How do you define working class?

[ikojo]

I have a friend who has a PhD. His wife is a social worker. They live in a neighborhood populated primarily by university professors and teachers. He took insult when I said I did not consider him working class. He owns his home outright (no mortgage, paid cash for his car and inherited some money from his parents..not a whole lot but more than I make in four years of working).

His definition of working class is anyone who depends upon a paycheck to make it day to day. Using his definition a doctor and a lawyer would be working class.

I consider someone with a PhD and a social work degree to be professionals. Teachers, doctors and lawyers are also professionals. They, IMHO, are not working class.

What thinketh the folks in GD?

[ret5hd]

1. Some would say "working class" is as much a state of mind as of money...

The english say it takes 3 generations to make a gentleman.

I'd say he's probably middle class.

[Matsubara]

76. There is no such thing as a gentleman.

The English have a lot of crap ideas, starting with the "House of Lords" :eyes:

There are decent people with compassion, and there are cruel people.

The trappings and manners of "breeding" are irrelevant to a person's worth, IMO.

[ret5hd]

85. Yeah, I agree.

[Kansas Wyatt]

Is he paid by the hour?

Working class people are paid by the hour for labor worked.

[Berry Cool]

14. See, there's another way to look at it.

I consider myself working class, even though I have a white-collar job and am salaried. I don't get paid by the hour, but I certainly couldn't afford not to work. Therefore, I consider myself working class.

[hfojvt]

44. sometimes it seems to me that salaried people

are on the low end of the totem pole. If they are working 60-70 hour weeks and their salary is not that good (or even if it is - what good is lots of money if you never have time to spend it or enjoy what you bought with it?).

I would say working class depends on income and status more than type of job. White collar people in entry-level customer service have white collar jobs, but do not have the income or status to be considered non working class.

A factory worker at Ford or MMM may not have alot of status, like a doctor or professor, but they can have very high incomes which move them out of the working class IMO. It is gonna be a fuzzy dividing line, but I would say generally that a household income that is more than one standard deviation above the median income for your county moves you out of the working class.

[Mojambo]

2. Anyone who needs to cash their check the day they receive it. n/t

[Berry Cool]

22. Well, I don't need to cash mine the day I get it

but I wouldn't use it to prop up a shaky leg on a table, either.

I would define people who live paycheck to paycheck as "the working poor." That's different from being "working class." "Working class" has a broader definition to my mind. Even if you extend it only to people having jobs that traditionally have not required a college education (and that status keeps shifting all the time).

[Mojambo]

26. Yeah, you're right.

It would fit the definition of working poor much better.

Although thanks to the Bush crowd the line between the working poor and the working class is pretty blurry these days.

[NMDemDist2]

3. working class folk have to take their shower *AFTER* work

your friends are professionals IMO

[Berry Cool]

16. So, you define working class by "physical labor," as in

"If you get dirty or sweaty at your job, that's working class."

I think that's sort of a narrow way to define it.

[NMDemDist2]

40. broadly yes. folks who work in offices are usually middle or professional

class.

not always true, but as a general rule pretty close

[Matsubara]

78. I haven't seen that to be the case.

A lot of people in cubicles make crap money, at least in the offices I've worked in...

[Matsubara]

77. You could say that, but electricians & plumbers make better money than most white-collars...

I think we need to redefine some outdated ideas. A lot of white-collar jobs today are little more than serf jobs

[napi21]

4. What's the opposite of working class?

If it's independantly wealthy, then your friend is right.

[Double T]

5. If you have to work everyday to earn a paycheck to survive,..........

that's working class. Most of 'US' are working class, including most lawyers, doctors, teachers and professors.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. I See Some People Say This Yet For The Life Of Me Can't Find A Single Reputable Source That Defines

it in such ways overall.

Working class is an actual term with actual context. It isn't just two words put together that a reader interprets for themselves. I feel like definitions like yours above are guilty of doing the latter rather than actually understanding what working class actually is.

[Double T]

28. Well excuse me!...............

How's this definition work for you?

Working Class-The group of people generally identified in Marxist theory as the proletariat. Although they are in a struggle for power with the bourgeoisie, the members of the working class must, nonetheless, sell their labor to the bourgeoisie to produce the material needs for their society.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. We're Talking About American Definitions Here.

Elsewhere it can mean several things. But when using it in terms of american class it generally means hourly laborers or low skilled workers. Not just simply anyone who has a job. Sorry.

[ikojo]

35. My friend does not accept this definition...he kept on

going back to the 19th century definition of working class. He said it meant one who does not own the means of production.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Well There's Theoretics And There's Actual Classes.

Theoretically him and the poster above can be correct depending on interpretations. But when dealing with what is ACTUALLY considered the working class in america, it is more then generally accepted that it is those who are blue collar, not white collar. Your friend is white collar, and is more middle class. If the theoretical definition were to be used then just about anyone and everyone who is middle class would basically be working class. But working class is generally those who actually do manual labor or make low hourly wages etc.

Of course some can argue this till their blue in the face. But I'm just stating what the generally accepted american version of working class is.

[Matsubara]

79. A lot of white collar jobs are hourly and low-paid.

And a lot of blue-collar jobs are very highly-paid.

Those are stereotypes. Yeah, a lot of Americans believe in them, but that doesn't make them true.

As a group, Americans are some of the most ignorant people on the face of the earth.

[Double T]

42. American definition?

The working class is that vast portion of the global population that derives all or most of its income from SELLING ITS OWN LABOR. Pretty straight forward definition used for over 150 years from the time of David Ricardo, Bakunin, Karl Marx, Kautsky, Debs, etc. I guess some will pick a definition to suit their needs or perceived position.

[hfojvt]

45. a definition that makes Michael Jordan and Katie Couric and I

all 'working class' is not a useful definition. Once you start getting $40 an hour or more for your labor, you are no longer working class. You've got your own little piece of the surplus. You are not in the same class as a guy making $7.15 an hour.

Also by that definition, a farmer was not working class, neither is a small business owner who makes, say $15,000 a year (except I never made that much in my businesses).

It might have been Marx's or Debs definition, but this is America and it's the 21st century.

[Solo_in_MD]

57. Poorly, but its from Marx, so what else should we expect

[Double T]

66. Perhaps 'WE' shouldn't be so concerned about defining classes.......

of people, workers, etc.

[Solo_in_MD]

67. I.m not, you might want t take that up with the OP

The post industrial age work force has so blurred things that I do not think terms like working class are meaningfull anymore

[Double T]

68. Agreed. Great response. Thanks.

[gollygee]

70. Middle class people live paycheck to paycheck too

Trust me - I'm there.

Working class people are paid by the hour and punch a time card. They have, unfortunately, hit very hard times - harder than we middle class people have. At least here in Michigan. There aren't very many factories anymore and there are tons of people who used to work at them.

[Rex]

6. Sounds upper middle class, not working class.

To me, the 'working class' today is paycheck to paycheck survival.

[ikojo]

18. I agree with you, Rex,...during our discussion

tonight I brought up a friend who has a trust fund. She CHOOSES to work, not because she must, but because she wants to do so. She does not need her check to pay bills, they are paid out of her trust fund.

Believe it or not my PhD friend said my trust fund friend is working class as long as she has a job over which she has no control of the "means of production."

I told him I did not consider her to be working class because she does not NEED her paycheck to survive. It's nice when she gets a check because then she doesn't need to dip into her trust fund as much, but she will not lose her house if she does not have a job. She primarily gets by on her investments.

What surprises me is that my PhD friend would consider anyone who has investments to the degree as my trust fund friend, would consider her working class. I thought those who read Marx opposed people living off investments as making it off the backs of workers.

I need my paycheck. I have no family money. I do not own property. By income I probably make a lower middle class income.

I think anyone who does not have the ability to give another employee a review, a raise, does not interview anyone for a job or hire or fire is working class.

[Rex]

25. Same here, my livelihood depends on a paycheck every two weeks.

I NEED that money in order to survive, I don't have a job I just can WANT to have and quit if I don't like it. I have a few friends with masters and doctorals that would agree with your friend.

[Berry Cool]

27. I think if you can choose to work or not work, you are not working class.

If you can choose to work for someone else or live off Daddy's trust fund, but you choose to work, you are not working class, simply because you have the choice.

It doesn't matter whether or not you control your employer's "means of production." You have the choice of where to source your income...your own work or that of someone else. THAT is what makes the difference. You can, at any time, tell your employer to piss up a rope.

And I consider management to be working class--so long as the manager in question has to work, rather than chooses to work.

Edited to add: If you can live off your investments--or someone else's--then you are also not working class.

[hfojvt]

47. lower middle is household income of $18,500 - $34,738

depending on what city you live in. It's higher, like expenses, in major metro areas, but I am not sure there is a breakdown of those stats, but 40% of American households make less than $34,738.

[hfojvt]

46. except that I make $10,000 a year

and could easily survive six weeks without a paycheck. Heck, I have $30,000 in my IRA, $35,000 in home equity and another piece of land worth $10,000. If all that was liquidated, I could go for at least 5 years. If only the home and IRA were liquidated, I could live on the land indefinitely. It would not be much of a life, but I have done it before.

But a $10,000 a year janitor is not working class to you, just because he has saved up a little bit of money?

[Berry Cool]

53. I think you'd still technically be part of the leisure class if you didn't work.

On the low end of it maybe, but technically, yes.

[hfojvt]

64. then technically the homeless are in the leisure class too

since they typically scavenge, beg or steal instead of work.

I think the definition needs to be income based, rather than sourced based. A retired member of the working class with a measly pension and meager savings suddenly joins the leisure class, while Jay Leno, who supposedly works for his humongous paycheck is a member of the working class. Hey Jay, unite with the part-time janitors, you have nothing to lose but your chains!!

[Rex]

58. I've saved money up in a savings and needed it

to help me go from one job to another. I would absolutely say you are a working class person that invests money and has some saved up. You say you could go for 5 years living on that and not making any revenue, good for you. That sounds like a wise way to spend your money.

What happens after those 5 years? What do you leave to your kids (if you have any_? What holdings do you have? Do you own land or something that provides continuous revenue? Mineral or oil holdings?

There is far more involved than investing money; can you live off it and reinvest to reach an equilibrium in profit/loss? If so then I applaud you.

The definition is not based on circumstance, but brackets of income and how they help in your 'liberty' day to day.

[hfojvt]

62. I did not say it was wise or sustainable

but it is a fair ways from 'living paycheck to paycheck'. I have never done that, even when I made nothing. I do not know how people can stand it. It would freak me out. So instead I built up a cushion from jobs making $6100 and $8100 a year back in 1988-1991.

[Rex]

63. More people live paycheck to paycheck today. They don't invest

money and take loans from their employers to pay for 'things'. Your situation, I would bet, is far from average for that income level. Maybe not wise or sustainable, but I think you saved up money and that is a good thing IMO. Nothing more.

[lectrobyte]

7. "working class" to me means roughly the same as "blue collar". PhD's

are "white collar" in my mind.

[Berry Cool]

8. Technically, anyone who earns a paycheck on which his or her living expenses depend

is a member of the "working class." I.e., you're not living off inherited wealth, and you're not impoverished and living only with government assistance.

However, some people think of the "working class" more narrowly--as being made up of blue-collar and pink-collar workers--and classify anyone with a professional or white-collar job as not being "working class."

Sounds like that's the difference of opinion between your friend and you. He thinks he is working class because he doesn't live off his family's wealth. You think he isn't because he teaches and his wife works in an office--they don't work in a factory, dig ditches, whatever.

[ikojo]

23. Well, his wife doesn't work in an office

She works for a school district.

I do tend to classify those with advanced degrees such as an MSW, PhD, MD and JD (lawyer) as professionals rather than working class.

He said my definition of working class was bourgeois in nature.

[Berry Cool]

30. Does she have no office or room she works out of

as opposed to the classroom?

Here, I'm making the distinction between people who "have their own place" at work, be it an office, cubicle, what have you, vs. those who have none, or maybe have a locker or whatever. (And I know even that distinction is falling, with some people being assigned to a new desk or cubicle each day.)

And I agree with your definition of "professionals" because those advanced degrees are requirements for entry into those jobs--as in, you'll never become a full professor without a PhD, a social worker without an MSW, a doctor without an MD, a lawyer without a JD. But not everyone with a white-collar job is that kind of a "professional."

[ikojo]

33. She trains teachers on how to work with

emotionally disturbed kids (or whatever the politically correct term is these days).

[elocs]

9. We should all be so "working class". n/t

[Raine]

10. Anyone who

collects a paycheck.

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. by their tastes

[JeffR]

15. Wow! By my count, that's at least a triple-edged comment

Well played. Well played.
:toast:

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. Thanks!

For laborers, I think "Blue Collar" and "White Collar".

"Working Class" to me is a term about lifestyle, not one's job. Sadly, it's also a derogatory term, at least I would use it.

[JeffR]

24. Yeah

The great irony of the current version of feudalism is that so many who are actually serfs have been conned into thinking they're masters.

[JeffR]

12. If he identifies with working people making much less, I say we let him in

His definition of paycheck-dependant may be very different from mine, from the sound of it. But he obviously feels his work justifies his money. While that may or may not be so - I don't know the guy, after all - he feels the way he feels. I used to make a lot more money than I do now. But it took more out of me than was worth enduring, in retrospect. You can love your work, and it can still kill you.

[lonestarnot]

13. Anyone who has to suck ass to keep a job so they can live is working class

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. Though It's A Bit Open To Interpretation, In America The Most Accepted And Popular One Would Be

those on hourly wages usually associated with physical labor as well as low skill jobs.

Under the accepted American version of working class, your friend has no real leg to stand on.

[mike_c]

20. I might have an unusual perspective on that one....

I grew up decidedly blue collar. Dropped out of high school at 16. Worked all kinds of skilled and unskilled craft jobs until my mid-thirties. My brothers are respectively, a house painter, a carpet installer, and a diesel mechanic. I worked mostly in the printing and graphic arts trades, but I also did various construction jobs, truck driving, lumber yard work, etc.

Sometime along the way I got my GED, went to junior college at night, and then finished my BS at a university in my mid-thirties. ALL on borrowed money. Went to grad school. Now I have my Ph.D. and I'm a university prof, an academic scientist, and a professional by any definition.

I still live from one paycheck to the next, month to month. I am thirty days from homelessness. I owe so much money for the student loans that got me here-- and let's be clear, I LOVE my work-- that I will never be able to buy a home of my own. I'll never even be able to pay off the student loans-- I have almost 25 years left to pay, and I'll retire in 12 years, LOL.

My average work day is about 10 hours or so, and I rarely get to take weekends off.

I live in a tiny, rented house in a small town. I buy a car every 10 years or so, driving them into the ground, just like my neighbors who work as carpenters and loggers, respectively. I have insurance, but still cannot afford some serious medical expenses, so I just let them slide and hope for the best.

I'm a professional. I am also as working class as anyone I've ever known. Always have been, always will be.

[ikojo]

31. Congratulations on your success!

I have a friend in a situation similar to yours. She is getting her PhD and will be massively in debt upon completion of her studies. She is happy, however.

It is complicated. You definitely are working class, IMHO, but have managed to work your way up into the professional class. Did you know there are e mail lists for academics from a working class background?

[mike_c]

41. no, but I'd be REALLY interested in making those contacts....

Thanks, because first and foremost I AM just about as successful as anyone could want to be. Someone mentioned up thread that anyone who sucks ass to survive is working class and that is PRECISELY why I returned to school-- I HATED sucking ass. I hated knowing that the only thing of value that I had to sell was my TIME, my LIFE, in eight hour pieces.

I've told my story on DU before-- I started by reading fifth grade arithmetic books on my lunch hours and weekends when I was in my mid-twenties.

I still sell my time I suppose, but I get a lot more satisfaction for it, and I can make ends meet, more or less.

[Berry Cool]

36. Now THAT is a good example of what I mean.

Even an academic can find it hard to make ends meet. If you have a PhD and you are still living paycheck to paycheck, I think you qualify as working poor, not just working class.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

43. WOW! You are an inspiration! You are working class with lots of extra Class!

:hi: and modest too! :pals:

[BlooInBloo]

32. I don't. Supposedly rigid definitions are the provenance of rigid minds.

[haele]

34. Working Class are the "proletariat", comrade!

Working class is defined as those who trade their unskilled or semi-skilled labor for survival wages.
Marx defines working class as property-less factory workers or laborers. Farm workers can be working class, though the farmer who "owns" the farm himself is not.

Skilled or graduate degree labor that can own or inherit property has always been considered professional - part of the bourgeois. Your friend is not working class.
I'm not working class either - I'm skilled (electrical engineering by way of the OJT) and management, even though I was at one time considered working class.

Haele

[Berry Cool]

55. Wow. I'm part of the bourgeoisie.

My mother would never believe it.

"Congratulations. Now get your bourgeois butt out of bed and get to work" would probably be her reaction to finding that out.

[NOLALady]

37. Anyone who lives paycheck to paycheck

and who are one serious illness (the bread winner or a family member) from homelessness, I would consider working class. Your friend thinks of himself as the professional working class I guess.

[ikojo]

39. No, he simply thinks of himself as

working class because he did not own the means of production at work. Not that he worked in a factory mind you. He worked in an office and had one direct report (someone who reported to him).

[hfojvt]

50. anyone can live paycheck to paycheck

if they decide to live large
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/24

Welcome to DU :hi:

[ComerPerro]

48. well, yeah, problem with that definition is that it can include people making $200k or more a year

[JVS]

54. A rule of thumb is to ask: would you rather be unable to invest or unable to work

The person who is working class would give up savings in that situation because that's not what he or she is dependent on.

The person who is in the bourgeoisie would give up the seemingly lavish paycheck from the company because his or her true source of support is the property and investments already held.

[ComerPerro]

56. well, maybe not in some cases. But its hard to come up with a uniform definition

without getting into salary range, and even then its up for debate

[Jed Dilligan]

49. Socioculturally, or economically?

Economically, your friend is right. Anyone who depends on a paycheck rather than owning the means of production is a "worker."

Socioculturally, you are right. Working class refers to the "blue collar" tradition that exists in certain occupations, manufacturing and extractive industries in particular. I generally think of the traditional blue-collar groups as being a cut above the "underclass" of low-paid service workers who have taken their place at the bottom of the pecking order in our society.

[JVS]

51. Can he set up business on his own? Teachers generally cannot these days, lawyers and doctors can...

for now. People in that class are being assimilated into the working class unless they are able to leverage their relatively large incomes to put themselves into the class of people that make money from having money.

[TahitiNut]

52. Anyone who lives off their OWN labors instead of the labors of others.

Simple. :shrug:

[24HRrnr]

59. Thank you

An interesting topic, lots of reasoned debate (mostly).

Appreciate it.

[Selatius]

60. Easy: Somebody who primarily relies on hourly wages instead of residual income

Residual income would be things such as investments in the stock market; bonds; inherited wealth; rent income derived from things such as land, buildings, equipment, and mineral rights that one may own; and other things of that sort. The people at the top of the wealth pyramid live on residual income.

Hourly wages would be what you get when you sell your labor directly to customers or to somebody else, usually your boss/business owner, in a free market. A doctor or a lawyer has more in common with a steelworker or a farmhand than with somebody such as George Soros or Warren Buffett. Both steelworkers and doctors sell their labor to others.

One sells directly to customers, the other, directly to employers who own the means of production. The difference in wages can be simply explained by the law of supply and demand, mostly but not entirely. There are very few lawyers and doctors in comparison to the numbers of steel and factory workers historically.

[gravity]

61. There isn't a clear cut definition for working class

But if you have a professional degree and teach at a university, you aren't it.

It's not just your paycheck that matters, but also your job prestige and influence at your workplace and in society.

[Cleita]

65. They are working class if they don't have another source

of income, like an inheritance trust, that supports them. A lot of people think that having a nice salary as a professional doesn't put you in the same class as the guy delivering beer. However, the guy delivering beer, who might belong to a union, might make more money than the phd.

Working class is anyone who must work at a job and put in his/her forty+ hours a week and who might find his or herself in trouble if out of work. The rich, on the other hand have property of various types that gives them sources of income that will support them even if unemployed.

[hedgehog]

69. One of you is talking about economic class, and the other is talking about social class.

I can accept working class as someone who needs a pay check, but as someone noted above, does Katie Couric "need" her pay check? No doubt she needs it to support her life style, but a lot of us would retire if we had her money.

Working class as a social class is a term in flux. Years ago, working class people were union workers living in the city. Today, working class people might live in the city, country or suburb. A working class person might hold an associate or bachelor degree these days. I think you have to look at factors such as entertainment choices, food choices, clothing choices etc.

My husband is a mechanical engineer making good money. With all due modesty, I'd say he's one of the top people in his field. Around home, he works on cars and fixes up the house and barn while wearing the jeans he bought at the Salvation Army. (The jeans are only a little big, and he doesn't worry about getting them dirty.)He studies enough architecture to restore our house's Italianate lines, but he enjoys country music. When he travels to Europe on work, he eats the local foods and tours the cities on foot. So is he working class or what?

[geniph]

71. I define it by what will happen if you lose your job

Both my husband and I came from very working-class backgrounds. When my husband's father wasn't working, the family either went hungry or went to food banks. My mother never dared make waves at any of her jobs and did whatever she was required to do, because we also would have gone hungry and become homeless had she lost her job.

For more middle-class folks, yes, they might lose their house - note, THEIR house, not a rental - but they probably won't become homeless; they have assets to sell or family to fall back on or have earned unemployment benefits.

If you literally have nothing other than that paycheck, you're working class. If you have any tangible assets such as home equity, or family with money, you're not. Working class means your choices are to work, to starve in the cold, or to beg/steal. If you can move back in with your parents, you're not. If your parents are near-homeless themselves and no one in your family has ever owned a home, you're working class.

I don't think most middle class folks really understand what it means to be that close to the edge; so close that a kid who breaks his glasses or loses his winter coat can be enough to tip you over the edge. I don't think most of them have ever been that kid afraid to admit she's outgrown her shoes, knowing that means there won't be any money for food next week. I don't think most of them have ever had to desperately make the choice between taking a sick child to the emergency room or paying the electric bill.

[Matsubara]

72. Personally I define it as the class which cannot save.

After food, rent on an apartment or mortgage on a basic starter home, utilities and other expenses, there is nothing lest to set aside, and usually no pension plan. Not poor enough to get benefits, but struggling nonetheless. One catastrophic illness away from the street.

I don't think your friend is really working class or has any comprehension of what it's like to be working class.

He sounds firmly ensconced in the middle class. Nothing wrong with that, but he's still middle class.


These definitions are always going to be subjective and debateable. I hear people say that families with $100K incomes are "middle class". Never mind that they fall in the top 20% of income earners. People who make over $200K are in the top 5%, but some of them even have the nerve to call themselves "middle class".

To me, a person must have income and assets more or less in line with those of the majority of Americans to be middle class...

[LWolf]

73. Working class? It depends on several factors:

Social class
Ed level
Amount earned
Amount worked
Generation discussed

And probably more.

For my parent's generation, I think "working class" referred to blue-collar workers. My absent, rarely met father was a truck driver. My mom was a secretary. My father's education stopped at 8th grade and my mom graduated from high school. She re-entered a community college to earn an AA when I graduated from high school.

Me? I'm a teacher. You'd call me a professional, I still consider myself working class. First of all, I don't make much money. After 15 years, I make less than my son does, and he didn't go beyond his AA in college. He's working class, too; dependent on the company that employs him, rents his living space.

Secondly, I still think like someone who has experienced paychecks stretched to the regular peanut butter, soup, and macaroni diet; someone who has been homeless, has dealt with how to get to work when the car is broken and there is no money to fix it, someone who has lived week to week on a paycheck, barely scraping by.

There is an interesting book out there for people like me: "Blue Collar, White Limbo." It explores the unusual situation we find ourselves, not fitting in with our blue-collar beginnings or our white collar present.

These days, you can be a college graduate and be "working class." Many college grads can't find employment in their field of study and take low-paid, lower skill jobs. Or they take them as second jobs, since the jobs they get don't pay well, especially with the mammoth burden of student loans to bear.

In my profession, if you really want to be "middle class," you have to be married and have 2 incomes. If you are single, and have no assets outside your income, you probably make less money than your plumber, electrician, or mechanic. I suspect this is true for other "professions" as well.

Skilled trades? They require some level of training, and make decent money. Are they still working class?

I don't really think there is a clear cut answer.

[Odin2005]

74. dupe

[Odin2005]

75. The distinction between "middle" and "working" class is somewhat muddled nowdays.

Originally (in the US at least, the term has a different meaning in Europe) "middle class" referred to professionals, small business owners, mid-level managers, etc. and "working class" referred to the Average Joe working in a factory or a mine or a store. After WW2 the two terms started to lose thier distinctiveness because of working class folks deluding themselves that they were "middle class." Thus the people who were originally the "middle class" have become the "upper middle class" as a result of every guy and his/her dog wanting to call themselves "middle class".

Your friend is Middle Class in the traditional sense.

[conspirator]

80. My definition is WHO pays you. Working class is when you are being payed by

someone else other than the final user of your service/product.
Basically if you are self employed then you are not working class, even if your income is low.
White collar middle class workers are working class.
The only exception to this rule is if you are a highly payed employee, like an executive or a specialist. In that case, although you are not your own boss, you could afford to quit the job at anytime and start your own business.

[cory817]

81. it's hard because

I know a lot of plumbers and electricians which by most are considered "working class" but they make way more than many "white collar" jobs. You probably have to separate the job someone does from the amount of money they make, and someone like a professor is more of an underpaid professional. The upper-middle lower middle etc classification works much easier.

The other thing is because we shifted away from manufacturing in this country there are less of the traditional factory worker punch a time-clock working class, and you might have to start including the jobs that replaced them like general office work etc.

And if you're going to classify people who aren't working class as those who control means, then that is such a small group comparatively that there almost isn't a point.

And then there's the problem of people wanting to be considered working class when they're really not, it's kind of a "I walked ten miles in the snow uphill both ways".

I think if you're going to classify people, you either need to not assume all working class have it hard and professional white collars don't, or just classify people by their income (lower-middle upper middle etc.) Better yet let's not classify people.

[MindPilot]

82. Anyone who sells their labor...up to a point

It's really gray; a rock star or a famous actor certainly sells their labor, but I don't think anyone one would consider Bruce Springsteen working class. At least not any more.

If all my savings and the equity in my house were totaled up, I'm very close to being a millionaire. But--even with a degree and a white-collar job--I'm without a doubt working class; blue-collar to the bone. Maybe it's more about who you are than what you make...or how you make it.

[ecstatic]

83. Yearly income and type of work/education required to do that work and the options available

Yearly Income: I would classify a working class person as someone earning 20K to 30K per year as a janitor or blue collar or fast food worker (or something that doesn't require a college degree or special training). In my opinion, a working class person doesn't have many options and may not have the ability to move to a higher economic class.

I would classify a college professor or highly educated person making 20k to 30K as someone who freely chooses to make less. While their income might match a working class person, they have the choice to be upwardly mobile if they choose.

[BootinUp]

84. Working class

no degree, learned their trade the hard way, busts their butt everyday just to be able to borrow money to buy a house or they rent.

jmho.