Driven to Extremes (re: commute times of 90 min or more)

[MountainLaurel]

AT 7:25, ABOUT 15 MINUTES INTO HIS TWO-HOUR-PLUS WEEKNIGHT COMMUTE, Marc Turner reached for his ringing cellphone. On the other end of the line, the younger of his two daughters, 7-year-old Catherine, had a question.

"I'll be home soon, Cate," he answered. "What?" His daughter wanted a more precise pledge. "Yes, I'm coming home, Cate, but traffic is horrible. I think it's probably going to be longer than two hours. Yes, you can tell Mom that: longer. Two hours, I hope, but I don't know exactly. Are you helping make dinner, Cate? Are you going to help set the table, then, or do something else? Good. Yes, longer than two hours, Cate. Help everybody while you're waiting. Yes, longer, probably." By the third time he answered the question, he wondered whether Cate was doing his wife's bidding. "Yes, you can tell Mom. I'll be home as soon as I can."

Turner, a 43-year-old paralegal, had just left for home from his job in bustling Tysons Corner, about 100 miles northeast from his Charlottesville residence, where he lives with his wife, Julie, and their three children. At 7:28, after crawling on the Beltway for a while, his gray 1999 Saab sedan pulled onto Interstate 66 West. Turner groaned. Traffic crept along at 5 mph. "Doesn't look good," he said. "Could be really long tonight. The fortunate thing is I'm not really tired yet." Tuesday generally presented a much less draining commute for Turner than, say, a Thursday night, when he was usually worn down by the first three days of the workweek -- three round-trip commutes that consumed four to five hours daily.

By Thursday nights, running on fumes, he routinely avoided the evening commute entirely and stayed at a discount hotel near Tysons Corner to rest and recover. He usually had a drink on the concierge's floor, sometimes watched a film in his room, got an early night's sleep and readied himself for a normally busy Friday morning. Two years ago, when he took the job in Tysons Corner, he had secured his wife's blessing for Thursday night stay-overs, assuring her that he would have more to give to her and the children on weekends if he came home on Fridays refreshed. The rest of his workweek, Turner pointed out, offered almost no respite. Even on uneventful commuting nights, he seldom walked through the front door of his house until long after the kids had eaten and fallen asleep. As often as not, Julie was getting ready for bed herself, having only enough time to say hi and ask her husband hurried questions about household matters, such as what he had spent that day so that she could balance their checkbook. And then she was asleep, and he alone again.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/29/AR2007052902244.html?hpid=topnews

Living in DC, I had a lot of coworkers who lived like this. Often, it was a matter of not being able to afford a single-family home within 60 miles of the city. Others needed to live near ailing parents. Sometimes, a couple had jobs in different cities (say, Richmond and DC) and had to split the difference.

[elocs]

1. What you describe is certainly not living, possibly surviving.

People like these, who are not living in poverty and have skills and options, need to look for other and better choices to actually live. Even living near ailing parents, what does that benefit if the family is hurt or destroyed? I am sure the parents would not want that.

[Jonathan50]

2. My wife is commuting over an hour each way these days

There just aren't any decent jobs near where we live.

Or at least none that we have the contacts to get.

[MountainLaurel]

4. I hear you

We moved last year to an area with a pretty stagnant economy, particularly for people with college degrees. I've been working part-time over that period, but almost applied for a position that would require an hour drive every day because (a) I needed the benefits that it would provide and (b) professionally, every day I stay in my current job will make it harder to get hired elsewhere.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

3. I can top that,

I know somebody who commutes every day from a small town in the middle of the desert to Costa Mesa at a distance of almost 130 miles, their moving to Phoenix soon.

[mcscajun]

5. Long commutes are slow killers.

They take a physical toll on you, believe it.

I used to do one of those. Living in a small town in NJ, working in a suburb on Long Island. Logistics meant I had to drive it, no other way to make it work. My Best Time to work: 1 hour 15 minutes. Best time to return home: 2 hours. Best Times. Worst times could be two hours in and three hours back. Worst times were Any holiday weekend, and anytime there was a truck breakdown or accident anywhere on the Cross Bronx Expressway. I was driving through some of the most congested highway traffic the NY/NJ Metro Area has to offer, so the latter circumstance happened quite often. Later, it was a car/train/light rail or car/train/ferry commute from the same small town in NJ to the NY Wall Street area. Two hours in, Two hours back: that's without any equipment breakdowns or delays. Don't even talk to me about bus commutes: The Horror and the Pain. x(

All the music, reading, and puzzles you can accomplish on a long commute don't make up for the wear and tear on You, and the loss of control (for non-drive time).

I make a lot, lot less than I used to, but I'm 15 minutes from my current job on a good day, and a bad day means a half hour drive home. My answer isn't for everybody, especially not for those the article focuses on: family providers. :(

[SoCalDem]

8. I almost drove into a train one morning at 4AM

If the car next to me had not honked his horn, I would have.

I left the house at 3:45 AM and drove 57 miles one way..did it 6 days a week for over 10 years..

Some days I would have to go farther..to relieve at a different store..

I am a night person, so I rarely got more than a couple of hours sleep .. then worked 6-8 hours..drove home just in time for kids coming home from school..making dinner,,doing household chores..homework, and hopefully in bed by midnight..

I "drove while sleeping" most of the time.. I was "awake" but not "aware"..

Thankfully, I never had an accident..but those hours and the commute wrecked my internal clock forever.

[mcscajun]

19. Yikes!

Our internal clocks are delicate and not meant for that kind of abuse. :(

There is a whole lot of Subconscious "autopilot mode" driving going on out there.

[ikojo]

11. I've read about people moving to Pennsylvania

and commuting to NYC! They cannot afford a place near NYC so they buy in PA and take commuter trains into "the city." I'd have to be making bank in order to tolerate that kind of existence. If people have kids and a spouse, how do they maintain a relationship. I remember having a job that required 30 hours a month of mandatory overtime, I had no life. Heck I was so tired from taking the bus to and from work and working that instead of doing laundry I'd simply buy new clothes.

[mcscajun]

18. Yup. Lots of 'em. There was an article (or maybe a series of articles)

in the NY Times last year or the year before (*I'll see if I can find it*) detailing the horrors of that particular "life choice".

It's not living, it's existing. That's No Way To Live.

On edit: It's even older than I thought (2004), but I found this:

"We're pretty much living hand to mouth now," she said. "It was a big letdown for the boys. It's like being told you can have a puppy, petting it, and then never being given it."

As for Ms. Davis, it is difficult to pinpoint, she says, just what sent her over the edge. There was the $3,000 in annual school and property taxes, a $3,600 yearly heating bill, and $500 in homeowners' association dues, which she says she had not expected.

Soon after Christmas of 2000, her husband announced that he would stay in New York. The talked-about train to New York City had never materialized. The traffic tie-ups were endless. "All you talk about is bills, bills, bills," she recalled him saying.

-snip-

Their divorce left Lasscelles alone in the house all week and Ms. Davis wracked with guilt as she stayed in New York weeknights to save the bus fare. She did not dare tell anyone and slept with her cellphone on her pillow. On weekends, she would return home and pack. For months, they lived frozen lives with boxes filling every room. As much as homelessness, Ms. Davis was terrified by the shame of forcible eviction, but she eventually abandoned the Poconos altogether for a rental back in Brooklyn.

http://www.phda.us/NY%20Times/A%20Home%20Too%20Far%20Page%208.htm

It's not everyone's story, but as the article details, there are many stories like it.

[blues90]

6. It is a real problem

Ruin the family just to try to survive .

I have found here in southern calif that if you live to far from a job they take this into consideration and won;t hire you because they feel you will be late and not reliable . I have had a few good job finds but was told direct that I lived to far away .

Add into this the cost of gas and what do you end up with .

I really feel they are doing their best to destroy the american worker for ever .

[shanti]

30. yes

but housing costs have a lot to do with the long commutes. i knew someone who commuted 2 hours each way five days a week from apple valley to downtown l.a. it was the only way they could afford to own a house in so cal.

personally, i could NEVER do that, so i moved to nor cal and i'm very happy with my decision. in fact, i don't drive to work at all. i take light rail to work every day, so my wallet and sanity are intact, and feel luck to be able to do so.

quality of life is a huge consideration, imo.

[Warpy]

7. I knew people on Cape Cod who commuted to Boston every day

and it was bumper to bumper for the first 60 miles around the city. Some of them gave themselves a break and rode a Trailways bus, but most drove.

There were people who commuted from northern RI and southern NH. Why did they do this? It was a case of affording a house that had enough of a yard for the rugrat to play in, and there was usually only one of those. The cost was never seeing the kid except on weekends and spending that weekend too wiped out to do anything but mow the grass and flop down in front of the TV and dread Monday.

(I knew the only home I could afford in eastern Mass. on a nurse's paycheck would be a condo that combined the worst aspects of home ownership with the worst parts of apartment living, so I lit out for NM)

Families are having to pay too high a price trying to go after the American Dream of owning one's own house, a car in the driveway, a healthy child, and (used to be) a secure profession. It's killing most people who try it because of the commuting, the debt, and the stress of always being behind as our purchasing power keeps declining, year after year.

We can't go on like this. The system is near the breaking point and so are we.

[spooky3]

16. for SOME of these families, they have better options

Some of them want to have a bigger house & yard than they really need, and they are not thinking clearly, IMHO, about this trade-off.

(I put SOME in caps because I realize this is not the case for everyone).

There is no question that prices are horrible in places like Boston, NYC, San Francisco, DC, etc., and that this limits people's lifestyles much more than in lower cost places. But...

I grew up in a 1000 square foot house and while it wasn't ideal, most families do not need 2500 square feet and three bathrooms, but many think they do. They can be comfortable somewhere in the middle and not have that type of commute; with the incomes of the couple in the article, they have plenty of options with a somewhat shorter commute in the DC area, including asking employers for telecommuting for part of one or both of those jobs, or having the husband stay home with the kids (since it sounds as if he has the lower-paying job). Of course WaPo chose the most extreme cases for the article, so obviously a lot of people have made different decisions from this couple's. Further, I am not sure why some people did not think about these things when choosing the size of their families. I understand that they may not control this entirely or that jobs change. But in those situations where people KNOW they are living in a high cost area and choose to have several children and pets and have the same jobs for years, I am not as sympathetic about their commuting decisions. I feel sorry for their kids.

[SoCalDem]

25. Here's what's different. A while back, a "small house" was

find-able in areas with okay schools, and pretty normal living circumstances.. These days, "affordable" housing is usually found in very low-income areas..with shitty (dangerous) schools, and are often in terrible parts of town with little or no amenities.

In smaller communities that still have affordable housing in more abundance, there are often no jobs to speak of, and there are brazillions of people out there with college loans out the wazoo from the day they graduate, so they often cannot afford to "move down" to small town living & lower pay.. Higher pay, often goes hand in hand with higher housing..so that almost always means "moving OUT" and driving in..

[spooky3]

27. I agree, but as a DC area resident

(and it isn't as bad here as SF and LA) I can tell you that a lot of McMansions (e.g., 3500 sq ft) (or mini-McMansions, e.g., 2500 sq ft) are being built in the exuburbs (including West Virginia) by people commuting to DC, when for the same price the family can have a nice, large townhouse with a small patio and garden or a 1500 - 1800 square foot single family house that needs a little work in South Arlington (for a McMansion price, they could get a turnkey smaller house), giving them a 20 minute commute to downtown DC. This is not a high crime area and the county provides excellent services and schools, and some areas have metro access. There would be even more choices within a 30 minute commute. But many families would never consider that house or townhouse because it is "too small", isn't new, etc., not because they can't afford it. It's true that home buying in the county is too expensive for people living on one modest income, or two minimum wage incomes, but those same people also can't afford McMansions or mini-McMansions, so that's not the situation I am speaking of. I think the situation you are describing is much more extreme than that faced by the couples in the article.

There are TONS of small to medium sized houses and townhouses (to say nothing of condos, where many people live happily) in the low crime, good schools, close-in suburbs of DC. They're just not going to appeal to people who want lots of space or big yards, because land is extremely costly close-in, and they aren't as chic as some other places to live.

A family where one spouse is an associate prof. at a university medical school and the other is a paralegal could definitely afford to live in a nice area if their jobs were both located there. An associate prof. salary in a med. school alone should be enough for living in a nice area in Charlottesville (I think that's where the couple lived).

(See also the post downthread from the person who is living in the District and expresses similar views about tradeoffs).

[jtrockville]

9. My solution in the DC area: TELECOMMUTE

I've been a full-time telecommuter for 10 years now. I can't imagine "going" to work.

[Jonathan50]

10. Most jobs do not allow for the option of not being physically present.

Nice that you can telecommute, but for most of us that is not an option. The majority of jobs are still "hands on".

[jtrockville]

22. The number of jobs that allow for telecommuting is growing.

In the DC metro area, where the feds are one of the largest (if not THE largest) employer, many jobs are eligible for telecommuting. Here are the latest stats from the 2004 telework survey. Telecommuting has grown steadily from 2001-2004. I imagine it's grown even more significantly since then:

The first telework survey was conducted in April 2001 and the second was conducted again that same year, in November. Since November 2001, the telework survey has been conducted annually. In 2004, the survey was sent to 86 agencies with 82 responding. The telework data collected from these 82 agencies represent more than 1.7 million Federal workers. As a result of the survey, our findings show the number of eligible teleworkers and teleworking employees continues to grow. In 2004, 140,694 employees teleworked, representing a 37% increase from 2003. This growth demonstrates a steady escalation over time as the overall number of teleworkers in the Federal Government has grown since 2001 with 72,844 teleworkers, in 2002 with 90,010 teleworkers, and in 2003 with 102,921 teleworkers. More than half of the agencies reporting in 2004 show an increase over 2003 in the number of teleworkers. Of the agencies responding to the survey, 85 percent have a telework policy in place and over 40 percent of agencies either provide employees with equipment to telework or share in the cost of the equipment.

http://www.telework.gov/documents/tw_rpt05/status-summary.asp

[Jonathan50]

31. If your job entails strictly dealing with information then yes, telecommuting is an option.

I can think of a large number of job descriptions that do entail physical presence.

Construction of any and all types.

Retail.. A large and growing sector, even excluding Mall Wort.

Most service jobs.

Most jobs in the medical field.

And so on and so on...

[jtrockville]

34. In DC, tons of jobs are "information" based.

There simply isn't any reason to drive 3 hours round-trip for access to a phone, computer, and network. It's senseless.

[MountainLaurel]

35. Management resistance is a huge issue

Even when the job can easily be done via telecommuting. Administrators want that face time, and the ability to walk into your office to ask some stupid question that could wait a week, no matter if telecommuting would raise the individual's productivity by 100 percent.

[jtrockville]

36. When I began my telecommute...

my manager asked me how he would be able to assess my performance. So I asked him: How do you do it now? When you walk past my office and see my typing at my computer, do you know if I'm busy working, or busy balancing my checkbook? If you see me on the phone, do you know if I'm busy schmoozing a client, or busy chatting with a buddy?

He was quickly turning pale.

So I reassured him: you'll judge my performance by what I produce, by the client's satisfaction, by feedback from those I work with, just like you do now. :)

[Missy Vixen]

12. My husband just left a telecommuting job

because they also wanted him to travel 70% of the time as well.

He's now back to the oh, 12-hour workdays with at least an hour, if not 90 minutes' commute each way. I wish we could live closer to where he works, but we'd double our mortgage to do so.

Julie

[Endangered Specie]

13. For me that kind of commute would make life barely worth living!

Speaking from very limitied expeirence i would gladly take a job that paid significantly less (like 30,40%+) if it meant my commute time was under 20 minutes, versus taking the much better paying job with 1.5+ hours commute.


We forget that time is money, and every extra hour you spend commuting is over a year of your life spent in a car. Thats almost 2.5 years if its an hour both ways. (This is assuming 40 years of a 50week a year job)

This doesnt count the stress, not seeing your love ones (Id rather be poor and spend more time with family then rich and alone). The cost of GAS as well as maintenance on your car. Hell a 200 mile-a-day drive is 50000 miles a year! (not counting anything else). Assuming your average car lasts 150000 miles thats a new car every three years, not to mention maintanence of oil/engine/service/tires and everything else.

Another numbers tidbit: Your odds of dying in a car accident are one in a million every 300 miles you drive (source = my environmental engr textbook) assuimg this commute for 10 years thats 1:1666 (500,000 miles). If its for 40 years thats 1:416.

If gas was consistently $3 a gallon and you drove a 20mpg car thats $7,500 worth of gas a year, consider that when factoring in salary differences!

Frankily Id rather stay in school for as long as possible living on/near campus and being able to walk to 'work', even if it only pays half of what I could be making in the workforce. Happiness is worth more than all the gold in fort knoxx.

[mcscajun]

20. I don't know about the stats, but I always swore that if I didn't stop

driving 110 miles a day (a good part of it on I-80) that I'd die on I-80. I knew the odds were not in my favor in the long run.

Glad I don't do that anymore.

[Endangered Specie]

24. Did you see this paragraph:

But a 2005 Canadian study contends that real estate savings for long-distance commuters are lost over the long term because of added gas and car repair expenses. Besides, the monetary costs of commuting may be the least of it. A 2004 New England Journal of Medicine study found that nearly one out of every 12 heart attacks is linked to being stuck in traffic, and that you nearly triple your risk of having an attack when you get in a car. Other studies have revealed that commuters have greater rates of worker absenteeism and more incidents of abusive behavior in the workplace, damaging companies' productivity. "Fewer social connections mean that also experience a lowering of stress buffers, and that can lead to more illnesses and problems," says Harvard University researcher Thomas Sander.

You weren't too far off.

[mcscajun]

26. I didn't see it; I was responding to this:

"Another numbers tidbit: Your odds of dying in a car accident are one in a million every 300 miles you drive (source = my environmental engr textbook) assuimg this commute for 10 years thats 1:1666 (500,000 miles). If its for 40 years thats 1:416."

That other risk is pretty horrifying, as well.

In any case, it appears that my instincts were "dead on". I may be living a drastically changed life, but at least I'm living. :)

[lildreamer316]

14. THIS IS MY LIFE.

My husband has a job two hours south; in Charlotte. We live in Jamestown, a suburb of Greensboro. Fortunately, we live close to the highway.
He stays over on Sun.nights because he works Sunday night; Monday day; Tuesday day, Wed is "somewhere else"; Thursday day; and sometimes covers a Friday OR Saturday night.

Thank goodness our child is not in school and late nights are ok for us.

Oh, and we just fixed the car that gets 37 to the gallon also. Had to.

Only the prospect of moving closer next year is helping. Needless to say, alot of stuff just dosen't get done around here sometimes. We do what we can. We are managing to stay on top of bills.

[Clark2008]

28. Not to question your judgment, but are you talking about North Carolina?

The reason I ask is because I live just over the mountains in East Tennessee and housing is NOT that expensive in this area - nor anywhere throughout the South with the exceptions of ritzy neighborhoods and gated communities.

Is Charlotte really so expensive that you couldn't move there or somewhere just a bit closer? I realize that right now might not be a good time because of the housing bust (you might not be able to sell your current house), but that's not always true.

Again, I'm not questioning your judgment, I'm questioning real estate prices in Charlotte. If they're that high, that seems VERY out of range for the rest of the South. And, if it is, do you know why they're so pricey?

[Endangered Specie]

15. K&R a very good read.

[hedgehog]

17. We have to find a way to build the ecxonomy that doesn't involve

everyone in the country moving to 50 miles of the coasts to get a job. There are thousands of small towns and cities drying up because all the jobs are leaving. The housing stock in those areas is good but going for peanuts.

[Godhumor]

21. My commute is 90 minutes each way right now

I live in Rochester, NY and I work in Syracuse, NY--It comes out to about 98 miles each direction.

When I got hired last year I knew I would only be doing this for a single school year, and, thankfully, I am now 3 weeks away from never having to make this commute again. I have no idea how my father has mad ea 70 minute commute to his job every day for the past 8 years.

[northzax]

23. which is why I pay a premium

to be able to walk to work (in DC) or take the bus if I am feeling lazy. sure, moving to the burbs I could buy a condo, instead of rent, but I have no desire to spend an hour on a crowded train or bus every morning (god forbid having to drive) now I saunter down the hill, stop in for coffee, and get to work in 20 minutes, with the only cost in shoe leather.

[shanti]

29. welcome to southern california!!

:eyes: 90+ minute commutes are commonplace there and have been for quite some time.

[MetaTrope]

32. From the north side of Chicago, about 8 miles, now takes nearly 90 mins by El train

Used to be under half an hour. The state of public transit here is pathetic...service was better in Malaysia.

[hogwyld]

33. People just need to rethink priorities

I used to live in Silicon Valley, with an hour commute. With 2 small ones, we just decided that 2 working parents plus my commute were a hindrance to a high quality of life. So my wife quit her job, I took a 35k per year pay cut, and we moved to Oregon for a 15 minute commute, a nicer house, and our kids will always have Mom at home.

[pitohui]

37. rich people need to get their head out of their rear end

for a great many "real" people taking a $35K pay cut would mean paying the boss to have the job

are you for real?

i'm so not interested in filthy rich people giving advice to the rest of us, you have no clue what real jobs to pay to people not born of the elite class who don't have the connections

a 35K pay cut -- more than most people's entire after tax income around here!

move to oregon indeed! this wasn't a post, it was an ugly boast

[Matsubara]

38. Maybe so, but it is good to look at options other than long commutes.

I'm not rich - make only about $30K per year, and we have two kids. When we lived in Miami, I originally had a roomy apartment in the suburbs, but we took a smaller one in the city center (Brickell) so I could go to work on my bicycle. But within a few short years, the working-class neighborhood we lived in started getting bulldozed to build luxury highrises, and eventually our duplex was razed too, so we moved to SF, since we all had wanted to move back to California anyway, it seemed like a good time. We struggled to pay the $1300 rent for a tiny 2BR basement hovel in SF, but at least I didn't have to commute - I telecommuted. Then we realized we could move back to my wife's native Japan and have a bigger apartment for half the price we paid in SF, and great universal healthcare, too. Her dad needed our care, too, so we came back last year. The moves were tough on us financially, but my point is that it's good to be flexible and look into every possible option, and it is also a good thing to not be too attached to the American notion that in order to properly raise kids, you must house them in some single-family home in the 'burbs. That is not necessarily the best upbringing, especially if the parents are never there.

And although the poster may be well-off, there's nothing there to suggest "filthy rich". Technology has made a lot of jobs and workers more mobile today - telecommuting is a great option. The downside is, the same technology often allows workers in Bangalore to do those jobs for a fraction of the pay. :(