So do you have easy access to all your co-workers' salaries?

[LisaM]

This is the thing about the Supreme Court's WRONG decision that bugged me the most. I have no idea what my co-workers make. That is the nature of today's workplace. It's all a deep dark secret.

[slackmaster]

1. Production systems administrator

I have easy access to everything.

[LisaM]

4. Well, I encourage you to let all the females in their workplace know

if they are being paid less than their male counterparts within the window of time allotted them to sue.

[slackmaster]

5. If that was actually true, I would consider it

It's not the case where I work.

ETA California state law prohibits gender-based salary discrimination. We do have an overabundance of women who are doing relatively menial data entry work for low pay, but men in the same positions are paid the same.

[jollyreaper2112]

43. yup, IT guys do

But it's like diddling your sister, it's something you don't even think about doing. Once you abuse the trust of your position, it's just a matter of time before you get found out. Maybe not the first time, maybe not the second, but eventually it all will be found out.

[Captain Hilts]

47. I really wish you'd used a different analogy......nt

[jollyreaper2112]

68. nope, precisely the right analogy

You go "ew!" and say "I can't even think about that without throwing up a little." That's the same reaction IT dudes need to have about this stuff. It's a position of serious power that can be seriously abused. IT people see your naughty bits in the same metaphorical way accountants and shrinks do, literally in the case of doctors. You gotta have the trust and violating it has to be unthinkable.

[slackmaster]

55. Several jobs ago I and another admin did something that was wrong but justified

We ratted out two bosses who had conspired to set up a highly productive veteran employee for failure so they could replace him with cheaper fodder. We printed out some emails and gave them to the victim, suggesting that he share them with an attorney. He did, and got justice.

We also could have busted one of the bosses for cheating on his wife. We let that one slide.

[MindPilot]

60. We nailed a manager for cheating on two counts

He was playing around with a co-worker and taking kickbacks for making sure networking equipment orders went to the "correct" vendor.

Don't put your love letters on the server. And those spreadsheets you opened from email? They're cached.

[slackmaster]

61. I'd add one thing from my experience

If you are a manager and want to cook up a plot to ruin a technical person, do your planning verbally in the parking lot and don't write anything down, especially in Lotus Notes email.

;-)

[AllegroRondo]

2. Most people do not

It would be considered an HR violation to know someone elses salary if you were not their supervisor, or in a position where you needed to know it.

[Fleshdancer]

3. It's not like HR can divulge that information without getting fired, right?

so how exactly would an employee know they were receiving less pay for doing equal work?

[LisaM]

6. They can't and that's why that ruling is so unbearable

One of my friends went into HR briefly and the first thing they told her was that salaries were going to seem unequitable to her and that she would have to get used to it (she didn't last long).

[Ganja Ninja]

7. Most people don't know what other people around them are ...

making especially people that are in jobs above them on the pay scale.

[Marnieworld]

8. I do

I am the system administrator so I can access everything.

[LisaM]

12. Are they equitable where you work?

One thing that happens in Seattle a lot is that people who move from California are hired in at higher rates to "compete". People who are promoted from within are just as deserving but earn less. And I don't know how to change it.

[Marnieworld]

35. Such a small company that there isn't enough to compare

There isn't even another person like me here to compare. With my bosses it seems that we are all getting screwed equally. But of course 99% of the time people would not know what others were making so of course the ruling was bullshit.

[LibDemAlways]

38. I live in CA but my husband commutes weekly to

Seattle. His company on this end pays all expenses for him to work at the same company on that end. The bosses in Seattle have discussed the possibility of having him transfer up there, but they tell him they can't afford him on a "California" salary.

Hard to believe the salaries there are that much less than here. I was up there in April and the cost of gas, housing, food is all comparable. If the cost of living was lower I could see it, but it sure didn't appear that way to me.

[LisaM]

50. Salaries are way less, even though costs are comparable

Seattle got ranked as the most overpriced city in the US recently (wages vs. cost of living).

[RB TexLa]

9. Why would you think someone else's salary is any of your business?

[etherealtruth]

62. The SCOTUS appears to agree with you ...

... in that agreement it is clearly implied that you can pay men more than women for the same job ... heck, I'm sure you can pay white people more than people of color if you really carry that belief to conclusion.

[magellan]

10. Yes, but only because I'm the boss

When I worked for others, the rule on hiring was always a very strict, "We do NOT share salary information with other employees here." Some of us did anyway, but only after we'd gotten to know and trust each other.

Yes, the con-heavy Supreme Court is reflecting the expected Dark Ages attitude on this.

[Captain Hilts]

11. This decision is a CRIME. Yeah, everyone knows within 180 days their colleagues' salaries. nt

[ecstatic]

31. Nevermind (found it)

Please, can you provide info on this ruling. What it's about, etc. or a link? Thanks in advance!

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070530/BUSINESS/705300322/1003/NEWS05

[Captain Hilts]

39. It places a 180 day statute of limitations upon getting a job to complain about salary/hiring...

discrimination!

A woman that had worked for Goodyear discovered after 18 years she'd been getting screwed by the company and The Supremes said "tough stuff, too late!"

[ecstatic]

40. I just cannot believe this story! Thanks

for the info!

[Captain Hilts]

45. Go to response #29 for an excerpt and link to the NYT article and Justice Ginsberg's dissent. nt

[Captain Hilts]

58. The Wash Post has a good question-answer column on this one...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/05/29/DI2007052901451.html?hpid=discussions

[Selatius]

13. In general, many companies oppose making employee salaries known to employees

The frank truth is many of the salaries in many companies cannot be explained by any merit-based or seniority-based system. Sometimes the disparities in pay between two employees simply can't be explained. You only need to reference Paul Wolfowitz and his girlfriend at the World Bank as a prime example

Cynically speaking, it is more likely the salaries can be more explained by cronyism, nepotism, influence peddling, and sheer office politics.

[LisaM]

15. Right. So it's all a big secret. So how does the Supreme Court ruling

reflect the reality of the workplace?

[Selatius]

26. It doesn't.

I'm assuming you're referencing the Court's decision where it essentially eliminated one of the five protected classes under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. (Race, color, religion, nationality, and gender)

The fact that the Court has upheld a "time limit" on the period of time it takes for one employee to find out the pay of fellow employees essentially renders quite a few gender-based discrimination lawsuits nullified. The truth is gender discrimination isn't going to go away no matter how fast one wants people to discover if they are being discriminated against because it's not that easy to prove that kind of discrimination, especially if employers are reluctant to reveal the pay of fellow employees.

Ginsburg noted that Ledbetter's pay started out comparable to what men were earning but slipped over time.

The justice said Ledbetter faced an impossible choice: sue early and probably lose a half-baked case, or wait until the evidence is strong enough to win and be told she sued too late. Siding with Ginsburg were justices Stephen Breyer, David Souter and John Paul Stevens.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070530/BUSINESS/705300322/1003/NEWS05

The only ones you have left to depend upon is the US Congress. Only they can amend the laws to correct the Supreme Court's "parsimonious" reading of the law.

[RB TexLa]

22. or explained by how the employees market themselves

Two people who do the same job, are both valuable but one has applied for higher positions with other companies many times would be making more than the other if say they have never applied anywhere or come close to leaving. Many people get raises not to leave, might not be a position to move them up to but you don't want to lose them and match the money if they are worth it.

[LSK]

14. no, its workplace taboo to know such things

Is there a link to this ruling please?

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Teachers

We all know what we make.

[LisaM]

17. Should the SCOTUS have tied access to others' salaries to their ruling?

Because unless it's the law, no one's going to tell you.

[no_hypocrisy]

18. The thing that just kills me is that information is kept under lock and key in order

to AVOID animosity between coworkers or workers and management. The only way you know how much someone else makes at work is you either:

1) overhear gossip in the stalls;
2) you ask a direct question; or
3) you sneak a look at their paycheck.

[KansDem]

52. Tell me about it! Recently, an employee was hired who was given "free parking..."

...animosity between coworkers ...

I work in downtown KC and pay to park at a parking garage across the street. I pay a considerable amount to park there. We all do...so I thought until the "rumor mill" told me that one recent new-hire was given the standard starting salary (BOE) plus "free parking." Now whenever I see this person, my stomach churns with the bile of acrimony! :mad:

Now I wonder how many others have been given this perk.

[KatyaR]

67. And THAT'S why salaries should be kept confidential--

unless you work in a public setting, then you have to have that transparency.

I see a lot of salary information, as the payroll department falls under my boss's supervision, but I would NEVER think of sharing that information with anyone who was not approved to know it. That's just asking for trouble, as far as I'm concerned.

And yes, I do get cheesed sometimes when I see what other people make, but I can't change it, so big deal. I get more upset when I see people who are getting screwed because of their position. My last job comes to mind . . . .

[LisaM]

19. Here's an article re the ruling

Someone asked, though it was all over the news last night and this morning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/29/washington/30scotuscnd.html?em&ex=1180584000&en=f0d2d60b618202ca&ei=5087%0A

[RC Quake]

20. Yes, as does everyone on this board.

All of my institution's personnel salaries are public information.

[BlooInBloo]

21. Don't you?

[LisaM]

24. No, I don't know what my coworkers make.

I do not have a job in the public sector. Though one of my friends does, and she claims their salaries are public record and I can't find the list anyway (University of Washington - anyone know how to find their salary list online?)

[BlooInBloo]

25. I was kidding. I don't know anyone who has ever known for sure what his/her coworkers made.

[RB TexLa]

27. You are not going to find a list of employees of a university with their pay beside their names

not exactly what public record means. You can find budget information for the school and probably broken down by departments and such.

There will probably be the salary for the President of the university and maybe some top level employees and perhaps a range of salary for other employees of various level, experience and status.

[Captain Hilts]

49. Actually, a friend of mine at a U in VA did. nt

[Clark2008]

51. Actually, that's not true, either.

My local newspaper prints a list of most of the top state/government employees and their salaries yearly. In fact, I did it one year, as well.

It IS public record - at least in Tennessee.

[seemunkee]

23. Network admin

I could find it if I wanted to, but I don't

[ET Awful]

30. Same here. There are a lot of things I COULD do, but ethics prevent me.

I just don't feel it's my place, nor do I feel it's ethical.

[MindPilot]

33. Same here.

In fact when I do have to deal with that sort of information, I make a conscience effort to not look at the data.

If I don't have the information, Jack Bauer can't beat it out of me.

[MindPilot]

28. And how do you even know it's equal work?

Unless two people are on the assembly line doing exactly the same process, the idea gets a little grey.

Even in the same job title, the metrics used to gage performance may differ depending on what project someone is working on. In my job, I have no way of knowing how a colleague's performance is being measured. Hell most of the time I have no idea how MY performance is measured!!

Of course this is not to say the problem of pay disparity doesn't exist, only to say it is a very complicated issue.

It's like hiring discrimination. I know I didn't get the job because I'm female, black, Wiccan, too young, too old, need glasses, wore brown shoes to the interview, whatever. But how could I possibly prove it?

[pinto]

29. Justice Ginsburg's dissent, for the minority opinion, states their case well.

from the NY Times article.

In a vigorous dissenting opinion that she read from the bench, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the majority opinion “overlooks common characteristics of pay discrimination.” She said that given the secrecy in most workplaces about salaries, many employees would have no idea within 180 days that they had received a lower raise than others.

An initial disparity, even if known to the employee, might be small, Justice Ginsburg said, leading an employee, particularly a woman or a member of a minority group “trying to succeed in a nontraditional environment” to avoid “making waves.” Justice Ginsburg noted that even a small differential “will expand exponentially over an employee’s working life if raises are set as a percentage of prior pay.”

Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter and Stephen G. Breyer joined the dissent.

(aside) I've worked in Public Health. fwiw, all government employees' pay scales are a matter of public record.

[Captain Hilts]

41. It's brilliant and the tone in which she read it made it clear she was pissed Big Time.

The salaries of public employees ARE public, but it can take time to get them.

[Lerkfish]

32. If you have a union, they should know, because its important to keep the company honest

if you don't have a union, get one.

[Zywiec]

34. Should education be a factor in salary

even if you are essentially performing the same job? For example, one computer programmer has a high-school diploma and another has a degree in computer science. Should they be paid the same?

[slackmaster]

57. Salary is always the result of negotiation between employer and employee

IMO nobody deserves more pay just because he or she has a degree that another person lacks. With increasing experience, education level becomes less important. Not everyone has an innate ability to negotiate effectively. That can be learned, more or less.

[MindPilot]

59. Well, now you are in the "qualifications" area...

but I've watched that happen. When I was hired at my current job, another guy was hired for exactly the same position. We both came from the same contracting firm, about the same age with equivalent experience. (Actually he had more experience with this particular job function than I.) I was offered 10,000 a year more and a $3000 signing bonus (ahh, the heady old days of IT!) simply because I have a degree...and it's not even in-field.

Fair? My wallet says yes, but I do question it.

[adadem]

36. Years ago

I was offered a promotion in 1881. The guy I was replacing (was leaving co) asked what they offered me in salary & I told him. He hit the roof and said he was getting paid 48k while I was offered 23k. He said it was sex descrimination as I had more experience and equal education. Went to EO or somthing and nothing could be done. I took the promo temporarily and then got out. Nothing changes.

[murloc]

63. yea but in 1881 ...

23k was like $800,000 now


:):P

[BlueGirlRedState]

37. I know my own and my four direct reports

I supervise four employees, and I have their salary info but I don't think about it except at annual review time.

[LisaM]

54. I supervise four employees and I don't even know what they make!

For all I know they make more than I do.

[Johonny]

42. Yes and no

I can tell how much other people are making but not who is making what. The numbers are released every year but not linked to names.

[Marrah_G]

44. Yes I do, but then I am the office administrator

[LibDemAlways]

46. In the early 80's I worked for an insurance company for a year in

what was still known then as the "personnel" dept. I had everyone's salary at my fingertips, and there would have been a mutiny if the underlings knew what the overlords were making. The peons at the bottom were getting close to minimum wage, while the managers took home hefty 6 figure salaries plus bonuses of many thousands per quarter. The two guys at the top collected $35,000 a month plus million dollar quarterly bonuses.

The company also treated the peons like shit when it came to vacation time. I remember one clerk asking for an extra day off at Christmas so she could visit family in another state. She was told "no" and threatened with "termination" by an asshole boss who was taking the week off to go skiing.

I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

[BOSSHOG]

48. Its easy to figure out one's pay in the military

All paygrades with longevity increases are the same and there is no discrimination relative to sex. An E-6 with 15 years service makes the same in Japan and Germany and Korea and Norfolk, Virginia. Housing allowances and specialty pays will vary but the base pay is the same.

[lse7581011]

53. I Do

work in local government. Everyone's salary is printed in the town report!

[Clovis Sangrail]

56. I have at a few places

Though I never looked. (sysadmin)

I think once you leave the realm of interchangable automaton disparity in pay for similar positions can be expected, and is usually reasonable.

Employees often have a unique set of responsibilities and expectations yet share the same official job title and description. Paying them all the same isn't reasonable.

I don't agree with the majority SCOTUS opinion but likely for different reasons. I don't have a problem with salary information being confidential.

[HardRocker05]

64. that provision of the law is intended to make the whole thing unenforceable. it's pretty clear

who the writers of the law were protecting, and it wasn't the workers.

[WinkyDink]

65. As a teacher, yes, I did---as did the entire community!

[CrispyQ]

66. I'm an executive admin.

It can be a difficult job when you have the inside scoop on everyone & everything. I have had to learn to let things roll off me like water on a duck or I would go bat-shit crazy in this job.

In one instance, a company I worked for hired an over 40 black man for a VP position. It became evident that he was totally unqualified & with a little investigation, they discovered he had lied on his application regarding his education. Guess what? No one in HR noticed that he never signed his application, hence, they had no case. They wouldn't let him go because they were worried he would play the "over 40" or "black" card. Eventually they 'restructured' that department & got rid of him that way.

It is everything for the corporations these days. If you are a flesh & blood, living, breathing being, you don't count as much as the artificial entities.