DUers did it to Cindy Sheehan.

[Bake]

The attitude that Sheehan is "beyond reproach" and that nobody else's opinion matters, OFTEN expressed here -- in virtually every thread -- is what pissed a lot of people off. Including me. No one could question ANYTHING she did, because she was a grieving mother. She was, in essence, a sacred cow. And sacred cows, frankly, need to be deflated, regardless of ideology, because there is no such thing as a sacred cow.

I admire MOST of what Sheehan did. Not all. I thought she was tactically wrong a couple of times, and said so. I got flamed for it. I never called her names or said anything personally nasty about her, so I don't need to, nor do I, apologize for what I said -- in a democracy, everybody's opinion matters. I thought she was wrong to disrupt the Dem presser last fall. I thought she was wrong to presume to speak for ALL of "We the People" in an open letter calling for impeachment. I thought she was wrong to meet with Chavez. She should have stuck to her core message. And the fact that she put herself out front as the "face of the anti-war movement" was fine, but she went beyond that, and I don't apologize for criticizing that.

So frankly, DUers prompted a lot of the criticism that she got from this place, by putting her on a "beyond reproach" pedestal. And I'm sorry if that offends anybody, but it's the truth and it needs to be said. As I said, I admire her stand on the war. I admire her actions on that issue. When she went beyond that issue, she stepped off the pedestal.

A lot of people now are conflating ANY criticism of Sheehan's methods or tactics, or issues for that matter, with criticism of her personally, and frankly, that's just wrong. If you're going to get out front, you've got to expect that. And when it gets too hot, you get out of the kitchen.

Bake

[symbolman]

1. Personally

I'd like to see ANY post that uses the term "CINDY HATER" REMOVED.

It makes for Bad Joo Joo :)

[Big Pappa]

2. I caught hell also.

Maybe everything has calmed a little.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Hmmm

"And sacred cows, frankly, need to be deflated"

Why, exactly, do you think Cindy Sheehan needs to be deflated? What has she ever done to you?

[philosophie_en_rose]

6. Sigh.

It's not Cindy Sheehan. It's the people that insist that she turns water into wine and died for everyone's sins. THAT needs to be deflated.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Nobody thinks she's Jesus.

There's no reason to exaggerate.

[Bluebear]

21. That's all she's been doing on this subject

And I don't understand why.

[WildEyedLiberal]

22. Perhaps not. But a few people do think she's "more important than King and Parks"

I think elevating her above MLK does fit the definition of putting her on a pedestal and making her beyond reproach.

And yes, that's a direct quote from a post I saw in a different thread today.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Link it.

Go for it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

30. Here you goooo

:eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=999407&mesg_id=1001501

I also got the quote wrong, my mistake. "Every bit as important as Parks and King" but "maybe more important than Parks." The person also makes it clear that the anti Iraq war movement is more important than the civil rights movement because more people have died in Iraq.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Explain why she is less important that Parks.

Since Sheehan deserves to be criticized for being a sacred cow, shouldn't Rosa Parks be equally criticized? What's your compliant about Rosa Parks? What should she be criticized for?

[WildEyedLiberal]

38. Who said I had a complaint about Rosa Parks - or Cindy Sheehan, for that matter?

You're reading into my post things that aren't there.

You implied that I was making up the quote elevating Cindy Sheehan with Rosa Parks and MLK, so I linked it for you. Then you switch gears to throw this red herring at me about criticizing Rosa Parks. Good Lord.

[conscious evolution]

76. That's right.I said that.

And I stand by it.

[ComerPerro]

103. "Link it"??? Are you fucking serious? You started a thread basically saying that very thing!

[Xenotime]

66. Maybe not...but she WAS supposed to be a savior...

Her son died for somebody's sins. That alone should have been enough. I feel so sorry for her. I'm sure she feels helpless and that her son died in vein.

[patrice]

101. She is mistaken about that. He did not die for nothing.

He just didn't die for what she thought he died for.

No one is ever nothing.

[Xenotime]

140. What?@!?

"No one is ever nothing." What the hell is that supposed to mean. I'll explain it to you in clear english..

1.) Her son goes over there and dies in an illegal war.
2.) Cindy protests to have * impeached and put dems back in power.
3.) Dems get back in power and continue funding the war.
4.) Cindy's son die for nothing.

[Bentcorner]

173. Casey died trying to save the lives of his fellow soldiers that had been ambushed

by forces of cleric Muqtada al'Sadr. Casey Sheehan volunteered to be part of the Quick Reaction Force assembled to go and rescue those soldiers. I think some people forget what a truly brave and heroic person Casey Sheehan was.

Casey Sheehan did not die for nothing.

[mzteris]

198. and evidently was the force behind

CS and therefore the "anti-war" movement.

Definitely not "for nothing" then.

[Pacific John]

217. Not to nit pick...

but Casey was one of the new guys who got pinned down in Sadr City, not part of the rescue force. And btw, a buddy on mine who lost his son who did volunteer for the rescue has been steadfast that his loss was for nothing.

[jgraz]

105. Why does that need to be deflated? And who made you The Deflater?

Many people on this board hold her in high regard. She's a protester and grieving mother, not an elected official. What's wrong with people having a (somewhat justified) high opinion of her?

If someone jumps on you for questioning her methods, then deal with that person if you think they're out of line. That's different than feeling you have some general obligation to "deflate" her.

[Bake]

7. I meant exactly what I said.

She never did anything to me, nor did I ever say she did. I supported her anti-war efforts. When she went beyond that, I spoke up here on DU (e.g., the meeting with Chavez, the "open letter" on behalf of "We The People") and got flamed for it.

My point is that by declaring any person, or any issue, "off limits", as some DUers did, they were unintentionally inviting things to escalate. In other words, her biggest supporters on DU "did it to her." In a democracy, NOTHING is off limits to debate, and everyone's opinions matter. Even yours.

Bake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. That doesn't explain your position.

Why do you think Cindy Sheehan needs to be criticized?

Again, what did she ever do to you?

[Bake]

14. I answered your question.

In a democracy, NOTHING is outside the arena of debate. You, however, seem prone to squelch it.

Cindy Sheehan did nothing to me, and I said so. If you don't understand the concept of "sacred cows," then perhaps you should take a refresher course in cultural literacy. It's pretty simple actually. "Sacred cows" are things which are not to be questioned. In a democracy, we don't HAVE those. Question everything. Get it?

Bake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. No, you didn't.

You suggested there's some valid reason for criticizing Sheehan, I want you to explain what that reason is.

[MH1]

47. Try reading the op again - he mentioned his criticisms. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Yeah, but none of those criticisms are valid.

:shrug:

[MH1]

55. You're joking, right?

Just because you disagree with his criticisms, that makes them invalid?

Is every opinion that disagrees with yours, invalid and not open for discussion?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. No, it's not because they disagree with me.

It's because they're blatantly dumb.

[MH1]

62. "Blatantly dumb"?

Because you don't understand how someone could think that?

Maybe the person has a different set of life experiences to draw on than you do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Oh, I know how somebody could think it.

And I reject it as being dumb.

[MH1]

68. So because you reject it as "dumb", it's "invalid" and should not be discussed?

So, are you the arbiter of what should and should not be discussed in this forum? Do you think you should be?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. No, please, by all means discuss it.

Explain to me why Cindy Sheehan disrupting a meeting was so bad.

I'm all ears.

[MH1]

74. It has been discussed,

and the op's point was about the flaming when it was discussed, and how that contributed to the poisonous atmosphere here.

My response and our little interchange here has been about whether it was valid for discussion. Now you say it is.

I think I am done here.

(I'd better be, because I have some other stuff I have to do tonight)

:hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Nobody ever explained how it wasn't a stupid argument.

It is, btw.

[Danger Mouse]

89. It's their opinion.

It's a different opinion from yours.
Since you threw out the 'stupid' word yourself, perhaps you can explain why you think it's stupid, beyond saying 'it just is.'
Or maybe you got nothin?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. That doesn't mean it's not stupid.

People had the same sort of complaints about Rosa Parks. "Oh, she was rude to disrupt that bus."

And that was a stupid argument. Wouldn't you agree?

[Danger Mouse]

93. In that case, yes.

I don't know much about that incident where she disrupted the meeting, because honestly, I didn't pay much attention to her activities.
I'd be interested in hearing more, though.
It depends on what she was trying to accomplish, if she managed to accomplish it, and if the incident helped or hurt us in the end.

[Bake]

106. That's pretty typical "hooliganism."

Whatever hooligan disagrees with is "blatantly dumb." Typical.

Bake

[Danger Mouse]

108. I admit to not knowing much about the incident where Cindy disrupted a hearing/meeting.

Could you please explain to me what she did, and why you disagree with it?

[SemperEadem]

181. I'm still waiting to read what yardstick he uses to measure

what is a valid point and what isn't... anyone whose responses amount to no more than "I know you are, but what am I?" is only agitating, not contributing to a discussion.

[jpgray]

150. Let's invoke Godwin's Law for kicks. Hitler never did anything to me

(now for the clamorings of "jpgray compares Cindy Sheehan to Hitler!")

The comparison is of course ridiculous, but so is your argument. Once we get in the business of deciding who deserves to be criticized, we discover opinions on -that- will be at least as varied and tasteless as the any possible criticisms. Everybody is up for grabs; no one is off limits. It has to be that way because no one will agree where to draw the line and for whom. I refuse to recognize the handing out of white and black hats by DU, even if in this case I agree Sheehan doesn't deserve tacky criticisms such as "attention whore," etc.

[banjoterror]

172. I don't get it...

Why does some self-defined public persona have to do something personally to me to incur my criticism? Cindy Sheehan has spouted repetitive rhetoric and sound bites for years now, and at some point it seemed to me that she stepped over the line from grieving mother and activist to the realm of would-be (wanna-be) messiah. I don't see any reason to criticize her, but that doesn't really seem to be what's going on here. This OP was more an attack directed at the people on DU acting like little proto-fascists trying to bring everyone's opinions and public statements into line with the accepted deified Cindy Sheehan canon.

[Bake]

191. Exactly! You got my point exactly.

This was NOT a bash-Cindy thread. It was directed at DUers who bring their flame throwers to every thread to enforce the Cindy orthodoxy.

Bake

[sludge man]

63. Yes, there are limits.

In my opinion, on this board it’s unacceptable to write that:


Torture is acceptable.

Bush is a great president and should be revered.

Exposing a covert CIA agent is acceptable.

It’s no big deal when soldiers die because they are volunteers.

It is okay to criticizing ANYONE who lost a child in this illegal war.

Fascism is good for America.

Discrimination due to race, sex, creed, or sexual orientation should be tolerated.

Our government is not of the people, by the people, and for the people.


You have a right to your opinions, but if you hold these views, you should be somewhere else. Or maybe I need to go somewhere else.

[Danger Mouse]

102. Welcome to DU but...

"It is okay to criticizing ANYONE who lost a child in this illegal war."
You're saying it's not okay to criticize someone who lost a child in the war? What if they started loudly praising bush and bashing Dems? What if they started spouting off hate speech about Arabs? Would you criticize them then? While I cannot imagine the pain of such a loss, it does not make you saint that is above reproach. They are still responsible for their actions, and when they put themselves in the public eye, people are going to criticize them...and it is their right to do so.
Cause this country has something called free speech, which everyone is guaranteed. When you decide you need to dictate whose opinions can be heard and whose can't, you're doing the work of Bush for him.

[Lisa0825]

164. ABSURD.

:eyes:

[Buzz Clik]

243. Well, Skinner wrote a long essay about that very subject -- and he disagrees with you.

[Dorian Gray]

133. To be fair

there is a difference between deflation and disagreement. I actually don't like Chavez, and I don't like that she met up with Chavez. But........ that's one mistake that I mentioned in a thread long ago. I don't feel the need to start new threads descrying her mistakes, and I honestly and truly don't understand the firestorm over this issue. She quit because she was unhappy with criticism. Good for her. I wouldn't want to put up with that either. She's a human being. She makes mistakes, but through her mistakes she brought A LOT of awareness to our troops and the awful awful war that is being fought for unclear reasons. Because she is human and makes mistakes, it makes her heroic acts more poignant.

[Buzz Clik]

241. You've got balls and perspicacity. And, I agree with you.

I duplicated your "photo with Hugo" criticism, and I was swarmed upon as if by locusts.

However, I wouldn't say that Sheehan needs to be criticized; but, I would say that those who disagree with her approach and some of her tactics are under no obligation to remain silent.

[demobabe]

31. I doubt the poster really meant "And sacred cows, frankly, need to be deflated"

And this is only my interpretation, but I think they meant more that the concept or construct of Cindy as a sacred cow needed deflating, not Cindy herself.

Putting people on pedestals is never a good thing. That doesn't negate any of the work Cindy has done, all the hours, all the guts standing up and protesting, getting arrested... she's truly amazing. And she's a real human being, and I feel sad for her in all of this. I was a bit mad yesterday, but thought about it and believe Cindy is truly exhausted and the weight of losing her son - it being his birthday and all, I can't fathom. I see a mother grieving, who has lost nearly everything, in great need of healing.

I hope those near her will give her great support and take good care of her and help her pick up the pieces in her life and find new happiness.

[Bake]

107. And if you read my OP, you'll see that's exactly what I mean.

I said I respect Sheehan's efforts, tireless hours, sacrifice, and tears. What I am critiquing is the fact that DUers put her on a pedestal and declared her beyond any and all reproach regardless of subject, thereby making her a sacred cow. That is what, particularly in the sometimes toxic atmospehere of DU, invited the kind of comments that may have helped lead to her retirement.

It was more a comment on DU than on Sheehan.

Bake

[demobabe]

122. The DU didn't cause her to retire.

The DU was just simply another place to direct her distress over the death of her son and her feeling of helplessness over the whole situation.

She's come out against several groups that have promoted and supported her greatly, and I believe it is because she has not come to terms with her son's death. When she feels let down by a group, it's personal - she's let Casey down. She even said she'd failed him when she "quit" a couple days ago on Casey's birthday.

There is no question we need to stop the war in Iraq. But I feel Cindy's been working from a very emotional place, and I don't know anybody who can keep going for a very long time on emotion. You burn out - eventually you're left hollow. I feel very sad for her. You can just look at her and see how much the fight has taken out of her, and I really hope she rests up and works on healing herself. I'm hoping she'll come back and be in a better place emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

[immoderate]

178. Sorry for the levity -- but the image of sacred cows, deflating...

Ya think sacred cows smell bad when they deflate?

--IMM

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

182. All that methane contributes to global warming

But it's a sacred sort of global warming, not the bad kind.

:hi:

As for Cindy Sheehan, I hope she's not reading DU. Yikes, what a mess! I hope she's relaxing in the shade, reading a book. She can get back to anti-war activities after a while. It ain't like the war will go away anytime soon.

[immoderate]

202. But if she is looking in...

She's seeing mostly support and gratitude and comments that range from nit-picking to truth searching and some of the craziness that we do so well. :patriot: :silly: :shrug: (Though I bet she's occupied.)

And fart jokes are always funny! :bounce:

--IMM

[Cant trust em]

195. Not Sheehan, but the sacred cow

Cindy Sheehan doesn't need to be deflated, but the idea that she is an untouchable sacred cow. People in the public eye should be above recrimination even though they may be have had something tragic happen to them.

[Rex]

4. Criticism and jealousy are two different things.

Personally, I think there are some here who love to watch people like Cindy stumble and fall. They live for it.

I think a few here got envious of Cindy and others (like Moore) and just can't stand to see a good thing stay good.

I salute you for your criticism, but think you exaggerate quite a bit in the OP.

[Beacho]

10. Micheal Moore?

First time I've heard that one

[Bake]

12. Really? Where, exactly, did I exaggerate?

Because I distincly remember being told that unless I had lost a child to the war, I should just shut the hell up. And I have a son of draftable age, should a draft be reinstituted. Ergo, my opinion matters. But beyond that, EVERY American's opinion matters, child or otherwise.

When I questioned Sheehan's meeting with Chavez or her disruption of the Dem presser, I was told to shut the hell up. When I questioned whether she spoke for ME as part of "We the People" in her open letter, I was told to shut the hell up.

Sigh. It's sad when Dems are as pathetic about squelching debate in the marketplace of ideas as the Pukes are.

Bake

[Rex]

13. The sacred cow stuff is bullshit.

And so what, aww you've been told to shut the hell up. So have I, many times. I guess I should start a thread about it and exaggerate why I'm so angry. :eyes:

[philosophie_en_rose]

17. Are you suggesting he write an open letter about himself called "Good Riddance Attention Whore?"

That describes the accusations in your post exactly.

[Rex]

20. Naw, I won't waste time on that - you actually think he would make

a post and call it that? Oh, wait. Did he?

[Bake]

29. No, because I have never disparaged Sheehan personally, and would not do so.

The point I was trying to make was about squelching debate and making ANTONE or ANYTHING above being questioned.

Personally, I'm sorry that she's stepping out of the movement for the time being. I suspect she'll be back. But I hope she limits herself to her single issue, simply because that's where she is most effective.

Bake

[Rex]

36. Well I must disagree with you about the sacred cow stuff

and I just don't see how anything we are currently talking about is getting squelched! You must have had one hell of a disruptor piss you off in a thread about Cindy! I agree with you about free speech and think so far we (you and I) and DU are really good about getting to debate just about anything.

I hope Cindy goes home and enjoys her years with her remaining kids. I bet if she stays out of the spotlight for a few years, people will forget all about her. 3 years tops.

[sam sarrha]

24. it is called "Free Speach".. are you just being thin skinned and/or spoiling for a fight..?

[banjoterror]

174. I think some of us...

Just don't really give much of a damn about Cindy Sheehan.

[CountAllVotes]

5. the way I see it is this way

Cindy's son Casey did not die in vain. His memory will live on forever with that of his mother Cindy. If it weren't for Cindy's actions, her son could well be said to have died in vain. However, Casey's death brought forth this fine woman with a message and a question. For what noble cause did my son die?

That noble cause Cindy was the cause of bringing awareness to the world so other persons need not die in vain and how very necessary peace in our world is.

So, to Cindy I say this much: Your mission has been accomplished as everyone knows who your fine son was and they know that he died and that he was loved and that it was unnecessary yes, but you Cindy let everyone in the world know about it and how you and the memory of your son were treated. We will not forget!

Thank you Cindy Sheehan, thank you! :loveya:

[Joe for Clark]

11. You step in her shoes - then you make the call

Not before.

She knows something you don't EVER want to know. And she expressed the best way she could. I am very proud of her.

I think she was very articulate.

She knew she was standing in the way of an avalance - but she did a lot too. I do not want to she her crushed anymore. She did enough.

But don't you comment on what she she knew, shoulda woulda coulda done - cause you don't know. And hopefully you never will.

Joe

[Bake]

19. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

"You don't know." You can't know, so shut the hell up. I have a 19-year old son that I will NEVER give up to *'s war. My opinion matters as much as anyone else's. In a democracy. You should study up on the concept.

I never questioned Sheehan's anti-war position. I questioned her when she went beyond that to other issues. And was flamed for it, just like you're doing here.

Sacred cows are wrong, wherever and whoever they are.

Bake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. "My opinion matters as much as anyone else's."

I disagree.

[Bluebear]

28. Sorry, bake, I think you are resurrecting something that has nothing to do with this.

You got your feelings hurt about this, what, 7-8 months ago? And are trying to interject your anecdote into this week's proceedings. Nobody this week is saying she was a sacred cow or beyond criticism. What they asked for was some respect for her loss adn for what she tried to do.

[Bake]

111. My feelings are hardly going to get hurt on an internet discussion board.

I was making a point about the atmospehere here at DU lately. And about those who attempt to squelch criticism/comment/debate on any subject on which they disagree with another person. Those same tendencies have been evidenced here this week, and THAT is what I was commenting on.

I was NOT criticizing Sheehan in the OP or in any other comment to this thread. That's been done, plenty, elsewhere here this week.

Bake

[symbolman]

35. Yes

You're right, YOUR opinion DOES matter as much as anyone elses, and that's the problem with the DU at this point, there are SOME that want for EVERYONE ELSE to shut up, but THEY WON'T.

I'm with you, you DO have that right, and with a 19 year old kid on the line you've got as much right to worry about them being drafted and killed as SHEEHAN DID BEFORE her son was.

TO Those ATTACKING THE OP:

Get off this person, get some class, quit harrassing people who disagree with CINDY SHEEHAN.

You are the ones who give her a Bad NAME, RAPPING others in her name.

Stop it. Learn some manners, don't claim the higher ground as YOU grind others beneath your heels.

I'll stand by EVERYONE'S RIGHT to have an Opinion, but I would ask that the SHEEHANITES PLEASE keep the religious fervor to a minimum. It's disgusting and rude.

[RevCheesehead]

41. Raping?

A tad over the top, I think.

[Bluebear]

43. Merci. nt

[symbolman]

49. I meant

Rapping, sorry..

[RevCheesehead]

59. yeah, that's an important distinction.

a VERY important distinction.

[tammywammy]

45. Yep

That's pretty much it. :)

[Marrah_G]

46. I wish I could recommend this, thank you for saying what I've not been able to express clearly.

[symbolman]

57. I'm going to break this pool cue in half now

and hand you half of it, you keep your back to mine, and we'll beat our way out of this place :)

[Marrah_G]

73. Can I have the pointy end?

[symbolman]

81. LOL

Only if you chalk it real slow first, half of the battle is Mental :)

[Marrah_G]

90. I promise to give my most intimidating soccer mom stare!

[Bake]

112. Just give me the cue ball.

I'll be fine.

Bake

[Bluebear]

48. "You are the ones who give her a Bad NAME, RAPING others in her name."

You say that and immediately say "Stop it. Learn some manners"?? !!

[symbolman]

53. Mispelled

RAPPING.

Keep it up, you're going to prove my point in the end.

How would YOU tell people to get off the fucking HIGH HORSE and act decent.. I believe people have ALREADY tried to be NICE.

Why don't YOU Monitor them if you agree with those who TRASH someone who has a 19 yead old son they fear for?

I DO TOO. and I WAS DRAFTED DURING NAM.

[Bluebear]

60. I won't "keep it up", as I think your tone is absolutely disgusting. Also you mispelled "misspelled"

[symbolman]

67. See how I am

I even misspelled RAPING..

But in the end the misspelling doesn't make any differnce to some, they just see that RED CAPE when someone messes with their LADY.

I guess I can now take credit for NOT misspelling SHEEHANITES.. a new term, works for me.

I like you, and I wish Sheehan would see a shrink, she needs it, for all she's endured, but what do we get? People CANNONIZING her instead.

That didn't help Elvis OR Hendrix..

The woman plainly needs a rest, and to finally bury her son, other wise it will be a downward spiral, you love her, get her some HELP..

[Bluebear]

70. But don't you see, you are sounding just as...um, exercised over this?

No offense!

Really, I am not one that canonized her, frankly the namecalling is what irritated me. Attention whore, good riddance, etc. etc. I just don't think it was necessary.

[symbolman]

79. I don't like either of them

But to me, for HER to use the "Attention Whore" as the title of her "vacating" the movement seemed pretty telling..

THe chick is TIRED, she's being PUSHED by synchophants, and I'm damned SURE SHE wouldn't want people BASHING others IN HER NAME either, don't you agree?

But for some to HARRASS a person who's scared of their kid dying in this war is TERRIBLE, and then to claim the HIGH ROAD.

Of course some are going to stick up for their right to speak, and some should be ignored, but the level is too high.

Like I said, if they REALLY care about her, they'd get her to a mental Health counselor and NOW.

Not blow more smoke up her ass.

I've never had a beef with you, and I like what you post, just sticking up for someone who's being dogpiled on :)

[demobabe]

184. See, I think you're on to something here

EMOTION.

I think we have a big problem with it as a society at whole, and I wish I knew what to do to fix it.

We have so much media buzzing by so fast, 24 hour news channels, message boards where everyone gets a shout out - there is not much substance anymore, just reaction.

And so we spend all of our time talking about reactions instead of taking action.

Was Cindy an attention whore? Should we have called her one? Was any of that necessary? Should we be better people? Should we take the higher ground? Isn't everyone entitled to an opinion? Should we let them voice their opinions? Should we get the mods to shut down the insensitive ones?

You see where this is going? It's an endless trap to nowheresville. And I've been caught up in it, too - I'm guilty, too - and not proud of it. I've been trying to take a different route and not get drawn into the crap anymore. That's my contribution at this point: try not to create anymore unproductive BS (which means ignoring posts I don't like).

The Holy Grail is to find how to keep DUers focused into productive action, and the namecalling would automatically diminish.

[Rex]

71. Stop typing!

Series!!! :rofl:

[symbolman]

86. Did you see how I didn't respond to you?

Slick, huh? :)

[Rex]

92. I loved it!

As you can see, I'm not as slick. ;)

[banjoterror]

177. Actually...

Your tone is the disgusting one.

[Bluebear]

194. Yes, thank you for that important interjection.

By the way, I think the poster and I had a meeting of the minds oh, 12 hours ago regarding this, OK?

[RevCheesehead]

61. You might want to edit your post.

It still says RAPING.

[nonconformist]

119. Great post! nt

[ClintonTyree]

229. I wholeheartedly agree with you.....

people have turned Ms. Sheehan into a demigod. She's not. I respect her and wish her well but she is not the be all and end all of the anti-war movement. Everyone's opinion is valid, at least it should be. Some have forgotten that fact and are getting, as you say, quite disgusting and rude. I just wish everyone would chill out over this. What's done is done.

Ms. Sheehan needs a rest. I hope she's allowed to get it and isn't pushed and pulled further by her "supporters", past the breaking point, if she hasn't been already.

[Joe for Clark]

44. No, it doesn't count - neither does mine.

There are about 50,000 kids that do count now.

I listen to her - about the war cause I really don't care about anything else - and I think -If or when I am just another gold star parent I will speak and act with pure venom. She was pretty rationale to me - and I won't be. I could only spew venom. I know.

Look, my kid steps the wrong way - doesn't get out quickly enough, stands in the wrong place when a mortar goes off - then what difference does it make.

It is all luck you know. Good or bad. Live or die.

Man, my daddy ran an oil company - and I will only see the worst. And I understand, fully, what shit thru a goose means.

She was controlled - I admire it so much - some of us will not be - and that is a fact. I could never do that. Kill my kid - I only understand vengence. She saw more. She is pretty smart.

Joe

[tammywammy]

15. Yep

That pretty much sums up what I think as well.

[zulchzulu]

18. Consider who Cindy Sheehan is...she needs some time away from the spotlight

I don't agree with a fair amount of what she said or did in Act III*, but she was pretty much cast into the limelight when she first showed up at Crawford. That was Act I.

Act II was when she started getting more interviews, more scrutiny, more character-assassination from the right, more attention from the left. Then handlers and other hangers-on started whispering in her ear to become more provocative and controversial. As the song goes:

Blinded by the light
Mama always told me not to look into the sights of the sun
Oh but mama that's where the fun is...

*Act III was basically where it lead after the Democrats won. This is where I thought she was getting a little too impatient with how legislation and democracy works.

She needs a rest. She needs to reflect on that spiraling madness she just went through. She needs to grieve more for her son, who, if anything, could represent to all as a symbol of a mother's undying love for him as he was sent off into a needless battle.

It's all certainly Shakespearian and would even make for an interesting anti-war opera. But we need to let her find solace and heal without picking on her.

There are other battles to fight.

[Joe for Clark]

88. What do you think drove her -democratic politics??

SHe is just a parent that wanted to make sure other parents never felt what she felt.


She really tried her best.

Joe

[Virginia Dare]

158. I didn't think politics drove her at all..

that's why it's puzzling that a posting on a political message board would be the impetus for her resignation. At any rate, I admire her for her efforts, and I wish her well. I hope she takes some time to rest and reflect and then finds her own voice again.

I think that some day Cindy Sheehan will receive the Congressional Medal of Honor.

[noamnety]

26. You seem to have decided for her

that she ought to be a single issue spokesperson.

She should have stuck to whatever message or messages SHE wanted to stick to. She's under no obligation to anyone else to stick to their talking points, least of all yours.

People said the same about MLK, Jr. when he started speaking out against the Vietnam War. Oh, he needs to shut up about that and stick to race issues, that's what he's ALLOWED to talk about. All that other stuff is hurting "the movement."

Well, he was right about racism, and he was right about the war, and he was right about how all those dots were connected.

It doesn't do any good to end THIS war without addressing the underlying causes of war, and you can't do that without talking about oppression and human rights and all that other stuff, unless your goal is to end THIS war so we can move quicker to the NEXT war.

There's a reason she met with Chavez, and it is related to the war, whether or not you can see that.

[Joe for Clark]

96. For god's sake -

She spoke to parents whose kid was in this dumb war. That is all.

Lets see, since she spoke to Chavez she must be a communist nut - is that what you are saying?

Well, than since Bush spoke with Iranian terrorists - he must be a terrorist -

Oh yeah - he is leader of the country - she is just a parent that lost her kid.

Come on.

Joe

[jkg4peace]

124. there's a reason she met with Chavez

Duh, she was at the World Social Forum and she was invited to be at the table on stage with him along with a whole bunch of other major figures in the global world peace and social justice movement who were present at the WSF. Chavez gave an incredible speech (I was there)and Cindy sat there with everyone else. He nick-named her Mrs. Hope or something like that. Lots of people met with Hugo Chavez. Perhaps she met with him later, too. Chavez is a model to us all on grassroots organizing and peaceful, democratic revolution - he opposes this war and the imperialism perpetuated by this administration (he is literally one of us - a great liberal activist) but I see there are DUers (or freepers posing as) here that get their info from the MSM.

But everything she has ever said was right on. I have seen her speak so many times, marched with her, hugged her, read her letters and books. I agree with the others here who say how unbelievably rational, thoughtful, and consistent she was in her message. She was so REAL, taking it all the way without holding back, and setting an incredible example for the rest of us. She risked it all for a country that, imho, isn't worth shit -- it's not just the government, it is the people who are rotten. I used to think it was just that they didn't realize what was happening, but even after everything is all out in the open, they still don't give a shit. "Oh well, we still have the most stuff, so that makes us the best." Impeachment off the table -- wtf? I am at the point where I think this country deserves to implode. The only way I keep my sanity is by plotting my escape. Jodi Guyot, Phoenix, AZ

[Virginia Dare]

160. Maybe that's where the downfall came..

maybe Cindy Sheehan isn't what people wanted her to be, or to force her to be, "a great liberal activist". Maybe she was just a grieving mother who was trying to make some sense out of a lost son, and she actually had the guts to do something about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. I think DU got hurt worse than Cindy did

Just got an email updating a few of us on Cindy. She is fine, relaxing and enjoying her kids.

From reading her interview with Amy Goodman today, it sounds like she has a plan and it is probably a brilliant one.

I have never had so many emails or phone calls or PMs about one person in just a few days. Even when my mom died, not this many people contacted me. Many people are energized and feeling the need to step up and get involved or more involved in the peace movement. My own local group is calling a special meeting to discuss strategy and a renewed focus.

So I think it's all good.

Oh and if anyone wants to send cards, etc to Cindy ->

Gold Star Families for Peace
2010 Linden Avenue
Venice, CA 90291

[jpgray]

32. I'm curious what the reaction would be if Pelosi quit or Kucinich quit

They get plenty of grief on DU. Much as I love Dennis, I've compared him to a lawn gnome at times. :D Pelosi gets called a corporate whore perennially--is it particular with Sheehan, or do people oppose all these sorts of smears on politicians? In my view, it's just something public figures have to deal with.

[Bluebear]

37. Pelosi and Kucinich ran for office. Sheehan was pulled into this over her child's death.

That delineates the difference for me. She never asked for this fight but was willing to take it on when Casey died.

[jpgray]

40. She chose to speak out. Doubtless Pelosi or Kucinich had formative experiences that pushed them too

But that's beside the point. Suppose Bush lost a son in Iraq--would that make his views any less subject to criticism and name-calling? It's just what political, public figures have to deal with.

[Bluebear]

42. If Bush lost a son in Iraq, he still would have been a politician going into it.

Bush, Pelosi, Kucinich, put themselves in the spotlight.

I just don't think Sheehan is an "attention whore" who wanted this fight.

[jpgray]

51. I don't agree she's an attention whore, and I think such comments are in bad taste

However I do think any and all public figures have to be ready to take some bad shit. Are some more deserving than others? Sure. But deciding there are some things that can and cannot be said about someone just doesn't seem like a good idea.

[Bluebear]

52. I can agree with that. nt

[Bake]

114. Pulled into this? No, she made a choice.

Nobody forced her to start Camp Casey. Nobody forced her to do anything. It was her choice, and there are ramifications that go along with that. She got tired of those ramifications, and I can't say that I blame her for that. I hope she gets some rest and some peace.

Bake

[Neecy]

34. it's an interesting point of view

Some people here support her so it's the obligation of the others to, "frankly", deflate the sacred cow. Ergo, the trashing of Sheehan is actually the fault of her supporters. Wow.

I do think some of the praise has gotten a little over the top, like the Rosa Parks elevation. But that came after this shitstorm began.

[LanternWaste]

168. I think there is a bit of...

I think (not "I know", but "I think") there is a bit of "deflate the sacred cow simply because it's a sacred cow. Shun convention/tradition simply because it's convention/tradition. Try to shock people for no other reason than to shock people" thinking that enters into the Sheehan debate. I've always thought that was simply a cynical game played by the youth-- maybe not so much anymore.

It may be that there are some posters who have legitimate and/or valid criticisms of her, but I simply don't see many of those posts (but then I may not be looking hard enough); nor do I see many people deifying her (but again, I may not be looking hard enough).

Mostly what I see are posts justifying why it's not necessarily a bad thing to trash her (with carefully chosen words) and counter-posts responding to those.

But I don't know very much anymore.... :shrug:

[WiseButAngrySara]

39. "in a democracy, everybody's opinion matters" Not even here

at DU does that hold. Have you ever visited the I/P Forum and opposed Israel? I suspect that you are one of the "DUers (that) did it to Cindy Sheehan."

[Bake]

115. Nope. Not me.

I never put her on the "beyond reproach" pedestal, nor did I ever criticize her personally or minimize her loss. I questioned her tactics on certain issues (see the OP). Others at DU did those things. I've got nothing to apologize for.

Bake

[GeorgeGist]

54. Self-deception is powerful stuff.

Good night and good luck getting over yours.

[Generator]

56. The criticism towards her

doesn't bother me as much as the fact that others are not bothered by her "goodbye" letter. This is her devastating point: the Democratic party is not what it claims to be, it is not an opposition party. Her letter was defacto admission of failure that anything can be accomplished with liars and criminals (politicians). Some are angry at her-they disagree. She has called out their religion-and GOD is dead, it's blasphemy. The anger there is either denial or stupidity, because the fact of everything in her letter is so clear to me I've never felt that way before. WHEN the only authentic face of dissent the fucking country calls your bluff, it's time to listen. What leaders do we have? ?????????????????????????????????????????????

I think many don't even get it-read Skinner's plea-she didn't "quit" because she was called a name for Christ's sake. This isn't about Democratic Underground. That he thinks that she would come back to the movement because he apologizes-no maybe she'd come back if the Democrats acted like they had a conscience and a soul.

I'm stunned and shaken. It's been coming but this was it. The denial on this site is too much. I can't take this blind faith in politics that has gained us absolutely nothing in six years. That's insanity. Absolutely fucking insanity.

And you know what-I didn't like Cindy's comments about Chavez or some about Israel. Where the fuck can I go-it's all total freaking far left wing hysteria-"FREE PALESTINE" or this site which asks me to defy logic and my heart and believe that those that have never done what they said are magically going to do so now.

It's not even freaking about Cindy Sheehan. It's that we are utterly alone. I take that back-it is about Cindy Sheehan-she is proof of our failure, our impotence, and that we are just as freaking scummy as the bad guys. No wonder she gets called names.

[BeHereNow]

72. AMEN.

Now, you've nailed it.
"we are just as freaking scummy as the bad guys"

That's the element on DU of late that REALLY disturbs me.
Cindy said it prefectly during the Amy Goodman interview today
when she pointed out that BOTH sides of the aisle are owned by the
MIC.
One could say she has had the cruelest of all awakenings, aside from
losing her child to a lie. She believed, as many here did, that the democrats would
turn the train around.

Sometimes it is also had to tell the trolls from the DU members,
just as it is hard to tell the "dems" from the "repubs."

That is all.

BHN

[RevCheesehead]

77. And I "Amen" your "Amen."

:hi:

[Dhalgren]

80. You have put your finger directly upon the problem. All of this is based

in some manner on Sheehan's rejection of the Democratic Party. But she makes it clear that she feels as though the Party rejected her. I feel as though it has rejected me, as well. You are right. We have been brought up short by the realization that we have no one at our backs. And it is lonely and scary out here all by ourselves...

[BeHereNow]

98. On our own. Exactly.

Those who wish to delude themselves otherwise at this point
only increase their own peril for lack of preparation with regards to this fact.

They are like people in the middle of an ocean waiting for a lifeline.
Time to start swimming cause the rope aint comin.

BHN

[G_j]

190. thank you! and

if many others would show the guts that women like Cindy Sheehan, Medea Benjamin or Jodie Evans have, we wouldn't have to bemoan one person taking leave. It also shows a miserable failure of the people to walk their talk.

Scary perhaps to some people here: if the Democratic party has failed to stand up and do what is right, even when they have the power to do so, then how relevant is DU now with it's basic goal of supporting the party, when people see the chances of ending the war swirling down the drain and fading fast?

[nini]

65. I've said it before.. much of what was said was during flamewars

and was meant to piss off those of who you speak, more than attack Sheehan.

Cindy did so much good, suffered so much, but some of her worshipers scare me at times and would not allow for discussion if it didn't fit their image of her.

I doubt 99% of the heated words would ever have come out if dialog and discussion were allowed in threads regarding her.

[bettyellen]

97. so people flamed because they were't "allowed" to discuss Cindy in a civil manner....

you believe people werre forced tp flame her? LOL. I've heard a few claim that, how embarrassing to have such little self control.

[nini]

165. Read my comments again

That's NOT what I said. Your perception and comments only prove my point.

[bettyellen]

221. "99% of the heated words would ever have come out if dialog and discussion were allowed "

what am i misunderstanding.
who stopped y'all from keeping your cool and staying civil? no one.

[patrice]

78. Self-criticism is an essential part of all *real* Revolutions. nm

[Deja Q]

82. I don't believe in toeing lines. I believe in asking questions and searching for the reality.

It's also why I'm unpopular once I leave the Lounge. :D (and even then.)

(And Freepers hate me more, don't worry.)

[mzteris]

203. have I told you lately

how much I :loveya: ??

You're my kinda person!!

:hug:

[idgiehkt]

83. Maybe this site needs to change its name?

I went through google and went back three pages finding Sheehan's actions linked with citations of DU...this was inevitable, I suppose. DU can't be all things to all people. The internet isn't generally viewed as a 'respectable' medium, but Sheehan is naming an internet message board, on it's main rival as one reason for her withdrawal. So in a sense she was using it as a representation of Democrats in general, whom she feels are not behind her. I don't particularly think leftist sacred cows need to be taken apart on this site because the right will do that for us, guaranteed. I wonder how this will hurt DU in the long run, or if it somehow deems DU irrelevant now among left-leaning political internet entities.

[LBJDemocrat]

95. It won't hurt DU

You'd have to be an imbecile to think that DU is generally against Sheehan. What she did helped DU, if anything. All publicity is good publicity.

And I think it's perfectly fair for someone on this website to criticize her.

[idgiehkt]

100. Time will tell...

I know papers like the Tribune ran the quotes and people reading articles like that won't know anything about DU and will wonder why an entity like DU said (as they will read it as the viewpoint of one person) something so vile about one of their own. I didn't say it wasn't 'fair' for people here to criticize her, just not really necessary. I mean, I personally don't care whether people do or not, but I guess they shouldn't be surprised when she indicts DU on Kos if that is the case.

[Decruiter]

84. I have to argue, DU'ers did nothing to Cindy. Nothing.

How many of us here have been discouraged? How many disheartened? How many gave up and quit, permanently or came back, refreshed and renewed?

How many of you felt personally attacked by others here at DU?

Did any of you ever take it so public?

DU did nothing to Cindy but support Cindy most all of the time in some pretty damned amazing ways.

Peace

[Bluebear]

104. "DU did nothing to Cindy but support Cindy" - - that is not accurate

"DU" does not move as one single formation. Many did not agree with her and said so. That is their right, but please don't say that "DU did nothing to Cindy but support Cindy."

[bonito]

85. Well than criticize me as well, I'm human

And theres no excuse for being human, While I wish I would be doing more to stop these neocons from doing further damage, I do what best I can muster tripping all over myself now and again, mistakes come with the human element me included.

I don't hold Cindy on any high pedestal or beyond reproach, but she has certainly accomplished more than anyone could expect, and too her effort I will support unless a incarnation of an enlightened one should appear, I'm not holding my breath, in the mean time its up to us humans.

[Danger Mouse]

87. Thank you for posting this!!

Some of the rude, nasty, and insulting posts that you have received in this thread only prove your point.
Cindy Sheehan was important, but she was/is NOT above reproach. Having a different opinion from someone does not automatically make you 'right,' and the person that disagrees with you a 'moron.' Unfortunately, DU does have a tendency to put certain people up on pedestals, and supporters of that individual will rabidly attack anyone who dares criticize them.
The same is true of Cindy Sheehan. Calling her an attention whore is wrong and in poor taste. Disagreeing with her or criticizing her is perfectly acceptable. Why? Because this is a democracy where everyone has the right to free speech. YOU do not have the right to restrict the speech of others just because you don't like what people are saying.
Unfortunately, the price we pay for freedom of speech is people like Fred Phelps.
It is discouraging to see DUer's who try to suppress the right of others to express their opinions...that's a tactic of the far right. Do we really want to sink to that level? A lot of us are upset about what happened to Cindy...for various reasons. There's a lot of emotion involved, and a lot of anger.
Understood.
However, DUer's do not have the right to take away the right of their fellow DUer's to express their opinions, even when they disagree. If a post is within the rules of our forums, then the poster has a right to say them.
I applaud your courage in posting this, knowing that you would get flamed. :applause: :yourock: :woohoo:

[Bake]

116. I'd be disappointed if certain hooligans didn't flame me.

Just sayin' ...

Bake

[mconvente]

180. dbake, I agree with your sentiment

History may well judge Cindy Sheehan in the same category of great humanity leaders like MLK, Jr. and Rosa Parks, among many others. But I think it is too mighty to let ourselves right now make that judgment. She has done amazing feats for the anti-war movement. To have our so-called "Cowboy" president afraid to meet with a grieving mother of a fallen soldier... let's just say "The Decider" became "The Actor" - and a bad one at that. But to put her in the same sentence - at least in our era now - of a man who led a "Million Man March" is quite hasty in my opinion.

I totally disagree with those here who called Cindy an "Attention Whore" and other horrible names. But I do agree with the statements that say she isn't as versed in the legislative process as politicians.

And by legislative process, I mean "legislative process".

I'm an active member of my student government at Rutgers University. I work personally with the President and his administration on getting increased funding for higher education in general in NJ - most of which would go to Rutgers because we are the biggest state higher ed. institution in the state. For those of you outside NJ (or even in NJ who don't know), Rutgers' budget was cut $66 million dollars last year. You know what that means - 400 classes canceled, 200 professors and administrators laid off, mega tuition increase, the loss of a scholarship program that attracts honor students, level funding for the Tuition Aid Grants (TAG), which help fund the poorest of poor students education. And after holding a rally in Trenton and all this non-conciliatory actions, we were told basically to not bother. So we changed our gears - we started more friendly talks with the state legislature and the governor, and we received a small ($12 million) though decent increase in funding.

My overall point is in order to get our small increase, I, along with other students, attended meetings with the governor's staff, met with numerous state legislators, invited them to our general body meetings, etc. We kissed ass to the state legislature. So the NJ State budget has some pork to things - it doesn't matter, because we got extra funding. And you know what - some people here just think government should be fair, that we shouldn't have to "kiss ass" or have "meetings". Well you know what - I'm gonna do what it takes to make sure the student working three jobs and having 18 credits has a little easier time going to college - even if I have to "kiss ass" and have "meetings".

A lot of people here on DU just don't get that. Like the woman who stopped Rep. Obie in the hallway or Code Pink who disrupted the Dem. press conference - they don't get it. It sucks, it really fucking sucks. But that's how it is. We tried the disruptive method here in Trenton and we got told to basically fuck ourselves.

[LBJDemocrat]

94. I agree with you.

She met with Chavez. Stuff like that risks damaging the left and costing us another election.

I'm a Democrat, not a Marxist. I can't help but get pissed off.

[Quixote1818]

99. Thank You! My feelings exactly! K & R nt

[NastyRiffraff]

109. Uh oh...see what you started?

Great post, BW, dbaker. I agree with every word. NOBODY is beyond reproach. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, and when they do, guess what? Someone (and probably more than one someone) is going to call them on it.

While I agree that some of the anti-Cindy posts were over the top ("attention whore?" Come on!) many simply disagreed with some of her methods, sometimes. But when they did, they were accused of trashing Cindy, personally, instead of simply disagreeing with one thing she did. (I know...I was called a freeper for doing just that).

That said, I hope she takes the rest she says she needs, and Godspeed.

[cynatnite]

110. Couldn't agree more n/t

[Zomby Woof]

113. You and your damn reason

:thumbsup: Good summation of much of my opinion, and more diplomatically than I would have stated it.

[Bake]

117. Thanks! Now how about some damn Zomby Coffee!!!!

I forgot, this isn't the Lounge ...

Bake

[Zomby Woof]

123. WHAT???

Are you telling me now where I can and cannot serve coffee???!!111! You should not put my coffee on a Lounge pedestal. :nuke:


;-)

[Bake]

125. Then serve it up here, dammit! No pedestal required, but I got a big ol' mug!

So there!

;-)

Bake

[EFerrari]

118. Why do you feel entitled to decide what Cindy Sheehan should

do or not do?

That's just gobsmacking.

[cynatnite]

120. It's called having an option on what she does...

and everyone's entitled to voice it.

[EFerrari]

127. As far as I know, Cindy hasn't optioned her behavior out to anyone.

[cynatnite]

222. I just realized I screwed up my post....I meant opinion...

Everyone's entitled to have an opinion about what Cindy Sheehan says and does. She put herself in the public arena and people will say what they want. My apologies for that blunder. :blush:

[Bake]

121. I don't presume to decide what she should or shoudn't do.

But when a public person does something, comment from the citizenry is not only appropriate, it is mandatory. That's why we call it democracy.

Bake

[EFerrari]

128. This is what I don't understand. Cindy Sheehan never signed

a contract that said, "I will only speak about Iraq and only in ways that aren't uncomfortable for Demcrats."

She never did that. She was honest, from start to finish. She was real. To go back and criticize her for speaking on other topics, let alone for meeting the most progressive leader in this hemisphere seems sort of strange to me. I don't get it, I guess.

She forced a public conversation this country needed. And that was astonishing.

/grammar

[Bake]

131. She entered the political arena, and it's hardball there.

No, she signed no contract. In fact, I was unaware there was a "position" from which she could "resign." Her credibility, however, rested in the area of the war in which she lost her son. The DUers who sought to deify her did so by saying that unless one had lost a son LIKE SHE DID, one should keep one's mouth shut. That happened here repeatedly, and you know it. Frankly, when she spoke on the war issue, she had moral authority, but that did not mean others lacked standing to participate. Was she required to speak only in ways that supported the Democratic Party? Of course not. But those of us who do support the Democratic Party are entitled to state our differences with her.

When she ventured into other arenas, WHICH WAS HER RIGHT, OF COURSE, she lacked both expertise and moral authority. "The most progressive leader in this hemisphere?" That's a subject for honest debate, and I suspect you and I would come down on different sides of that fence, given events of the past day or so. Injecting herself into Israel/Palestinian issues? Seems to me that simply diluted her voice and was a bad tactical choice, probably driven by her entourage/handlers. As a public figure, her actions and tactics are fair game for public discourse. To suggest otherwise is, at minimum, less than "democratic."

Bake

[EFerrari]

132. Well, I guess from different vantage points, we both don't agree

with claims made on Cindy at DU and we certainly agree that public life is hardball.

[Bake]

137. Agreed!

Doesn't mean I don't still respect your opinions and posts, of course! From waaaaay back.

Bake

[MadHound]

126. So in essence what you are saying is that

It is the fault of DUers who criticized your and others like minded criticism of Cindy that she resigned. Convaluted reasoning to say the least, and that flies in the face of facts. The only DUers that Cindy mentioned effecting her decision were the ones who went beyond the bounds of cricism and took it to the personal attack stage.

Blaming that on DUers who were criticizing the critics and name callers is beyond the pale, trying to shirk responsibility for actions. Besides, if you believe in freedom of opinion as you profess, then aren't people free to voice their opinion about you and other so called critics?

Sorry, but this sounds like a very lame rationalization of what has happened. Geez, at least own up to the reality of what has happened, rather than try and put the blame on somebody else.

[Bake]

130. It's a free forum, within certain bounds set by the moderators

I don't exucse those who took the personal criticisms to extremes; they were in extremely bad taste if not par for the course here. I'm saying those who deified Sheehan basically invited the esacalation, and share some of the blame for the course things took here. Sadly, that's the nature of our public discourse these days, and that is reflected on DU.

Frankly, I hope (and believe) that Sheehan is bigger than to call it quits because of anonymous internet posters. I can certainly understand her other frustrations, particularly frustrations with Dems in Congress who did not act as quickly as she and many others wished. But if she quit because some anonymous poster on DU called her a bad name, well, then she needs to take a break.

Bake

[MadHound]

152. Yes, it is a free forum

And the fact that you're defending your position on the basis of freedom of speech, rather than on the merits of the arguement, tell me that even you don't believe in your own BS, and frankly are probably just trying to stir the shit.

Sorry, but your little "theory" is ludicrous, to say the least.

[Downtown Hound]

129. Well, I'm going to disagree

basically what you're saying is that by supporting Cindy we were somehow responsible for her being called some pretty vile stuff. I would like to point out that what started all of this wasn't some polite disagreement over Sheehan's tactics. It was some pretty vile name calling and personal attacks. You can't expect people not to respond when someone they care about is attacked. To do so is not blind hero worship, nor is it placing a human being up high on a pedestal.

This statement you make about how sacred cows need to be deflated regardless of ideology sounds just downright weird to me. First of all, I think saying that DU'ers have made Cindy a sacred cow is pretty ridiculous. People are merely grateful to her, respect her, and admire her. The two main criticisms that I've seen people level at her are that she met with Chavez and rejected the Democrats. Well guess what, there are a lot of DU'ers that support Chavez, and there are a lot of DU'ers that are equally angry at the Democrats. They're not saying that you can't criticize her. They're simply rejecting the criticism because they don't share it. To interpret this as turning Cindy into some kind of sacred cow is really nothing more than a bunch of self-pitying whining because people defended her against those attacks. As you yourself said, if it gets too hot, you get out of the kitchen.

Second of all, why do you need to deflate a sacred cow for no other reason than it's a sacred cow? Even if Cindy was one, which she wasn't, it just sounds like you're trying to pick a fight. It's like saying that the most popular kid in school needs to be humiliated because they're the most popular. All that mentality really shows is deep-rooted insecurity.

And on a final note, I think many of us are somewhat disappointed with many people on this board because sometimes it really just seems impossible to please some people. For years, we were complaining that we had no one to speak out for us, to speak out against this war. And then Sheehan appeared on the map and put the antiwar movement in high gear. Well, it didn't take too long for us to eat our own. Eventually, we drove Sheehan away. And I think that's a pretty sad statement against us as a movement. At the end of the day, I firmly believe that people would tear Jesus himself apart. If he came down and personally removed George Bush from office, ended the Iraq War, eliminated poverty, healed the environment, and made everyone's farts smell like roses, he would still be criticized by some DU'ers. I don't know how, but I'm sure they'd find a way.

And no, I'm not comparing Sheehan to Jesus, okay? I simply see Sheehan as a woman who did everything she could to try and do some good, and she got torn apart for it, first by her enemies and then by some of her allies. The point is that some people will never be happy. And the fact that many people here couldn't just recognize what she had done for us and what she was trying to do and resorted to such negativity was pretty disheartening, for me and for many others.

[Bake]

134. It didn't start with vile name calling.

It started with honest questioning of Sheehan's tactics and choices as to other issues, as I stated in the OP and in other posts in this thread. Those who questioned were immediately cut off. There is a difference between "supporting Cindy" and deifying her, as happened here.

If you don't know why "sacred cows" are to be deflated, let me try to explain. A sacred cow is something is that is to be accepted without question. In our democratic tradition, NOTHING is beyond question. To put it another way, consider this: we regularly (and rightly) question the freeper mentality that no one should question or criticize George W. Bush. Do we not? Of course we do. Do we not criticize those who accept certain religious beliefs without question? Of course we do. But we have our own sacred cows on the left side of the spectrum. Cindy Sheehan became one here, not so much by HER intention as by the perhaps well-meaning overzealous support of some here. But no one, and nothing, should be accepted without question. That's my point about "sacred cows." I don't think Sheehan ever wanted to be elevated to that pedestal.

Some people raised valid questions about whether Sheehan's tactics helped or hurt the Democratic Party's agenda, or the anti-war movement's agenda. Those questions needed to be discussed rationally rather than emotionally, and they continue to need discussion today, not so much in the context of Cindy Sheehan personally but in the context of the best way to bring about the desired result.

I don't think "we" drove Sheehan away. She had the support of most Democrats until she "got off the reservation," so to speak, and then some Democrats began to question her tactics. I wouldn't say "we" drove her away so much as she found herself no longer comfortable with Democrats.

Bake

[Downtown Hound]

135. Yes, it did start with vile name calling

This Sheehan fiasco erupted when Sheehan posted some of the things she was called here on Kos. That's what started all of this.

And as I said, no one ever said you couldn't question Cindy, and it really is ridiculous to suggest that they did. No one made her into a sacred cow. You are the one making her into that because you don't like the fact that you got resistance from people that didn't share your criticisms of her. It was a clashing of opinions, and that happens on these boards. But you're turning yourself and others who think like you into abused martyrs. I for one happen to support Cindy meeting with Chavez, because I happen to support Chavez. And I support her right to criticize Democrats, even though I've always voted Democrat except for a few times many years ago that I voted Green. And I will continue to vote Democrat. But the Democrats aren't immune from criticism either, or from protest. There are Democrats that have supported this war and enabled it, and if Sheehan is going to risk arrest by shouting them down in protest, I support her right and her spirit in doing so.

So you disagree? Fine then, we disagree. But stop making yourself into a martyr and saying that we turned Sheehan into some Christ-like figure and oppressed your right to criticize. It was called a clashing of opinions. It happens.

Cindy Sheehan is not a sacred cow, no one ever said she was, except for you. And no one brought down the name-calling on her except for the people that did it. And they need to take responsibility for that. And you need to stop making excuses for them.

[Bake]

136. I never claimed to be a martyr.

Certainly not on an internet discussion board -- martyrdom means far more than that! I'm hardly a martyr. My fingers are NOT bleeding on the ol' keyboard.

You act as if this all started this week with Sheehan's post on Kos. It goes back much further than that, if you've been around here for a while you know that. It started when Sheehan entered the public arena. The questions/criticisms quickly elevated into name calling. And that's a shame.

I didn't "make" Sheehan a "sacred cow." I use that term to characterize the hero worship/deification on the part of certain of her supporters that I've witnessed here. Frankly, I'm a supporter to, to a large extent. Just not universally.

You seem to have a problem seeing shades of gray. It's not just black and white. Few things are.

Bake

[Downtown Hound]

139. No, you never claimed to be a martyr, but you're acting like one

And I know that the Cindy discussions have been going on for a long time, but they blew up with the force of a thousand hydrogen bombs in the last few days, and that is what has led to all the flamewars that we've been seeing. And all that started with some people devolving into the realm of personal attacks. You make the claim that they were somehow forced into doing that because their voices "cut off" when they dared to question our religious prophet, Cindy Sheehan. And that, is what I'm saying, is ridiculous.

What happened was they got genuine opposition from people that didn't agree with them, and there were a lot of people that didn't agree with them. Now, because of this, you make the claim that we turned Cindy Sheehan into a God. And that's just bullshit. And it's a total martyrdom mentality. We simply support her and what she's done. She wants to meet with Chavez? Fine by us. Excellent as a matter of fact. Who cares what the right wing punditry says about it? If we're going to be damned by them, then let's be damned for what we truly are and not pander to their beliefs. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to like it. You can criticize it all you want here on DU. And we can defend it all we want. We can call you out to task for it. But don't go off in a huff about how you can't criticize one of our scared cows when you do get called out to task for it. That is self-pitying and it's defeatist.

What you're saying is, because there are a large amount of people on this board that don't agree with you, everything is unfair to you. Bullshit.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now. You can respond all you want, but I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this. It's a disagreement, and that's okay. There's no sacred cows here, and no one's voice is "cut off."

[Balbus]

138. This was probably the best post I read this week.

Well done :thumbsup:

[Swamp Rat]

141. Poor Cindy!

She must be sooo exhausted.

Yes, many of us have put our burdens on her already-tired shoulders, but now it's her time to rest.



There remains plenty of grieving and frightened parents who can take up leadership roles.

Let's look to them now.

[snot]

142. Pointing out imperfections has some value . . .

but what I think is most valuable is to spend the most time, space, and energy pointing out the imperfections that are the biggest and most harmful to the most people.

On the scale of human imperfections evinced by public leaders during the last several years, I'd say Cindy's are relatively microscopic.

Also, I'm pretty sure we can count on non- so-called Dems to point them out.

[earth mom]

143. First and Foremost-Cindy Sheehan deserves TOTAL respect from everyone here on DU.

And yet because she holds opinions that differ from your own opinions, you think that that makes her fair game?! :wtf:



HELL NO-I don't think so!



FYI-Cindy wasn't elected to office like Pelosi, Clinton, Obama. They are the people who are not only PAID TO DO A JOB, but also DUTY BOUND and who have SWORN AN OATH to follow the will of the majority of the people and the Constitution. They are who we should all expect the most from-that's why they need to get busy and do their fucking jobs! And BTW-did you ever stop to think that maybe your views are NOT mainstream and NOT what "THE PEOPLE" of this country really want in the first place?! :eyes:

IMO, it is ABSOLUTELY SICKENING to see a thread like this that has to nitpick every fucking thing that Cindy did or didn't do. FUCK THAT! She lost a child for a fucking LIE. Do you have any idea how devastating that is?!!! How in the hell would YOU feel in her shoes?!!! How dare you have such arrogance to judge her?!!! :grr: :mad: :grr:

[jpgray]

144. Sorry, but tragic personal events give no one a pass with regard to criticism

And public figures have to take a lot of shit--it's good in general that they do. Now whether or not some of the crap they take is tasteless or not is a matter of debate, but arguing they should be immune from it if they have a tragic enough life beforehand is silly.

[Cougar Brenneman]

145. I can't stand what was done to Cindy.

I'm only logging in here for one visit because I'm upset at what members of this organization did to Cindy Sheehan.

Without Cindy, the peace movement in this country would not be anything like it is today. I'm totally angry at the people who feel they need to stroke their own egos by putting her down. What an ego trip!

From the kinds of attitudes I read in this blog, I have no interest in being here. But I have to say out loud that what people on this site did was horrible.

Cindy single-handedly created a mass movement that really didn't exist before she came along. She gave legitimacy to a movement that was trying to hatch. I'm appalled at what I read here.

I'm not coming back to DU. I don't want to hang around people who would smear Cindy Sheehan because they need to make themselves look smart or strategic or whatever. I think those who would do that are running a racket to make themselves look big.

I'm here for one moment. And then I'm gone. And I'm disgusted. Whoever here is responsible for the insult to Cindy has slimed us all.

Yuck.

[jpgray]

146. You realize you're generalizing about an entire community based on one post by one person

Not an intelligent thing to do. I return the compliment of receiving your solitary post by saying this: don't be too quick to assume things, don't be too quick to assign "evil" and "good" labels to people, and be even less quick to assign them to large groups of people. Debate on this issue has torn up an entire forum here--that in itself might argue we are hardly as monolithically evil as you assume.

[proud2BlibKansan]

189. It wasn't just one person

Don't fool yourself.

There were several involved in the 'let's trash Cindy' game and all you have to do is look through any of these numerous threads about her to see a variety of Cindy haters in each one.

I would guess that 95% of DU loves Cindy but that other 5% is nasty in their hatred of her.

[Danger Mouse]

211. I don't love Cindy, and I was never nasty with hatred for her either.

It's not either love/hate, black/white.

[proud2BlibKansan]

242. No it wasn't and no you weren't

One of the Cindy nay-sayers has been TSed. So there is hope :)

[Marrah_G]

153. Buh-Bye

Be careful when that statue you have erected falls, it might just crush you.

:eyes:

[Tekla West]

169. And, I think, that is the problem

It was the media that put her in the position of being the "head" of the peace movement. In fact, there was a large, organized movement before she came to public light. From ANSWER, to the Longshoreman's union, to Pax Christi many people who had been working their entire lives to present a reasoned message got drowned out in her personal politics.

That was NOT her fault, but she might have seen it coming and moved a bit off camera when she did.

In the end, its not about her and her son - its about all of us, all of our children, and the 3000+ OTHER SONS and daughters who have died there.

Where was she when the original protests at the start of the war happened? Only when she suffered a personal loss, tragic that it was, did she raise her voice. She came late to the party, and left early. The media used her to discredit an entire movement, and not realizing what was happening, she went along.

[LittleClarkie]

148. It's a discussion board. We have differing opinions.

We express them. It's what we do. We are all "fair game" in that regard, and none of us are elected.

I've never been the president either. Does that mean I can't criticize Bush?

You exaggerate what the OP says. He didn't nitpick every fucking thing. Just perhaps disagreed with her occasionally. We're allowed to do that without having to lose a child first.

Thank you for illustrating his point.

She presented herself to the public. That makes her a public figure. Public figures get criticism on occasion. And that is also "fair game."

[earth mom]

162. So it's "fair game" to kick someone when they are down-eh?

This is what I think of that: :puke:

[LittleClarkie]

179. Oh yeah, and when they're not looking too

That's the best time.

Disagreeing is not kicking. Don't be so dramatic.

And I'm not talking about the current situation, I'm talking about all along. Or were we never to say a word ever?

Meanwhile, would everyone react the same to a freeper mom who lost her child?

[Danger Mouse]

212. Would everyone reach the same to a freeper mom losing her child? Don't be silly...

...if she decided to come around and join our side, she'd be loved by DU.
If she only become more freeper-ish, you can just imagine how she would be raked over the coals at DU.

[Danger Mouse]

151. It is not up to you to dictate such things or to tell DUers what they should think and who they

should and should not respect. But have fun with that.
It is also not up to you to tell them who and who they may not criticize. Within the rules of this forum, there is free speech, and EVERY public figure is subject to criticism. Yes, even Cindy Sheehan.
Some people would like to restrict and constrain the ability of some of their fellow DUer's to express their opinions because they don't LIKE those opinions.
Congratulations, then...you're acting like a freeper.

[earth mom]

163. Oh, but I'm just expressing my opinion-just like the OP.

I didn't post a big ole thread stating that people should agree with me or ELSE. That's what the OP did and I'm just here to say he's full of shit. Neither he or you can dictate to the rest of us either. :eyes:

BTW-It's the freeper M.O. to kick people when they are down. Which is EXACTLY what is happening here on DU in regards to Cindy. :puke:

[Danger Mouse]

209. You didn't start the thread but you DID tell people how they should think

and what opinions you think they are not allowed to have.
Like it or not, you are trying to suppress the free speech of others.
The OP wasn't telling people that they should agree with him OR ELSE. He was just saying that it's unhealthy to put anyone on a pedastal and pretend that they're above criticism.
Because they're not.
As I said before, Cindy Sheehan is not above criticism. She is a public figure. She MADE herself a public figure. Therefore, her actions are subject to criticsm.

[Bake]

166. You. Just. Proved. My. Point.

Everybody get that?

Bake

[earth mom]

171. What-that you like to kick people when they are down?

:puke:

[AtomicKitten]

147. I agree.

I have never understood the fawning adoration versus abject contempt modes that dominate DU and I more often than not fall somewhere in between.

Cindy's message was never more powerful and pure than when she was sitting outside Junior's ranch. And then it became diluted and polluted with other 'stuff.'

I wish her well.

[LittleClarkie]

149. She was indeed the face of the movement then

But it was a fleeting moment. I don't think the public at large even thinks much about her and her activities, if at all.

She got the ball rolling. It has been rolling without her for a while now.

[Virginia Dare]

161. I agree...

and I see it coming over the horizon with Al Gore. So many people here have put him up on this soaring pedestal. They have created all of these fantasies about how he is going to save the party, save the country, save the world. He can't possibly live up to these lofty expectations.

I see your avatar, and I'm not picking on you at all, I'm not anti-Gore, for the most part he's a fine Democrat and I admire him for the things that he's done since leaving office, but he's no hero. No politician is.

[AtomicKitten]

167. DU has already begun

... tipping Al Gore off the pedestal re: his comments about how the House voted on the Iraq funding bill, dissecting his innocuous statements to further their own agenda. As with any slice of life, DU is inhabited by some people that thrive on negativity and discord.

It was a matter of time and so very DU. Ugh.

Regardless, I would be one happy camper if he ran for a number of reasons, and I'm fully aware of and am okay with his peccadilloes and shortcomings. I have never thought he was the Messiah, just a man who is probably one of the best qualified to run and someone who deserves a do-over because he had his heart ripped out through his ass in 2000 courtesy of a judicial coup d'etat.

[Mike Daniels]

154. I supported her general message but I stopped supporting her after her hissy fit

when Katrina took some media coverage away from her.

[noamnety]

155. sexist bullshit duly noted.

hissy fit?

for Katrina taking coverage AWAY From her?

Camp Casey packed up their supplies and brought them TO the victims when Katrina hit.

I was one of the people that walked with her from Mobile to New Orleans, who watched her speak alongside Malik Rahim, and gave press conferences to CNN and Al Jazeera and MSNBC, and local papers specifically to get coverage FOR Katrina.

That's one of the most clueless comments I've read here in a long long time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. What?

She donated most of what was left at Camp Casey to Katrina relief. But I suppose you think she did that to get attention. :eyes:

[Virginia Dare]

157. No, DU had nothing to do with it...

the antiwar movement did it to her by using her in a most unseemly way.

[Ganja Ninja]

159. I feel the same way as Obama.

Why should I apologize for what someone else said? The woman is taking a rest. I suggest we give her one as well.

[emilyg]

170. I agree

This will give her time to spend with her surviving child. Andthat's a good thing.

[19jet54]

175. With all due respect...

... try 10 years of getting shot at for your country, with nothing in retun but disrespect - Enough already!

[dogday]

176. That's a load of crap...

If you say something bad about someone, that comes from you, from your attitude... Whatever anyone else says or does, it is ultimately you who assumes the responsibility for your actions...

[Pyrzqxgl]

183. Its hard to be a celebrity and a celebrity on the left is no exception.

You can't expect someone who had instant "celebrity" forced on her
by such a tragedy in her life, to do everything everyone wants. It's
time to let her have some time to herself, without the pushing.

[cooolandrew]

185. I am confused the majority of posters supported Cindy...

... It is probably an amalgamation of things that led to her being upset by some posters. Whatever side you are on not everyone will agree with you. I hope she can realise that most people do support her and the faction called liberals is a very variating spectrum of opinion. For me she will always be one of the first heroes of the opening century.

[MethuenProgressive]

186. Bake, she didn't get her son killed so she could become popular.

And I'm rather tired of the tiny sub-set of DUers who insist on beating this dead horse after they've successfully killed it. You won. Now shut up.

[Bake]

192. Where in the HELL did I suggest that????

That Cindy got her son shot so she could become popular??? You'll have to show me the link and the quote on that one!

S-T-R-A-W M-A-N.

Frankly, this was NOT a bash-Cindy thread. It was a critique of the attitudes of a lot of DUers who put her on the pedestal in the first place, which, I posited, led to an escalation of the flame-throwing resulting in the more outrageous and tasteless comments like "attention whore."

You either totally misunderstood me, or you're looking to argue a totally different point than I.

Bake

[Javaman]

187. Admins, lock this crap, let Cindy take a break already.

need we keep going on with the nonsense?

[19jet54]

193. I agree...

I have no issues with Cindy whatsoever, and really admire her; But when does admiration turn to an unhealthy following or worship? When people will not stop talking about it!

"A fanatic is a person who will not change their mind, and won't change the subject." - Winston Churchill

[MethuenProgressive]

197. "A fanatic is a person who will not change their mind, and won't change the subject."

Nice Churchill quote. The "Let's Keep Kicking Cindy While She's Down" fanatics just can't seem to help themselves from starting thread after thread rejoicing about it.

[19jet54]

200. You totally misunderstand?

The quote was not directed at Cindy, but the "Charles Manson" like followers who keep bringing up this crap! I went back & checked, almost all of the "disrespectful comments about Cindy" came from one person, who is not me. Go beat them up & leave the rest of us alone, please! And, if you check, that one person was challenged very aggressively by the other DUers for their comments, even though they have a right to say it?

[MethuenProgressive]

213. Man, are you confused!

You rail against "the "Charles Manson" like followers who keep bringing up this crap!" and ignore the thread you're posting to?
19jet, please look at the first post in this thread.
If you do, you will see this crap wasn't brought up by one of Cindy's supporters.
I suggest to you that you first read threads before responding to what you assume they're about.

[19jet54]

218. I assume this is a covert operation with plausible deny-ability?

One of the more recent threads by "supporters" contained an "open threat" of "or else"! Most people do not respond well to threats? With threats go all creditability? I do not know "who" to believe without a shit-load of homework to find out "who is who" on both sides - you will pardon me if I simply do not take things at face value?

Let's just leave it at "We agree to dis-agree" and move on!

[MethuenProgressive]

196. There's a DU sub-set who can't stop dancing on Casey's...er, Cindy's grave.

And some find the need to begin their own threads to keep the dance going.
They won. She left. They need to show, finally show, some class and move on.

[racaulk]

201. Agreed

Do we have to keep rehashing the same arguments on Cindy in this forum? Enough already!

[Danger Mouse]

214. Free speech. Free speech. Got it yet?

Free speech.
Criticism is free speech. Criticism of a public figure is not restricted on DU.
Cindy Sheehan is a public figure.
I have nothing critical to say about her per se, but I will defend the right of posters on this forum to criticize her if they disagree with her actions.
She is not above criticism.
But have fun with the trying to suppress the rights of others to express their opinions just because you don't like to hear what they have to say.

[MethuenProgressive]

219. Free Hate Speech, too?

I do have the right to object to it, don't I? You know, what with free speech and all...

[Danger Mouse]

225. Hate speech is protected speech, even though it is vile.

That's why the KKK and Fred Phelps are allowed to have a voice, as disgusting as they are.
Hate speech is not protected speech on DU, obviously. However, the OP is not hate speech.
It is merely someone pointing out that it was a bad idea to put Cindy Sheehan (or ANYONE) up on a pedestal.
Again I say...Cindy Sheehan is not exempt from criticism.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

188. Personally, I'd probably go completely beserk if I had a kid killed in that war.

I'd make Cindy look like a wallflower. I can't really blame her for anything she does.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

199. agreed. i said this on willpitts thread a few days ago.

[Danger Mouse]

216. hey pri! good to see you here =)

how's it goin?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

235. hi you!

its weird to see loungers in gd :)

[Danger Mouse]

238. I crawled out from under my rock.

It was getting too slimy down there.
:P

[itsrobert]

204. Well, her Farewell Tour is going on longer than

the Rolling Stones farewell tour.

She's been on Randi, Ed, KLSD local, CNN, MSNBC, etc, etc, etc, saying how she's giving it up.

[Bluebear]

205. Everything else aside, I remember Naomi Judd's farewell tour.

When she contracted hepatitis, she announced she had to quit The Judds for health reasons. Well, the farewell tour went on for like two years, prompting me to think "how can we miss you if you don't go away?"

[itsrobert]

206. Exactly, Cindy's going to break Naomi's record n/t

n/t

[racaulk]

207. Come on now! Naomi Judd has nothing on Cher!

I love her, but how many "farewell" tours has she had? :rofl:

[Tigress DEM]

208. People should quit trying to define what others think...and then speak for them.

The actual text of Cindy's goodbye spoke about multiple things that caused her to bow out.

Nearly dying last summer and having debts going into collection from that illness.

Death threats. Not necessarily from DU, but she didn't say where they came from.

Being dis-disillusioned because people in the DEM party, not just on DU but in the Peace Movement in general who she has seen more interested in jockeying for position instead of developing and/or demonstrating the necessary skills to be peacemakers.

If you didn't write the email that was the last straw for Cindy & DU then don't take it personal.

As far as people defending Cindy against "differences of opinion" well the thing is, she isn't usually here to defend herself and people are speaking out against her as a person. Someone gets famous and they are supposed to be "more than" or know how to do it in a way that "everybody" can agree on. News to us all, ain't gonna happen in a true Democracy because such a person would never get anything done waiting for all DEMs to agree on anything.

DUers defending a person who is actually boots on the ground and moving forward with courage ahead of the rest of us and by doing so paving the way, right or wrong, seems more natural than all the pissing contests that happen here.

By the tone of your post, if I were Cindy myself I wouldn't be offended by your opinions. But the attitude you have toward labeling people as "sacred cows" then deciding it's the right thing to do to go and "deflate them" just sounds like an excuse to say mean things about her or anyone you deem needs to be taken down a peg.

Giving out reality checks, speaking your own truth, that's one thing. But defending anyone who personally attacks someone by saying well other people don't think she should be criticized at all, just sounds like excusing people for being petty.

[shallowthroat]

224. Attention all heroes

The reality of the matter is the Democratic Party is also bought and sold - a tidbit more attractive than the GOP - but still handled by the same paymaster. Talk about sacred cows.... both these parties are crapola and deserve an extremely heavy dose of criticism.

Cindy Sheehan is a hero. Not because you and I know her name; know her philosophy; or see her in the news. She is a hero because she is fighting a juggernaut, our government (both GOP and DEM by the way), which was usurped a long, long time ago by corporate interests. She is a hero because she has lost so much, before and after, her decision to take on that fight.

She was a mother and tried to become something more because she thought it could change things; becuase it is HER ACTIONS that give her son's death meaning. So she is not perfect. She doesn't understand the intricacies of politics, the subtleties of diplomacy, or the spin of public relations. But she is honest and true of heart. I think her criticism of the Establishment i.e. the government, the GOP, the DEMS, the Peace Movement, etc is more practical than anyone here can muster. Only the naive would believe there are not certain entities within the Peace Movement that have their own interests at heart. Probably as many demagogues and meglomaniacs there as in the White House.

I think she found she was surrounded by forces that worked against her. And in the end she just plain old grew jaded; first in body then in mind.

She was sometimes given the messanianic qualities you complained about; but I don't remember her ever giving them to herself. She made some mistakes, sure, but you only make mistakes from trying. And that's a lot more than can be said of me or anyone else on this board. She gave and lost much more than we have.

[mzteris]

210. the fanatical "supporters"

remind me of the fundies that finally ran me of religion all together.

(Not that all the supporters are fanatical - not that all non-supporters are vile - )

but anyway - you said it very well indeed.

Too bad some people can't read and insist on turning this thread into something it's not!

[MethuenProgressive]

215. the fanatical "haters"

have turned their hatred of Sheehan onto anyone who objects to the way they express their hatred of Sheehan. They won. She's quit. They need to learn how to be good winners.
I object to the vile, childish, Republican, and inhuman expressions of hatred heaped on this Gold Star Mother (a pause here while the haters Google Gold Star Mother...) by people who supposedly are also anti-Iraq war. I hope soon the haters turn their energies away from her, and towards Bush and his war in Iraq.

[nini]

230. Who said they HATED Sheehan?

Are you equating criticism with hate?

[Danger Mouse]

233. Many people in this thread are doing exactly that.

In fact someone upthread said '95% of DUers love cindy, the other 5% hate her' basically.
So you're either with Cindy or you're against her?
Gee, where have I heard THAT one before?

[nini]

237. What's really funny is they're proving the OP's point

and won't accept they are.

[Danger Mouse]

239. It's also really sad.

:P

[mzteris]

240. BS - there are *maybe* on or two

"haters" - the rest - don't dislike her, we dislike the way she's been deified and declared off-limits.

Maybe she "quit" because she was put up on an unrealistic pedastal and demands made of her that she wasn't prepared (trained, etc. . . ) to meet.

Look - I know how you will probably turn this - but -

I grieve with her for the loss of her son. I can not imagine what that is like. I hope I never have to. I have two sons and a daughter. And yeah I have lost loved ones to war, btw, though not a son.

However, just because some one lost a son - or a daughter - doesn't make them the be all and end all of the Democratic party! Hells Bells - there are a whole damn lot of far right wing republican fundies who have lost children in this war. The antithesis of everything we stand for. Are you gonna deify THEM, too? What's the difference in them?

I admired her first stand at Camp Casey. But I think she lost her way. She ceased to "speak for me" soon after CC was over. Doesn't make me a bad person nor a freeper nor a Republican. I said some less than flattering - though not ugly - things about her, but you know what? It was more because of the fact I was being beat the f' -up by the fanatical "supporters" - than how I really felt about "her".

I'm sure she's a nice - nay - wonderful woman. I just don't think she really and truly belongs on the public stage.

Rip away - I'm sure you'll spin every word I've written and believe it to a "hate Cindy diatribe." Nothing could be further from the truth.

What I HATE is people who refuse to be logical and who refuse to allow anyone to disagree with them.

[Bjorn Against]

220. No no one is free from criticism, including those who criticize

You can attack all you want, but don't think you aren't going to get called out if you go after a respected figure. You are certainly allowed to speak your opinion, but don't think you are beyond reproach either.

[Pacific John]

223. Right

I wonder what the thing is about criticism for the sake of criticism? It's the mirror image of the right, who treat internal criticism as breaking a Biblical commandment.

I've only lurked here, but have seen identical exchanges at the Big Orange, the substance of which was intellectually weak.

Sucking the wind out of our own sails for just the sake of sucking the wind out of our own sails is an absurd impulse, and one that will hurt our side and our country.

At kos, the conversation went like this:

a - CS is not above criticism!

b - Well, okay. Huh? But she did help jump start the anti-war debate. She deserves a lot of support.

a - You are a fanatic for worshiping her!

b - Dude, huh, wha?

To which I say this: lack of loyalty for its own sake is not a virtue, no more than the excessive loyalty on the other side is.

[Danger Mouse]

226. True.

But telling someone they have NO RIGHT to criticize...is not cool.
It's not just expressing an opinion, it's forcing your view on someone else, trying to restrict THEIR right to express themselves, and being stunningly freeperish.
The issue he has is people telling him he CAN'T or SHOULDN'T criticize Cindy Sheehan. That's the issue I have as well. If you want to disagree with someone, that's one thing...but telling someone how to think is another.

[sniffa]

227. wow

i can't beLieve how high this is in on the greatest page.

[BobRossi]

228. Holy shit..

Feeling a little guilt are you? Get over it.

[glowing]

231. this sounds about like the attack coulter did on the 9/11 widows.

[Danger Mouse]

232. In what way?

Did he accuse Cindy of loving the fact that her son died?
No. He criticized a couple of things that she did that he did not agree with.
Wow, that sounds just like something Coulter would do!!11
Yes, he spoke of sacred cows. What he meant was, quite simply, it is unhealthy to put anyone up on a pedestal. If you create an environment where it is 'not okay' to criticize someone within the basics of civility, then you are restricting the right DUer's have to respectfully express their opinions.

[glowing]

244. He didn't do it so distastefully, but he is agreeing to the same

principle that Coulter was implying... that the Jersey wives were using their loss to push their agenda and anyone who attacked them were wrong because they had loved one's that lost their lives on 9/11. And when Coulter came out with this idea she was wrong.

Also, I don't think Cindy has ever said that someone cannot disagree with her point of view. I think that you can do it respectively.

[defendandprotect]

234. "I didn't do it" -- but it's their fault anyway....???

A long post to deny guilt, followed by this cowardly bail-out . . .

QUOTE: So frankly, DUers prompted a lot of the criticism that she got from this place, by putting her on a "beyond reproach" pedestal. UNQUOTE

Cindy reached levels of admiration that irritated you -- and those here like you?

Meanwhile, I think if a post is abusive, then Democratic Underground shouldn't run it--

Or, are there no monitors here?

[cynatnite]

236. Well, I was irritated that any criticism of Cindy Sheehan...

was met with a lot of animosity by avid supporters.

[Dastard Stepchild]

245. There has been much vitriol on both sides...

Those that favor Cindy and her tactics as well as those that do not. Not just on DU, but on many blogs and other sites as well. So, no, I don't think that DU alone did it to her, but there were a number of times when I questioned whether all of us remembered that this was a living, breathing person with an internet connection and a pair of functioning eyes that we were talking about.

True, she made herself open to public scrutiny by sheer nature of going public with her story. But I wonder if she was quite prepared for the onslaught of conversation that painted her in BOTH flattering and unflattering ways. I'm not sure if, as your average, run-of-the-mill citizen that suddenly gets it in your head to do something very big and very different, you would be able to adequately prepare for that. To know that when people were talking, they were talking about you, and in very heated ways. It seems a very intense thing to throw oneself into. And again, while going public does introduce this exact scenario into one's life, I would argue that none quite know what it can do to you until you are there.

So, I am not surprised at the turn of events, though I am saddened. She was going to face an uphill battle in this campaign from the start, and that has to be incredibly exhausting. When she made decisions others saw as errors, she made them in public, and faced tremendous repercussions. When I make a decision that others view as an error, I can slink off to the privacy of my den and lick my wounds. That she stuck it out for two years is nothing short of impressive in my book.