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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:28 AM
Original message
Michael Moore Goes Head to Head with Stephen Colbert
 
Run time: 07:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwEfaxM1mVU
 
Posted on YouTube: July 20, 2007
By YouTube Member:
Views on YouTube: 0
 
Posted on DU: July 22, 2007
By DU Member: DeepModem Mom
Views on DU: 5761
 
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maseman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. This was beautiful
Colbert did a GREAT job with this...
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. I love those guys.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. CNN & Gupta owned by big Pharma
:kick: with my restless leg syndromed donkey
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nadine_mn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Gupta clearly owned by
Crest whitening strips
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Not Sure Donating Member (334 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Gupta = Bollywood version of Frank "Ponch" Poncherello from CHiPs (n/t)
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. I love Stephen Colbert
He is a good or a pretty good facsimile of same.
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. Is there a difference between Non-profit health care and Universal Health care?
They are 2 different issues.

Non-profit health care allows for HMO's to be less concerned about profits; and more concerned with helping the patient obtain his/her medical care.

Universal Health care would increase the number of patients, waiting room times; but would also increase the customer base for the HMO companies.

In massachusetts, there is universal health care, but for-profit HMO's are still allowed to operate. Thereby, patients could still be denied operations in this model.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Massachusetts is NOT a good example.
Massachusetts has done what the Governator wants to do.... whatever it takes to keep insurance companies in business.

What Moore showcased by going to France, Canada and Britain is SINGLE PAYER. Getting the companies out of the equation.

"Universal Health care would increase the number of patients, waiting room times;"

That is the corporate talking point. Careful about continuuing to promote this propaganda.
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. haven't watched it yet, waiting to netflix it
i don't like going to movie theaters. But isn't the French system going bankrupt? or is that inaccurate?

Obviously, I think the HMO should be non-profit instead of for-profit.

I just don't know how financially feasible a universal/single-payer system can be. But we're not afraid of deficit-spending, so it could work.

But you're saying that more patients, won't mean more waiting room times?

I just don't think there is any 'perfect' system where everyone gets the care they need. Someone's always going to get shafted.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. There's nothing about Massachusetts in the movie, so seeing the movie isn't going to make that clear
"I just don't know how financially feasible a universal/single-payer system can be. "

So you like what we have now?

I guess, if this is the majority attitude, we'll just continue to suffer until the majority are dying from lack of health care.
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. isn't that sort of the point of capitalism
while sad and inhumane, there is an ironic and depressing "survival of the fittest" if the majority die from lack of health care; but then if there were less demand, then prices would drop.

I have health care from my company, but i don't know how good it is since i haven't needed anything major. Are England, France, Taiwan programs feasible? I'm not opposed to them if it works.

I still think that the "source" of the problem is the "For-profit model" which makes health care driven by stockholders instead of the patients.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Since I'm one of the people left out and will likely die from lack of care,
and it doesn't seem to matter to you, I have nothing further to discuss.
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. most businesses provide health care, thats part of the reason
why i have a job. isn't that why companies provide health care because they want their employees to be productive? And part of the incentive of getting married is joining your spouses health care. So there are ways to obtain health care, whether it is good or not.

but there are ways to obtain health care outside of marriage or job, as well. But those can be expensive.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Yes, I get that your interests are all that's important to you.
I got that loud and clear.

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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
51. Are you self-employed or unemployed
or do you work at Walmart?
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. Most BIG businesses may provide health care
I believe they provided it originally to be competitive, as an incentive to get good employees. It has gotten very expensive for them, and the costs to employees is going up, while the benefits are going down.

You are lucky - I'm lucky, too - my husband gets it through his job.

A lot of average people WITH jobs don't get it from their employer. If you can afford it, I think it costs between 4-600 monthly to buy your own. My brother & his wife pay around 800 a month - they're both self-employed, and they need it because they have children.

My niece is a waitress - she doesn't get it, no matter how many hours she works. I'm pretty sure most Walmart employees don't get insurance. So, with a job, they make too much money to get medicaid but couldn't possibly afford insurance.

One illness can ruin them for life, financially. Those are some of the people Michael Moore is talking about. Everyone should be able to afford health insurance, not just the upper class.

I would be glad to wait in longer lines, or wait longer for appointments (although I do think those are right wing talking points), if this country provided health insurance to ALL of its citizens.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
42. Most Businesses in this country
CAN'T AFFORD TO PROVIDE HEALTH CARE for their employees or, if they do, it's substandard, doesn't cover everything and DOESN'T cover "pre-existing conditions"...

The largest corporation on Earth, wal-mart doesn't provide health care to most of its employees...they DO council them about how to get food stamps and medicaid payments though.

Companies started providing health INSURANCE (NOT CARE, INSURANCE) after WW II in order to avoid pay raises...instead of raises they "gave" health insurance and took mighty fine tax deductions doing it. Most companies don't really give a shit nor do they know anything about how to help employees be more productive...

"but there are ways to obtain health care outside of marriage or job, as well. But those can be expensive."

I'm assuming you mean well and really want information but please do some more study on this subject. I'm afraid you've bought the health insurance mafia and big pharma's lies hook, line and sinker...

Why should ANYONE have to be a slave to a job just to get "health insurance"??? Those two items should be entirely unlinked...
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. So did Health Insurance not exist before WW2?
I thought thats why Businesses created Health Insurance, so they could keep their workers healthy and happy; and avoid the pay raises.

I don't think there will be change unless there is lobbyist muscle behind the changes. On one side you have the HMO and the Pharma; but like you said Big Business doesn't want to pay for Health care anymore, so they want to pass the expenses onto the workers/consumers.

So, I'll side with Big business for now - but that will also be creating another "Govt Program" and more "Govt Activism" which many conservatives seem to despise. So in a bizzare way, Big Business actually wants Govt Intervention!

I still think that the "for-profit HMO" is the greater concern. On the flip side, if we eradicate Health Insurance, businesses don't provide it and no one buys it, then that would drive the HMO's out of business. Thats how it was before WW2.

Of Course, the proper solution would be to have a "non-profit/universal system." The universal requirement would guarantee income for the HMO's. But the non-profit would guarantee that patients get treatment instead of denials.

However, in Mass there is a universal requirement, but many people have chosen not to enroll - so this would deny their free-enterprise rights as consumers. They say that the enrollments aren't high enough to meet the threshold for the state-wide program.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. The massachusetts system
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 07:40 PM by ProudDad
like the groppensteroidenfuhrer's "ideas" in California are the WRONG "solution"...

I don't know about MASS., haven't studied it enough but the groppensteroidenfuhrer wants to CRIMINALIZE anyone who cannot afford to buy a "health insurance policy".

In addition, these "policies" are NOT HEALTH CARE -- just a bunch of weasel words written by lawyers to deny people the health care they need.

I'm more than a little amazed that Big Business isn't pounding on every damn congresscritter's table demanding that they pass HR676 -- their profit margins would go through the roof once it was the law of the land...

But, I guess like most republican voters, they are so fucking ignorant they don't even know where their own interests lie...

or they're so afraid of looking "socialist" that they'll vote against their own best interests...


The MARKET doesn't belong in health care any more than they belong in Fire Fighting or Policing... Are we a society or a jungle???


On Edit: If you've seen SiCKO you'll know that the HMOs were enabled in the nixon years because he loved the idea of increasing profits by denying care. They are LOUSY models for health care.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. Some idiots can't even think of HEALTH CARE---- The only words out of their mouths is HMO
Talk about brain washed.

"I just had my brain washed, and now I can't do a thing with it."

I'm completely behind everything you've said.

I'm just fed up with stupidity.

I think this country has to completely go down.... take Impeachment out of the damned Constitution because people are too fearful to do what's right. Take away all health care because we're too selfish to care about anyone else. Take out ANYTHHING close to socialism.. fire protection, police protection, libraries, schools, roads, etc., and let libertarianism rule until we have complete chaos. Let the fuckers bomb Iran and finish taking away all our legal protections.

In short, let's have that jungle you mentioned. Let's just sink down in it completely, instead of boiling slowly.

I think that's the only thing that will wake people up. Let them suffer with the consequences of their fear and stupidity and selfishness.

Let the rest of the world put us out of our misery.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I'm one of those people too.
No job, no insurance, can't get a job due to age discrimination and too much education. They don't care if an idiot with a subnormal IQ lives because he has a job and insurance, and somebody like me, who is educated(doctorate) and highly creative as well, dies.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. It's been an eye-opener to me that "liberals" and "christians" really aren't moved
anymore, even by death.

DU has been a real education to me in that respect.

For what it's worth to you, *I* care. Not because of your doctorate, or because of your creativity.... I care because you are a human being, and live in the richest country in the world, and deserve to be treated with respect, concern, and dignity.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Jesus, Bobbolink....Are You Fucking CHANNELING ME??
We could not possibly agree more if we tried!!
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
54. Do churches have HMO programs?
I would think the pastor subscribes to a HMO and maybe he would let parishoners join the program?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. You really don't get it, do you?
It's ocurring to me that you really DON"T GET IT.
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. The thing is HMO reform won't occur unless it is clearly
beneficial to everyone. The Fire station and Police station help everyone and thats why we pay taxes for them.

For those people already with Health Care - "they already have it" so how is their life improved if there is universal health care.

There is the business/employer who will benefit from universal health care because their Employee Benefits plans will be cheaper.

My point is that you can't just convince everyone because "its the right thing or its good-will"

In fact, I may despise my neighbor(s) and others as well, but I will still pay taxes for the Fire Dept and the Police Dept, because that will benefit me as well.

For Universal health coverage to pass, there needs to be a Monetary benefit for everyone. In this case, cheaper plans for individuals and Employers.

But don't tell me I "need" to pay for your health care because of "good-will". If you were really dying or needed money, I would gladly donate. But if a person chose to be overweight, take drugs and alcohol, why would I have the "good-will" to pass universal health care?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Silly.
To borrow a phrase from H2OMan.

:silly:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Join The Club
I too, cannot get a job...because of discrimination. But discrimination of a different kind...the kind the Christian Right cheers about and thinks is a great thing.

Which is why I am going to school to start my own business. I'll pay more for health insurance, and I'll pay double taxes, but that's okay, because corporate America doesn't deserve me.

They had their chance. They decided it would be more fun to discriminate and watch me suffer, and my skills go to waste while a high-school dropout whose brain was half fried on dope could get a job...all because he wasn't an "undesireable" to the Christian Right.
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
55. Some of my 'friends' have tried to get me into Amway
but i doubt they have health insurance. Also, it seems like a rip-off. too much time/money invested and little in return if you don't find more suckers
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
53. You could get membership in the director's guild, haha
as a creative individual. Can you get insurance through your spouse?

I think in a worse case scenario, I would work at McD's or the mall for health insurance.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-07 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. I'm not a director.
And as far as I know I'm not eligible for SAG or AFTRA.

No I can't get insurance thru my spouse.

He's not my spouse, but he got canned from his job in May of last year, due to major head-slicing at the med school he worked at. It was a shitty job and killing him anyway.

I had insurance through him and now neither of us has it. I'm the one that has the chronic stuff I have to take pills for. Fortunately most of them are generic.

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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Spot On
You just said exactly what I'd wanted to say in my previous posting about the guy who said someone will always get shafted.

Thank you for saying in a way I could not think of how to phrase it. Thank you for saying exactly what those guy's words made ME feel.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. We're all in this together, Pocono! Unfortunately, some don't realize that.
Sometimes you hafta say what's in your heart.

I have a feeling, not only DU, but the whole DEM party need to hear what you are thinking!

:hi: :pals: :hi:
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Thanks.
And I believe more people, including DU...need to hear what YOU are saying. You said it in a manner I could not. when I read those words, "someone will always get shafted" I saw RED!! It was all I could do to contain myself. In the end, I elected not to post what I had been going to say, because it was not constructive, and, in fact, not even appropriate to this forum. suffice to say I had some very uncivilized comments to say....but I held back, because I wish to be taken seriously here...and so I clamped down on what I wanted to say. But then, here you come and say the very things I had wanted to say...but you said them much nicer than I could have. I tell you, those words made me absolutely LIVID!!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. heh... It's not often I get accused of being "nice".
~~guffaw~~

Yes, we must also be peace-makers, and express our anger at the words, rather than the person. But, so many things deserve anger!

Where would we be today without the righteous anger of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Bobby Kennedy???

I keep wondering where the outrage is!

I think that also keeps the anger of us poor folk at a higher pitch.... we don't see the anger expressed where it should be expressed by multitudes!

Sometimes it stinks to have to be civilized. ~~gigglesnort~~

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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Too True.
sometimes it DOES stink to be civilized.

but again...you said what I'd wanted to say...and you said it far nicer than I was going to. Believe me when I tell you I had some VERY uncivilized comments for the one who said that "someone would always get shafted." you CALMLY said what I was going to say in a rage! It's not often something gets my blood to boiling, but that did it.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Our anger is important. To be honest, I'm ANGRY that poor folks aren't ANGRY enough!
I once said to a clergy person that the reason he and others could ignore us poor folk was because we ALLOW them to ignore us!

We haven't disrupted their daily lives.

We have't made them uncomfortable.

We haven't nailed our 95 complaints to their church doors.

In short, we've been waaaay too nice.

Sometimes I think Martin Luther King is looking down on us and saying, "When are you going to get ON with it?!"

Recently I've been the grateful recipient of a lot of understanding, and a lot of kind support. It has transformed my anger into a firm resolve, so maybe that's what you're seeing. A lot of the times our anger is white-hot because we haven't received the support and kindness we need in order to believe in ourselves.

I'm going to ask a nosy question, which, of course you needed answer if you don't wish to. I only ask it because I don't want to suggest a good book to you if it would be offensive. Soooo... here goes....Are you a person of faith, or just not offended by such? If so, I would like to suggest a book to you... "Community and Growth", by a French Canadian named Jean Vanier. I was so touched by this book 20 years ago, and recently went through it again. He says so much that applies to us, and is so understanding.

I'm glad you're here!

:hi:
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. Thanks.
I'm a Unitarian Universalist...and a self-described Jesusian. what this basically means is that I try, to the best of my ability, to follow the teachings of Jesus, and to follow the example he set before us. I believe if more people actually did this, the world would be a much nicer place.

Alas, too many people have God and Jesus in their heads...but not in their hearts. The greatest distance in the world is the distance between the head and the heart.

Incidentally, I do not believe in the miracles, nor am I convinced of Jesus' Divinity...or even the existence of a Divine Being at all. Nor am I closed to the possibility.

but I'm very different from those who call themselves Christians, hence my adoption of the label "Jesusian." A fellow parishioner at my UU Fellowship actually first described himself to me as a "Jesusian" and I liked that...and since we shared almost identical beliefs, I took up the Jesusian label.

In fact, I am even giving a service at my church in three weeks (we have only a part-time minister who takes off in the summer, as we cannot afford a full-time minister, and summer services are usually led by members of the laity) entitled "Losing My Religion - A Journey From Religion to Faith" and it is about my own spiritual journey, and my disillusionment with religion, and the reasons for it...and my eventual coming to faith...without religion.

And it outlines the differences between faith and religion. And it makes a case for everyone else to lose their religion, too...and, instead...to find faith.

Basically, my argument is that religion is all in the head. Faith is in the heart.

Make what you will of that, but certainly you won't offend me. Reasonable people who do not shove their Bibles down other peoples throats never offend me by asking if I might be interested in a particular book which may have spiritual overtones. It is all a part of my own spiritual journey to seek out as many sources of spirituality as I can find...and from many different sources and perspectives.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. You and I are about on the same page where beliefs are concerned.
Thank you for detailing where you're coming from.

I hope you are able to find the book I mentioed. There is a beautiful statement of his on page 283. Jean Vanier and Jim Wallis, from two different points of view, both understand poverty.

The power went out, so I lost the whole reply I had here, and will settle for this for now.

Danged electrical contraptions! :)
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
39. Hey, I saw red too, and I have insurance.
I've only been without it for brief periods of time. Thing is I know lots of other people who don't. Like my daughter, who was working full-time but didn't have insurance, who passed out on a train in NYC and had to be taken by ambulance to the hospital. Luckily, it was only dehydration, but it was a big bill.

I know a guy who had two heart attacks and no insurance, but luckily could get medicaid. I know people of all ages who work and don't have insurance, and some people who were better off when they weren't working because they qualified for state aid. I have a brother and sister in law who pay a ton of money a month for insurance they can't really afford. My son recently got his masters, is having trouble finding a job - no insurance there.

I'm unable to work, except for a couple of things I do from home - if anything happens to my husband, I'm screwed.

The bottom line to me is that in this country, insurance shouldn't be an "extra" - everyone should have it, just like in Canada, which is 20 minutes from my house. They tell me there aren't long lines, the doctors are fine, and they basically take insurance for granted. We should be able to do that too.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. Glad To See I'm Not The Only One Paying Attention!!
Most of us are a paycheck away from bankruptcy...a loss of job and an emergency medical treatment away from being out on the streets ourselves. In the supposedly greatest country on Earth...this should not be happening.

Healthcare should be a fucking RIGHT...not a privilege!
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. "Healthcare should be a fucking RIGHT...not a privilege!"
Or at least in the same category as police and fire protection!

Some of these countries have the right to health care written in their constitutions!
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. In Mass there is now universal health care and there
will be another program in Cali. I think this will be more of a state issue before it becomes national. I think some states can fund it, but others don't want to. I think that America's traditional free-market system and pioneer spirit detached from European influence has made us more individual oriented and less reliant on govt interference. Certainly Canada has a smaller population and what is holding the US back from instituting changes is the vast size of the population and getting consesus on the issue.

Also, if we offer immigration amnesty, it would increase the Legal Tax-Paying population. This should be of greater importance since we need to Fund Universal health care before implementing it.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Actually
there's plenty enough money sloshing through the existing system to fund health care for everyone at the highest level on the face of the Earth...

The problem is the system which supports the for-profit insurance mafia and the pirates at big pharma.

We're already paying a very HEAVY tax for health care that a VERY large group of us aren't getting.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Yeah, But Here's The Thing....
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 10:37 PM by PoconoPragmatist
THEY DON'T CALL IT A TAX!!

Tax is a dirty word. There's a lot of numbskulls out there that would rather pay $30,000 to a private company to get something for THEMSELVES, AND THEMSELVES ALONE...than pay $10,000 in TAX to the government so that EVERYONE - INCLUDING THEMSELVES - can have it.

It's all a part of what I like to call the "I Got Mine, Fuck You" attitude that seems so prevalent in the US.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. You've got that right!
That's the biggest battle.

There's a battle between the forces of good; of community, of "we're all in this together" vs. the forces of evil; the greedy, the selfish, the "I've got mine, Jack. Now, Fuck You!" bunch.

There are a few of the forces of good in the Democratic Party. There may be one or two in the republican party but I doubt that any are holding office.

Unfortunately all of the republican officeholders and a majority of the Dem officeholders seem to be among the forces of evil.

But that's been the real battle between good and evil for all of human history...
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Exactly
Capitalism, by it's very nature, creates preventable deprivations. Anything is better than what we currently have, because, as you accurately point out...healthcare is currently driven for the interest of stockholders...not patients.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
41. I wonder if you understand what you've just said...
"isn't that sort of the point of capitalism...while sad and inhumane, there is an ironic and depressing "survival of the fittest" if the majority die from lack of health care; but then if there were less demand, then prices would drop."

"I still think that the "source" of the problem is the "For-profit model" <--- Uh, that's capitalism...profit ubber alles.

Single-Payer, Universal health care takes the fucking capitalists OUT OF THE EQUATION of who decides who gets what care...

capitalism is highly inappropriate in many areas of human endeavor...especially when human well-being and survival are concerned...
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. Too True, ProudDad!!
As I pointed out...Capitalism, by it's very design...artificially creates unnecessary, and preventable, deprivations.
There ought be no such thing as DEPRIVATION where life and death are concerned. Basic survival necessities (food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and education) should NEVER be subjected to capitalism...as that system necessarily creates deprivations.

Think about it....how does one control prices...amke them go up?? by limiting supply. Thus...those who can pay the most recieve...those at the bottom are deprived. That's supply and demand...and that is capitalism. When human survival necessities are the subject, capitalism should be out of the equation. Period.
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jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. I recently watched a special about Atlantis
and some people believe the South American civilizations were the source of the story. Primarily because those people had lots of gold that matched the story.

But it makes me think that civilizations survive and advance when necessities are met - food, water, shelter, health care.

While they were not technologically as advanced as us, there society was just as functioning as ours today.

Capitalism in some ways is a luxury - whereby we can use our education and wits to create wealth for ourselves. But at the same time, we may be hurting the community around us. Yet, it facilitates an individualism and selfish motives.

I think Health Care needs to be implemented state by state before it will be nationally. Like Founders intended, the States will pave the way for national movements.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
47. Michael Moore made the point that capitalism in health care is about as functional
Edited on Mon Jul-23-07 05:18 AM by diane in sf
as capitalism in fire-fighting or policing. It isn't done because it is unworkable. So we are paying much more than the Canadians or French or Brits for our health care and getting much less. We live under the constant threat of bankruptcy and premature death.

Single payer systems are what civilized industrial countries have because when you take the layer of profit making out of providing health care that is what maximizes everyone's health and is cheapest.

Mandatory insurance purchase as in Massachusetts is nuts because it overlooks the fact that people don't have health insurance because it is insanely expensive and unaffordable--not because they refuse to buy it. When I hit forty I had to drop my health insurance because the cost doubled even though nothing about my health had changed. Fortunately I stayed pretty healthy and I live in San Francisco where we have somewhat socialized medicine. So when it looked like I had problems and my income was low and I was uninsured, the city picked up most of the tab. The care was good and the doctors were excellent.

15 years later, just six months ago, I finally got Kaiser thru where I work and as far as what I can tell, the main advantage over city care seems to be not having to wait an hour to get into your appointment once you've made it.
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Someone's always going to get shafted
Doesn't have to be that way.
I'll refrain from the rest of what I wanted to say, because it will detract from my main point. Sometimes, some people get me SO angry.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. You might want to reply to this thread, also:
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1404879&mesg_id=1404879

Some people can't POSSIBLY get it.

Sad.

I understand and SHARE your anger. :hi:
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
40. "Someone's always going to get shafted"
Only if Health Care is considered a privilege and profit center.

If it's considered a right, there's very little likelihood of the kind of shafting that goes on routinely in the greedy, selfish U.S. of A.

Of course, no system is perfect but some are a HELL of a lot closer than others. The abomination called "health care" in the U.S. doesn't even come close...in fact, it comes in 37th...

As for financially feasible, single-payer UNIVERSAL health care in this country would cost considerably less than the current for-profit health care rationed to those who can PAY.

See the movie!!! It's much more fun in the theater -- you'll be in a group of people who will very soon be like minded...

Check it out: HR 676 -- http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_health_care.htm
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. Brilliant!
Both of them.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. Video no longer available?
:(
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
36. self-delete -- mispost
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 11:02 PM by DeepModem Mom
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. The video is available at RawStory
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Thank you mzmilly. nt
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. Thank you! nt
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
10. Neat-I enjoyed that one last week.nt
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SleeplessinSoCal Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. Colbert Report Video Link
Edited on Sun Jul-22-07 05:36 PM by SleeplessinSoCal
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PoconoPragmatist Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. This Video Is No Longer Available
That's what I get when I click on this one. What did Mike say that was so explosive that they had to gag him?
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Sorry -- see upthread for alternate links to the video.
This often happens on YouTube; after a period of time, the video is pulled by its source.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
46. k+r
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-07 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
50. It's available on the Comedy Central site (n/t)
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rabidchickens Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
68. alt. link here
http://www.ifilm.com/video/2876752?ns=1

another alternative link not sure if it was posted
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Cybergata Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Thank You!
I've been searching forever for this. Poor Michael was having a hard time not cracking up the entire interview. Two very intelligent and humors gentlemen!
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perrrfection Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
69. We like Moore!
Way to go Mike!
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