75 & 81 year old peaceful protesters hands & feet shackled....in Burma? Iraq? or the U.S.???

[MNmom]

Run time: 05:02 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNPYh2oC40   Posted on YouTube: April 30, 2010 By YouTube Member: TCPeaceCampaign Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: April 30, 2010 By DU Member: MNmom Views on DU: 2147

 
This speaks volumes about the kind of country we live in. John and Marie Braun were arrested along with 11 other people in a peaceful protest in front of the White House. They were reading the names of the 77 Minnesotans killed in Iraq and Afghanstan, along with the names of the Iraqis and Afghans killed in the U.S. wars. They committed civil disobedience by lying down on the pavement.

They were in custody for almost 24 hours, moved four times, handcuffed with every move, finger printed, and in court they were shackled on their feet and hands. Their jail was all stainless steel including the bunks. They were given no food the first 15 hours.

Marie and John speak about how wrong it is for our society to treat thousands of people in this way for committing minor offenses, especially poor and minority peoples who make up the majority of prisoners.

[paulsby]

1. in many respects, it's about equal treatment

like the shackling thing

shackle ALL prisoners in court, and there can't be complaints of raacism, sexism, or whatever.

it;'s also far safer that way

people in court tend to do wacky things. i've seen it

it's like handcuffing. our policy is to handcuff ALL arrestees. period. whether they are 70 yrs old , or 14

male or female

in some cases, it SEEMS ridiculous, but it is equal treatment

[MNmom]

2. They could have just ticketed and fined them.

They didn't need to put them in jail overnight and put them through all the difficulties associated with that. They intentionally treated them harshly to discourage them and other people from protesting the wars at the White House.

[paulsby]

3. that's your opinion

i have no idea what their policy says vis a vis this, etc.

iow, that's just speculation

and also, people doing civil disobedience like this often WANT to get arrested, that's the point

oh noes. jail overnight.

seriously

[MNmom]

11. We are supposed to be a democracy where people are treated with respect,

not shackled on their hands and feet for minor offenses, for things that could clearly be handled by giving them a ticket.

There was NO REASON to put these people in jail overnite. It was degrading,expensive and completely unnecessary.

[paulsby]

12. again, that's your opinion

what's the dept's POLICY vis a vis same?

as for the shackled thang, i already explained why it was valid to do so at ARRAIGNMENT/FIRST hearings and in fact in the best interests of the defendants, attorneys, audience, and cops

[MNmom]

Again, the U.S. has less that 5% of the world's population and almost 25% of the world's prisoners??

Run time: 05:02 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNPYh2oC40   Posted on YouTube: April 30, 2010 By YouTube Member: TCPeaceCampaign Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: April 30, 2010 By DU Member: MNmom Views on DU: 2147

 
Something is wrong - we're imprisoning too many people and this is a clear example.

When people commit minor offenses, we should not be putting them in jail for even one night - it's a huge waste of resources and it's inhumane. They could be ticketed and told to appear in court the next day.

We have an oppressive prison system - we should not have 25% of the world's prisoners.

[paulsby]

16. this is NOT a clear example

this was a pre-arraignment detention for pete's sake.

i am the FIRST to criticize our overly incarcerous system, and am a strong opponent of war on drugs, and some aspects of the war on terror and war on domestic violence

that of course has zero relevance to this case, which is about uniform standards for arraignments/first hearing, etc.

as i try to explain, at least where i work, there are 1-3 officers per 8-12 prisoners (sometimes more) at these arraignments

there is no jury to be prejudiced by the shackles

they are brought in "on a chain" due to the gross disparity in #'s, and for the safety of defense, prosecution, witnesses, judge, cops, and defendants

[MNmom]

17. I have been arrested for civil disobedience in anti-war demonstrations.

I was given a citation, released on my own recognizance, and given a court date. It is absolutely an unnecessary waste of staff time to drive these people (there were 13) to four different places through the middle of the night.

You talk about having few staff - they shouldn't be wasted on taking care of peace protesters for 24 hours.

It is also a huge waste of money to do this with other people as well who have committed minor offenses. And....as Marie and John Braun say in the video, it is unnecessarily brutal.

[paulsby]

18. i am not saying it is good policy

but then again, i don't know if it was due to written policy, commander directive or what.

nor do you, i suspect

i think the "brutal" claim is ridiculous hyperbole

seriously. BRUTAL?

and again, the whole POINT of this type of civil disobedience is to refuse the lawful order to disperse so you can get arrested and "make your point"

and if you aren't willing to put up with a little discomfort, which is what it was, then you are a cafe protester

i don't think MLK would have much sympathy

[MNmom]

19. It is brutal when a protester's head is slammed into a wall.

That is what John Braun saw.

[paulsby]

20. and i'm sure his account is 100% unbiased

:l

considering his entire point was to break the law and get arrested, and arguably was to make a point about the injustices of the CJ system etc. i take it with a grain of salt.

[MNmom]

21. No, his point was to protest the wars.

He had planned on being given a citation and appearing in court, which is what has happened to him before. He had no intention, at the age of 81, of spending the night in the DC jail system.

It simply clogs up our judicial system and wastes money and personnel to put people in jail overnite who are being charged with minor offenses.

[paulsby]

22. i am not disagreeing with you

that it is generally a waste of money, etc.

i am disagreeing that GIVEN the incarceration until arraignment, etc. that they shouldn't have been shackled, etc. and treated like EVERYBODY else, not as 'special'

that was my point from the beginning

and if you look at my first post, etc. it's pretty darn clear

[MNmom]

24. Everybody else who has committed a minor offense should not be treated like this either.

Vivien Stern, a research fellow at the International Center for Prison Studies center in London, says that the American incarceration rate has made the United States “a rogue state, a country that has made a decision not to follow what is a normal Western approach.”

[paulsby]

25. why do i care what "vivien stern" thinks? seriously!

and fwiw, in all sorts of ways, we don't follow what is a :"normal western approach". like that we still have free speech, and most of the westernworld doesn't

iow, saying it isn;'t consistent with european norms says nothing about whether it is just

and here's a hint... PRE ARRAIGNMENT DETENTION is NOT normally included in incarceration rates

my point YET AGAIN, is this

GIVEN that they were booked, they should be treated EXACTLY like the other offenders vis a vis shackling, etc.

we both agree that there may be some very good reasons NOT to book them, but to cite and release


i totally agree that we incarcerate too many people. i have never disagreed with that. as a cop,i am FORCED to enforce stupid laws, mostly a result of the war on drugs and war on domestic violence, quite frequently

[Ken Burch]

33. IT's an old peace guy...you can assume he wouldn't lie, for God's sake.

n/t.

[Ken Burch]

40. Your argument would be much stronger without the "that's what they ALL say" attitude

To hear you talk, we have no reason NOT to assume these people also have a meth lab in the basement.

[Ken Burch]

32. I don't think you'd have had much sympathy for MLK

They should only shackle people who actually committee VIOLENT acts. Not just somebody who sold somebody else a joint, let alone elderly peaceniks.

If the person is there for a nonviolent crime, they're not going to be stupid enough to make a break for it in court.

[Downtown Hound]

26. You should realize one thing about civil disobedience

While it's true that one of its stated intents is to simply, "make a point," it also has the goal of clogging the system. One of the best and easiest ways to accomplish this is to flood the local jail with political prisoners. I've seen this work before. When the county is suddenly faced with the daunting prospect of a few thousand people that simply refuse to go anywhere but jail, they find themselves in quite a predicament. Where to put everybody and how long to hold them? It's serious drain on their resources.

Personally, I don't really see the point in getting arrested unless you really want to make a nuisance of yourself, which generally means be willing to spend time in jail. I'm not really all that impressed with somebody that gets themselves arrested but somehow believes that they are always entitled to simply be cited and released.

Hey, if that's what ends up happening, great. Of the two times I was arrested that happened on one of them. The other I was booked into jail and spent about 12 hours there. Neither time was particularly horrid. When I really think of what other human beings have gone through opposing oppression, a little time in modern American jail really isn't all that bad.

At the end of the day, if you're not willing to spend a little time behind bars or wear a few chains here and there, you should probably stick to the designated protest route.

[MNmom]

29. The point is that this is how hundreds of thousands of poor and immigrant people are treated

who are accused of very minor offenses. We are the number one jailer in the world - what does that say about us as a country, as a democracy? What does it say that we are so eager to jail people for minor offenses??<p>

[Downtown Hound]

37. Well now, I agree with that

But I still think that's a separate issue from how people should be treated once in custody. I think that a lot of the problem is, yes, we do have too many people in jail. Way too many. I still think that's a separate issue from how they should be treated in jail once they are there, rightly or wrongly.

I think Paulsby makes good points about equal treatment as well as safety. How do we really expect 3 LEO's to handle 12 prisoners on a bus if they're not restrained in some way? It's all well and good for those of us here at home to say, "Oh they're in for minor offenses. They won't be violent." But guess what? We're not the ones that have to transport them. If there's a way to do safely it without shackling, I'm all ears. But I think issues like that need to be addressed from a practical and administrative point of view.

I do agree with you that the folks in the video would have been better off with a cite and release. The thing is, I think Paulsby does too. His point is simply that people in jail, at least in terms of pre-trial arraignment, should be treated equally. That's not the same thing as saying that everybody who commits a minor offense should necessarily be in jail. I don't always agree with Paulsby, had a bit of a disagreement with him the other day as a matter of fact. But I think he makes a good point there.

I agree with you that we have way too many people in jail for "crimes" that could best be handled in another way. I also think that if you choose to engage in civil disobedience, you should accept whatever consequences befall you. Gandhi and MLK never complained that because they were civil disobedients, they deserved special treatment. They advocated taking personal responsibility for your actions, remaining non-violent even in the face of violence and provocation by the state, and being respectful to all you encounter, including the cops that arrest you and the jailers that incarcerate you.

I've found that when I adopt that attitude with law enforcement instead of a, "Fuck you you fascist pig" mentality, more often than not I get similar respect in return, and it makes whatever I'm going through with them MUCH easier to deal with and pleasant than it would otherwise be. I also think it would be beneficial to the peace movement as a whole if sometimes we just toughened up a little and went to jail gracefully and willingly instead of always making ourselves the victim.

[Ken Burch]

31. You CAN NOT be saying it's ok to treat elderly peace activists like this

If you were arguing that nobody who wasn't in on a charge involving violent crime should be shackled, it would be one thing. (Second line deleted when I picked up on the fact that you ARE a cop and...well, that pretty much tells the tale with you...)

[MNmom]

4. It is unnecessary humiliation for all people who are being charged with minor offenses

to be treated in this way. Totally unnecessary.

[paulsby]

5. that's your opinion

if you truly support equal treatment under the law, then bright line policies like "All prisoners will be shackled in courts' prevents claims of racism, sexism, favorable treatement, prevents resentment by some prisoners towards others who they perceive as getting special treatment, etc.

as for "minor offense", it was a misdemeanor, which means arrestable and clearly that was the whole POINT of the civil disobedience

also, often these prisoners are brought in using buses, etc. and there are like two guards or so for a couple of dozen arrestees. shackling them together is the ONLY safe way to do it.

it's called equal treatment under the law. which many people here CLAIM to support, except when they actually see it done to those they support

then those "liberal principles' get discarded for the "why weren't WE treated specially"

i get that attitude all the time. i have worked some VERY toney districts. comments like "you don't need to handcuff ME (haughty sneer). i am a professor at..." or "i make six figures" or "i know councilman ... " or...

spare me

[Downtown Hound]

7. I'm curious

When you say that people in court do wacky things, do you find that they still do these things if they are shackled or do you think shackles prevent such incidents? I'm actually genuinely curious as to what your opinion is, not trying to put you on the spot or anything.

[paulsby]

8. the shackles PREVENT same

here's my point.

these are people brought in for ARRAIGNMENT not trial

at least where i work there might be one to 3 LEO's in the court and 8-12 prisoners.

look at that ratio

it's not like a trial where there are a couple of LEO's /bailiffs and ONE defendant

shackling is for EVERYBODY's safety

1) the public
2) the defense and prosecution
3) the suspects themselves
4) the cops working there

i have seen UNshackled defendants assault attorneys and people in the audience, to include biting.

i once had to jump OFF the stand to help restrain a defendant who was being asasultive.

shackles are a SAFETY measure, and as long as applied UNIFORMLY (which was my whole point) are entirely reasonable

and again, these are arraignments/first hearings, NOT trials

there is no jury to be tainted by seeing a shackled defendant

[Downtown Hound]

27. I do think you make valid points

And I realize that one day I may find myself in the back of a prison bus shackled and end up kicking myself for this, but hey, live and learn 'eh?

Question: I understand the the United States is somewhat unique among industrial nations with its practice of shackling its prisoners as frequently as we do. Now, you've given me good logical reasons as to why this should be done, but tell me, do you think American jails and prisons are more violent than say, their European counterparts?

In other words, why do they seem to get away with not doing it? Are their criminals simply not as violent as ours are? And if they are, why do you think that might be so?

[paulsby]

28. i admittedly know NOTHING about european prisons

(understanding they probably vary widely) except based on what i've seen in movies and teevee.

i appreciate that you think i make good points. i try

[Ken Burch]

35. The only people who did those things would have been murderers or rapists

I mean, c'mon Paulsby, you can't honestly think there was a risk these types, or people there for minor possession, would do anything like that.

[Downtown Hound]

36. People with minor possession shouldn't be in jail at all in my opinion

That's still a different issue from how a jail should be run. And I don't think that you can honestly say that you know for sure that somebody accused of a minor offense wouldn't become violent while in jail. They could experience a moment of panic, fear, or extreme anger.

Personally, i think if we as a nation did stop going after all this petty shit, it would free up LOTS of jail and prison space to where we could maybe institute a different, more humane prison system.

But the system is what it is today. If you're going to voluntarily break the law to make a point, be prepared to experience it in all of its imperfect glory. And if you consider yourself a true civil disobedient, you should not seek any special treatment and empathize with your fellow inmates by experiencing what they experience.

[paulsby]

39. if by minor possession, you are referring to drugs, i agree

but then i am against the war on drugs.

your points are valid. these are simply safety measures, applied uniformly for everybody's safety

the sense of entitlement also gets to me. if you are going to commit civil disobedience and commit a crime to make a point, it is the height of whininess to then grumble because god forbid you had to spend a night in jail and get shackled like those "common criminals"

it really is ridiculous, as you point out

[Downtown Hound]

41. Kind of funny how so many here want peace and a whole host of other things to happen in the world

But the idea of spending a day in jail or getting shackled in an effort to make it happen is deemed to horrible to go through. I think most of these people have never been in jail and really don't realize that while it's certainly not much fun, it's not the end of the world either. If you really are in for non-violent civil disobedience you probably won't be there for very long. So just sit back, chill, and wait. It'll all be over before you know it. ;)

[MNmom]

42. You missed the point - the Brauns spoke extensively about how hundreds of thousands of people

in the U.S. should NOT have to go through this for minor offenses.

We are supposed to be a civilized country. If someone is accused of writing a bad check or some other minor offense, they should not be treated in this way.

The point was NOT to treat the Braun's differently but that ALL THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ACCUSED OF MINOR OFFENSES COULD BE TREATED RESPECTFULLY. There is no reason to drag anyone around in a paddy wagon until 3 in the morning and not feed them for 15 hours, etc.

[paulsby]

38. there IS a risk

you don't unshackle the "minor" crime people and shackle the major crime people. that's the WHOLE point

you treat them uniformly. they haven't been convicted of anything. it's an ARRAIGNMENT

also, you of course have no idea what you are talking about. one of the worst examples of assaultive behavior i have ever seen in a courtroom was by a guy there for a DRIVING WITH A SUSPENDED LICENSE trial, iow a misdemeanor

like i said, you have (at least in my jurisdiction,at arraignment) 1-3 cops for 8-12 defendants, brought into court.

the best way to safely do this, and protect EVERYBODY is to shackle them

in brief, it WORKS. i can't remember the last time we had an issue with a shackled defendant. i can recall numerous issues with unshackled defendants (escape, assault, etc.) but not shackled.

hth

[MNmom]

10. The U.S. has less than 5% of the world's population and almost a quarter of the world's prisoners.

There is something deeply wrong with that.

From Global Research: "Indeed, the United States leads the world in producing prisoners, a reflection of a relatively recent and now entirely distinctive American approach to crime and punishment. Americans are locked up for crimes — from writing bad checks to using drugs — that would rarely produce prison sentences in other countries. And in particular they are kept incarcerated far longer than prisoners in other nations.

Criminologists and legal scholars in other industrialized nations say they are mystified and appalled by the number and length of American prison sentences."

I don't think Americans have more criminal behavior than other countries - Global Research states that we lock up people for crimes that would RARELY produce prison sentences in other countries.

That is wrong.

[izquierdista]

14. Paulsby's goal is 50%

Lots more "bad guys" for the cops to lock up!

[paulsby]

15. which is gr00vy

and not relevant to arraignment safety procedures

hth

[izquierdista]

13. You must have a human rights bot working

Every time the authorities need to be taken to task for human rights violations, there you are, sticking up for the SS wannabees.

[Ken Burch]

34. He's a cop. At some point, that evidently does a major number on your head

I could understand his "treat everybody the same" argument, but why would he question these peoples' version of events? There's no reason at all to assume that they're lying, yet Paulsby does for some twisted reason.

I hate to think what he might have done in Chicago in '68.

[Downtown Hound]

6. I realize that it seems ridiculous to shackle people for minor offenses

But as someone who's been arrested for civil disobedience twice, I myself never expect to be treated differently than any other inmate. And while it's true that I have yet to be shackled or even wear any cuffs that weren't plastic (and for those of you looking at my avatar, I'm talking about actual POLICE ones), if I ever was transported while in custody, I wouldn't complain about being shackled.

I think both sides of this debate have valid points. It really does seem ridiculous to shackle harmless, old peace protesters like this, not to mention many other non-violent criminals that are really just regular people that made a little mistake.

At the same time, how do you distinguish who gets shackled and who doesn't? Just because somebody is in for a first time non-violent offense doesn't mean they're not going to be violent. They might be scared, angry, confused, and that could cause them to lash out. If you shackle everybody, well then everybody is treated the same and no one really gets special treatment.

There is something to be said for equal treatment under the law. My personal opinion is that if I choose to break the law by engaging in non-violent civil disobedience, I should accept what comes to me and not think myself or my righteous stand should give me a pass for easier treatment.

At the same time, I can't shake the felling like a lot of this really is overkill. Somebody much smarter than I am will ultimately have to come to a decision as to whether or not this is wrong.

[axollot]

9. The valid point in this video is resources wasted on the arrest of the protesters.

We have enough people incarcerated in this country. Our jails already full with ticket-able drug offenses too. Otherwise, the shackles part? To be expected - brutality however, is not.

Cheers
Sandy

[jotsy]

23. Examples, used to discourage any and all who dare voice an opinion not supplied by the PTB

I'm insulted to know that folks who earn their living upholding justice and keeping peace would view what happened to this couple is in keeping with the task at hand. I wonder what any of these 'professionals' would think if this had been their own parents. The only purpose served here was to prevent others from finding any courage to voice their own opinions. That's not law enforcement, but what I see as abuse of a system by those who participate in it. Using judicial infrastructure to carry out tactical conditioning objectives against the very public they are all paid to serve will never resemble justice.

Anyone who has traversed this earth for three quarters of a century, may not deserve my respect but certainly my civility and my patience.

Banksters and Klanksters. A fitting pair.

A proud kick for John and Marie. Courageous and compassionate elders who should not have been made to endure consequences as excessive as these for being so.

[bsorem]

30. Thanks for taking on the chin for the rest of us.

Thank you Jon and Marie for your courage and integrity. We need to keep on speaking out and demanding attention to the crimes of war. You also shine a light on the stupidity and malice in our so-called justice system.