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NRA rank and file don't think people on the terrorist watch list should buy guns.

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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 08:24 AM
Original message
NRA rank and file don't think people on the terrorist watch list should buy guns.
 
Run time: 03:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00wN15Qbrqk
 
Posted on YouTube: May 14, 2010
By YouTube Member: ThinkProgress2
Views on YouTube: 0
 
Posted on DU: May 15, 2010
By DU Member: Joanne98
Views on DU: 1460
 
A recent Government Accountability Office (GAO) report found that individuals on the federal terrorist watch list were able to purchase firearms and explosives from licensed U.S. dealers 1,119 times. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg (I) told the Senate Homeland Security Committee this month that Congress should close this “terror gap” in the nation’s gun laws. “If society decides that these people are too dangerous to get on an airplane with other people, then it’s probably appropriate to look very hard before you let them buy a gun,” he said.

During the hearing, Bloomberg actually encountered some GOP opposition to this seemingly noncontroversial suggestion. Moreover, the NRA strongly objects to closing the “terror gap,” calling legislation dealing with the issue “21st Century McCarthyism.” Bloomberg is “abusing the word ‘terrorist’ to resurrect and pursue a gun-control agenda,” an NRA spokesperson said.

But it appears that rank-and-file NRA members disagree with their leadership. Today at the NRA’s annual conference in Charlotte, NC, ThinkProgress asked dozens of NRA members if those on the terrorist watch list should be able to purchase firearms and an overwhelming majority agreed with Bloomberg on the need to close the “terror gap.”

Notably, one NRA member found news of the “terror gap” so incredulous that he did not believe the fact that potential terrorists are allowed to purchase firearms. He called news of the GAO report “false information,” and when ThinkProgress tried to show him a Washington Post article reporting it, he remained unconvinced:

NRA MEMBER: The Washington Post, I think that’s part of like the Communist News Broadcasting and everything. … The Washington Post lies on everything. … I don’t know how I can believe the Post. You need to find better facts than the Washington Post. … I wouldn’t believe a word I read in the Washington Post. It’s one of the worst papers in the whole country, from what I’ve heard.

TP: Oh, then which newspaper would you believe?

NRA MEMBER: Which newspaper? I don’t know I would stick to Fox News over everything.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/05/15/nra-terrorist-list/
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. "I would stick to Fox News over everything"
Edited on Sat May-15-10 08:27 AM by marmar
Says all you need to know.


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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. oh yes, always FoxNews rises to the highest standards
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eagertolearn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. Classic ending! "I would stick to Fox News"...what a joke!
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WhoIsNumberNone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. Washington Post "lies about everything"; "one of the worst papers around"...
...according to what he's heard. So we can infer that he's never actually read it then, right?
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. The late Senator Ted Kennedy, by that criteria, would have been prevented from buying a gun
Due process exists in this nation for a reason.

I oppose using a secret and unimpeachable "no-fly list" to screen potential gun buyers for the same reason I oppose Arizona's "Show Me Your Papers" law. We are still innocent until proven guilty.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. Sure, until we start including the names of militia-types, KKK, and any other group of 'Muricans'
...who advocate violence against the American people.

Then listen to them squeal...
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. That's what I was thinking, and I can't imagine the NRA machine
opposing the sale of guns to anyone at anytime. They are so money hungry. They have sold out democracy at every turn.
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TheEuclideanOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. There is no saying that one or more of the people being interviewed
are on the terrorist watch list. It is very possible and they do not know it yet.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. You mean they would undermine Second Amendment rights?? The horror!!
:rofl:

NGU.

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Demstud Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't see how it would be constitutional
Maybe you could get away with if for foreign suspects, but you can't suddenly take away people's constitutional rights just because some guy somewhere in our government decided to put you on a list.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You could say the same for being allowed on an aircraft
...and actually there's more constitutional guarantees regarding freedom of movement than there is to buy a gun.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Airlines are private property. They can do what they please, within reason. n/t
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. That would be all well and good if it weren't the gov telling them who they can't board
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I can get on a private flight, regardless of whatever list the gov't puts me on. n/t
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. If you own your own plane, sure. I'm not sure why you think this is relevant.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Because we're talking about a government restriction that only applies to private airlines.
I don't have to own a plane, I can charter a flight and it also doesn't apply.

Secure Flight rules applies to all covered flights operated by U.S. aircraft operators that are required to have a full program under 49 CFR 1544.101(a), and covered flights operated by foreign air carriers that are required to have a security program under 49 CFR 1546.101(a) or (b). Private aircraft operated by corporate-owned entities are not covered in the scope of the Secure Flight rule.
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You still haven't explained relevance
I'm not even sure where you're trying to go here. First you claimed that airlines can do as they please because they are private entities, when clearly the gov is telling them what to do. Now you seem to be trying to claim someone denied boarding an airliner hasn't had their constitutional rights violated because they have the option of buying their own aircraft or chartering a plane?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Hell, if I had my way, we'd do away with the no-fly list altogether.
Edited on Sat May-15-10 03:16 PM by X_Digger
But the lense through which we have to judge the constitutionality of any measure rests on criteria like:

-is this an enumerated right; is this an unenumerated but recognized right; or is this an unenumerated and as yet unrecognized right
-whether or not the right is 'fundamental to the concept of ordered liberty'
-what level of judicial review do infringements of this right fall under (rational basis, intermediate, or strict)

The right to travel isn't explicitly spelled out in the Constitution (it was in the Articles of Confederation, though.) However, it has been recognized- Saenz v Roe, US v Guest, Shapiro v Thompson. In Shapiro, it was called "a virtually unconditional personal right". I'd say that qualifies as fundamental. Shapiro also set out the strict scrutiny standard for review of this right.

So now we get to the meat. Does government not giving you the green light to fly, via private carrier, infringe on the right to travel, and if so, would those restrictions pass muster under the strict scrutiny doctrine of judicial review.

One way of looking at it would ask whether or not the restriction is wholly of the government's action. In order for a private carrier to get protected status under FAA regulations, they agree to follow the government's directives regarding security. Nobody forces a private carrier to do so, but all large airlines do. Therefore it's the carriers who are denying you boarding, not the government- even though it was the government's refusal to give you the green light that caused the carrier to refuse boarding. In this approach, it is the action of a private company, not the government, that prevents you from traveling via private carrier. If it isn't government action, no right can be asserted- private companies have wide latitude to deny you service for whatever criteria they wish. Barring discriminatory practices, all are legal. No need to go into strict scrutiny. Additionally, these regulations only prohibit travel by certain carriers, not all, so the scope of the infringement is limited. ie, the government isn't prohibiting you from traveling by air, it's prohibiting a person from traveling by air via certain carriers.

Another way of looking at it is not judging based on the entity doing the refusal, but the basis on which you are refused. In this light, government is the entity ultimately responsible for your inability to board a commercial aircraft. You wish to contract for services with a private company, and the government is blocking that. It affects your right to travel via the most efficient means. So let's look at this infringement via strict scrutiny.

Strict scrutiny has three legs:
-must have a 'compelling government interest'- something necessary or crucial, not something like a vague 'promote the welfare'.
-must be narrowly focused
-must be the least restrictive means to achieve the goal

The compelling government interest would be preventing the death or kidnapping of passengers on a commercial airline. Where I have real trouble is the 'narrowly focused' bit. Can something so error prone, that the government admits includes incomplete and incorrect information- can that be said to be narrowly focused? Doubtful, considering that the government also admits that some people who meet these same criteria are not on the list for fear of letting them know they are under investigation. Since all three legs of the test have to pass, we don't even need to look at the 'least restrictive' leg.

I can't make a similar what-if for denying firearms for people on the supah sekrit terra lists that would lead to the conclusion that such measures constitutional. Due process clobbers it every time. Especially not in the eight states that also regulate private sales.

eta: Some good reading- http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32664.pdf, http://216.197.126.193/inthecourts/detail.cfm?id=274
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MajorChode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Now you're on to something
The no-fly list should be abolished because it's ineffective at it's intended purpose and does deny people their constitutional rights. You can't very well say people have the right to travel freely when one of the primary modes to do so is unavailable to them.

The no-fly list is a government action and they require the airlines to comply. The TSA has been successfully sued for erroneously denying people travel on common carrier airlines. The airlines were not named as a party to the lawsuits.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. The big problem is that the terrorist watch list is such a joke
I know somebody on the watch list who I'm absolutely sure shouldn't be on it. He doesn't know what he did to get on the list, and, of course, the government won't tell him. A lot of us have stories like that. The TWL was and continues to be part of the Kafkaesque legacy of the Bush Regime.

If it were something in which we, as citizens, could have some confidence that that those on the list really are suspected terrorists, then maybe (emphasize: maybe) we could take some drastic measures to restrict their access to weapons and explosives. As it is, the TWL is not so much what it purports to be as it is a historical document showing why Bush and Cheney should have been impeached and remove from power.
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Swede Atlanta Donating Member (906 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
19. My problem with this is.................
the same as my problem with the national security exception to Miranda warnings and the Administration's proposed changes to provide an even greater exception to Miranda.

The last time I checked in this country a person is innocent until proven guilty. I am all for enhancing our security but given that the government is wrong more than it is right, innocent individuals will be denied Miranda warnings and/or denied the right to purchase a firearm based on allegations of terrorism or being on the watchlist.

I for one would be perfectly happy if there was no legal right to own a firearm. But we continue to give the government more and more power to deny people of their constitutional rights without trial. Being denied rights based on your name (or a similar name) appearing on a watchlist also denies you the right to face your accuser.

This is a slippery slope. God forbid someone on the watchlist purchases a firearm and does someone harm but I am fearful of living in a police state.

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Travis Coates Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. What if?
Would it be OK to deny the 4th ammendment rights of people on the watch list or just the 2nd? Why?
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