"Debunking a Spitting Image"

[DemBones DemBones]

In the latest "Were soldiers returning from Vietnam spat on by antiwar protesters?" thread,
Submariner posted the link to an important article.

Since I can't copy the entire article here, I want to point out a couple of things stated in the article.

First, over 90% of Vietnam veterans reported they received a friendly homecoming from their peers in a 1971 Harris poll.

Second, the author, a Vietnam vet still involved in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and now a sociology professor, wrote a book in 1998 titled ''The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam." For that book, he researched the late 1960s and early 1970s and could find no news reports, no claims about veterans being spit on.

Third, he learned that many Vietnam vets later, around 1980, began to claim they were spat upon on their return to the U.S. Many of the vets claimed that people were lined up to spit at them in airports.


OK, now some quotes from the article, which appeared in the Boston Globe

Debunking a spitting image
By Jerry Lembcke | April 30, 2005

<snip>

The persistence of spat-upon Vietnam veteran stories suggests that they continue to fill a need in American culture. The image of spat-upon veterans is the icon through which many people remember the loss of the war, the centerpiece of a betrayal narrative that understands the war to have been lost because of treason on the home front. Jane Fonda's noisiest detractors insist she should have been prosecuted for giving aid and comfort to the enemy, in conformity with the law of the land.

<snip>

(In the paragraph immediately following the one above, the author discusses the betrayal mentality, the haunting fear that the warrior culture and masculinity itself broke down and cost us the war. That leads into the next paragraph.)

Many tellers of the spitting tales identify the culprits as girls, a curious quality to the stories that gives away their gendered subtext. Moreover, the spitting images that emerged a decade after the troops had come home from Vietnam are similar enough to the legends of defeated German soldiers defiled by women upon their return from World War I, and the rejection from women felt by French soldiers when they returned from their lost war in Indochina, to suggest something universal and troubling at work in their making. One can reject the presence of a collective subconscious in the projection of those anxieties, as many scholars would, but there is little comfort in the prospect that memories of group spit-ins, like Smith has, are just fantasies conjured in the imaginations of aging veterans.

Remembering the war in Vietnam through the images of betrayal is dangerous because it rekindles the hope that wars like it, in countries where we are not welcomed, can be won. It disparages the reputation of those who opposed that war and intimidates a new generation of activists now finding the courage to resist Vietnam-type ventures in the 21st century.


In the final paragraph, the author says we should remember that soldiers and veterans joined with anti-war activists "to end a war that should never have been fought."


Jerry Lembcke, associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross College, is the author of ''The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam."

Read the entire article at: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/04/30/debunking_a_spitting_image/

And then read another article by Lembcke that deals with the Iraq War, who notes that "spitting stories" also came up after the Gulf War, and explains that the media initially covered the anti-war demonstrations rather favorably and then switched to covering the support-our-troops rallies, after false reports of service members being spat on here in the U.S.

Here are some quotes:


"By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers."

"Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out — the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers — and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies."

"Many of the current stories are accompanied by stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans. The recent story of spitting in Asheville, for example, was traced to a local businessman who says he is a veteran who was also spat upon and called a "baby killer" when he returned from Vietnam. An Associated Press story of April 9 reported stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans surfacing in several cities including Spicer, Minnesota whose mayor said he was spat upon in the San Francisco airport while coming home from Vietnam in 1971."

"Stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans are bogus. Born out of accusations made by the Nixon administration, they were enlivened in popular culture (recall Rambo saying he was spat on by those maggots at the airport) and enhanced in the imaginations of Vietnam-generation men — some veterans, some not. The stories besmirch the reputation of the anti-war movement and help construct an alibi for why we lost the war: had it not been for the betrayal by liberals in Washington and radicals in the street, we could have defeated the Vietnamese. The stories also erase from public memory the image, discomforting to some Americans, of Vietnam veterans who helped end the carnage they had been part of."

More at: http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

My comment: If people were lining up at airports around the U.S. to spit on servicement, I can't believe that the media would have missed such events. And I know spitting stories weren't reported until long after the war. I can't say when I noticed them first but the author's date of 1980 sounds about right.
Were any soldiers spat upon? It's possible but I heard nothing of it from the vets I knew and know today and the media weren't mentioning it.

One thing's for sure, thanks to Rambo and others, people were ready to concoct some "spitting stories" before the Iraq War, just to gin up support for the war. Those stories were proven to be false. So be wary of stories of returning Iraq War soldiers being spit on, especially because we'll probably leave Iraq the way we left Vietnam and some people will need a myth to explain why our guys couldn't win. They'll blame those who opposed the war rather than those who got us into it and mismanaged it. I hope the returning military men and women will know better.

[mopinko]

1. one glaring inconsistency-

the stories are usually set in a civilian airport, with soldiers returning in uniform. but soldiers did not and do not return to civilian airports. they return to their bases.

i think that movies and tv have an enormous power to implant false memories. so many urban legends can be traced back to popular tv shows. i think that rambo was the only one spat upon.

[Dhalgren]

2. One of the reasons that it has to be "girls" who did the spitting in these myths

is that if it had been male "hippies" doing the spitting, who would believe that the returning vets would have just walked away shamed. Whenever a spitting story was told, the obvious question is, "what did you do?" Since the myth doesn't work if the soldier or marine breaks somebody's face, the spat upon soldier has to just walk away in shame - for that to happen, it has to be someone the soldier can't punch-out. Ergo, young girls...

[Richard Steele]

7. I think that's a very good point. They have to be girls for the lie to be believable. nm

[DemBones DemBones]

9. Excellent point. Blame it on the girls.

But, while it would make a man look bad to hit a young woman, he could take her by the arm and lead her over to make a complaint to a security officer. There are no reports of that.

Which raises another question: why didn't airport security ever notice any of these gauntlets of spitting anti-war protesters?

Security guards would have been older and probably not fond of "hippies" or "peace nuts," and would have liked the chance to bust them for spitting on the floor, much less on servicemen.

[Sweet Freedom]

3. Can you please cross-post to our debunker?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=284

(with the same thread title.)

Thanks! :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

4. Good try, but you know it's futile... republicans lie about it, and DUers happily repeat it.

[formerrepuke]

5. Very interesting.. but the people who perpetuate the 'spitting' myth-

as well as the 'traitorous' Jane Fonda myth- are not interested in details such as the lack of documented evidence, nor will they do any research into the matter, even the easy Snopes route. Why bother (they might say), when the myth is usually way more compelling..?

[blondeatlast]

6. Funny how these stories keep being resurrected.

Last week the bra-burners, this week spitting at vets, anyone want to start a pool for next week?

I read that article a while ago--it's very thorough and objective.

K&R.

[ieoeja]

8. Which spit hurt worse: peaceniks or World War II vets?

We didn't have too many peaceniks where I grew up. But the WW-II vets sure did enjoy spitting on the Vietnam vets: "you're not fighting a real war", "we didn't get to come home until the war was over", "you get a little scratch and five minutes you're back home", "you could win this war if you guys didn't spend all your time doing drugs and hiding from the enemy", etc.

Personally, I think I'd have been a lot more upset by those guys. But for some reason Vietnam vets have decided to forgive and forget those assholes.

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Also see the thread "Spitting Incident at the March 1/1007"

"soldier who claims he was spit on. He also claims to have received a death threat in the mail while he was in Walter Reed Hospital and he claims he was mistreated in an airport when he returned from Iraq."

"He has been celebrated on Michelle Malkin's website and was a guest on Sean Hannity's show."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=284&topic_id=310&mesg_id=310

Another poster added:

1. He claims to have been hassled in an airport by travelers who don't support the war.

http://gunnnutt.blogspot.com/2006/05/day-in-life-of-her ...

2. He claims to have received a death threat while he was a patient at Walter Reed Hospital.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004021.htm

3. He claims that a marcher on Saturday spit on him. Now watch this video and you can see how far away he was from the marchers. Kinda makes you wonder how far spit can travel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL0_-FVvSRg&mode=related ...

And this gives an even better view of that distance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw1MQZZTtMM&feature=Rece ...

4. Now he says he was threatened by marchers with clubs.

Kinda makes you wanna go hmmmm, eh?

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Found an interview with Jerry Lembke with more interesting info.

Here he's talking about his students at Holy Cross College during the run-up to the Persian Gulf War in 1990-91:

"There were students who were opposed to the war, but afraid to speak out because of what they had heard about the antiwar movement and veterans during the Vietnam War era. These stories of 'spat upon' vets were beginning to circulate in the news and students on campuses were picking up on these stories. I had never heard these stories before. So I got interested in where they were coming from, how long they had been told, who was telling them and so forth."

(My comment: That's why he started investigating and found there was no documentation of soldiers being spat upon, or even making these claims, until about 1980. As he says, it's impossible to prove no one was spat on. It's always impossible to prove a negative. You can't prove that aliens have never invaded earth, for example ("Independence Day" was just on TCM!) But there is no documentation to prove aliens invaded earth, and there is no documentation to prove that spitting incidents occurred.)

<snip>

Lembcke again:

"I've always suspected if the war goes down as a 'lost war', we'll hear more such stories, but the more important point, I think, is that the image of spat on Vietnam Vets is so engrained and part of the American memory and cultural sub-text, it almost doesn't have to be reaffirmed through stories of Iraq Vets being 'spat on' or 'mistreated'. It's almost as though the Vietnam Spitting myth is a background that everyone 'knows' about and when the President talks of Democrats not supportive of the war or otherwise baits antiwar people, the background that makes that resonant is the belief that something untoward happened to Vietnam Vets."

(Lembcke and the interviewer also discussed the military and veteran involvement in the anti-war movement and the documentary, "Sir, No, Sir."

This is the interviewer speaking:

"One of the things I was surprised to learn of was the extent of support shown to Jane Fonda by American soldiers stationed in Asia during the war at the "Free The Army" tour that she, other famous actors such as Donald Southerland, and soldiers/vets organized at US bases. Considering all the media discourse about vets' anger at Fonda , I had no idea that some 60,000 soldiers had attended and enthusiastically received her at those shows, which served as an alternative to Bob Hope's pro-war tours at the time. Also the extent of African American soldiers in the antiwar movement was something I never fully heard about in histories of the antiwar movement, which the movie makes clear was very deep and militant."

Part of Lembcke's reply is:

"One of the things I found interesting was looking at Stars and Stripes, the civilian published but military supported publication that soldiers got in Vietnam and a lot of anti-war news was reported there. It reported the story of Billy Dean Smith, the GI accused of fragging an officer, which is featured in Sir! No Sir!. It had stories about soldiers in Vietnam wearing black armbands in support of the 1969 anti-war Moratorium back home. It turns out Stars and Stripes is a pretty good source for information on the vets' and soldiers antiwar sentiment and movement back then!"


There's a lot more in the article for those who want to know about the anti-war movement back then and now. Lembcke tells about a Holy Cross grad who served in Iraq and has spoken after showings of "Sir, No Sir." She says there is a lot of opposition to the war among American military in Iraq but there's no organization at this time.


Lembcke has some serious concerns about the left's approach to the war today which are also worth reading.

http://tinyurl.com/yae8fg

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. I imagine the myth got spread much more in the 1990s.

When Forest Gump got spat on at that Black Panther party after the big peace rally.