"I think the Lord's Prayer is a powerful prayer."

[Telly Savalas]

You can read more about Dennis Kucinich's thoughts on religion in the following interview with him:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/139/story_13914_1.html

[jwirr]

1. It is a prayer that never uses a personal pronoun. You cannot

pray it without praying for others. That is one of the things I like about it.

[TahitiNut]

18. It's also not a Christmas letter to Santa Claus.

I personally eschew any notion of 'prayer' that's a list of "gimme's." It's the very denial of faith, imho, in an omnipotent, trascendant Conciousness. It seems to me that prayer is about gratitude and an expression of faith. I find that meditation, in gratitude, is very empowering.

[jwirr]

25. There is a lot in the Lord's Prayer that does not involve "give me".

It for the most part has three main give mes: Forgive us, protect us from evil (I always think *ss here) and provide for us. The rest acknowledges God. This prayer can take the place of all those give me lists in one simple prayer and it does it in such a way that even then the prayer cannot be selfish. The only time that I felt a need for a give me other than this prayer was when my disabled daughter was in need of some special medical care or I needed strength to continue the fight to save her life.

When people ask why the Democratic Party should acknowledge the religion of a candidate I always want to answer because there are a lot of Christians who are Democrats. Here in Minnesota (at least my part) most of the churches are filled with Democrats. Even the fundie churches up here have a very vocal Democrat membership. I want these people to continue in the party. I also remind you that many of these people must have voted for Keith Ellison or he would not have won. If a candidate has a religion then they should not be afraid to acknowledge it - that is true freedom of religion.

[lonestarnot]

48. Hey no personal pronouns. You are right. Never realized that before.

[Iris]

49. Yes. It has personal pronouns. Just no singular possessive pronouns.

Ordinary English has seven personal pronouns:

* first-person singular (I)
* first-person plural (we)
* second-person (you)
* third-person singular masculine (he)
* third-person singular feminine (she)
* third-person singular neuter (it)
* third-person plural (they)

[lonestarnot]

50. What? You've got the wrong prayer lined up there person.

[nonconformist]

51. Not a single one of those is present in The Lord's Prayer. nt

[NuttyFluffers]

55. "as WE forgive those that trespass against us"

i think the poster is thinking of singular personal pronouns, because 'we,' 'us,' and 'our' are all present in the prayer. in fact, the prayer's title and beginning starts with a plural possessive personal pronoun "OUR father."

for reference, a traditional catholic version:

Our Father, Who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name;
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

if you have another version, please share! :D

[nonconformist]

57. Touche! "We" slipped my mind.

That is the version I know also. :)

[Iris]

56. how about "we"? n/t

[DesertRat]

2. He also mentioned the prayer of St. Francis

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. As sung by Sarah McLachlan

...set to "Buffy the Vampire Slayer": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgT9mm81etc

[Rydz777]

3. Simone Weil

the French-Jewish secular saint used to recite it in the original Greek and whenever making a mistake would start over again. She wrote a wonderful essay on its meaning. After a life of social activism, she had a religious experience in a Christian church and the Lord's Prayer became very important to her.

[DavidDvorkin]

4. I think that politicians who issue such statements are turds

And the country would be far better off without them.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. So? That's a personal view. Like "I think Finnegans Wake is the best book ever written"

As long as it doesn't impact public policy or other people's freedoms, why should I give a fuck?

[Bluebear]

6. Fine! Just keep your Jesus off my penis and we'll be great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exDo2SMdB-0&search=jesus+off+my+penis

[Warren DeMontague]

7. Thank you for that.

That made my night. :rofl:

[Behind the Aegis]

13. LMAO!!!

:rofl:

[DemExpat]

27. Most enjoyable, this, thanks!

Great stuff! :rofl:

DemEx

[DemExpat]

28. edit - dupe post.

DemEx

[durrrty libby]

32. That guy is brilliant. Every candidate should watch and learn

[Nunyabiz]

8. I think its sad that in the 21st century

such pre-dark ages beliefs are even tolerated.
Its also sad that candidates basically must prove they are delusional as a requirement to run and then we wonder why things are so phucked up?

[spoony]

9. What would you like to do? Imprison him?

And what does it being "pre-dark ages" have anything to do with it? Democracy is a "pre-dark ages" belief too.

[Nunyabiz]

11. I'd like to tell him to shut up about silly crap

and stick to the real issues.
While some ideas are the same today, in general we are a bit less crazy and a lot more informed than a couple thousand years ago.
Most of us understand that Earthquakes are caused by movements in tectonic plates, and what causes Rain, Thunder, Lightning, volcanic eruptions and so on have nothing to do with whatever mythical sun god.

[spoony]

12. If you really think humans

are that different than a few thousand years ago, then you haven't done a percent of the vast studying you claim to have done. People are still the same, we just stand on a bigger hill of technology. They weren't stupid back then, when the philosophers and early scientists struggled with available knowledge just like ones today do.

And thankfully neither our candidates nor anyone else has to follow your demands that they shut up. I guess you'll just have to...tolerate it.

[jwirr]

26. What does your last sentence have to do with being Christian?

Maybe there are some fundie idiots that are that ignorant but I don't think it is a good description of most churches and their followers. I went to a church college and I also know about those things.

[MindPilot]

31. I'll be happy to translate for you...

"I guess you'll just have to tolerate it." Means "all you non-Christians--especially you Atheists--just sit down, shut up and take it because you're not our kind. We're Christian, we believe and than makes us better than anyone else.

[jwirr]

34. I did not say anything of the kind. Are you mixing me up with someone else?

[MindPilot]

37. Sorry I wasn't clear...

You questioned the line "...you'll just have to tolerate it."

I "translated" that line with my usual heaping ladle of hyperbole. Unfortunately we don't have an icon for hyperbole.

[durrrty libby]

35. So you believe in fairy-tales. Woop dee do

That does not make you better. It makes you superstitious and foolish

[MindPilot]

38. Not me, most definitely not me.

I'm on your side...about as reality-based as a person can get.

I was paraphrasing what someone else said.

[durrrty libby]

41. Ok missed the paraphrase. These people make me see sideways

[QC]

39. It's not a prison!

It's a re-education facility!

[Telly Savalas]

14. If you feel this way, why do you have a Kucinich avatar?

[BlooInBloo]

15. What nunya said.

[spoony]

23. Yeah round 'em up!

[rucky]

17. Nice Avitar! n/t

[CAG]

22. "I think its sad that in the 21st century such pre-dark ages beliefs are even tolerated."

Wow, who let Stalin in at DU?
I'm sorry, but shall I just go to the gulag now so you don't have to "tolerate" my religious beliefs?
My, oh my, the stuff that gets typed out on some keyboards on DU would make Coulter's day. Its intolerant stuff like this that the RW morons can use daily to inundate america with claims that "all them libruls are just blood-sucking antichristian perverts out to abort your babies or teach'em to be homogaysexuowls"

[durrrty libby]

45. Personally, I don't give a flinging shit what coulter or the wingnuts think

I grew up with a faith practicing family and got a degree from a college with

with religious ties. But now I have come to loathe all mentions of religion

and politics. You can blame the idiot in chief for that

I am so sick of his and everyone else's phony religion.

"My god says in order to honor him, I must destroy A,B and C"

Fuck all religious idiots. They all can go to hell and shut the fuck up

Believers need to stop yapping and go DO good works

[CAG]

47. You miss my point entirely. I don't care what they think either, its their

propaganda, which is fed by comments from the left such as "F&%k all religious idiots... They all can go to hell and shut the f&%k up", and "can't believe they're still tolerated" (paraphrased), that gets constantly spewed to good, decent hard-working taxpaying mainstream americans. Unfortunately, we've seen the effect of 30 years of this propaganda; mainstream america, when their not careful, begin to think that to be a christian is to be a republican, and to be anything else is to be a democrat. Such thinking is preposterous, but it could help destroy any chance of moving america to a more compassionate, sensible nation.

[KingFlorez]

53. This is a free country

You might think religion is wrong, but a lot of people choose to have one and it doesn't make them delusional.

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. Prayer....ba hum bug! What crap!

:banghead: Keep it to yourself!

[rucky]

21. And Beliefnet should ask him about baseball? n/t

[spoony]

24. But you didn't...

That's the problem, too many people here have an (apparently overwhelming) compulsion to take any possible opportunity to piss on others' beliefs.

[Goblinmonger]

40. Isn't DK doing that?

I mean why even talk about it during a presidential election? Why feed into the unsaid assumption that you have to be religious (i.e. Christian) to be president? He can believe whatever he wants, but it doesn't mean fuck all as to his worthiness to be president whether he likes the Lord's Prayer, the Holy Mary, or William S. Burroughs' Thanksgiving Day Prayer (though I would respect him more if he tossed out a Burroughs reference once in a while).

On edit: And you are seriously bitching about someone attacking someone's beliefs in GD? Holy shit have you spent ANY time in this forum. You can't say that the blue sky is pretty without someone jumping on your back in the forum. It's the nature of the beast. There are Christian groups where you can go and talk about the beliefs of candidates and nobody will piss on anything in there (I imagine, as I don't go there because I ain't a Christian).

[durrrty libby]

33. Absolutely agree. I wish they ALL would keep it to themselves

Go do good works..help the poor, but please shut the fuck up about your stinking gods.
I don't want religion mentioned within a mile of a politician

:freak: :dunce: :hangover: :hurts:

:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

[BlooInBloo]

19. "Man would rather will nothing than not will at all".

[mentalsolstice]

20. I love that prayer!

Yes, I grew up with it and remember memorizing it in vacation bible school. As an adult, I don't believe that one has to accept a higher being in order to be a good person. I'm Catholic...yet, even with my faith, I don't know about our status before birth, can't explain the shit we go through in life, and I'm unsure about what happens in the afterlife, or if there is such a thing. Yet, I know, whether you believe (whatever you believe), or you're an atheist, the best of everything life has to offer, comes to those who feel in their heart that their fellow persons are equal...NO MATTER WHAT, and they act accordingly!

[DemExpat]

29. I turned my back on church and religion when I was 14, but I love this prayer still.

DemEx

[mentalsolstice]

54. It is a peaceful prayer!

Whether you believe or not.

[MindPilot]

30. I've watched politics since the Kennedy administration

and I cannot recall a time when the candidates made such a big deal over trying to publicly out-Christian each other.

I find it off-putting to say the least.

[Bluerthanblue]

36. well, i suggest it isn't the candidates as much as

the audience-
I was too little to understand 'religion' when Kennedy was elected, but i became more aware as i grew, and there was quite a bit of mention about JFK's "Catholic" faith being a good reason why he 'couldn't/shouldn't' be elected.

I've read many of JFK's speeches over the last several years, and i sincerly believe that he would not meet with much tolerance or support from much of the DU community because he was as 'in your face' about "god" and 'god-oriented' refrences as the most despised politicians of 2007.

Supposedly 91% of the American people want a president who believes in 'god'. (according to the media) -

:shrug:

[librechik]

42. I used it to break into my own car once.

worked better than a bent coat hanger.

Damn, That reminds me of an abortion joke...

never mind

[Goblinmonger]

43. Just further proof that an out atheist

will never be elected president. When the Dem candidates engage in little games of "what's your favorite prayer" they just entrench the white elephant in the room that there really is a form of religious test to be president.

He can like whatever prayer he wants. He can worship all (or none) of the gods he wants. What POSSIBLE impact does this have on the presidential race other than to send out code that DK is "safe" to vote for because he ain't no heretic.

:puke:

[MindPilot]

44. It's not enough for a candidate to simply acknowledge the fact

that a lot of people are religious, they have to BE religious.

As to what possible impact it may have on a presidential candidate, looking at the current administration, religiosity appears to engender serious issues with competency and ethics.

[Ladyhawk]

46. The special treatment accorded religion must end.

It is taboo to scrutinize or criticize religion. Why is this? Shouldn't religion be subjected to the same scrutiny and criticism as any other belief? Of course it should. The problem is most religionists know (deep down) how silly their beliefs are. I think this taboo arose as a way of religion protecting itself.

Look at this excerpt from an e-mail my ultra right-wing mother sent me a couple of days ago: "I have peace and love and that makes me happy. I also feel that I have proof both scientifically but more importantly in my own heart. If someone could prove to me this very day that God did not exist then I would continue to believe because I am content and happy. Life is good and is there anything more important?"

Religion is harmful to those who practice it, to the families of those who practice it, to the countries of those who practice it and to the entire world. Why? There are many reasons, but I'd say the top two are 1) it teaches people that accepting wacky ideas without evidence is the highest form of morality and 2) it teaches exclusiveness. Religion is divisive and dangerous and people like my mother will be willfully ignorant ON PURPOSE, neglect personal relationships, support disgusting politicians, hate homosexuals and force their narrow-minded views on others just so they can cling to their stupid beliefs and "be happy."

My mother's "happiness" is more important to her than anything or anyone else. I daresay this is true for many religionists.

I've stopped supporting moderate and liberal religionists for two reasons: 1) They betray reason and faith equally; their beliefs make no sense and 2) they provide cover for the fundies. If moderate and liberal religionists didn't insist that the rest of us respect their beliefs, fundies would look like the nutcases they are and we probably wouldn't be in the political pickle we find ourselves in today.

Moderate and liberal religionists, I would urge you to do some thinking. Subject your religious beliefs to the same scrutiny you would other beliefs. (Sometime religious credulity leads to credulity in other areas, but I'm hoping at least some of you will de-compartmentalize your beliefs and become more reality-based.

Religion is, at best, silly and at worst, lethal. If we don't end religion, religion will end us.

(Care to defend your god-belief? Come to The Rational Response Squad and we'll see how many of your beliefs are based on faith and how many of ours are based on fact.)

[Az]

52. What a politician believes is not as important

as what they do with their beliefs.