Ady Gil Earthrace from the Ady Gil itself

[1monster]

Run time: 03:21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvR4u1IscdY   Posted on YouTube: January 08, 2010 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: January 08, 2010 By DU Member: 1monster Views on DU: 3549

 
This video speaks for itself.

[madrchsod]

1. what the fuck..is there a serial unrecommender running around du?

looks like they were rammed

[flvegan]

3. There are several pro-whaling posters on DU.

You can find them in many of the other threads on the topic.

[FBaggins]

6. There most certainly are NOT and to imply so is dishonest.

There are multiple "factions" within the environmental movement. By far the larger one could be associated with Greenpeace and similar. There's a small fringe of uber-activists that would consider this group's tactics to be acceptable.

BOTH are anti-whaling. And again, to imply otherwise is dishonest. They simply disagree on tactics.

And Greenpeace is right.

For the record, Paul Watson has previously sided WITH pro-whaling groups when they attacked Greenpeace.

[flvegan]

Greenpeace takes pretty pictures.

Run time: 03:21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvR4u1IscdY   Posted on YouTube: January 08, 2010 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: January 08, 2010 By DU Member: flvegan Views on DU: 3549

 
They've not stopped a whale from being killed. The whalers run from the Sea Shepherd and wave at Greenpeace because they know they aren't going to do shit. They stopped even bothering to show up since SSCS makes them look stupid.

[FBaggins]

11. So claim that they're ineffective... Don't say they're pro-whaling

You would still be wrong, but at least not dishonest.

[flvegan]

12. I never claimed Greenpeace was altogether ineffective.

Greenpeace is a fantastic organization in their own right on many other issues and topics. I admire their Ruckus Society tactics and many victories.

[FBaggins]

39. But they adamately oppose Watson and think...

...that his organization is HURTING the anti-whaling cause. That he's dishonest and criminal.

So associating these positions with people being "pro-whaling" is beyond the pale.

[LeftyMom]

55. Greenpeace staffers in Japan ATE WHALE on purpose.

Greenpeace last month launched an online travelogue -- the Whale-Love Wagon -- of Japan's whaling towns. In one episode, a Spaniard visits a grandmotherly woman's home to eat whale for the first time and politely tells her in Japanese it was delicious.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0214-09.htm

Greenpeace is a fucking joke.

[baldguy]

10. There are many who automatically take the side of the illegal whalers & the ICR

And will do anything the discredit Paul Watson & the Sea Shepherd.

[FBaggins]

13. Nope. There are many who oppose the ridiculous actions of the SSs...

That's not the same thing as taking the side of the whalers.

We both hate 'x.' So you must agree with any action I take in opposition to 'x'." is false logic.

If you shoot Rush Limbaugh am I pro RW radio when I say your actions were wrong?

[baldguy]

16. The Japanese don't think the Sea Shepherd is ridiculous.

Otherwise they wouldn't have attacked them.

[Chan790]

53. No, there are actual posters who argue that whaling should be legal and unrestrained.

That whaling is a legal and legitimate commercial industry.

I'm not going to run around naming posters and calling people out, but there quite a few posters who think that both Greenpeace and SSCS should GTFO of the Antarctic and let the whalers do their jobs in peace. To imply those people are not pro-whaling is disingenuous at best and an outright lie on any reasonable doubt. To imply that they're anti-whaling and disagree on tactics is absurd.

[FBaggins]

2. When is that final collision from? n/t

[sakabatou]

5. I think the collision is when the video stops.

[Bonobo]

7. Yarase. nt

[FBaggins]

8. Nah... it's close, but you can watch the crew movements

and compare them to the other video to see how much time is missing.

[FBaggins]

14. Sorry... I meant the third segment of the video.

The AG collision is shown from two different angles and then there's a different video of the Steve Irwin clearly and intentionally ramming one of the other ships.

I know that didn't happen this week because the Irwin isn't there yet... but I haven't seen that footage before.

[sakabatou]

4. Definitely proof that the Ady Gil was rammed

The fishing vessel could've stopped but NOOOOO....

[Devil_Fish]

30. It's not a matter of "They could have stopped." they diliberatly attacked.

[timefortherevolution]

32. Only a devoted Fox News viewer could dispute that one.

[slackmaster]

9. It shows that Ady Gil was on a safe course that would have taken it astern of the Japanese ship

Right up until about 3:14 at which time Ady Gil was under power and heading directly into the path of the ship.

You can clearly see the starboard side of the Japanese ship until the last several seconds, and the larger ship had bearing drift to the right from the viewer's perspective. That means the vessels would have passed safely unless Ady Gil had powered up and changed course.

Ady Gil had a good two minutes in which it could have and should have steered a bit to the left, but it did not.

Sorry, I'm not buying into the wishful thinking that is so popular on this forum. Whaling sucks, I respect SSCS, but in this case they fucked up. Being politically right doesn't absolve someone of improper operation of a vessel on the high seas.

[baldguy]

15. You're not looking at the video in the OP.

The Ady Gil was not under power and is stopped in the water; the crew's attention is on several other ships in the area. The Shonan Maru should have steered clear of the stationary ship, but instead it's obvious that she intends to attack the Ady Gil by 2:12 - she's deployed her sound & water cannon by then - then she begins her turn into the Ady Gil by 3:10.

There's nothing the Ady Gil could have done to avoid the collision; the Shonan Maru was under power & under total control of her crew the entire time. It's as if I pointed a gun at your head & said "You better move, or you'll be hit by the bullet when it leaves the barrel."

I don't buy the fantastical "explanations" absolving the Japanese whalers - whose entire purpose is illegal - and laying the entire blame on the crew of the Ady Gil, the Sea Shepherd society & Paul Watson.

[slackmaster]

17. No, I completely disagre that Ady Gil was not under power at the beginning of the video

She was idling perhaps, but underway.

There's nothing the Ady Gil could have done to avoid the collision

Yes there is. She could have abided by Rule 7 and steered a wide course around the larger vessel. Instead she did nothing until the last few seconds, at which time she was driven into the path of the approaching vessel.

...laying the entire blame on the crew of the Ady Gil, the Sea Shepherd society & Paul Watson.

I'm not doing anything of the kind. The Japanese vessel could also have steered a wide course around Ady Gil. Both vessels are at fault. They were playing a foolish game of Chicken on the high seas. As often happens in other forms of Chicken, sometimes neither party chickens out in time and a collision occurs.

[baldguy]

18. What did the Shonan Maru do to avoid the collision?

The Ady Gil wasn't moving - she was stopped & didn't lay on any other ship's path. The Shonan Maru changed course{ to intercept & attack them.

[Xipe Totec]

19. Nothing at all

and they were clearly aware of the vessel's presence.

Excellent point.

[FBaggins]

20. That's not correct

The Ady Gil was under way.

[Xipe Totec]

21. What did the Shonan Maru do to avoid the collision?

That's the question.

[FBaggins]

24. Why is that the question?

Both vessels have an obligation to stay clear and the AG is far more nimble.

Also hurting their case is hours of footage showing the fact that only one side regularly seeks out the other and maneuvers dangerously close... Often cutting right under the bows of a moving vessel many times their size... OFTEN misjudging distance and speed and getting dangerously close... Even ramming and boarding. We KNOW that the AG's mission was to seek out and harrass the enemy.

[Xipe Totec]

25. Uh, because it's written plainly on post #18? n/t

[FBaggins]

35. Repeating it doesn't make it relevant

I'm asking why the posted imagines that it's relevant. It's obvious that neither side took appropriate actions to avoid a collision. Both had that obligation.

[Xipe Totec]

36. Obviously, you have a problem with English n/t

[baldguy]

22. This video & all the others show it wasn't - at least up until about 2 sec before they were rammed.

The Ady Gil obviously was trying desperately - and unsuccessfully - to avoid the collision. The Shonan Maru was trying to cause it.

[FBaggins]

23. That isn't what the video shows

The AG is clearly under way. Just take a look at the wake any time the camera is facing aft.

Or just spend some time in a boat in roughy seas. She could not have maintained a constant heading in those seas without some headway.

[Xipe Totec]

26. While blinded by a power hose? n/t

[FBaggins]

33. The Ady Gill is designed to operate UNDER more than 20 feet of water.

The guy at the con wouldn't even be touched by the water cannons.

The kids you see on deck are no more than passengers. It's obvious that they don't know what's going on. If you've watched the show before, this doesn't exactly come as a surprise.

[Mendocino]

50. Are you saying the Ady Gil is a submarine?

[Devil_Fish]

51. She is now. NT

[Dead_Parrot]

52. Ouch lol. nt

[Mendocino]

54. Good one!

I've looked at all the videos multiple times, trying to keep an open mind. So here is my take:

1) Video from the Bob Barker: Notice the reach of the fire hoses, they provide a reference point. At first the hoses aren't coming close to the AG, until the Shonan Maru appears to turn starboard. No wake visible from the AG, SM obviously getting closer.

2)Video from the AG: At first they are under way, then they stop, no wake or just an idle wake. They sit on deck talking and joking. If they intended to ram the SM within moments, would they be under clothed, some with no gloves or hats, casually snapping pictures and taking video? When collision is imminent they react as though they weren't expecting it. They (AG) then accelerated, trying to go starboard, perhaps hoping to get pushed off by the bow wake of the SM or take a glancing blow.

3)I think the SM intended to pass closely but not actually hit them, throw a wake, blast them with the hoses and LRAD. The SM was cresting waves and did not have had a proper view of the AG, plus the spray from the hoses obstructed their sight. However, to pass this close with limited visibility was reckless.

4)There is fault on both sides, but the SM share of blame is greater.

Again this is just how I see it and would appreciate any input or opinions.

:)

[baldguy]

27. If the Ady Gil was under way, then she'd be bobbing up & down over the waves

Like the Shonan Maru is - for which you still haven't offered a speculation about what she could have done to avoid the collision.

[FBaggins]

34. She is... and that would be the case whether under way or not.

She isn't exactly a 100,000 ton vessel.

Why do you need speculation on what COULD have been done? I said both had an obligation to avoid a collision. Neither did.

[slackmaster]

60. FBaggins is exactly correct

Both vessels are at fault for not taking every reasonable step to avoid a collision.

[slackmaster]

59. That is complete nonsense baldguy

The only time you do not bob up and down over waves when you are travelling in exactly the same direction and at the same speed as the waves, and only when just one set of waves is present. On open seas there are usually waves of various sizes coming from various different directions. Vessels that are stationary relative to a buoy or land mass or the center of the galaxy bob up and down with waves all the time.

You can't tell from a video taken from Ady Gil whether or not Ady Gil is bobbing and to way extent, because the camera bobs with the vessel.

[slackmaster]

43. It is not possible to tell from this video that Shonan Maru was changing course

The apparent turn of Shonan Maru could just as easily have been caused by Ady Gil moving into her path, or a combination of both motions.

Relative bearings and bearing drift. Read up on them.

[baldguy]

46. All of the videos - incl from the Shonan Maru - show the Ady Gil stationary.

We have three videos of the incident:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x420649
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x421007

From the Shonan Maru:

Shows the Ady Gil stationary in the water off to starboard, then the Shonan Maru attacking & ramming the Ady Gil.

From the Steve Irwin

Shows the apparent course change of the Shonan Maru which is not accompanied by a similar apparent course change in the Ady Gil. If both the Ady Gil and the Shonan Maru were moving, they would both move left-to-right. They don't. The video shows the Ady Gil moving from right-to-left, but the bow is facing to the right. The Ady Gil is not moving in reverse; the Steve Irwin itself is moving.

This shows conclusively that the Shonan Maru altered her real course.

From the Ady Gil:

Shows the Ady Gil at idle; shows the Steve Irwin moving (right-to-left); shows the Shonan Maru moving (left-to-right). Since the Ady Gil is not moving, and since the Shonan Maru takes actions showing that she sees the Ady Gil (sound & water canons), it's completely up to the Shonan Maru to avoid the stationary ship, the Ady Gil.


If both ships continued on the courses & speeds shown at the beginning of the encounter, nothing would have happened. Instead the Shonan Maru - under power - with deliberation altered her real course and subsequently rammed the stationary Ady Gil. This is the only conclusion that can be made.


Why did the Shonan Maru change her course?
What did she do to avoid the collision?

[slackmaster]

58. It's impossible to determine that Ady Gil was stationary in any of the videos - Here's why

None of the videos include a reference object that is definitively known to be stationary, e.g. a buoy or a landmark. All motion in the videos is relative to their respective cameras, which are probably all in motion. The only potential reference points are other vessels and wind waves, all of which are probably in motion themselves.

Why did the Shonan Maru change her course?
What did she do to avoid the collision?

I suspect that her apparent turn to the right a few seconds before the collision was a last-ditch effort to avoid passing ahead of Ady Gil. If that is the case, it was successful since the larger vessel did NOT pass ahead of Ady Gil.

IMO both vessels are guilty of not using all available means to reduce the probability of a collision. Rule 7. Look it up.

[1monster]

28. Apparently, a maritime expert disagrees with you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9zuJUC-hvg

[Point_n_click]

29. Both vessels underway at some fault.

I've watched a couple different vids of the incident. In all of them if you look carefully you can see churned water and a small wake behind the Ady Gil. However, they definitely were rammed on purpose by the whaling vessel.

The Whaling vessel chose to activate the sonic device and water cannons and then continue to approach the Ady Gil which did nothing to avoid an obviously hostile approaching ship. The whaling ship then did turn into the Ady Gil.

Frankly, while the Sea Shepard group do act a bit reckless, this time I fault the whaling ship's captain and crew for a blatantly hostile action they easily could have avoided. This time lives were at stake. Someone could have been killed.

It won't surprise me now if this continues to escalate beyond a public relations battle into more violent measures by both sides.

[FBaggins]

37. He contradicts himself

He says that the AG is the stand-on vessel and entitled to maintain course and speed.

First of all... she DIDN'T
Second, that doesn't remove her obligation to stay clear.
Third, you can't ignore the fact that she was out there intentionally to harass the other vessel and can't deny it. She's rigged with that prop-fouling gear and that was her mission. How well do think it would go in court when they're asked what they were going to do?

"Well your honor... our mission was to get in front of the whaler, cut across her bow too close for her to avoid our weapon, and then deploy equipment that would damage her."

Yeah... that will go over well. :-)

[baldguy]

40. Lies are still lies, no matter how often you repeat them.

The fact is the Ady Gil was at idle & stationary and the Shonan Maru was under power. If both ships maintained their respective course & speed then nothing would have happened. But, while the Ady Gil did, the Shonan Maru did not. Instead she altered her course to intercept & attack the Ady Gil.

Why did the Shonan Maru alter her course? What did the Shonan Maru do to avoid the collision?

Still waiting.

[FBaggins]

42. Then why repeat them?

She was NOT at idle... nor was she stationary. She also did NOT maintain her course and speed. As is quite clear in the earlier videos.

What did the Shonan Maru do to avoid the collision


I know that they would love to pretend that it's an isolated incident, but Watson's team can't GET close enough to throw their projectiles and stay within the rules of the road... they don't care. They violate them almost without ceasing.If these two had never seen each other before that's a question that could be asked, but THERE IS NO "right" course when these clowns are around. They'll dodge right under the bow at any time without warning.

You can pretend to be "waiting", but the answer has been given. NEITHER vessel did anything to avoid a collision.

Hint... that's why one of them is at the bottom of the sea.

[baldguy]

44. Pee Wee Herman did it better.

And so did Karl Rove. Since that's the way you're going, he's more of a role model for you.

[FBaggins]

45. LoL! Gotta get a kick out of

the folks that resort to name calling.

Think everyone assumes that they have a really compelling debate point... but just elect not to use it?

Yeah... me too. :)

[timefortherevolution]

31. The Maru veered into the AG. No doubt. And, who cares about their tactics,

looking away and doing nothing is obscene. Its a crime.

Watch how these beautiful creatures are killed. Agonizingly painful deaths.

I don't give a fuck about the Sea Shepherd's tactics.

I attended a funeral the other day. All pomp and circumstance. Yet we turn around
and savage an animal this way??!!

Oh Right. We're so much better than all other species!

[grahampuba]

38. unbelievable..

How daft do you have to be after watching this latest video from the deck of the Ady Gil, to persist that it was anything other than 100% maneuvering by the Shonan Maru.

Id like to hear from a few of the others that insisted that this was 'deliberate acceleration' on the part of SSCS.

another 5-10' to the starboard by the Shonan Maru and that could have easily been fatal for the entire crew of the Ady Gil.

[Devil_Fish]

41. may have easily been their intent. NT

[Hassin Bin Sober]

56. I can't believe people are still blaming the AG.

Un-fucking-believable.

Of course, it's the same handful of trollish shit stirring ass-clowns.

[slackmaster]

61. Both vessels are at fault for failing to take pro-active measures to avoid a collision

That is very clear from the videos.

When you are in a boat at sea, any sane sailor gives all other vessels a wide berth. That did not happen in this incident. Either one could have prevented the collision, but neither did.

It's called a game of Chicken, and it's a juvenile and irresponsible thing to do at sea.

[Larkspur]

62. No, the Japanese ship is clearly at fault and this video proves that the Japanese whaling vessel

intentionally attacked the Ady Gil. The AG was idling in the water far away from the Japanese whaling vessel, which turned and directly aimed to take the ship out of action. The Japanese were successfuly this time, but the Bob Barker is far bigger than the Ady Gil and when the Steve Irwin joins up with the Bob Barker, Sea Shepherd will be in good position to stop the whalers.

[slackmaster]

63. All motion is relative, Einstein

...taught us that almost 100 years ago.

You cannot say that Ady Gil was idling because you have no fixed frame of reference against which to judge its speed or direction.

But that is irrelevant. A ship at sea that is in motion is "underway" regardless of its velocity. If it's not anchored or moored, it's underway even if engines are off and it is adrift. A vessel that is underway is obligated to actively avoid potential collisions with other vessels.

The videos ALL show two vessels that are clearly on a potential collision course. Both had ample time to react, and neither one did anything about it until it was too late.

[Larkspur]

64. Bullcrap!

The video clearly shows the Japanese whaler, who was far away from the Ady Gil veer right and aim towards the Ady Gil.

The video also shows that the Gil was idling otherwise we'd see them moving in relation to the horizon. Idling on the see does not mean "Dead stop". The winds and currents would still move the ship and yes, the engines are on. That's what idling means -- engines on but not moving the ship forward. Even though the engines are on, the winds and currents will still buffet and move the Gil.

I was not a sailor but I was a private pilot, so I know about winds affecting a craft. Ships have to also contend with water currents as well as winds.

[slackmaster]

65. Both vessels were underway. Both vessels are obligated to take action to avoid a collision.

The video also shows that the Gil was idling otherwise we'd see them moving in relation to the horizon.

That is nonsense as well as being irrelevant to determining who was at fault for the collision. The horizon is always at a fixed elevation from any particular perspective, but it is not a fixed location that can be used as a frame of reference to determine horizontal motion.

The winds and currents would still move the ship and yes, the engines are on. That's what idling means -- engines on but not moving the ship forward. Even though the engines are on, the winds and currents will still buffet and move the Gil.

So by your own admission Ady Gil was underway for the entire duration of the video.

There is no such thing as sitting still and minding your own business on the water. If you are not moored or in distress, you are underway and fully obligated to abide by all of the rules. The only way that AG's speed might factor into the inquest is whether or not she was maintaining a safe speed. Too slow is just as bad as too fast.

Rule 6

Safe Speed

Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions....

Read and learn:

http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/boating/colregs.html

[Goldstein1984]

47. I don't care who likes or doesn't like Paul Watson's tactics

Or how they drone on and on about his ego and his need for publicity.

Watson and his crew are down there doing what is necessary to reduce the number of whales being killed and bring attention to a barbaric (No, I have no problem calling people who kill whales barbarians) and anachronistic practice. They have all of the support that I can give them to continue doing exactly what they are doing, and they have my blessing to go further if it saves more whales.

[FBaggins]

48. "Watson and his crew are down there doing what is necessary"

They really aren't. Their actions only solidify nationalistic japanese public opinion against them... supporting an industry while Greenpeace had spent years turning public opinion against the whalers.

Yep... what the whalers are doing is barbaric... but does not get "attention" drawn when humans are putting other humans' (even barbaric ones) lives in danger intentionally.

blessing to go further if it saves more whales.

Haven't seen any evidence that they've saved a single whale. I've seen Watson's crew try to convince themselves of it in multiple episodes, but I haven't seen anything but their claims... which can only be based on assumptions/guesses.

[Goldstein1984]

49. We're going to have to disagree on this one.

I believe I see evidence that they're having an impact.

Financial support for their organization is up. The number of people with a public persona is up. Public awareness is up.

This is really just a guerrilla was. Those opposed to guerrilla tactics always take offense at guerrilla war.

I'm content to let time determine whether or not they are effective.

[Canuckistanian]

57. I don't see how anyone could deny that this was an intentional ramming

The whaler was far in the distance then suddenly appeared at flanking speed, sirens blazing and water cannon firing. Andthe TURNED towards the Ady Gil. A larger vessel is ALWAYS supposed to yield to a smaller one.

Also, for a crew about to "deliberately scuttle their own ship", they seem awfully cheerful and triumphant about their days' achievements.

[slackmaster]

66. I hope you are kidding, Canuckistanian

A larger vessel is ALWAYS supposed to yield to a smaller one.

Um, no.

http://boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/boating/colregs.html