they do not recognize. Thus homeopathy correctly falls into the category of magic.

And quackery.

More:
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/encyclopedia.html


See also:






Homeopathy

<snip>

Homeopaths refer to "the Law of Infinitesimals" and the "Law of Similars" as grounds for using minute substances and for believing that like heals like, but these are not natural laws of science. If they are laws at all, they are metaphysical laws, i.e., beliefs about the nature of reality that would be impossible to test by empirical means. Hahnemann's ideas did originate in experience. That he drew metaphysical conclusions from empirical events does not, however, make his ideas empirically testable. The law of infinitesimals seems to have been partly derived from his notion that any remedy would cause the patient to get worse before getting better and that one could minimize this negative effect by significantly reducing the size of the dose. Most critics of homeopathy balk at this "law" because it leads to remedies that have been so diluted as to have nary a single molecule of the substance one starts with.

Hahnemann came upon his Law of Similars (like cures like) in 1790 while translating William Cullen's Materia Medica into German (Loudon 1997: 94). He began experimenting on himself with various substances, starting with cinchona.

<snip>

We know that the sum of all the scientific evidence shows clearly that homeopathic remedies are no more effective than placebos. This does not mean that patients don't feel better or actually get better after seeing a homeopath. That is quite another matter and is clearly the reason for the satisfied customers. (Here the reader might consult the entries on the placebo effect, the post hoc fallacy and the regressive fallacy.)

<snip>

The main harm from classical homeopathy is not likely to come from its remedies, which are probably safe because they are inert, though this is changing as homeopathy becomes indiscernible from herbalism in some places. One potential danger is in the encouragement to self-diagnosis and treatment. Another danger lurks in not getting proper treatment by a science-trained medical doctor in those cases where the patient could be helped by such treatment, such as for a bladder or yeast infection, asthma, or cancer.* Homeopathy might work in the sense of helping some people feel better some of the time. Homeopathy does not work, however, in the sense of explaining pathologies or their cures in a way which not only conforms with the data but which promises to lead us to a greater understanding of the nature of health and disease.

More:
http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. You don't like it, don't use it

but please let those of us who find it works be allowed to continue its use. I've never met anyone who forced homeopathy on an unwilling patient.

BTW, the FDA allows certain remedies to be administered only with a doctor's prescription. Why is this so if it is only quackery?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Silent3]

4. "please let those of us who find it works"

There's a difference between "I took X and felt better" and "I took X and X worked" -- individuals cannot by personal experience, however, determine that difference.

The only true measures of efficacy are statistical, because that's the only way to get beyond the fact that people's individual health problems can improve or worsen for reasons totally apart from whatever treatments they attempt. If you have a cold that you were going to recover from in seven days no matter what, and you take a different medicine every day for sevens days looking for a "cure", you can't validly conclude that whatever you took on the seventh day made you better.

That's the problem with homeopathy and a great deal of so-called "alternative medicine". It's almost entirely supported by "it worked for me!" personal anecdote but no hard data. There are probably a few valid, effective treatments out there, but it doesn't look good for many of them which have been subject to real scientific scrutiny.

As for "letting" people use what they want -- I'm happy to let adults do whatever they want to do to themselves, from sensible to suicidal. On the other hand, I shouldn't have to facilitate superstition and quackery, and I certainly don't want to help pay for it via my health insurance premiums or tax dollars.

[tabatha]

7. But many pay for pharmaceuticals that go wrong or don't work.

or are outrageously priced.

I think many people who go alternative routes pay out of their own pockets because official "cures" cost too much and sometime do too much damage. I have yet to see a pharmaceutical that does not have bad side effects. If one can fix oneself merely by changing one's diet, is that not preferable?

And as for people's experience of feeling better after using something several times that does not harm them, then I think that is a better treatment to follow. Certainly, if they felt better after so-called "quack" treatment, surely going to a doctor is not warranted.

[Silent3]

8. IF diet changes work, sure, that's great.

You need more than individual testimonial of people who think something "worked" for them before you're sure you truly have a valid treatment. Further, the bad side of pharmaceuticals isn't automatically the good side for someone waving quartz crystals over your chakras, or herbs that can be dangerous too.

And as for people's experience of feeling better after using something several times that does not harm them...

Delay in treatment can in and of itself be a harm, if what you have turns out to be something that isn't going to just go away. You can't assume every "all's well the ends well" anecdote means you can always skip over evidence-based treatment and be so lucky.

[Ian David]

9. I once bet on number 13 playing roulette and won $50.

Therefore, whenever you play roulette, you should always bet on number 13, and you will win $50.

[tabatha]

11. I don't believe in the quartz crystal nonsense.

What is ailing most of America, is the crap the corporations feed us.

[AlbertCat]

41. But many pay for pharmaceuticals that go wrong or don't work.

This has nothing to do with the fact that homeopathic is quackery.

Placebo is a real and sometimes beneficial effect that cannot be used by "real" medicine because the doctor must tell you what he's giving you. If a doctor gave you some homeopathic stuff, he'd have to tell you it's just water.

Water doesn't have a "memory" and the "vibrations" malarkey is a common trait of...crap.

[Merlot]

16. Homeopathy works really well with animals

no placibo effect. It's been used on horses for years.

Look it up.

[Silent3]

28. I can find plenty of info on pro-homeopathy sites...

...most of it just being anecdotal claims about homeopathy working.

At this link: http://www.holisticonline.com/Homeopathy/homeo_clinical.htm

...there's a claim of one positive study done in 1989 published in the British Medical Journal (no mention of author, volume, publication date, or study title), then even more vague talk about another "study conducted in Britain" and "Other significant positive studies".

There's nothing very impressive here. Given that a lot of studies report positive results given a 95% confidence interval, if you do enough studies one out of 20 will look good by sheer chance, creating opportunities for cherry-picking supporting evidence.

By the way, since it's humans often making the judgment about the health of a horse or other animal, or an adult judging the health of an infant, there can still be a placebo effect of sorts that comes from reporting bias -- which, I will grant you, can be eliminated if a study is truly double-blind.

My skepticism is, as it should be, in line with the extraordinary nature of the claim: the supposed mechanism of homeopathy makes absolutely no sense. If homeopathy were proven true, and proven so 20 years ago, if you believe in that vaguely cited 1989 study, the implications would be so great that even skeptical resistance should have been overcome by now, with practically a whole new generation of fresh new scientists to challenge anyone resisting good evidence because of reluctance to face change.

[AlbertCat]

42. Look it up.

No.

YOU provide the "proof"

I don't believe it for a minute. Nor would any competent vet.

[TrogL]

31. We don't like you spreading disease and putting a strain on the health care system

When you use homeopathy to "treat" a condition then (of course) fail and it turns into a larger problem, then the health care system ends up dealing with it.

So you have a communicable disease, treat it by drinking water that you've touched with a leather strop to make it magically a healing substance, then walk around infecting everybody else, then blame the health care system because everybody's sick.

[Silent3]

2. Oh, you bad skeptic Big Pharma shill, you!

I counter with personal anecdotes, horror stories of western medicine gone wrong, and the evils of Big Pharma profits contrasted with selflessness of the spiritual compassion of my alternative healers!

So there! :)

[ProfessorPlum]

5. K&R this was brilliantly done.

[Liberation Angel]

13. K and unrec so there. This is bogus big pharma propaganda

my guess

[unapatriciated]

15. K and rec so there.

this is not about big pharma. You are free to chose your own health care, I will chose mine.
I am only pissed at one homeopathic "doctor" who last year convinced my son to stop his medication and take his elixir instead (at a Price since my son is on medicare and it didn't cover his elixir).
My son is disabled and in a lot of pain because of his illness and this idiot promised him no pain and a cure. Told him his doctors didn't know what they were doing and his medications did more harm than good.
His cure had only one side effect, near death.
My son went into cardiac arrest at the ripe old age of 30. Thank God for the doctors who saved his life yet once again.

[Liberation Angel]

18. I'm sorry about that and traditional medicine is not all bad by any means

without knowing the particulars I have no way of responding ecept to say i am sorry you had a shitty bunch of doctors or "doctors".

It is possible the medicines your son was on damaged his heart btw so it is difficult to say whether the homeoath was at fault or not from here but I am sure yu know better.

But his "real" doctors may have screwed him up as well dependng on what meds he was on.

Keep an open mind.

Sometimes the prescription meds will make this happen (or going off them precipitously)

maybe it was not his "cure" that did it but his Rxs's. But I am sorry your son had to go through that.

I hope he is doing better now.

Sometimes the thyroid is to blame for heart problems and if not diagnosed (traditional medicine sucks at diagnosing thyroid problems) can lead to heart failure. Neithrr homeopahy nor allopathy would fix that.

[unapatriciated]

19. He has an autoimmune disorder., diagnosed when he was 13.

That deteriorated his muscles before it was diagnosed. The heart is a muscle and was damaged due to his illness, one of his medications was for his heart.
I never said he had "shitty" doctors, he has had two tho. One a homeopathic doctor who convinced my son to stop taking his medications and his first hmo doctor who refused to do a simple blood test on my request .
His "real" doctors at Children's Los Angeles saved his life in 1991 and emt's and an er doctor saved it again in 2008.
I have an open mind and have investigated main stream as well as alternative medicine as a result of my son being diagnosed in 1991. Some herbs do have healing properties, but when it comes to very rare disorders I will trust teaching hospitals to give the best care.

btw Traditional medicine diagnosed his fathers thyroid pretty fast back in the 80's.

[Liberation Angel]

20. I'm sorry for that.

Unless the thyroid is very bad it is often missed.

Check out the Broda Barnes Foundation



Thyroid problems can lead to autoimmune disease I believe and it can be environmental (downwind of a nuke plnt for example). It could have been passed down to your son due to a mutation. Very tough situation.

Hopefully we can all get the health care we need soon - and the tests

[unapatriciated]

29. thanks but no thanks you are not giving me anything I have not already researched.

You keep defending the homeopath doctor that advised my son to stop everything his doctors had prescribed. To me that was not only mal-practice it was criminal. He had only one motivation and that was money. He wanted to sell his little green juice nothing more. Over the last 15 years or so I have met many like him. They mix a little bit of science to lend credibility to their particular miracle juice. Teaching hospitals are where you will find the best care when it comes to rare and life threatening illnesses. Autoimmune disorders are many and there is not just one thing that triggers them. To think that thyroid disorders are the one and only cause shows you have little knowledge of how complected our immune system is.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

30. LOL. Mitchell and Webb are comedians. Is this anti-Nazi Propaganda?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y

[Puzzler]

6. If the super-dilution principle of homeopathy actually worked...

... not only would literally every principle of modern chemistry be wrong, but simple everyday things like tap water, that has trace amounts of chemicals, would instantly poison us.

The homeopathic dilution idea is easily testable, and it doesn't work.


Note: I'm NOT arguing against all alternative treatments/medicines... nor am I trying to defend big pharma.

[Liberation Angel]

12. Homeopathy works on the same principal as vaccines

"like treats like" or

something in minute doses which is like factor which causes the disease or condition.

With my kids we used homeopathic medicine for irritated gums and teething. I have also used it for y kids for bee stings. They work the same way vaccines do: a minute dose of something causes the body to trigger an immune or other response.

To ridicule this principal is ignorance.

From a perspective of something so minute that it literally has no essence in the treatment I suspect fraudulent preparations. However, those who know more will tell you that the "essence" of the substance in what is known as an "etheric" sense permeates the vehicle (water etc) for delivery of the dose. I need to know more in order to argue this part with any integrity. But I do know that it was not the placebo effect that made it work for my children. If medicine does not work they know it.

We used, with great success, a tablet by Hylands called "Calms Forte: which truly worked wonders IMHO.

I believe in the priniple of it as well as the science, just as I understand the principal of like treating like in vaccines.

This sounds like pharmaceutical company bullshit to me.

[Puzzler]

21. Don't but word in my mouth...

"To ridicule this principal is ignorance."


I'm not ridiculing. Show me where I'm ridiculing your argument? I can't stand Big Pharma either.


Secondly, your comparison to vaccines is wrong. Homeopathic dilutions are extreme, vaccine dilutions are not. Vaccines don't work because they only have a tiny amount of the virus! That could still easily infect or kill you.

Thirdly, there has not been one homeopathic medicine that has been proven to work in a properly administered double-blind study.


Note, I'm talking about strict homeopathy here. The homeopathic principle requires extreme dilution. I'm not talking about alternative medicines that may have some medical benefits.

[GaYellowDawg]

24. This is soooooo FOS.

While it's true that you can build a LIMITED immunity to certain toxins over time AS LONG as there's not an allergic response involved, it doesn't work for all toxins, and it definitely does not work for things like heavy metal poisoning. For instance, you will never and can never build up a resistance to tetrodotoxin by taking dilutions of it. And how do you use homeopathic medicine for teething? Give your kids a really diluted tooth? Please.

"Essence" of a substance permeates a vessel in an "etheric" sense? No matter how much you "learn," you will never be able to argue this with integrity because it is bullshit. "Essence" and "etheric" are not terms that are ever unambiguously defined by homeopathic advocates. A solvent somehow mystically takes on properties of a really diluted solute? There is no "science" of homeopathy.

[TrogL]

32. "like treats like" was thrown out after the Dark Ages

Even the alchemists gave up on it.

[Ian David]

39. But Merlin lives BACKWARDS so it's an ADVANCING science! :P n/t

[GaYellowDawg]

10. That is brilliant. Great find!! nt

:rofl: :applause:

[Liberation Angel]

14. This is total bullshyte

pharmaceutical company propaganda


vaccines are known to work and operate on the same principle.

get over it

[GaYellowDawg]

22. Wrong.

Look up what an attenuated virus is and you'll realize you're wrong. Get an education.

[Ian David]

38. Any adult who needs this explained to them is hopeless. n/t

[Ian David]

25. Putting you on ignore, because you live in a strange, alternate universe of wizards and unicorns.

Homeopathy is NOT like a vaccine.

A vaccine actually contains something.

Homeopathy is SAID to contain "the vibrational memory" of something that the multi-billion dollar corporations selling it admit is no longer contained within it.

[Merlot]

17. Traditional medicine hates homeopathy for good reason

"Another danger lurks in not getting proper treatment by a science-trained medical doctor..."

You mean traditional medicine is concerned that it will loose revenue? oh, horrors.

In the mean time, those with out insurance don't have ANY medicine anyhow, at least homeopathy is cheap.

[GaYellowDawg]

23. Well, "it's useless" IS a pretty damn good reason.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Ian David]

26. Putting you on ignore because you want to murder poor people with placebos. n/t

[ProfessorPlum]

27. It's cheap, except when you compare it to the price of tap water

which is what homeopathic medicine is.

[unapatriciated]

33. no it's not.

[Ian David]

36. You would have to drink a body of water three times the size of the Earth to get a single molecule.

Or rather, to have a statistically significant CHANCE of getting a single molecule of the substance whose "vibrational memory" is supposedly magically contained in the water.

[unapatriciated]

45. I meant homeopathy was not cheap. I'm by no means a believer.

see my post up thread. I have had many encounters with homeopathic doctors since the early 90's and none of them have convinced me that they are better than a teaching hospital when it comes to rare or life threatening illnesses.
I agree that they can be very destructive when they advise against a doctors prescribe plan of treatment.

[SidDithers]

34. Brilliant. Thanks for posting...

And I love seeing the woos flock to whine about it :)

See also Homeopathic Suicide Attempt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bg1mSo7JQM

Sid

[Ian David]

35. I think I remember seeing James Randi do this once. n/t

[SidDithers]

37. Yeah, It's probably been done a few times...

'cause it's a simple display, and completely safe :)

One of my favourite posters:


"Homeopathy: Shit and Sugar" :rofl:

Sid

[Liberation Angel]

40. How Homeopathy works (for the flat earthers here)

of course you will never get this because it is obvious that the earth is flat and not round.

Nothing that is not visible exists

d'oh!

I forgot about magnetism and gravity and electromagnetic fields.

air

of course these things are measurable.

But according to this article quantum physics may be the REASON that homeopathic medicine works and that some scientists believe in it.

Be a skeptic of you want, but at your peril.

Skeptincs and undecideds or uninformed should all have a look at this summary of how homeopathy works.

It is not unicorn and merlin science. It is more like quantum physics:


/www.endo-resolved.com/homeopathy-works.html

[AlbertCat]

43. Quantum physics does not give water a memory.

I'm no expert on quantum physics but I do know it's the crutch of much quackery. It's used to muddy the waters...whether that water has a memory or not.

BTW, Arthur drew the sword from the stone with quantum physics.

Your link says "Homeopathic Remedies Work in Spiritual/Energy Plane and Not in Physical Plane" That leaves quantum physic out, y'know. (energy is physical, BTW.)

And it may not be unicorns and Merlin, but it definitely is griffins and Gandolf.

[SidDithers]

44. ...

http://www.remedia.at/homeopathy/Strontium-90-chloratum/a5042.html

Sid