Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Thom Hartmann: Would a draft end all wars?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Political Videos Donate to DU
 
thomhartmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 10:47 AM
Original message
Thom Hartmann: Would a draft end all wars?
 
Run time: 06:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siLuDuraVeI
 
Posted on YouTube: March 17, 2011
By YouTube Member: TheBigPictureRT
Views on YouTube: 12
 
Posted on DU: March 17, 2011
By DU Member: thomhartmann
Views on DU: 691
 
The Big Picture with Thom Hartmann on RT TV "live" 9pm and 11pm check www.thomhartmann.com/tv for local listings
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
bcool Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Two things would end all wars....
1. A draft with NO exemptions

2. An immediate surtax on ALL income to cover the additional cost of the war.

I bet we'd never fight again, unless we were being invaded. It's so simple, but it will never happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FailureToCommunicate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Agreed!
PS: You are a model of restraint in numbers of posts

Go Tigers!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crowman1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. How about drafting the sons and daughters of people who work in the defense industry?
Edited on Thu Mar-17-11 11:40 AM by Crowman1979
Everyone from the CEO to the janitor. Even those who are contracted to a defense contractor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. It would sure as hell help. As long as there are no exemptions
maybe the "controllers" would think about it for
more than 15 minutes before declaring war on whoever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. We've created a warrior class.
I agree with most of what he said.

By going to an all-volunteer military, we have disconnected most people from the consequences of war. People who volunteer for the military are either desperate for a way out of poverty, or they have a patriotic calling to military service to their country. After service, many veterans are chewed up and spit back into society no better off than they were before, and many of them go on to work to perpetuate the interests of the military. Often fiercely and blindly patriotic to the service they dedicated themselves to, they now vote or are employed looking after the interests of the military. Thus we perpetuate a warrior class of citizens.

I think mandatory service would be a good thing. Not only would it teach good discipline to kids who sorely need it, but it would put everyone's children at risk during times of war. Teabaggers would not be nearly so eager to go invade the next resource-rich country if their own children and grandchildren were the ones being sent against their will to secure it.

However, I do disagree with Mr. Hartmann's ending of his piece, which he pretty much blundered into when he spoke of Thomas Jefferson's dislike of standing armies:

"The first strong advocate for mandatory military service in the united states was Thomas Jefferson who in 1787 fought for a year for a ban on standing armies during times of peace, replaced by a national civilian militia with mandatory service, to be written into the constitution as its second amendment. And that's how the first draft of the second amendment started. That there should be no standing army during times of peace. That every male from 17-47 should be part of a local militia, and that in order for those citizen militias to be well ordered, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. In the compromise the first part was dropped in the debate about the draft and so today we have the NRA and a massive for-profit war machine."

Thomas Jefferson did indeed dislike the idea of standing armies during times of peace, as did many of the founders. The reason was not because they wanted everyone to share the burden of war efforts, however. The reason was because they feared a concentration of power in any one branch of the government. This is why our entire government was set up as a series of checks and balances - to prevent such concentrations of power. They feared the concentration of power that a standing army would present and the power it would give to the entity that wielded it. That is why they did not like the idea of standing armies, and that is the reason they decentralized the military, opting instead for each state to be responsible for its own military force. In this manner, the founders figured that it would be unlikely for states to gang together to oppress other states. This would also have, of course, the happy benefit that in order to engage in external wars all the states collectively would need to agree and donate their military forces and equipment to the cause. Imagine how many wars in our history might have been avoided if this were the case?

Here is what Alexander Hamilton had to say about standing armies:

"If circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude<,> that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens."

It's clear here that Hamilton felt that any standing army would not be a threat to similarly-armed and disciplined citizens.

Also, Mr. Hartman is incorrect in that the right of the people to keep and bear arms was not enumerated for the purpose of having ordered, or well-regulated militias. Here are the original drafts of the second amendment:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms."

"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

"A well regulated militia, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


The final version passed by the Senate was:

"A well regulated militia being the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The House version was:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

It is important to understand what "regulated" means in 18th century vernacular. Think "intestines" not "rules". That is, when you have a well-regulated digestive system, it means that it is in good working order. It does not mean that your digestive system operates under a strict set of rules. A well-regulated militias was simply a militia in good working order.

It is quite true that since the militias were to be made up of armed citizens that in order for the militias to be in good working order the people would need be armed. But you will also note that the second amendment, through all of its drafts and final renditions, always enumerated the right to keep and bear arms to the people, not the militias.

I am certain that this was quite deliberate. The ultimate power was intentionally reserved to the people, so that their interests would ultimately hold sway in any armed conflict. They probably feared that even the institution of the militias could be corrupted or usurped, and in fact they were - in 1903 the state militias were federalized, forming the National Guard. From then on the state military forces served as an adjunct to, rather than a counter to, federal military power.

Mr. Hartmann implies that the people were to be armed only so that the militias would be "well ordered" (should be regulated). This is not true. It is true that a well-ordered (regulated) militia intended to be made up of armed citizens does require armed citizens in order to exist. But it does not also follow that the only reason the people are armed is so that the militia can exist.

The right to keep and bear arms was repeatedly reserved to the people because they are the ultimate stakeholders in liberty.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. War is for dummies
Really, blowing up things and killing children never solved anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. A NO EXEMPTIONS DRAFT!!!
That and NO wars on the credit card. Not that I'll live to see it come to be!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Draft Age
Only people 55 and over would be eligible for a military draft.

It's fair - at least older people got to enjoy a good life before they have to go out and risk life and limb and sanity to serve their country.

It's not fair to put young people through such horror and hell. Let them enjoy life for a while.

That America has become so casual and tolerant of war is amazing. Like America is always in a war somewhere or training armies somewhere.

I'm 56 years old and occasionally contemplate giving up my life for what I believe if it would help bring a better future for young people.

Like do a Tim McVeigh at a lower Fairfield County County Club on Stockbroker Bonus Day.

-90% Jimmy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Political Videos Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC