Spitting on Vietnam Vets

[Pryderi]

Is this a Rambo created urban myth?

[Squatch]

1. Well, according to my Dad...No.

[Warpy]

6. I know someone who claims to have been spat on

and he also claims to have rearranged the high school punk's face afterward.

He was in VVAW and doesn't have a reason to lie about it.

[formerrepuke]

60. delete

delete

[Captain Hilts]

2. A plea for examples went unanswered.

I never understood why they'd be spat on. They were draftees.

[Squatch]

3. Not all Vietnam vets were draftees.

[Captain Hilts]

13. No, they weren't. My brother for example...

I grew up in the navy community and I never heard of that kind of thing happening.

But I remember reading that some historian was looking for some first-hand acconts of being spat on and didn't get any.

A friend of mine's dad was an army officer and his mother got hassled a bit while she was taking college classes when his dad was in Vietnam. I think officers were trusted less than enlisted personnel. I guess a higher percentage were volunteers or lifers.

[BrotherBuzz]

56. This draftee wasn't spat on because I was invisible

I was able to travel through airports without a single person looking at, or speaking to me. It was like I was wearing a magical invisibility cloak.

[Jed Dilligan]

82. Wasn't the draft only for the Army?

USAF, Navy, and Marine vets were all volunteers--as far as I know.

[SteppingRazor]

4. Oy. Popcorn anyone? The truth is muddled...

you've got a great book, The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam, by Jerry Lembcke (see a teaser for it here: http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350 at the Vietnam Veterans Against the War site). That books points to the utter lack of news reports of spiting incidents from the Vietnam War, instead citing stories propagated by the Nixon campaign in 1968.

But at the same time, you've got many people — up to and including liberals and even a DUer or three — who maintain it happened to them.


Who's to say? I wasn't even born yet. :shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Which DUer?

First I have heard that. Interesting. You don't happen to remember who?

[ProfessorGAC]

10. I've PM'd You

The Professor

[SteppingRazor]

11. Calling out a DUer on a thread they're not participating in is against the rules. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. How is this calling them out?

I guess we have different understandings of what that rule means. I was thinking that it would be against the rules for us to talk badly about another DUer. Like if I was to tell someone in another thread "that SteppingRazor is so nasty!' that would be against the rules. But just asking for a name seems okay, isn't it?

p.s. I don't really think you are nasty, just an example so I could make my point. :)

[SteppingRazor]

19. OOOOO!! Personal attack! Personal Attack! I'm alerting!

You called me nasty!! :P


Kidding aside, I'd just rather not bring up any names because I don't know the DUer in question, and I don't know if he/she wants to get involved. That's all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Okay that's cool.

Thanks. :)

[Virginia Dare]

16. Yes, I believe there is someone here who claims it happened to them..

I posed this question before and was thoroughly jumped on, so I'm sure they will show up here at some point.

[ThomWV]

14. Just like Reagan's "Welfare Cadillac" - just more Republican bullshit

They paint a picture for their supporters to hate - no matter if that picture represents anything remotely like reality.

[Jed Dilligan]

83. Is it possible that a certain number of people in any

demographic group during any era get spit on, and most of these incidents go unreported?

I wonder how many of these "incidents" were created by paranoid minds affected by Nixon propaganda. Could it be that vets spit on for other reasons--race, personal style, or simply being young men in other young men's territory--came to believe that they were spit on for being vets? Or even interpreted someone's (gross but neutral) spitting on the ground as an attack on themselves?

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Snopes it

There is nothing there. http://www.snopes.com/info/search/search.asp

Of course there will always be one vet who claims it happened. I see one already in this thread. But I have looked into this many many times and have yet to find one first hand account of any soldier being spit on. It's always 'well I know a guy whose brother got spit on'.

[DemBones DemBones]

41. And Snopes is hardly a left-leaning site. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. I have never had any inclination Snopes wasn't neutral

What have I missed?

[DemBones DemBones]

51. I just meant Snopes wouldn't cover up for "spitting peaceniks."

And some people think it leans right. I haven't seen anything to convince me of that, though.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. The Vietnam vets I encountered were part of the demonstrations.

I'm a vet who declined going to Vietnam and joined an outfit called the California Veteran's Movement in around 1970. Most of the members were Vietnam Vets who didn't do much spitting but raised a lot of hell about the war and what they endured.

[ThomWV]

9. I did 3 tours - came back 3 times - never was anyone so much as discourteous to me

Never happened. Oh, and I passed though San Francisco airport 6 times (between '67 and 70) in uniform with a whole bunch of stuff on the chest and not so much as one person ever said a word to me.

So as far as I can tell you if it did happen it certainly was not widespread.


By the way, I can say the same thing for Denver, Miami, DC, and Atlanta.

[DemBones DemBones]

38. I believe you. I never knew any vets who were hassled,

never knew anyone who was anti-war who was anti-troops. We were anti-LBJ and then anti-Nixon.

Peaceniks were hassled by "patriots" of the freeper sort. You could be hassled just for having long hair in those days, and I'm talking about girls being hassled for long hair! It was worse for guys who had long hair, of course. But it always amazed me when people shunned girls who had long hair. :shrug:

Girls could also be hassled for not wearing lipstick, for wearing sandals, for wearing jeans, for wearing short skirts. What a weird transitional era the mid-late Sixties were!

[vireo]

69. Yes, harrassment of hippies was much more common

RWers of course are more prone to violence. I was physically assaulted for wearing a peace armband as was my friend.

I also was barred entry from a restaurant and accused of shoplifting just because I had long hair (I am male).

Although I never felt any animosity toward returned veterans, I suspect the My Lai massacre may have fueled what level of "blame the troops" hostility existed.

[TahitiNut]

58. We've been through this before, bro.

You're demonstrating it didn't happen to all of us. Indeed, it didn't happen to most of us. But it did happen to some of us. The whole Lembcke 'debunking' serves only to suggest that it didn't happen as much as some believe and wasn't attributable to some programmatic behavior of 'hippies' or the 'left.' However, since it did happen to me, I find this DU (and 'left') obsession with denial to be more than slightly offensive.

[Raven]

15. Nope, it happened. I was there. When these guys came back

from Vietnam, they were easily recognized because they all had a mustache and a dirty tan. My husband brought an anitque French rifle back on the plane with him it was a gift from his South Vietnamese "counterpart" and there was a real scene at the airport when people saw it. It was ugly and I wondered at the time what people thought these guys were doing over there, playing marbles?

[ThomWV]

18. Where ... when?

Spit on him? That is a much different thing than questioning a guy in an airport who is carrying a gun.

[Raven]

20. Yes. Dulles airport, January 1971.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Did anyone spit on him? nt

[Buzz Clik]

17. I always assumed it was bullshit, until a dear and trusted friend told me she witnessed it.

I wish it were an urban legend.

[Morrisons Ghost]

21. According to my Dad

He wasn't spit on but they might as well have from the looks and the comments some people made.He said he was called a baby killer.He also said that the people who treated him the best were WWII vets,welcomed him home and thanked him for his service.He loves the guys from that era to this day.

[madrchsod]

22. who knows for sure but

one can always count on assholes and/or provocateurs in any group.

[johnnie]

23. I'm sure it happened somewhere

Back then there were some pretty heavy radicals and there are some now. I doubt that every soldier who stepped on American soil after coming back were drenched in spit. I think that the whole thing has taken on a new life of its own and the myth has become distorted.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I don't think it was as widespread as some would think. As I said, there has always been and there will forever be assholes on this planet. I have never heard anyone I know who served back then say they were spit on.

[michael.098762001]

25. Drooling on the Vietnam Vets

Slate online covered this controversy,
http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/
Drooling on the Vietnam Vets

[michael.098762001]

26. Spitting Report, Part II:Civilian Airports and Attempted Debunkings.--

http://volokh.com/posts/1172040644.shtml

[michael.098762001]

28. Spitting Report V: Servicemen and Anti-War Activists at the Airport.--

http://volokh.com/posts/1172051190.shtml

[johnnie]

34. Were you spit on? n/t

[woodsprite]

24. We had 2 Vietnam vets thank us last night.

They attended our Memorial Day concert. During the concert we asked that anyone who had served, please stand up. We gave them an ovation and thanked them. They came to our open board meeting last night and said that they felt soooo dirty when they came back from Vietnam, that the US shouldn't have been there, they didn't want to go but received orders. One said that he was even spit on by people he didn't know when he came back and that most of his life has been spent trying to pretend that time didn't exist. They said in all of their years, it's the only time that anyone has ever publically thanked them for their service to this country and they wanted to let us know how good it made them feel.

THAT made my Memorial Day! :)

[woodsprite]

29. The spitting - probably resulted from college atmosphere, anti-war feelings.

and he just happened to be the guy in uniform they were taking their frustrations out on. He represented the establishment they were protesting against. At least, that was his take on it. He said they didn't know him from Jack.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. Please read my post # 32. Also read ThomV's posts about

all the times he went through airports in uniform without being hassled.

The spitting stories all arose after the war ended.

Anyone can claim he was spit on or knows someone who was spit on but no one can prove it.

[tabasco]

27. Oh no! Don't you know - - we liberals HATE veterans!

Even though I'm a combat vet myself - - I HATE myself. That's right. I spit on myself all the time.

SUCH UTTER BULLSHIT.

Great thread for bringing out the under-the-radar types from under their rocks, though.

[Submariner]

31. Debunked - We discussed this a couple of years ago on DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=122506

Debunking a spitting image

By Jerry Lembcke | April 30, 2005

STORIES ABOUT spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/04/30/debunking_a_spitting_image/

[erpowers]

40. Michael Smith

Has anyone done any work to debunk the story of Michael Smith, the guy who spit on Jane Fonda? He claimed he spit on her as payback for being spit on after he came back from Vietnam.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. That happened here in Kansas City

and the newspaper did a search and could find no proof that any soldier had been spit upon EVER.

[RedEarth]

45. I was in college during that time and knew a lot of

guys that went to Viet Nam(for those that are wondering, I got a medical deferment). Not one of them has ever said anything about being spit on. Vets returning from Viet Nam weren't treated as heroes, but, I never remember hearing, or reading, anything about returning troops being spit until years later. Obviously it could have happened someplace, but I tend to think, if it happened at all, it was very isolated.

[TahitiNut]

66. 2.5 million of us served in Viet Nam. How many would need to be spit on for it to be true?

One? Ten? One hundred? One thousand? Ten thousand?

If it happened to ten thousand of us, that'd be 1-in-250. You could know 100 Viet Nam veterans and, mathematically, the probability that you'd NOT know one or more who'd been spat on would be 67%!

That's assuming you know all 100 well enough for them to even talk about something that's both emotionally painful and likely to evoke disbelief ... something I seriously doubt.

For perspective, if it happened to only one thousand Viet Nam vets then the chances that any group of 100 DIDN'T include someone to whom it happened is over 96%.

[DemBones DemBones]

32. It was never reported until after the war ended, which is quite odd.

The anti-war movement was not exactly popular with most Americans so if that had been happening, I think it would have been reported. We lived in a very small rural town back then and if the local newspaper had heard anything like that, it would have been reported.

I grew up in the military and knew quite a few guys who served in Viet Nam, never heard of it happening, never heard of any vets being hassled. Peaceniks got hassled, not vets.

I never knew anyone who opposed the war who called troops "baby killers" or blamed them for anything, though some radicals probably did. But it's important to remember that there were government infiltrators in anti-war groups; think trolls at DU, trying to make us look bad.

People did chant "Hey, hey, LBJ, How many kids did you kill today" but that put the blame on the guy who issued the orders, not the guys who carried them out.

The only vets I heard of being hassled were the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), who were sometimes hassled by VFW type vets (WW II vets, mostly) who didn't think they ought to protest the war. No spitting, though.

A guy who'd been active in VVAW was curious about the after-war reports of protesters spitting on vets. He did extensive investigations, could find no media reports, no police reports, nothing to support the allegation that it ever happened. He wrote a book about it, which you can probably still find with a search.

Every time we discuss this, someone claims he was spat on or his father was spat on. Obviously, it can't be proved that not one vet was ever spat on -- you can't prove a negative -- but if it occurred at all, it certainly was not widespread.

[RedEarth]

52. Peaceniks not only got hassled, they got killed..... Kent State comes to mind

...some of those killed were merely kids who went to watch an anti-war rally. I too never heard of read of any vets being spit on....if it happened it was isolated.

[JHB]

35. No, unfortunately not a myth, but "we" weren't the only ones doing it.

First of all, incidents of "our" side spitting on returning vets did happen, but with nowhere neat the frequency that RW myth-making would have you believe.

(I use quotes for "we" and "our" because I was in diapers at the time. I'd spit up on anyone.)

However, it's often (and very conveniently) forgotten these days that some of the worst abuse returning vets received wasn't from long-haired college students. It was from a lot of "greatest generation" vets.

This came up at Hullabaloo recently. Read up (check the comments, too):
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/loudmouths-by-digby-following-up-on-his.html

Following up on his earlier post about the American Legion (which I also wrote about here last week) Rick Perlstein reminds us all that the dirty hippies weren't the only ones who treated the Vietnam Vets like dirt. Indeed, the American Legion was among the worst offenders:


They were the kind of veterans who - Gerald Nicosia tells the story in his history of Vietnam Veterans Against the War - greeted the antiwar veterans who had marched 86 miles from Morristown, New Jersey to Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, just like George Washington's army in 1877. The World War II veterans heckled them:

"Why don't you go to Hanoi?"

"We won our war, they didn't, and from the looks of them, they couldn't."

A Vietnam vets hobbled by on crutches. One of the old men wondered whether he had been "shot with marijuana or shot in battle."

And personally, I remember how it was such a big deal back in the 80's when Vietnam vets were finally "accepted" as "real" veterans.

[DemBones DemBones]

49. Don't say WE were doing it.

You said you were in diapers so you can't know, but I was a young adult and I can tell you no one ever claimed to be spit on until long after the war. See my post #32 for more.

I'm not surprised by the account of the American Legion guys heckling the VVAW. My dad was career military and a WW II vet, and he refused to join the American Legion because it's just about having a club with cheap booze. An older friend who fought in Korea said he thinks the "Greatest Generation" vets who get on tv and claim they remember every detail of D-Day are full of it, that nobody could remember all the details of a battle even the next day, much less decades later. FWIW. I was never in combat myself.

There were some really nasty members of the "Greatest Generation" who would hassle all young people. If they saw a girl with long hair, they'd say how dirty her hair was, when any fool could see her hair was clean and shiny. I got hassled for not wearing lipstick and for wearing sandals and jeans. No one ever said my long hair was dirty, as far as I know, but they said it to friends of mine.

[Hobarticus]

67. This is a dirty little secret...

The very vets who fill out the ranks of the Legion and the VFW treated Nam-era vets as losers and malcontents, even if they weren't protestors, until the 80's. The "greatest generation" wasn't always as such.

[ieoeja]

70. To this day, 3 out of 4 American Legion posts where I grew up are hurting.

One of the four welcomed Vietnam vets with open arms. The others treated them just as you say. The decent guys in those posts would direct them to that one nearby post where Vietnam vets were welcome. As a result, 40 years later one post is always looking for good causes on which to spend their annual budget surplus while the other three are barely staying afloat.

When I hear the "spitting on them" meme I always bring up the fact that where I grew up it was the World War II vets doing the spitting.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. No, It Really Happened. Pretty Disgusting, But It Did Happen.

[Arkansas Granny]

37. None of the Vietnam vets that I know has ever said that they were

spit on when they returned. That doesn't mean that it never happened to anyone, but I don't think it was a widespread phenomenon like some would have you believe. I think it's probably one of those things that might have had some factual beginning, but it grew as it was passed along to the point that today it seems it must have been commonplace.

[BlooInBloo]

39. Yup. Shit's made up - based upon the impossibility of directly proving a negative.

EDIT: And magically, EVERYBODY knows SOMEBODY who heard from A GUY that it happened to SOME SOLDIER. Of course, not a soul knows who this soldier is. Unless he's one who's already been debunked as a liar.

[MH1]

43. Swastikas on the American Legion Hall in Havertown PA on Memorial Day

Don't know about spitting on vets returning from Vietnam, but it seems to me vandalizing a veteran's meeting hall with Nazi symbolism is just as bad.

Not going to speculate about who did it though. Just that there are whack jobs in every era willing to be highly insulting in their disrespect of someone or some symbol they disagree with.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. No.

Classic urban myth, Daffy Duck in Disneyland story.

It may have actually happened, but we'll never know, and the vast majority of it is bullshit.

[Blue Diadem]

47. A veteran on the Monday news said it had happened to him.

It was a Memorial day tribute in one of the neighboring towns. I'd just walked into the room, so I don't even know why he brought it up..other than he was saying he was a Viet Nam vet and he was spit on when he came back compared to his Dad, a WWII vet who was met with cheers.

[Enthusiast]

50. I don't believe it, sorry.............

It's just more obfuscation by the fascists. This never happened. Just like steak and lobster with food stamps and the 200 mpg carburetor. Anyone can lie and many do. Repeat it often enough..................

[Blue Diadem]

73. DH and I discussed it at the time and we both were shocked that

he'd bring it up while they were actually there to honor his father. It was so out of place and a very odd comment.

I had two brothers in Nam, one did two tours and I don't remember either of them ever mentioning anything about being greeted badly upon their return to the states.

[ieoeja]

72. Was it a WW-II vet spitting on him? n/t

[devilgrrl]

48. It happened, chickenhawks with marriage deferments and hardhats needed to do something to keep busy.

eom

[ComerPerro]

54. like most conservative myths, it probably happened occasionally, somewhere, and then

the right wing grabbed it and decided to turn it into "Every anti-war hippie personally spat on every Vietnam vet"

[KoKo]

55. Yep....n/t

[Hobarticus]

61. We have a winner!

How come we never hear about vets saying someone shook their hand, welcomed them home, or otherwise had a similar positive experience upon returning home?

You won't, because it isn't convenient.

[ComerPerro]

62. its just one of those things you do. "Oh, yeah, I was spit on, I remember it!"

[Hobarticus]

64. Invariably by a long-haired freaky type...

In Jesus sandals and love beads, foul-mouthed and smelling bad.

[ComerPerro]

65. you know this.

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. Ahem

[MyNameGoesHere]

59. rewards are offered to anyone that can show

a pic of bush serving in the ANG during the awol years. None yet. Surely soldiers being spit upon would have made at least 1 blurry photo? Maybe? None yet?

[Hobarticus]

63. Why don't we ever hear of any good experiences returning Nam vets had?

I never hear about anyone shaking their hand, welcoming them home, a friendly smile...nothing of the sort. Only spitting hippies.

You'd think that a positive, welcoming experience would be as common, if not more so, than a negative one. But I've yet to hear of that.

Wonder why that is?

[TahitiNut]

68. Who cared enough to listen?

Speaking for myself, I did my best to avoid being recognized as a Viet Nam veteran. It was like being a leper, I'd guess (not knowing any lepers). It was even difficult to account for the time on my resume ... and something that 'conventional wisdom' said to omit.

To this day, not even my immediate family has ever expressed much interest. In a way, it's probably a lot like having spent time in prison - something not seriously discussed in 'polite company.' I now freely acknowledge it, though ... if only to watch for the awkward change of subject. It's a fascinating social dynamic.

[Hobarticus]

71. True...

I completely understand how that would be difficult for you.

I just don't understand why no one comes forward to at least counter the "spitting hippy" stereotype. There's a couple here on this thread, but it seems when this comes up in the media, there's rarely another viewpoint offered, even now.

Did anyone, outside of family and friends, ever say anything postive to you? Welcome home? Good to see you? Can't imagine what that would've been like, TahitiNut.

And by the way, thanks for your service, and welcome home. I say it to every vet I meet, even now.

[TahitiNut]

74. Thanks.

I found supportive people after I returned ... but the support was in the form of acceptance and basic human respect rather than inquiry, analysis, or pity. (I'll never forget Inez. She touched my life profoundly.) I doubt I'd have sought or accepted any other kind. I had to 'recover' both from Viet Nam and from a marriage gone in the shitter - the kind of 'homecoming' many had to face. It wasn't simple and it's not really possible to segregate the impacts.

It wasn't until the 90s that I received any invitation to discuss the experience ... and that was from an AP American History teacher at the local high school who, each year, invited a couple of Viet Nam vets to come and speak and answer questions from the students. It was a VERY difficult task - to even begin to portray to teens of the 90s what it was like to be in high school (or college) and face the prospect of a draft and the Viet Nam war, let alone what it was like in a combat zone, what it was like to count the days, what "the 60s" was like, and what 'coming home' meant for so many - and how it felt when we faced something so different than what we looked forward to as we counted down every single day. (Hell, even on DU the ignorance of those times runs rampant.) No small part of the difficulty is dispelling the misapprehension that the 'experience' was the same for all of us. It wasn't. The varieties of hell were extensive. No cookie-cutter suffices.

[rasputin1952]

75. I have heard some people say this happened, but I am inclined

to call bullshit.

Of all the people I served with, and many I have known throughout the years, not one person was spat upon. This is not to say it didn't happen at some time, but then again, flag burnings are rare, but seem to get an undo amount of coverage, even when it doesn't happen.

IF someone was spat upon, it is sad, but then again, did they say something to bring on such grievous behavior?

About the only people I would consider spitting upon, are those that call for the war in Iraq, and yet don't have the fortitude to join up and go for themselves. Armchair soldiers just piss me off to no end...:grr:

[TahitiNut]

76. I guess the Chimperor isn't the only one living in a 'faith-based' reality.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/11
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/372
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/3
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/366
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/367
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/365

:eyes:

[DearAbby]

77. I would like to know

where all the bodies are of those who did the spitting. Here are these guys who spent 12 months in hell, and you are telling me that they would allow spit to dry on their uniform, without tearing that person apart?

I was a young teenager then, I dont remember reports of spitting. The Vietnam vets I personally know, would kick ass and take names after. No way in hell, they would allow someone to spit on them.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

78. Excellent point.

DH was drafted along with 75% of his graduating class (the city was incorporated & slipped through the cracks for years. When SS finally realized their mistake they made up for lost time.)

DH was never, I repeat never, spat upon. He would have torn someone apart. He didn't come back a pacifist. I've asked every classmate of his I meet, plus others vets & have never heard of one instance. DH said he hit every bar & said that he was owed his free I-just-turned-21-&-you-gotta-buy-me-a-beer since he turned 21 in 'Nam. He never had a bar or a patron turn him down.

[TahitiNut]

79. Lord knows spit's more scary than mortars, rockets, and AK47's.

God knows that all Viet Nam vets were bombs waiting to go off ... borderline psychotics willing and able to single-handedly maim 2, 3, or even 4 insulting fools. Heaven knows that a returning Viet Nam veteran would gladly delay going home if arrested for battery. It's obvious that any guy who spent a year in a combat zone would overreact to someone spitting. Yep. That proves everything.

:eyes:

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

80. Yep. Some guy spits on me & I just automatically think,

"gee, I might get delayed going home." "Gee, I'm probably just overreacting to some mother fucker spitting on me, wouldn't want anyone thinking I'm a nut case". "Gee, maybe I'll just turn the other cheek & let 'em spit on that side too".

Here's how emotions work: someone does something that insulting & 99% of the population takes a swing. DH was in a laundry mat when a dryer belt went out. He yelled "incoming" & hit the floor. He didn't think, "oh, I'm home, nothing to worry about". He went down. Another time he was walking through a parking lot when a car backfired. He jumped in the bushes. Automatic reaction. If he'd been spit on he would have taken a swing. As would 100% of the vets I've met & 99% of the general population.

[TahitiNut]

81. Sorry ... but I speak from personal experience.

Yes, I dove under my desk at loud noises. Yes, I had 'automatic' (I call 'em "learned") reactions to backfires, slammed doors, dropped books ... much to the amusement of sociopaths in my office. I also got spat at. Guess what? It didn't make a loud noise. Preoccupied with getting to a flight, still jet-lagged from the MAC flight, tired from out-processing at OAB, still stunned by an unexpected early-out, and obsessed with what I'd confront when I got home, it took me seconds to even realize what happened. I'd been warned, though - told not to get in any fights with people. In late 1969 it wasn't unknown.

It's so easy to say what one "woulda done" ... until it actually happens. Reality is often a LOT different than the delusional "woulda-coulda-shoulda" world of CloudCuckooLand. I think the macho crap is just that. Crap.