(CNN) God's Warriors - Episode 1 of 3: God’s Jewish Warriors (parts 1-10)

[Poll_Blind]

Run time: 09:47 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkKhPLAyDsM   Posted on YouTube: August 22, 2007 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: August 23, 2007 By DU Member: Poll_Blind Views on DU: 3617

 

Episode 1, Part 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (of 10)

PB

[seemslikeadream]

1. Thank you so much

:hi:

[Poll_Blind]

2. You're welcome- I was happy to see someone took the time to get...

...it digitized and sliced up for YouTube so promptly. I'm hoping they continue to do the same for the remaining episodes.

PB

[lovuian]

3. What people do in God's name is amazing

we need compassion

[bjobotts]

25. Amazes me that someone claims "God gave us this land"..points

to a book and then tells whoever is settled there to get the hell out and this is supposed to make sense. I used to think the old testament was nothing but a Jewish land grab, the way the tribes of Israel would ride up to a foreign civilization and tell them God gave us this land and them begin slaughtering everyone as if this is the way it's supposed to be. But then supposedly god gave land to the followers of Muhammad also. I guess God should have drawn the lines better.
And thank Allah America hadn't been discovered yet.
Are all the religions based on massive land grabs? Does God need a good real estate attorney?

I hope these reports about "God Warriors" doesn't get people picking sides because I'm always nervous anytime "God" and "War" are mentioned in the same sentence. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of God if he has to continually have wars fought for him.
Why do people believe so deeply in what they are told rather than what they experience? Weird.

[bridgit]

4. Christiane is truly awesome!!

[aaronbees]

30. She's a perceptive reporter

She knows how to draw people out and is non-judgmental in her approach. It works at getting people to explain themselves with a little depth - great reporter trick. I didn't see all of this series, but what I did see of each one was great work; CNN has no idea what they have in her but I'm glad she got this done.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. thanks! watching part 2 on CNN now...

why can't these people realize they're all the same kind of crazy? :shrug:

[bridgit]

6. me too & yep! the 'people of the book' are all aspects of the same kind of crazy...

[progressoid]

11. Ditto...

same kind of crazy!

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. God's Warrior -- very, very impressive

I've only seen part one so far -- Very Impressive
since I'm abroad at the moment and watch in on CNN International it seems to run about one day later.

But I must say that really appear to make an effort at giving balance and avoid bias and slanted language.

[Poll_Blind]

8. This episode of Frontline (LINK inside) delves further into this issue.

"Israel's Next War?"

In "Israel's Next War?" FRONTLINE goes deep inside the world of militant Jewish radicals who pose a grave new threat to Israeli security and, potentially, to the region. "The dream of these extremists"—to blow up the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, one of the most important holy sites in the Muslim world—"should give us sleepless nights," says former Israeli Security Chief Avi Dichter. "Jewish terror is liable to create a serious strategic threat that will turn the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into a conflict between thirteen million Jews and a billion Muslims all over the world."

[puebloknot]

9. Thanks for this. I saw "Muslim Warriors" tonight...

... and it was fantastic. I missed the first one, so your efforts are appreciated!

It's going to be really interesting to see Christiane Amanpour with the Christian Warriors tomorrow!

There was another really good documentary on PBS tonight, too. Maybe it will repeat!

http://medievalnews.blogspot.com/2007/08/cities-of-light-rise-and-fall-of.html


"Cities of Light: The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain" - PBS documentary
A common history of cultures; On Aug. 22, PBS will air tale of interlaced enlightenment
CYNTHIA A. KANE
11 August 2007
Sarasota Herald-Tribune


Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together and flourished in Western Europe during a significant time of history, all but unknown to many. A rich and complex culture, this tolerant society sowed the seeds of the Renaissance more than a thousand years ago in Iberia, known today as Spain and Portugal.

PBS will air "Cities of Light: The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain" at 9 p.m. Aug. 22. The two-hour documentary illuminates a vital real-life experience -- one of importance, which lasted centuries.

The journey glimpses into significant cross-cultural understanding, strife and revival. This lost civilization, Islamic Spain, preserved ancient texts -- the great classical works of science, brought from the Byzantine Empire.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dipsydoodle]

14. If you mean the Mujahideen

which is the correct term then why not say so ? I have to assume it is them you wishing luck. Very thoughtful of you.

[knitter4democracy]

15. Fox News is your source?

The Washington Post? Where are the Spanish sources, since they'd know more about it?

I think it's best to see that what some visionaries say as wanting back the entire Muslim controlled area from the height of power as a way of reminding their followers that they haven't always been downtrodden. Some will react violently to get those lands back, sure, but most will see the truth--that the Muslims who controlled El Andalus were moderate and allowed a very cosmopolitan culture to exist with Christians and Jews living in peace with Muslims. When the more reactionary Muslims took over, it was the beginning of the end of their reign.

The huge majority of Muslims, vast majority, are far more moderate and prefer peace. They take seriously the injunctions in the Koran to let those peoples of the Book live in peace with them rather than kill them all off.

The last time Europe had to deal with terrorists on this scale (at the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s), they ultimately learned that the best way to deal with them was to make them part of the power structure--after too many died and an entire world war was fought. Maybe listening and respecting our enemies and full-fledged people would help rob them of some of their leaders' power.

[puebloknot]

16. "...reminding their followers that they haven't always been downtrodden..."

It would be interesting to apply this concept to the United States of America. Which chunks of American land shall we cede back to it's native peoples, to remind them that they haven't always been downtrodden? (As they certainly are now.)

[knitter4democracy]

19. How about respecting our First Nations people and treating them with respect?

Honoring our treaties would be a great first step. Let's start with that and then move onto teaching honest history in our schools, rather than whitewash over much of what our government did to our brothers and sisters. After that, we can talk reparations and all, if needed.

[puebloknot]

21. Yes, that would be a start.

I have Cherokee blood on both sides of my family. I never knew it until I was in my 50s. There was an under-the-radar allusion to having "Indian blood" that was quickly hushed up if any questions were asked. I've learned that my paternal grandparents both threw away letters from the Dawes Commission, granting them land in Oklahoma. I cry when I think about their history, which I never was able to talk about with them.

When I was 50, I enrolled in some Native American Studies classes at the Santa Barbara Community College. Wow, what I never learned in high school, and what I never found time to explore when I was younger. Yeah, I had heard of Wounded Knee, but I was busy reading about Germany and WWII, since I'd lived there and my father was in the war.

I read "American Holocaust" and "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." I saw "500 Natons." I had never been a flag-waving patriot, but I was shocked at the true history of the founding of this country. And people claim that a conspiracy like 9/11 couldn't have been carried out by the government! You just can't keep a secret like that! But I digress.

Reparations are much needed. And not as the Christian hand of charity, helping out those poor benighted peoples who need to be uplifted. We need a First Nations Marshall Plan.

[knitter4democracy]

22. First Nations Marshall Plan--great idea!

There's so much that needs to be done. I don't know about land transfers, since I can't think of a way that makes sense for everyone. Land isn't what some tribes need, anyway. When I visited Hopi Mesas in college (part of a multicultural class for my education degree), I was sickened. It looked like barrios I'd worked in in the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua. We shouldn't let anyone live like that, but especially not people under federal care and support. The Rez is too poor and too hard to live well on for most tribes, but assimilation isn't the full answer, either.

[puebloknot]

24. When young people leave the Rez and get a law degree, for example...

...it's very hard to go back to the Rez. With the best intentions to help their people, they're different because they're educated. And just as I left my fundamentalist Christian upbringing by the time I was five (in my head, anyway), a White Man's college degree does cause people to question some of their people's ancient traditions in light of modern life.

All that has to be worked out, but first, people have to be able to eat, sleep, love...with dignity.

Of course, we can't at this late date redistribute land very effectively. I remember one story in, I think it was possibly Upstate New York somewhere, where a land lease with a 100-year term, granted by a Native tribe, expired, and caused all kinds of havoc for the town which existed on that land. Suddenly, those uppity Indians wanted to be paid current-day and reasonable prices for continuing the lease! But what were they going to do? Evict a whole town?

[JonathanInTelAviv]

27. How was that settled, do you know? n/t

[knitter4democracy]

28. It is a real problem.

That month I taught at Chinle High School, I had students who wanted to get away and never come back, college being their goal, and others who were scared of the idea of leaving. Thank goodness the Navajo have a college on the Rez now, but it doesn't offer everything people want.

It's similar to the huge problems of rural poverty we have in the US, only the Native Americans have it far worse. Plus, there are treaties that aren't being honored.

[puebloknot]

29. I'd like to see a sheet of paper with a line running down the middle...

...vertically, and in Column 1, Treaties Honored by the U.S., and in the second Column, Treaties *Not* Honored by the U.S. That's, of course, for the First Nations. Let's not even get into promises made and not kept outside the country.

On another topic entirely: Was it Madame LaFarge who inspired your knitter4democracy name? I'm a knitter and a French Revolution aficionado, so your name intrigues me.

[puebloknot]

18. BTW, I forgot to say that I found your last paragraph here of great interest!

[knitter4democracy]

20. I've often wondered why we don't read up on that history.

Terrorists killed tsars and kings and Archduke Ferdinand. Many powerful men and women were killed by anarchists, communists, and nationalist groups. Why aren't they still killing today? Most of those groups ultimately were given a political voice through taking over the government (Russia) or through political parties (Green Party, nationalist parties, etc.).

Why can't we listen to Al Qaeda and honor the things that make sense and ultimately water down their power through blending their needs with others' needs and such? They don't want bases near Mecca--that makes sense. Why would we have bases there? We wouldn't be happy if they had huge bases near Washington DC or Jerusalem. We keep those bases as staging areas for Iraq and anywhere else in the Middle East and to help prop up the Saudi royal family--not good enough reasons, frankly. They want Muslims to have respect and power, and why shouldn't they? They are a huge part of humanity, so demonizing a small faction as our enemy just makes others feel like they're our enemy as well.

I'm sure I'm making sense. :blush:

[puebloknot]

23. You *are* making sense.

We didn't want Russian missiles in Cuba!

All people want the dignity of being able to just live. Every culture has its testerone-driven young warriors who need to be directed away from violence. I must say, though, that just as Christianity became a force for political murder (The Inquisition, The Crusades), so has Al Qaeda. We first have to find a way to get the bulldog to let go of the pants leg before we can engage in meaningful dialog. It's the chicken and egg problem we've always faced. Are we "demonizing" when someone is demonstrating "demonic" behavior?

America has much to answer for, and Americans have to wake up to their true history -- all over the globe. And we need to understand Muslim culture as it existed before being distored through history.

Right after 9/11, new people moved in as my neighbors -- clearly from the Middle East. I knocked on their door to welcome them, and they enthusiastically invited me in. Within the first ten minutes of conversation, the man was explaining that they were *Persian* -- from Iran -- and that they were *not* terrorists! I felt so badly for his need to explain himself. And I could tell they were glad to have someone who was willing to be a friend. The woman had a 30-year-old sewing machine just like mine and liked to sew, as did I. She also had a 30-year-old child, a lot like mine, except hers was a son and mine was a daughter. We shared meals and plants and ways to cut our own hair. He was an auto mechanic, as my father had been.

Your basic premise is correct: We have to come clean as The Superpower with blood on its hands. We have to find a way to strengthen the peaceful elements of Muslim society and disarm, psychologically and literally, the radical extremists. And how radically extreme would we be if we were deprived of the basic elements of a normal human existence?

The Jews struggle with that question, as do the "Palestinians."

Good talking with you!

[puebloknot]

17. JonathanInTelAviv, welcome to DU

Thanks for those links. My purpose in posting my message last night was to alert people to the possibility of their catching a *really* interesting documentary about the history of Jews, Christians, and Jews living in relative harmony in the distant past. It's an idea to savor for our own time.

Although I certainly don't credit a lot of information that comes out of Fox News, this clip is attributed to Al-Jazeera, and unless it's a complete fabrication, is of great concern for the peace of the world:

CAIRO, Egypt — Al Qaeda's No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call in a new videotape released Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from "Spain to Iraq."

In the message broadcast by Al-Jazeera television, Ayman al-Zawahiri, second in command to Usama bin Laden, said that Al Qaeda now views "all the world as a battlefield open in front of us."

I am not Jewish, Jonathan, but my best friend, Geule (Julie here in America) is. I have spent many hours at her dinner table, listening to the many stories of flight to safety of her fellow Israelis and their parents, during the WWII period and following. I have also listened to their anguish as they express pride in and fear for Israel's future. I have heard their discussions regarding Israel's leadership -- their support for some policies, their opposition to others. One friend, David, born in Iraq and forced out with his Jewish parents when he was very small, said at one of those gatherings: "They (the "Palestinians") want what everyone wants. Until they have a safe place to sleep and a guarantee that they can feed their children, we all have a problem."

That documentary I recommended was compelling for me because it stirred, once again, my own feeling that we are going through a period of extremism in this country with regard to Israel. She is not without her faults, certainly. I fear for her if she continues her current policies against what have come to be called "Palestinian" peoples. But when I look at the map of the Middle East, I see Israel as a miniscule country, surrounded by Arab territories. For those who oppose the very founding of Israel, I have to ask what solution *they* would have embraced. Where in this world were Jews supposed to go after the Holocaust to find safety? They tried returning to Poland, and we know how that worked out.

And for American liberals who object to Israel's existence on the particular piece of real estate she currently occupies, I have to wonder if they've given thought to the fact that they live on real estate obtained in the biggest land grab in history -- the American Holocaust which resulted in the murder and extinction of whole tribes on the North American continent.

There is a need for the long view of history with regard to Israel, in my opinion. I have struggled to understand the history of Israel's founding, the arguments on both sides about removal of current occupants to fashion an Israeli state. (I am part Cherokee, and the story of the Trail of Tears comes to mind whenever I think about this subject.) What I want to see is a balanced approach, an acknowledgement from the world, and this country, that the suffering on both sides of the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict is equally legitimate.

What I do not support is Israel's current association with the worst elements of American society -- the right-wing fundamentalist Christians who are exporting their perversions to Israel. I know not where you stand on that, but I grew up with such fundamentalists and I am simply appalled at Israel's allowing them a foothold in a modern Jewish state. My Israeli friends have used that expression we often hear: "Israel needs all the friends she can get." Indeed, but not "friends" whose secret agenda is to pull off tawdry "Christian" theater in terms of bringing on the end of the world and the return of the Christ who will take his ultimate revenge on those Jews who didn't vote for him! It may be that Israel is waiting with bated breath, as are we in America, for the end of the Bush regime and some kind of return to normalcy. It may be that I'm naive, and the attributions of an AIPAC stranglehold on American policy has some legitimacy. Finding truth is quite difficult when there are fanatics on both sides of the issue who simply resort to verbal violence instead of holding a reasoned conversation -- some examples of which we see in this thread.

Returning to the links you've posted, I see it as entirely reasonable that Spain is fighting against the terrorism proposed (and carried out) by Al Qaeda. For those who sympathize with extremist Muslim elements who want to take back areas they controlled in the dim mists of time, to show they have not *always* been a downtrodden people, I am forced to ask how far back in time we are to go with this concept, and why that idea does not enjoy legitimacy with regard to downtrodden Jews wanting to "go home to Israel," after WWII? Who can say which peoples have been the most downtrodden? I'd put my bet on the Jews as being at least as downtrodden as any other group!

I am posing these questions with sincerity, as someone without academic credentials in history, but also thankfully not conditioned to respond with a knee-jerk reaction when the word "Israel" turns up in a post. I invite responses to my comments here which may serve to broaden my understanding of Middle Eastern history. I hope that there will not be any further "potshots" without serious thought and/or attribution, to clutter up an important subject.

And all I did was post a link to a great historical documentary! :)

[JonathanInTelAviv]

26. PuebloKnot

Wow! Thank you for writing such an amazingly thoughtful, thought-provoking post. It seems to me that you are truly striving to understand these issues with your head and your heart and your heritage. I don't think there are many who have succeeded to the extent you have, unfortunately.

As for the "American liberals" and hard-line Palestinians and many others in the world who object to Israel's existence, I don't even bother arguing with them. That argument was settled, permanently and irrevocably, in 1947 by the UN, and I'm glad that the US, including the Democratic Party, is overwhelmingly supportive of Israel. Israelis are aware of this support, and appreciate it. And the overwhelming majority of Israelis, including some people who had been very hard-line (Ariel Sharon, Yitzhak Rabin, and Shimon Peres, etc.) came to the conclusion that ultimately the Palestinians should have a state also.

I believe your statement that it is necessary to take "the long view of history with regard to Israel" is profound, but I also believe that in order to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both sides will have to give up some of their dreams, dreams which are based on history. For the Palestinians that means no population transfers into Israel. For Israel, that means cancelling plans for new settlements, and the uprooting of existing ones, in areas which are part of the historic Jewish homeland, Judea and Samaria.

I remember when the Oslo peace process started I told a good friend of mine that I thought negotiations would be completed quickly, because the Palestininans were tired of living in squalor, and the Israelis were tired of enforcing the occupation. Unfortunately, while Israel was ready to bring the conflict to an end, and made generous offers to do that, the Palestinians responded with the second Intifada. This was when I, and many others, stopped going to peace demonstrations, because we saw that something was wrong, there was no Palestinian partner with whom to move forward.

When Abbas took over after Arafat (a truly despicable man), Israelis again hoped that maybe something would change, and we gave up all our settlements in the Gaza strip, as well as others in parts of Judea and Samaria, and had plans for more of this. It was at this point that the Palestinians started shooting Kassam missiles at us, and that is where we are today.

The problem as I see it is that large parts of the Moslem world in general, and the Palestinians in particular, have not come to accept Israel's existence, even after 60 years of independence. Quite frankly, it's an unfortunate fact that non-Moslem peoples throughout the Middle East find it difficult to exist under Moslem rule. Just look at what has happened to the Christian, Bahai, Yazidi, Coptic, Assyrian, etc. communities, not to mention the conflicts between various Moslem sects.

As for the right-wing fundamentalist Christians, let me say that I also do not accept their end-of-times theology, nor some of their social policies. And I'm sure some of them don't accept our non-acceptance of Jesus. But Israel needs their support, just as we need that of the Democrats, in order to prevent a very real end-of-times for Israel.

Here in Israel, we have our own fundamentalists, and they are a rapidly grown, politically power group. I don't accept lots of things about them, and I know they don't accept my being, well, not like them. Keeping Israel a democracy will be a challenge in the future.

Again, thanks for writing such a wonderful post, and thank you for welcoming me to DU.

[rAVES]

13. This program is clearly anti semitic.

How dare anyone look objectively at the state of Israel.