Hybrids Overpriced?

[erpowers]

Today I was flipping through the channels and saw a segment on a local show in which the host of the show and a guest were bashing people who did things they did not like. I was a little upset and shocked becuase the segment did not seem to have a point. It was just about insulting people for having tatoos, smoking, and other things. The host and the guest just kept bring up things that people did and pointing out how stupid or horrible the thing was. At one point they starting bashing hybrid vehicles and the people that drive them. The guest started out by saying the whole craze strated with John Travolta driving one of them in a movie. Then she, the guest, went on the say the cars are overpriced. This also shocked and upset me in that the Toyota Pris has a strating cost of about $22,000. My thought was how are hybrids overpriced. I understand people pay about $3,000 extra for a hybrid, but in most cases they are paying about $22,000-$35,00 for hybrids that get about 44 miles per gallon. In addition, the cars put out very little emissions. I do understand some people have argued that Hybrids are a little too expensive for poor people, who could benefit from them, to afford. However, I have never heard anyone say the cars themselves are overpriced. I really do not think a car with a starting price of $22,000 is overpriced. So what do other think.

[LisaM]

1. I couldn't afford a car that starts at 22K. They are very overpriced.

I'm glad that you can afford it, though. I hope you have a hybrid.

[Clovis Sangrail]

5. they aren't econoboxes

Comparing the price to a Yaris and calling it overpriced isn't really fair; they're not the same class of car.
Even the base Prius is a pretty nice car... with a lot more "amenities" than an econobox.

It would be great if they marketed a hybrid at that segment of the market.. but they don't.

[mama]

2. Not sure, I've never been in a Prius

We have a new Ford Focus, 4 cylinder with standard transmission. Cost us less than 12,000 and gets 37 miles to the gallon driving in our somewhat rural area. Love it, and it didn't put us into car payments we didn't want. It is reasonably good on gas and doesn't cost much for us middle-aged folks to insure.

[Tesha]

60. A Prius is a long ways from a Ford Focus. Got GPS nav in that Focus? (NT)

[Pavulon]

61. yep tom tom $200.

[Tesha]

64. Tom Tom is a long way from an integrated nav system. (NT)

[Pavulon]

78. Integrated means you are stuck with it

when it is obsolete. I prefer handheld gps. I use tom tom that integrated with my treo.

[Tesha]

87. Why? Can't you add a Tom Tom later? ;-) (NT)

By the way, integrated system can be given new programming
and/or data.

Tesha

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. Some people put less value on status. n/t

[mama]

85. Precisely.....

Our emphasis is on fuel economy, thus making our country less dependent on foreign oil.

[dflprincess]

3. All cars are overpriced

n/t

[Merlot]

4. Depends on what you're getting for the $22,000

IMO hybrids are priced at about the same for a sub-compact or mid sized 4-door car. The honda civic is in the same price range. And it all depends on the extras and options which can drive up the price. I know that prius has an on-board nav/computer system that cost 3K. But for the most part hybrids seem right about in the norm for pricing of cars in that size range.

If a car starting at 22K is to much, there are many small cars on the market that get good mileage. As for overpriced, well, are a sport scar, SUV or luxury sedan moderately priced in comparison?

It's just another taking point for people who are dead set against hybrids for what ever reason. I've met more than a few. It's really weird, how afraid they are of change.

[shadowrider]

6. "In addition, the cars put out very little emissions. "

That depends on where you are in the process. The mines that dig up the nickel and other metals to be used in the batteries (mainly in China - NOT subject to OSHA or USA pollution standards) cause so much pollution and health issues for the people working in the mines, as well as surrounding towns/villages, any benefit of reduced emissions here is greatly, greatly out-done by the pollution caused by the mining process.

Add to that the batteries are only guaranteed for 100k miles (with a replacement value of approximately 6k), as well as the problem of SAFELY disposing of hazardous material batteries (and the costs associated with same), and I personally fail to see any advantage or benefit to owning/driving a hybrid.

But that's just me.

[Greyskye]

16. Guar. for 100K - real world data = 200K+++

I keep seeing this being bandied about. Yes, the battery guarantee is 100,000 miles. There is already data on Prii with over 200,000 miles on them. The 1st that I know of was from a Prius taxi in Vancouver.

In addition, Toyota will take back old batteries, and recyle them.

Yes, there are tradeoffs. But the technology is getting better. Toyota says they will have a 100mpg next-gen Prius in 2009.

[shadowrider]

25. I don't doubt

Toyota will take back the batteries, but if you think the cost for them to take back the batteries and recycle them is free, you'd be mistaken. If they don't charge for disposal when the battery is returned/replaced, that cost was buried in the original price of the car.

Dealers pay for nothing out of their own pockets. All costs are passed on in one way or another.

[Greyskye]

32. From Toyota's mouth

http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.

Italics are mine.

[edwardsfeingold08]

23. The nickel debate isn't black and white

Toyota says that nickel has been mined from in Sudbury since the 1800s, and that "the large majority of the environmental damage from nickel mining in and around Sudbury was caused by mining practices that were abandoned decades ago." Out of the Inco mine's 174,800-ton output in 2004, Toyota purchased 1000 tons, just over a half-percent of its output. The plant's emissions of sulfur dioxide are down 90 percent from 1970 levels, and it's targeting a 97-percent reduction in those emissions by 2015, according to Toyota.

Of course, metal-hydride hybrid batteries aren't the only use for nickel. One widespread use of nickel is for the chrome (chromium-nickel) plating that's widely used in trim and wheels for luxury vehicles. And according to the Nickel Institute, which represents trade groups, manufacturers, and nickel producers, about two-thirds of all nickel mined goes toward stainless steel, which is of course widely used in vehicles - exhaust systems, for instance. Another significant portion goes toward engine alloys - pistons, rings, liners and the like; in general, the larger the engine, the more nickel it's likely to have.

http://priuschat.com/Prius-vs-HUMMER-Exploding-the-Myth-t31938.html

The Prius battery is less than $3,000 to replace.

[Tesha]

62. The batteries are recyclable. (NT)

[Ganja Ninja]

7. It's a matter of economics.

If you're buying a car to save on gas how does paying twice as much up front for the car save you any money? A Prius at $22,000 is comparable to a Yaris for only $12,000. Ten or twelve thousand dollars buys a lot of gas.

[Clovis Sangrail]

9. money isn't always the motivation to conserve gas

it isn't for me

[gollygee]

11. Then you'd be better off getting a used fuel-efficient car

than a new hybrid, because the actual building of a new vehicle causes more pollution and uses more oil than the difference between driving a hybrid and an efficient non-hybrid car.

[Clovis Sangrail]

21. I did ;)

I bought a used 2002 Prius a few years ago; best car I've ever owned.

[gollygee]

22. Best of both worlds!

cool

[Lance_Boyle]

28. You'd be better off burning biodiesel.

Hybrid-schmybrid. You're still fellating Big Oil at the pump.

[tammywammy]

79. Plus, once you go diesel you'll never go back

They make for a very fun car to drive. :)

[LisaM]

13. I'm not against hybrids!

I just literally cannot afford 22K up front for a car. That's very pricey.

[Beausoleil]

20. A Yaris does not get 60MPG

in the city as the Prius does, just 34MPG. After a few years of owning a Yaris, you will have needed the extra 10 or 12k dollars to pay for the extra gas. It's also smaller, probably less comfortable and probably rides like a go-cart. A Corolla is probably more comparable, but it gets half the city gas mileage as the Prius, 30MPG.

[Clovis Sangrail]

27. I don't know that the Corolla is comparable

I know somebody who bought a strippy 2005 (?) Corolla and I've riden in it.
IMHO my 2002 Prius is actually a nicer car.

[Beausoleil]

31. I'll grant you that

I'm glad to hear that the Prius is a much nicer car than the Corolla. I'm in the process of buying a Prius. I just thought that a Corolla is more comparable to a Prius than a Yaris is.

[Ganja Ninja]

35. But a Prius only gets 51 on the highway because it uses it's gas

engine at highway speeds. A Yaris or Corolla get 40 mpg on the highway. If you do most of your driving at highway speeds the savings isn't as pronounced. Most people looking to save money on gas are also concerned about the up-front outlay for the car. Don't forget you'll have to pay financing on that extra 10 grand over 60 months as well. And your insurance will cost you more too.

[hughee99]

70. Here's some math on the price difference and gas...

$12k will buy you about 4,000 gallons of gas or (assuming about 35mpg) 140,000 miles. So after 140k of driving, the car AND gas costs roughly as much as just the Prius itself, excluding the gas and new battery. Yes, the Prius is probably a more comfortable ride, but the Yaris is economically more feasible. I like both cars, so nothing against either one, I just was interested in the numbers.

[ComerPerro]

8. well, it really becomes apparent when you compare non-hybrid to hybrid

Honda Civic, $15k, depending on what you get with it.

Honda Civic Hybrid, $20k or more

[CabalPowered]

10. I paid 18k for mine after the tax credits

Small down, 5 year loan, $300 payment. Over the lifetime, I'm averaging about 45 MPG, but it varies widely. My last road trip averaged around 55 MPG. I have 15k miles on it, not a single problem.

[LisaM]

19. I don't have enough income or assets to itemize my taxes

So, the tax breaks aren't an incentive for me. Things like tax breaks favor people more well to do than I.

[CabalPowered]

29. I didn't itemize, it was the hybrid tax credit that has since been reduced

[BlooInBloo]

12. Last study I saw concluded that the fuel savings still don't make the price worth it.

[edwardsfeingold08]

17. Was the study conducted by Exxon?

If one buys the hybrid camry instead of the non hybrid camry, the difference in cost is made up in 2 years from gas savings--that assumes gas is $2.50 a gallon and one does an average amount of driving. How is that not worth it?

Other hybrids take longer to make up the difference. The Ford Escape hybrid takes 6 years in the same conditions. So, that may or may not be worth it depending on the individual.

But, gas is not near $2.50 a gallon here in California. The difference is made up much faster here.

[BlooInBloo]

18. Nah. Consumer Reports or some such. But some have made up their minds, so it doesn't matter.

[Clark2008]

26. It was. I could go log into our account and pull it out for you

but I don't have the log-in. That's hubby's bag (I could get the log in if you really want it though).

He was pricing cars recently and comparing them and that article which you cited was in Consumer Reports.

[Henryman]

33. Exactly. Compare Apples to Apples!

My work buddy over-analyzes everything. On a spreadsheet, he compared the the hybrid models to the regular engine models for toyota, honda and ford. He even included money market interest on the $3000 not paid on the regular engine models. The break even point was about two years on the toyota hybrid. So if the car lasts 10 years, he'll be saving money for 8 years. And that was also with gas at $2.50 per gallon.

He also researched other points such as roominess and safety. He bought a toyota prius.

[dsc]

67. That can't be right

Assume 20,000 miles a year and 50 vs 30 miles a gallon. That would be 400 gallons for the hybrid vs 667 gallons for the non hybrid. In two years that would be 267*2*2.50 which is 1335. Unless you get the most expensive non hybrid it doesn't work out. I also overestimated the milage of the hybrid while underestimating that of the non hybrid.

[salin]

56. That depends on what one would buy otherwise.

The other two cars I considered had the same sticker price - but lower mileage. Thus for me the savings in fuel started immediately. The reality is the Prius is not comparable in price to a Corolla - and few who are going to buy the Corolla buy the Prius instead. Most who buy the Prius - due to the price - were likely to buy something a little more pricey and chose to go a little smaller (size) for the Prius which tech wise is much more upscale than other small cars.

I have yet to read a study that factors in what cars Prius buyers would have otherwise bought - and then do a savings comparison. The assumption is that the Prius buyer would have otherwise bought a Corolla or a Civic. Based on the other Prius drivers I know - I think that is a faulty assumption.

I love the car - but at an earlier point in life I wouldn't have bought it (had it been available) because it was too expensive. I would never judge someone for buying a cheaper alternative.

[edwardsfeingold08]

14. Hybrid bashing is trendy now

Is 22 thousand expensive for a car? Maybe. What about luxury cars and sports cars? You never hear news stories about a forty thousand dollar sports car being overpriced. Or a forty thousand dollar Range Rover.

The Prius is a good value compared to other cars in its price range in my opinion. My Prius has a navigation system, back up camera, blue tooth phone with all controls in the steering wheel. Those are not features that are commonly found on 22 thousand dollar cars. It's more fun to drive than my girlfriend's 30 thousand dollar Audi. It's the nicest car I've ever owned or driven. Plus, it gets 45 mpg and produces less emissions than a regular gas car.

[LisaM]

30. Can you see out the back?

Even though I can't afford it, one thing I noticed about it was that it seems that it could be prone to blind spots. I am short, and in some cars (including Toyotas) sometimes need to sit on a seat cushion to see out the back windows when I turn my head. The Prius, with its wedgelike shape, seems that it could really have some blind spot issues.

[AlCzervik]

I test drove a prius before i bought my Convertible beetle and i will say the beetle

has far bigger blind spot.

[edwardsfeingold08]

38. I don't have a problem with blind spots...

But, I'm 6' tall.

Also, there's a weird bar across the back window that took a few days to get used to.

[LisaM]

42. I'm 5'4" and have trouble in lots of cars

The only one that I drove that had a zero blind spot for me was the (now gone) Ford Probe, which was designed at least in part by women engineers.

[salin]

57. I am the same height - and don't have a problem with a blind spot

in my Prius.

[Orsino]

86. Rear visibility is rather poor...

...but it's still a significant improvement over the Paseo I was driving before the Prius. Rear visibility is about the only drawback I can think of besides high price.

[NightWatcher]

15. My Corolla gets pretty good mpg (32-39). I want to get a hybrid, but I'll wait till the price

comes down. Just like everything new, the price starts off hig and comes down a bit. Till then, I'll motor around in my corolla ($14K in 2006). Have any of you hybrid owners had any major problems?

[Clark2008]

24. I think so - particularly when I can buy a roomier and prettier car

for much less.

[bleedingheart]

34. most cars are overpriced.....so why pick on hybrids?

do you remember when VHS players came out? They cost as much as $1000 back in the day....today you can pick one up for $59.

The folks who wanted them immediately paid more for them.

Same goes for IPods and all the other gadgetry out there...and to be honest as far as cars go...the hybrids aren't as overpriced relative to paying $500 for a cell phone when you can get one for $100 or less...


If you wanna look at overpriced vehicles...look at luxury cars and SUV's... a fully outfitted Volvo stationwagon can run you up to $45K and up...

For the folks who are trying to buy a car that is more fuel efficient but not as expensive as a hybrid...there are Honda civics and Toyota Yaris and Corolla models that will do the job for a about $5K less...my Ford Escort wagon was rather good too...but i donated it to Goodwill a while back...so I can't remember what its exact fuel economy was...

[Initech]

52. Yeah, there's other vehicles on the road to bash.

Why not put all that energy into bashing the raised trucks, H2s, and Escalades of the world? You pay a premium for those vehicles and it's at least anywhere from $75 - $125 a TANK to fill up! Hybrids are expensive but you don't pay that much for gas in the long run.

[JVS]

36. a prius is about the same as a corolla and costs 8k more.

similarly the camry hybrid is about 8k more than the base camry.


I'm not sure that they're worth the extra money

edited for spelling and clarity

[edwardsfeingold08]

39. A prius is not the same as a corolla

The corolla is a model below the camry. A camry is six thousand more than a corolla. If you want to compare the cost of a hybrid camry, compare it to the camry. It's two thousand more plus you get a $750 tax credit.

[JVS]

41. at www.carsdirect.com when you look at the toyota lineup, the corolla is the most similar...

as far as size and capacity is concerned. About the tax stuff, I am not counting that because some people seem to get the benefit while others don't.

my comparison was between the hybrid camry at 26k and the regular camry at 18k as well as the corolla at 13.5k and the prius at 22k. either way you cut it, it's about 8k for hybridization

[edwardsfeingold08]

45. It's a different car

Camry hybrid 25,773 vs. camry v6 21,987. The price difference is $3,786. There is a tax credit of $750. So, it's 3 thousand difference in cost--not 8 thousand. Maybe it's closer to 8 thousand if you compare it to a 4 cylinder, but the hybrid camry drives comparably to the six cylinder.

As for comparing a Prius to a corolla--I don't know how you compare different models. It's like comparing a bmw to a corolla because they are a similar size. It's just not a valid comparison.

[JVS]

46. it's a similar car and comparing the hybrid camry to the v-6 camry is dishonest as hell

the v-6 and the hybrid are both engine options for performance. One is to make the car speedier the other to make it more fuel efficient. Both of these options should be compared to the base model with the standard engine. unless you are going to claim that the hybrid engine delivers the same power as the v6.

I wouldn't get the v-6 camry or the hybrid, neither is justifiable compared to the base camry. If you want to, you buy it. But I remain convinced that the 8k isn't justified by what you get.

[edwardsfeingold08]

49. All I can say is drive them

A four cylinder hybrid has more power than a four cylinder regular gas car. I just bought a car so i drove all three camrys. The v6 and the hybrid felt similar as far as acceleration from a stop and going uphill are concerned. The four cyclinder camry accelerated slower. If you want to call me dishonest as hell so be it. I'm just going by my experience and I don't claim to be an expert.

I did buy the car I liked best--the prius. It has smartkeys, blue tooth, navigation, alarm, back up camera, ipod hookup, hatchback, folding rear seats for a price before tax of $24,000. Is there another car with all of those features for $16.000 which is $8,000 less than the Prius? I didn't see those features in the corolla.

[Pavulon]

63. Drive a Jetta TDI

great gas milage, larger car and better handling (imho). Built on old stable technology.

Runs on biodiesel.

[tammywammy]

72. I second that motion

I have a Beetle TDI. :loveya: I'll stick with a diesel engine forever now.

[Pavulon]

76. It is a wonderful system (few pics)

Mercedes is driving Bluetec which is not priced for everyone but is a massive leap in diesel technology. It is a clean burining, bio capable motor that performs and sounds like a gas car. The diesel hybrid is the next step.



http://imgup-lb.automotive.com:8080/files/1024325.w315.jpg

The VW TDI is a great motor any you can drive to any station that sells b20 or whatever blend and fill up on recycled renewable fuel.



Not knocking the hybrid but there are lots of good choices in all ranges. low $20 to high 50k

And the grand pappy diesel sports car.. 0-60 5.5 and great millage.

[tammywammy]

81. VW is moving to a common rail engine for 2008

They haven't released all the specs on the new engines yet, but I'm interested to see what they come out with.


Now if I had my pick of any vehicle, it would be the VW Touareg V10 TDI. It's a beast of an engine with a car built around it. Yum.

[Pavulon]

82. I have found another diesel nut!

the 07 law will push the manufacturers to innovate. Bluetec ADtec will comply with 50 state regs.

That 3 series gets 55mpg!.

Ford has a massive twin turbo diesel that makes 350 hp and 650 ft/lbs of torque.


My favorite.


A car that can and WILL turn a million miles. If you have time to maintain them they are great. Else very expensive labor and parts.

The capability to run on a renewable resource is amazing. I travel and diesels of all types are used and europe and south america..

My wife and I both drive diesels and love them.

[tammywammy]

83. I work at a VW dealership

I love my TDI. It'll be a cold day in hell if I move to a gas/electric hybrid. I'm diesel all the way (not discounting a diesel hybrid).

"Ford has a massive twin turbo diesel that makes 350 hp and 650 ft/lbs of torque." That makes me drool just thinking about it. The Touareg had a ton of tourque as well.

I love how these big SUVs get all on my butt and I pump it and the Beetle just g-o-e-s. They never expect it. :P

[Pavulon]

84. Both LeMans contenders are Diesel

Audi (TDI) is favored. I drive ford commercial trucks f2/3 owned by my employer to sites when traveling in the US. They get the beat down put on them and keep running. Overloaded, generally abused, but they always run.



I had a variant of this image printed on a plotter and put on my wall at work. 650 horse power 12 cylinder twin turbo!



My wife has driven used Mercedes diesels for years. They hold up. I enjoy working on them. The newer e320 is a truly solid car. Have to force myself to wait 4 years for the depreciation to kick in.

I have seen a 240d run with no oil and one piston rod blown through the oil pan until it got home (10 miles).

I will get a couple (to keep one running) when I retire, or win the lottery to use as a daily driver.

[Beausoleil]

43. They're not really about the same

The 07 Prius gets 60MPG city, the Corolla gets 32. As the price of gas keeps going up and up and the more you drive, you can recoup 8k faster and faster. You will buy almost twice as much gasoline for your city driving; the more highway driving you do, the difference is less pronounced (41MPG v. 51MPG). You can give the extra money to Toyota or to Exxon, because if you buy the cheaper 32/41 MPG vehicle to "save" money, the extra money goes into your gas tank.

[JVS]

44. I drive mostly highway and not much each year. 8k isn't worth it for a 13 mpg bump

and I still worry about the expense of getting a hybrid engine fixed if it breaks. I'm not in.

[Beausoleil]

48. Two points

1) As the price of gas keeps going up, that 13MPG bump will be worth more.

2) Repair shouldn't be too much of an expense compared to any new car engine that breaks:
3 year/36,000 mile basic warranty
8 year/100,000 mile warranty on hybrid components including battery
5 year/60,000 mile warranty on powertrain

I wasn't too hot on hybrids until the price of gas hit $3/gal. As it goes higher, more people will get interested. It's all about the gas mileage and how long will it take to recoup the extra investment. I will trade in my current vehicle, which gets around 15MPG on a good day, for which I'm paying $300 a month, for a Prius. I will buy 1/4 the gas I'm currently buying, still pay about $300/mo. car payment, but instead of spending $200/mo on gasoline, I'll spend $50, saving $1800 a year. And my insurance will go down also.

[spanone]

37. My Honda hybrid cost 2k more than regular, but I got a 2k tax break.

[edwardsfeingold08]

40. Can't argue with that math.

[Xenotime]

80. I'll argue with the math....How much are you paying in interest?

[Fleshdancer]

47. higher demand = a higher price.

It makes more sense to shell out $22 thousand for a hybrid than twice that for a Hummer that gets less than half the gas mileage. Heaven forbid people make smart long term decisions. :eyes:

[mdmc]

50. Is there such a thing as a used Pryus for sale?

I see tons of bummers and escalades for sale used.

[Poiuyt]

54. Sure -

There are currently 45 used Prius' on Ebay

[mdmc]

55. wow

cool

I've never seen one before:kick::yourock:

[Initech]

51. A lot of the cost has to do with the electric motor.

And the fact that the electric motor and the gas motor work in sync with each other. The NIMH batteries alone run anywhere between $3 - $5 grand.

[bpeale]

53. I can barely afford a car costing $8K

on edit: I currently drive a 1969 chevy truck that's paid for

[fujiyama]

58. They are relatively expensive

compared to similar non hybrid models.

It really depends on how much one drives. If you have a long commute, then the hybrid may make sense. On average they seem to be around 5-8k more for the hybrid model.

Some people say the hybrids aren't as "fun" to drive. This is merely a subjective point I've heard from some. I haven't test driven a hybrid myself, comparing them to the regular model (though I'd guess that for a similarly sized vehicle the V6 version would have more kick).

After all, if someone has a very short commute of around 5 miles daily, one may wish to opt for more options and possibly a more spacious vehicle (there is no denying that a Camry is a roomier car than a Prius). Of course, it also depends on whether one is looking at other issues beyond cost savings.

I don't think we'll see greater sales of hybrids until they are produced in larger numbers, gas prices shoot up much higher, and the prices are likewise lower. Personally though, if I had the money and were in the market for a car, I'd consider the Prius. But I'd also look at other similar vehicles in the size and price range.

[Orsino]

59. Only 'cause you numbskulls aren't buying them.

That's a joke. Seriously, I understand the extra expense, but it will lessen as more and more hybrids are produced, and as battery technology improves. When gas hits six bucks a gallon, you'll hear fewer complaints.

[CRF450]

65. I can buy one if I want, but I choose not to

They just dont appeal to me at all.

[and-justice-for-all]

66. Very much so...

..I do not think the EV-1 was as expencive as these Hybrids. Hybrids to me are a rip off and a con, there are/were perfectly sound EVs availible, then we get fucked by BigOil,BushCo and BigAuto which they then sell us 'hybrids', PLEASE!

I WANT MY EV-1!!

[Johonny]

68. I think an important thing to remember is

When introduced into the market the Prius was considered a test car. The idea that only people willing to take the finacial risk (I.E. people with enough money) would buy into the Prius program. They aren't suppose to be a low end cheap transport product. The fact that the hybrid technology has been so good in the market place and the take off of the Prius popularity took even Toyota by surprise. Can cheaper vehicles be built with hybrid technology in them. I imagine so. However many Americans see more than happy to spend 30 K on an SUV so I don't see the econo-car market lighting up until Americans demand these cars.

[Pavulon]

77. The hybrid Lexus

is available in the SUV crossover and the large sedan.

BLUETEC diesel hybrids will show up eventually. A diesel running on b80 is a paradigm shift. Wealth is redirected from tinhorns and radicals to the midwest.



Diesel car! 5.5 0 - 60

[Rockholm]

88. My co-worker just switched cars.

She traded in her 2006 Audi A-4 convertible for a new loaded Prius. Really cool but too tight for me. I am too tall for it. She says she get about 44 miles per gallon.

[burythehatchet]

69. I believe over the long term the cost of developing the technology

will have been sufficiently amortized and the cost will plummet. Cars will still be expensive but the basic vehicle will be affordable for most people. Just like TV's Camera's Computer's etc. A very good computer is around 400 bucks now!

[PurityOfEssence]

71. Sheer idiocy; besides, Travolta drove a mini-van in "Get Shorty"

Snotty poo-pooing of a different approach is often rooted in ignorance and absolute stupidity.

The person railing against this "fad" as having been sparked by Travolta driving one in some movie or other just shows his/her complete foolishness. In "Get Shorty", Chili Palmer is only able to rent a mini-van, but since he's so hip, everyone sees it as a great thing to have. This has nothing to do with hybrids, it's a joke about group herd mentality.

I've owned an '03 Prius since September of '02 and have put about 60K on it. It performs flawlessly. Sure, I could have gotten a cheaper--and gutless--small car for much less and have spent less overall on it, but that's not the point. The point is that I'm getting over 40 mpg and not stinking up the world so much with my pollution. It's not really a question of money, it's a question of being responsible and effective. The electric motor has tongue-swallowing torque, so it's great on hills (I live in a hilly part of Los Angeles called Silver Lake) and it's great for urban driving where one needs acceleration to take advantage of traffic opportunities and avoid disasters. I couldn't have gotten a cheaper car with as much power unless it was a comparative gas guzzler and over the long haul it would have thus been more expensive.

American culture is deeply anti-intellectual and always has been. One can't listen to virtually any radio DJ for long without that person trying to curry favor by claiming to not understand math or somehow define him/herself as an unthreatening dolt. It's just tiresome. Somehow we're supposed to love them because they're stupid and not filled with pretense, even though they'll turn right around and suck love for being somehow superior. It's a nauseating mindset and it abounds.

The assumption that one would only get a hybrid to save money is ridiculous. Yes, they're very effective when the price of gas is up, but that's hardly the only reason most of us have them. For me, the idea of reclaiming energy from braking and storing up battery charge when descending a big hill was the big appeal; it just seemed like a fun idea, and that points out one of my intrinsic American characteristics: the childish desire to get away with something.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. The difference in fuel cost between a 30mpg car and a 50mpg car

for a driver who does 12k/year is $560 annually.

It'd take a long time for fuel savings to pay for the premium that a hybrid commands. A new Dodge Caliber has a base price of $14k and gets 32mpg.

[high density]

75. Bring on the hydraulic hybrid

I think the electric hybrid is a bad idea. It seems there's lots of extra crap to fail on the car and the high voltage battery array situation worries me in accident scenarios.

I don't think the electric hybrids are overpriced, but they certainly aren't a great value if your primary concern is saving money by lowering the fuel costs. I don't think many people drive enough to offset the cost of the hybrid equipment.