The Solar Bus Goes To Washington

[garybeck]

Run time: 12:24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFQOPKOZCvo   Posted on YouTube: March 03, 2010 By YouTube Member: solarbus Views on YouTube: 149   Posted on DU: March 04, 2010 By DU Member: garybeck Views on DU: 805

 
On 10/24/09, rallies were held all over the world to call for climate change legislation. Organized by Bill McKibben and 350.org, it has been called "the most widespread day of political action in the planet's history," with more than 5200 events in 181 countries.

In Washington DC, a rally was held in Malcom X park, followed by a march to the Whitehouse.

The Solar Bus was invited to transport a bunch of college students to the rally and to lead the march.

Powered by pure vegetable oil, we drove from Vermont down to DC for the event.

It poured rain but that didn't stop the huge group of people from rallying and marching to the Whitehouse to have our voices heard.

This video chronicles the trip.

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1. If it runs on vegetable oil its not really a solar bus, is it?

What do those solar panels actually do?

[garybeck]

2. Actually yes it is a solar bus.

To answer your questions:

1) First consider that the bookmobile doesn't run on books, does it? The Solar Bus is an educational project that teaches people about solar energy. But to directly respond to your issue, Vegetable oil is indeed a form of solar energy. The chemical bonds in the vegetable oil are a direct result of photosynthesis which utilizes solar energy as its main input. Vegetable oil is a form of solar energy storage, much in the way a battery stores electrical energy. So yes, it is a solar bus, partly just because we teach and promote solar energy, but also because it does indeed run on solar energy. Also note, the burning of biofuels is considered to be carbon neutral by the IPCC.

2) The solar electric panels on the solar bus are not used to make the bus move. We use the solar electricity for a variety of purposes. At this rally in particular, we plugged in a PA sound system and led the chants and cheers for the rally. It was blasting quite loudly, all on solar power. At other evetnts, we power concerts, public speaking events, show movies, and all sorts of things, with the solar electricity that comes from the photovoltaic panels on the roof.

You can see video of many of these things here:
http://solarbus.org/vids_pics.shtml

I hope that answers your questions. Have a good one.

Gary

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3. Thanks for the reply, don't get me wrong Im not trying to be a dick

But first off if it runs on vegetable oil that vegetable oil is getting burned. It's not really storing any energy, it's working exactly as any other fuel.

And how much power in kilowatt hours is available to you off those solar pannels at any one time?

Sorry that I can't watch the video at this time, I am at work.

I am obviously a big believer in making sure our energy is clean. Unfortunately at this time trying to sell the public on solar pannels is the same as trying to sell them snake oil. It's not a realistic solution to our energy problems. It can play a part, but that part will be very small until we can figure out a way to store energy better.

[garybeck]

5. To answer your questions...

1) Vegetable oil is NOT "working exactly as any other fuel". Other fuels contribute to greenhouse gas emissions and global warming. The IPCC determined that the burning of biofuels is carbon neutral because the plant that makes the fuel has absorbed CO2 while it's growing. In fact there is a net loss of CO2 from the atmosphere. As well, the plant would emit the same amount of CO2 into the atmosphere if it just decomposed naturally. For these reasons biofuels are carbon neutral. So I disagree 100% that burning vegetable oil is fuel is the same thing as burning gas.

2) On the roof we currently have about 350 watts of solar panels. Inside the bus we have 8 batteries that store about 10 kilowatt-hours of energy. And our inverter will supply up to 3,000 watts of that energy at a time.

Your assertion that solar panels are like snake oil is disturbing. Whatever, dude. The solar business is BOOMING right now, and it is NOT snake oil. People are putting solar panels on their roofs, and running their meter backwards and selling power to the power company, all over the place. Huge arrays are going up all over the planet. Snake oil? I don't think so. Storage is not the main concern at this point. Solar is a big help now because it produces power during the peak demand period. That's what we need now most. This prevents the need to build more power plants just to accomodate the peak demand. For the long term, hydrogen will prove to be the storage solution. There are other possibilities including compressed air that are being evaluated for large scale energy storage.

Snake oil is a fraud. Snake oil is something that doesn't work. Snake oil is when people are trying to rip you off. Every ten minutes our plant is bombarded with enough solar energy to power the entire planet for a full year. Solar energy is a solution, bro. Not snake oil. Wake up.

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7. I did not know about the CO2 neutrality, thanks for the good info. I stand corrected

10 kilowatt hours is very impressive, but how long does it take to charge all those batteries using the solar panels alone? You say they are 350 watts, that sounds very impressive too. But under what condition do they actually ever produce 350 watts of output? What is the true average output that you get? 50 watts? 100 watts?

You are absolutely right, the solar business is booming right now. Yes, huge solar arrays are going up all over the place. Yes, solar can be an addition to the grid. But that's completely missing my point because the real question is how much energy is all this actually producing. And the answer is almost nothing. You can invest 30 grand in a solar system for your house (or bus) but chances are you will still need to be hooked up to the grid unless you are willing to make some major cut backs in your appliances.

And yes, ever ten minutes we get enough energy from the sun to power the planet. That sounds awesome if you don't really think about it. The problem is how you actually harvest that power. You can make a similar statement in arguing for nuclear. There is enough nuclear energy in the ball point of a pan to power the planet for a day (I made that anology up, I dont know the actual energy but it is huge and would provide an insane amount of power); the question again is how do you actually harvest that power.

[garybeck]

8. more questions... answers ... !

solar panels are rated in what we call "peak sun". this amounts to a good sunny noon-day sun. so when the sun is shining full, and the batteries are hungry, they will put out 350 watts, and this is very common. under lower light, they put out less power. it is a direct relationship/proportion.

to effectively estimate the power a panel will produce in an average day, you take the rated wattage and multiply it by the number of hours of peak sun. The national average is about 5 hours of peak sun per day (probably slightly less than that, but close enough). So a 350 watt array will produce about 350 x 5 = 1750 watt-hours per day.

your assessment of solar is a little distorted. yes, if you want to go completely off the grid, you need to get more efficient with theuse of your power. so what's wrong with that? it doesn't mean a change in lifestyle.

the fact is that nearly every American has enough roof space to power most or nearly all of their electricity with solar. the cost is usually not as high as $30,000 as you claim. there is a 30% tax credit that pays for 30% of the system and in many states there are more grants available, so people end up paying sometimes only 20% of the actual cost.

We have to start somewhere. Yes solar is not supplying half of our energy demand yet, but we have to start somewhere. Ten years ago there was ZIP going on with solar. We didn't even have the technology for residential grid-intertie systems. If you look at the production and sales of solar panels over the last decade is is skyrocketing, exponentially. The price continues to drop. At some point soon we are going to reach the point where solar costs the same as utility power.

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9. Your "peak sun" understanding seems to be distorted

it doesn't seem to account for the fact that it gets cloudy fairly often, it doesn't account for the fact that the planet has 4 seasons, it doesn't account for the fact that you get a lot more power from the sun here in the New Mexico desert than you do in Seattle. So to actually get 1750 watt hours per day (thats enough to power a fairly small air conditioner for half of that day) the conditions would have to be absolutely ideal, something that is not very common and greatly depends on geography and the season. And I wouldn't be suprised if you actually did some real testing of the ouput you are getting you would get a number that is a small fraction of that.

You say that solar isn't supplying half of our energy yet. The fact is it isn't even supplying a tiny fraction of our energy at this point. I dont know the actual numbers but I would be suprised if they are even penatrating 1% of our energy generation.

There is nothing wrong with making a life style change to live off solar, anyone that does so should get props for it. Problem is most americans would never be willing to do that and the fact you are posting on the internet I would guess you are one of those americans that wouldn't make such a life style change.

[garybeck]

10. Dude, I know what I'm talking about. it's not just "my understanding."

I've been designing solar energy systems and teaching about this for 20 years. I know what I'm talking about. Please don't tell me my understanding is distorted. You say this as if I just made it up or something.

Peak sun is by definition, 1000 watts per square meter. it is the intensity of sunlight in a noon day sun.

If you want to account for cloudy days, you are asking about "average peak sun hours per day."

5 hours of peak sun is the national average (although again the actual number is slightly less than 5). this is realistic. it is real. 1750 watt-hours per day is what you get on average with an array of 350 watts, real life, my friend. it's not some pie-in-the-sky theory. It's not something I made up. the conditions would NOT have to be "ideal" as you say. that is a national average.

in New Mexico, you get MORE than 5 hours of peak sun. Up to 7 or more in the summer and less than 5 in the winter. you can look it up in many databases.

You say if I "did some real testing on this stuff, I would only get a fraction of these numbers." YOu have no idea what you're talking about. Please. Don't embarass yourself with your lack of knowledge. I have been doing this for 20 years. I teach about it. I know how much power a solar panel puts out. When you design a solar energy system, you have to work with averages. The AVERAGE is something less than 5 hours of peak sun per day. That's not some theory. It's based on real life testing. I have designed thousands of solar energy systems that use this formula to design the size of the array, to make sure the panels put out the amount of power required, and they all work. I don't see the reason you have to be knocking solar so much when clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

there is one caveat about the 5 peak sun hours... because solar panels are tested in a laboratory under standard test conditions which have a lower temperature than real life, the numbers are not exactly the same. But the difference is on the scale of 10% not having to reduce it to "a fraction" as you incorrectly theorize.

You are also incorrect on the air conditioner. 1750 watt-hours will not supply even a small air conditioner for a day. most air conditioners will use a minimum of 1000 watts to operate and the duty cycle is over 50%. but if peole designed passive solar buildings, especially in climates like New Mexico, you wouldn't need air conditioners.

I don't see what your big beef is with solar energy. Maybe if you opened your mind a bit and learned a little more about it, instead of making up your own distorted conclusions, you'd find it's not so bad.

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11. You wouldn't need air conditioners in new mexico? Are you serious?

And I did say small air conditioner, a typical small A/C unit in your window will run about 300 - 500 watts.

See, now you changed to talking about averages. Averages are not good for the real world. You made the claim that eventually solar can generate half of all our electricity. The fact that there are 4 seasons, the fact that it gets cloudy, the fact that there is more sun here in NM than there is in Seattle makes that claim absolutely absurd. If I am in the northwest I do not care what the average sun intensity in the entire United States is. Yet I still need the same amount of energy in the north west as I do in the south west.

You seem offended that I said if you did some actual testing you would not get 1750 watts. But you are not addressing my question, did you ever actually do real testing about how much energy you are getting? You can hook up a load to your output from your solar and measure what you are truly getting. You say you have been doing this for 20 years, yet you can't tell me how much energy those solar pannels on your bus actually produce on a typical day because you can't define what a typical day is. Typical day when? Where? The fact you are hooked up to an inverter tells me you haven't been getting very much power out of this.

My beef with solar is that we need real world solutions, not solutions that look good on paper but suck in the real world. Solar can play a part in our energy picture as it should, but that part will never be large and to suggest it might one day be 50% is absolutely absurd.

And I am talking about solar panels here. There are other ways of harvesting solar energy that I fully support such as running a turbine by getting a large array of mirrors and fixing the light on a single point to boil water. If you spent as much time promoting those solutions as you do solar panels I think your effort would be a lot more valuable.

[garybeck]

14. I will try to explain it to you again my friend

Ok you seem to be stuck on this "average" thing. So let me explain to you how it actually works.

I said 5 hours of peak sun is the average. The reason I gave that figure is because people reading this forum are from all over the country. If you are going to design a system for actual use, you would not use the national average. Instead, you would look up the average number of peak sun hours per day for each month of the year in your geographic location. That is done by learning how to read these tables:

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/pubs/redbook/

you scroll down to your state, and then look up your city. Then you know how many *peak sun hours* you can expect to have shining on your solar panel. Again, the figure is given for each month of the year, if you take a minute to actually look at it. This figure ***accounts for clouds and weather***. That is because there have been radiation detectors in all major cities for decades now, monitoring this.

So when you know what your peak sun hours are, you multiply it by the wattage of the solar panels, and that is how much energy you will get from your solar panel in an average day.

Now you asked if I "ever did any actual testing" on the system I use. To answer your question, anyone who knows what they're doing will include monitoring equipment in their system. I have a very sophisicated monitor on my system. The output of the solar panels is measured every day. And yes they put out their rated value. If you want to know how much my solar panels produce tomorrow, I will tell you, down to the tenth of an amp-hour. Does that satisfy you? GEEZ!

Now, for your statement that "The fact you are hooked up to an inverter tells me you haven't been getting very much power out of this."

This only shows that you have absolutely NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. An inverter doesn't have anything to do with the power production. Do you even know what an inverter is? If you did you would not say such a thing, so it is quite obvious that you do not know what an inverter is. The inverter only takes the energy that is stored in the batteries, that came in from the solar panels, and powers the appliances. 100% of everything the solar bus has ever powered has come directly from the sun. Your accusation that "I'm not getting very much power out of this" because "I'm hooked up to an inverter" is really a joke.

And then you say solar "sucks in the real world."

OK, I gave it a shot... I wasted quite a while trying to give you the actual facts on solar energy and correct your completely inaccurate understanding of how much power they put out and hopefully you found the wherewithall to actually pay attention to something I said and maybe you learned something. If not, maybe someone else reading here did, and my time wasted on this is not completely in vain. Have a nice day.

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15. I am stuck on the average thing because it is an important point

the average of the entire country does not matter. Seattle alone has close to 4 million people, they don't get much sun. Millions of other people live in areas where solar is not a viable option. You also have to deal with winter. The power that will be produced during those winter months will be a fraction of what is produced in the summer, yet your energy needs are about the same. That's why the average doesn't mean anything, it is all based on the different conditions of the enviroment you are in. Therefore to suggest that solar could provide 50% of our power isnt realistic. If in fact solar provided 50% of our power each time some rain came along there would be a giant black out with catastrophic results. Power plants don't go online with a simple on/off switch.

Thats good you can tell me how much electricity your solar pannels will generate tomorrow, can you give me that number? I would appreciate it.

When I think of inverter I think of your bus's battery being converted to 120V AC. If I am wrong on that assumption my apologies.

And I appreciate you trying to be friendly, but when you use the term "my friend" I can't help but get a picture of John McCain in my head.

[garybeck]

16. average

the average is used for some calculations, for good reason. get over it! if you want to know the year round output of a solar panel, you work with the year round average for that location. that is the correct way to determine the year round output.

if you want to estimate the daily output you must look up the average for that *month* in your area. Again, this is on the chart, for which I sent the link inthe last post. You can look it up for Seattle if you want.

I can tell you my solar output for tomorrow but I'll tell you right now it's going to be zero because my batteries are full. There is a device called a charge controller that prevents over charging of the batteries. When the batteries are full, it basically shuts off the solar panels. But if you want me to go out there and verify the amp-hours produced, and even take a picture of the reading, I'll do it for you, but you gotta do something for me. Go look at those charts. Tell me your year round average peak sun hours. Tell me the number also for January and for August, so you can see the difference. If you do that I'll show you how I measure my solar output.

one thing I gotta say... you seem to think that I'm scamming or something or I have some kind of financial motive at promoting solar. You even use the word "misinformation." I take offense to that. The solar bus project is an educational project. I used to sell solar panels but now I am just a teacher. Excuse me, but I don't do "misinformation". And if you want to continue to get a free one-on-one lesson in solar energy I'm happy to continue but you have to show a little respect.

[cannondale]

12. Thanks for the good Info

I'm inclined to trust the people who are working with the technology and not the ones pretending that they have the answers because they once took a math class and read something in Time.

Thanks for your work in this field. Much appreciated and hopefully will pay off for all of us.

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13. Do you apply that logic to other things?

Do you trust a healthcare lobbyist to tell you how our healthcare is run? They do it for a living so if we use your logic they must know what they are talking about. Or maybe we trust the doctor that makes $400K a year to tell us how to fix the hight cost of healthcare.

I am not suggesting anyone here has financial motives. But there is a lot of corporate money behind solar power, and it leads to a lot of misinformation.

I'm not sure why you are suggesting I took a math class, I actually always sucked in complicated math. And I read lots of things, Time isn't one of them.

[cannondale]

17. D'oh!

I trust you, and only you. You are my new source for eco-friendly technologies. You seem to have no background or desire to really know the subject, so obviously you are an objective source, unlike those who are developing and using the technologies.

[Bennyboy]

4. A lot of bands use Veggie Oil....

for their busses. BUT like everything else, now it is hard to find. used to be pull up, ass the manager and fill up. npow there are companies that buy the oil.

The bus needed to be converted too, cuz veggie oil won't start the bus, it freezes, clogs etc.. so you have to have a dual system.

[garybeck]

6. it's a bit harder to come by but still readily available

the hard part is having onboard filtration, and a vacuum hose. Without these two things you can't just pick up dirty oil and fill your tank with it.

regarding the dual fuel system... yes that is required but it's not a big deal to do the conversion. took us about a day and a half. You just have to add a tank and make a way to heat the veggie oil up before it goes to the motor.

cheers