Why do you expect gay people to wait?

[foreigncorrespondent]

Yesterday I asked those straight people who believe queers should wait for their rights, what rights they are willing to give up (see: Not gay, but believe that now isn't the right time for their rights? Read on!

Today with this thread, I am giving a personal story of why NOW IS THE RIGHT TIME. Why we should not have to be forced to wait any longer for the rights most of you already enjoy.

Some background first:

Recently I was surfing the 'net and stumbled across a story of a man living in the U.S. who had a hell of a lot of trouble getting any woman to date him. He isn't (as he put it) the prettiest man in the world, had never been popular with the ladies (apart from the ones he paid for time with.) All he wanted was someone to settle down with, begin a family with, and spend the rest of his life with.

Because he was having so much trouble trying to find someone local to love he decided to place an add in an overseas newspaper looking for a mail order bride. That was five years ago.

He now has his mail order bride, and a child. The thing that pissed me off with this story though, wasn't so much how callous some people can be in regards to how a person looks, but how quickly he was able to get through the immigration process. Now, his wife is a citizen of the U.S. after sitting her citizenship test.

Just think about it for five minutes. He placed his add five years ago, and now, his wife has sat the citizenship test and is now a citizen. All that in just FIVE YEARS.

Now my personal experience:

Every girl dreams of being swept off her feet by a knight in shinning armor (well every girl unless you are a butch Goddess, then you might dream of being that knight in shinning armor.) I was no different. I dreamed of being swept off my feet, and I continued to dream of this right into my adult life.

All that dream means is, we just want to be loved. We want the one person God created for us to come in, sweep us off our feet, and just be into us for the rest of our lives. Not much to ask for, right? Nope. But you are one of the lucky ones if you have this happen.

7 years ago I had my knight in shinning armor ride in on her beautiful white horse and sweep me off my feet, and that is where our problems would begin.

Not only were we a lesbian couple, but also we were from two different countries. Only we met while I was visiting the U.S. so it wasn't like one of these online romances. This was real.

She didn't have the right to sponsor me for immigration because (and still today) the U.S. immigration refuses to recognize the validity of same sex relationships for immigration purposes.

During the course of our 7 year relationship we ended up spending more time apart than together (five years we spent living in two separate countries. The same amount of time it took our mail order bride hunter to find his wife, have a child and make her a citizen.) She was not able to move to Australia because of family commitment, and I was not able to move to the U.S. because of archaic immigration laws.

On top of that we have straight people who want to hold the monopoly on what relationships are all about, so they go about denying us marriage rights. Had we been able to marry when we met, we would have, and today, we would be together, instead of being apart, and now without each other in our lives. We didn't enjoy the same benefits as the bloke above, who was able to get his mail order bride into the country, marry her, have a child with her, and help her become a citizen.

Earlier this year our relationship hit the biggest hurdle ever and ended after 7 years of begging people like you to at least get in and support immigration rights for gay and lesbian citizens.

Who do I blame for this happening? You! The person who sits on their ass and tells us we have to wait for our place at the table. The person who believes if we just wait until the Dem's have power that all our dreams will come true too. But is that really true?

I don't think so, because history shows us, that even when the Dem's have power, we end up with things like DADT and DoMA.

So why should we listen to you and wait for our turn at the table? As yet not one of you have given me a really good explanation as to why.

You continue to sit on your asses and complain to us because the repukes might pick up 25% to 35% of the gay vote and cost you an election, when if you ask me, it is the other 65% to 75% of the vote that really is giving them the election. And those votes come from straight people.

Waiting has cost me my relationship. So you tell us why we should continue to wait until you feel generous enough to join our fight and DO WHAT IS RIGHT for once, rather than sitting back and enjoying your benefits and forgetting about ours, because I am really not willing to have any other possible relationships fail because of your selfishness.

[flvegan]

1. I don't, and I never will.

I expect people, both gay and straight to right the wrongs that our "system" has backhanded the GLBT community with.

[BlooInBloo]

2. I don't.

[NMMNG]

3. I sure as hell don't

Human rights should never be a matter of majority vote nor sacrificed for political expediency. Those who think they have the right to deny them to others should hang their heads in shame.

[Democrats_win]

4. Same old story: MLK addressed waiting also. "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

This is a quote from his famous Letter from Birmingham Jail

"We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant 'Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God-given rights. The nations of Asia and Africa are moving with jetlike speed toward gaining political independence, but we stiff creep at horse-and-buggy pace toward gaining a cup of coffee at a lunch counter. Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging dark of segregation to say, "Wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim...."

[NMMNG]

18. That MLK exerpt is perfect

I'm saving that for future use. Thank you! :thumbsup:

[foreigncorrespondent]

20. Exactly what I was thinking!

Fits right in with everything so well, doesn't it?

[NMMNG]

49. Indeed it does

I think I'll keep it on hand as a stock response to any jerk who tries to tell me we need to wait for our rights until after XYZ election.

[Jed Dilligan]

5. As a heterosexual male,

I firmly believe that while I am "waiting" my own freedom to have the relationship I want will be eroded by the same forces that deny you yours.

For me it's not an issue of your rights, but our rights.

[foreigncorrespondent]

7. And I agree with you!

If they are willing to withhold our rights, then what rights of yours are the willing to strip?

What pisses me off about the naysayers though is the fact that the majority of gay people all over the world are LEFT WING VOTERS. People that hold the same values as Mr and Mrs Straight Left Wing who tell us now is not the time. Yet we don't tell them now is not the time for abortion rights, etc. We fight right along side them for the rights they deserve as well. Why can't they do the same?

[Jed Dilligan]

9. This isn't in the abstract.

I've read Cal Thomas (ultra-right columnist) hinting that straight cohabitation may be next on the chopping block of his faction's sinister agenda.

[foreigncorrespondent]

11. Oh I believe it!

Australia is always a good example of what the U.S. wants (meaning we have a PM who takes orders from the U.S. government.) And if the current political happenings here show us anything it shows they want slaves to help make them and their rich buddies a lot more wealthier.

By the way, the U.S. got its little marriage passed here in Australia. I am a second class citizen in my own country.

[Swamp Rat]

6. .

:cry: :hug:

[foreigncorrespondent]

8. Thanks, Swampy...

...it was a hard post to write because it has been something very hard for me to try and get over and move on from, and your hug really helps. :)

:hug:

[Swamp Rat]

10. Believe me

I can relate. :hug: :hug: :hug:

[foreigncorrespondent]

12. I know you can. :)

:hug::hug::hug::hug:

[noamnety]

13. Thank you

On top of the obvious infuriating prioritization of who should get rights and who should have to wait, I get increasingly intolerant of those who on the left who aren't able to see connections between the othering of various groups of people, and how that directly relates to marketing wars. If we can't get past the first half of that equation, that "I have more rights to (this land, ownership of nukes or other weapons, water, jobs, marriage, etc) than those other people because I am (straight white American etc)" then we aren't going to get past the imperialistic/nationalistic mindset that makes us declare war. The anti-war stance is incompatible to me with anything less than full equal rights - and equal RESPECT - for all. That old line of "I don't personally believe in gay marriage, but I think they should have civil unions" is in my opinion part of the warring othering state of mind.

hmmm. it's possible that was incoherent, but I assure you, in my head it makes sense.

[Chovexani]

15. That made perfect sense to me

And you're right on. Everyone is interconnected and until we realize that hurting each other means hurting ourselves we will never get anywhere as a society.

[foreigncorrespondent]

19. Exactly! And very well said!

You made perfect sense to me. :)

[donco6]

14. Oh, just one more election cycle . . .

won't kill anyone, right?

:sarcasm:

And then it's one more, and one more, and one more, and pretty soon you're approaching 50 with absolutely no fucking change in sight. F.C. is right to be vociferous on this one. We've waited way past long enough.

[JohnnyBoots]

16. Because they are not American and don't pay taxes......

...Sarcasm of course. They are tax paying Americans.....wouldn't the, "Pursuit of Happiness" Apply? This is the next fight in civil rights

[Breeze54]

17. I don't expect them to wait ...

I've voted consistently for candidates that support gay marriage.

Very sad story. :( .. :hug:

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Your IP reminded me of film #5. Thought you might want to watch it.
It somewhat addresses the same subject as your OP.

-----------

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Judges: Carrie Fisher; Brett Ratner; Garry Marshall; Jon Avnet

[bling bling]

21. By all means don't wait. Don't let others stop you either.

What is it that you're doing, though? And what is it that you want done from other people here, precisely?

I don't think you should have to wait for rights. But I'm honestly at a complete loss as to what you're wanting people to do exactly when you ask if we're generous enough to join the fight.

This is an incredibly important issue. What are some solution-oriented ideas?

[foreigncorrespondent]

25. The answers are simple!

Firstly, what am I doing? During my 7 year relationship with that American citizen, I did a lot more activism than some on DU do in their life time. And obviously my activism didn't stop because my relationship stopped. Hell soon after we broke up I sent my ex the HTML coding for the site we had been running for years which relates to the current immigration system in the U.S. I had been working on revamping the site for quite a while, but when we broke up I hurried the finished product and sent it her way. Now it is up to her if she ends up using it or not.

My activism won't stop either. I come from a country where I am a second class citizen, I do not want to see that happen to my U.S. brothers and sisters, so I will do whatever I can in my power to stop that from happening.

As for what I would want others to do, to join our fight. Understand that equality is equality and asking us to wait is simply wrong. That there is never going to be a perfect time to do anything, so asking people to hold off at the cost of their lives isn't the solution.

We have to stop burying our head in the sand, because we are afraid of losing elections, and begin taking a stand that is not just right but morally right.

[bling bling]

26. What I meant was, what is it that you are doing right now that you want us to join.

I saw in your post that you were blaming people who sit on their ass for the dilemma and asked people to join you in the fight. I didn't see any solution-oriented ideas in the post, though, and wasn't sure exactly what action you were advocating for us to take specifically (if anything).

Your OP was a very good one. It's a fantastic story, IMO, for motivating people to action. I think it would be good to accompany it with some ideas of what people could do to make a difference.

[foreigncorrespondent]

31. Oh sorry, I didn't get where you were coming from!

Well it all depends on how far you are willing to go to support. Do you want to support the whole lot? Then it is a question of marriage rights and working out ways of getting marriage equality in the U.S. A good place to start would be in this thread by Oeditpus Rex posted yesterday. If you want to support the issue of immigration then it is a question of getting the following two bills passed, signed and made into law:

Congress: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.03006:

The Senate: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:s.01278:

Really it is just a question of what it is you want to support and then taking it from there.

[bling bling]

42. Thanks for the links.

The thread by OR was thought-provoking. This country was founded on the notion of "no taxation without representation." People who do not have equal rights are not being represented. It would be interesting to know how many millions of dollars gay people pay in taxes collectively to a country that denies them the same rights as heterosexuals.

[porphyrian]

22. I thought gays have waited since Clinton backed out of his promises to them.

Why would I want them to wait any longer?

[nealmhughes]

23. For the same reason that Booker T. Washington fought with W.E.B. DuBois..

Gradualism v. immediate redress. Lenin's Socialism in One Country v. Trotsky's Eternal Revolution. The DLC v. the Progressive Dems of America.

It is the eternal question of whether "slow and steady" really has ever won any race or not. Whether or not a "gradual increase as the people become accustomed to the idea of total emancipation" over a more radical "root and branch" approach.

Both are claiming to achieve the same results, the only draw back is that gradualism is often met with as much if not more resistence than is immediacy, witness desegregation of the schools and public facilities in the US. One might argue that the results of Radical Reconstruction were less unsettling to the status quo than were the near century long efforts of overturning the revolution beginning with Redemption in 1877.

The US did not rid itself of a meddling well intentioned by basicly mad king with a series of gradual measures. They addressed the issues head on and attacked. Were we to have approached the American Revolution as we do glbt rights, we would have a viceroy or Governor General in New York!

[ulysses]

24. I don't. neither do I expect

the poor to wait. Neither do I expect those who oppose the senseless slaughter in Iraq to wait. Neither do I expect the kids I teach to wait. Neither do I expect those who've lost their jobs to corporate trade agreements to wait.

What I do hope is that we'll eventually figure it the fuck out that we need each other, and organize.

[bobbolink]

62. Thank you! When did "we're all in this together" become passe'?

We've let "the man" divide us, and we've been conquered by our own small vision.

When we can't care for EACH OTHER, no matter that we're different, we're done.

DONE.

Thank you for including the likes of me in your expectations. :hi:

[jtrockville]

27. May I respectfully ask: WHO is this "you" that asks you to wait?

I scrolled through your previous topic, and couldn't find anyone who didn't support your having the same rights as everyone enjoys. I'm puzzled.

[foreigncorrespondent]

32. I don't have time to search through...

...DU archives right now, but if you go through the archives you will find a disturbing number of homophobic members of DU. It is those people I direct my thread to.

[jtrockville]

36. So sorry to hear that.

It's a very short-sighted and selfish perspective to expect you to wait.

[motocicleta]

28. This issue makes me white knuckle pissed.

I can't add anything wise. I just get so angry thinking about all of my LGBT friends who get screwed in this country because of people in my demographic (people like me, goddamnit!) who vote against my friends, that I lose all rationality.

K n R.

[foreigncorrespondent]

34. Trouble is...

...they aren't like you. You are here and getting pissed because you see the injustice in it all. They don't. That is the difference. :)

[pitohui]

29. i don't think you should have to wait but nor do i think that first story is true

my brother in law's wife, with ph.d. and good technical job here as well as being married to an american, was not able to get her citizenship for over 10 years so i just don't believe the mail order bride in five years story, sorry, i just don't

[foreigncorrespondent]

33. Think what you like...

...but on a personal level I have seen it all over the U.S. that in some parts people get immigration rather quickly and in others it takes a long time. There is no set time limit.

But my point isn't about time limits, it is about the way some dude can get a mail order bride (someone he hasn't even met) into the country, marry her, and begin a life together, while other citizens who meet the love of their lives, want to marry them, can't. It isn't fair and something needs to be done about it.

[pitohui]

37. i agree this isn't fair

but the mail order bride almost certainly isn't a citizen, she has a green card (not the same as citizenship, it just allows legal residency), you can get a green card can't you and start your life together? if you cannot, that is truly unfair

i recently met a stateless woman, stateless as a result of her dad's actions (fought in wrong army in that unfortunate asian thing) when she was an infant, and she still has no citizenship and can't travel outside the usa because obviously she can't get a passport being stateless but she still has a green card and is able to work

if you can't even get that much, it's truly unfair and i agree that others with fewer qualifications are getting ahead of you for reasons not clear to me

[foreigncorrespondent]

44. What life together?

We are no longer a we. There is no point in my trying to enter the U.S. to be with her again. That part of my life is gone for good. The final year of our relationship we never once saw each other. I haven't laid eyes on her since I took her to the airport back in October of 2005. But to answer your question, my ex and I had an immigration lawyer, believe me we tried every avenue, but when the avenues aren't open to LGBTIQQ people then it is nothing more than complete waste.

As for the mail order bride, well she is entitled to vote now, so make of it what you will.

[gollygee]

63. My husband is an immigrant

The good people at INS told us he could get his citizenship at 5 years, but so far he has not been interested.

[leftofthedial]

30. I don't expect gay people to do anything

[foreigncorrespondent]

35. Then...

...how do you expect equality to happen, if the very people who are oppressed sit on their bums doing nothing? Serious question.

[leftofthedial]

38. I don't expect equality to happen

this is capitalist America. There is nothing equal about it.

[motocicleta]

39. That seems a little rude.

Or am I misunderstanding?

[leftofthedial]

40. I don't think it is my place to expect anything from "gay people"

no rudeness intended

I expect all good people to work for social justice

This being capitalist America, I don't expect that work to pay off much

[motocicleta]

41. I figgered it was a bbs interpretive error.

"This being capitalist America, I don't expect that work to pay off much"

I hear that.

[More Than A Feeling]

43. K+R. You are right.

[LeftyMom]

45. I don't think the "now is not a good time" people are going to respond.

It's nice having a thread without their platitudes to the face and a knife in the back routine, even if I do want to see what lameass justification they have this week for twisting the knife.

[foreigncorrespondent]

46. LM, I will let you in on a little secret!

I never thought they would. LOL Just like my thread yesterday, I never thought they would. Those kinds just come out when they think they aren't being watched. They stay away from the threads which confront them head on.

And I agree, it is nice having a thread once in a while without them giving us their bullshit. But next time I see their bullshit I intend to direct them to both my threads and ask directly for an answer.

[hfojvt]

47. What is the alternative to waiting?

I support gay marriage, but do not make that a litmus test for my candidates. Would doing so accomplish anything?

I do not believe there is 'one person God created for me'. Any one of my ex girlfriends could have decided to be with me and it could have been awesome.

I can see that it sucked that your relationship ran into a bunch of legal and bureaucratic barriers. That should not have happened.

[foreigncorrespondent]

48. Tell me...

...where have I said for people to only vote those who support gay marriage? I haven't said any such thing. What I am talking about is people actually getting off their asses and supporting a community of people who have actually supported the Dem party regardless of what they have received in return.

The gay marriage issue was handed to us by the right wing, we cannot simply sit back and allow them to control it, we need to take control back from them. The only way to do that is by getting support from the general population.

I am trying to sway votes here, I am just trying to gain some support for people who have their lives thrown down the shitter by people who don't give a shit about anything but themselves.

As for your own beliefs, good. Your beliefs are NOT what this thread is about. My beliefs are NOT what this thread is about either. This thread happens to be about working together to gain not just a Dem win come next election, but some long deserved rights for people who have been forgotten.

As for an alternative to waiting, would you be willing to wait a fucking lifetime to have a life? That is what is expected of the LGBTIQQ community, and I am tired of fucking waiting. It has already cost me way too much.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. in this i agree with you. as a community i support our rights. i donate to people

who lobby for glbt rights.

however primary season has started, hence my comments about voting dem regardless of whether or not they support gay marriage.

[foreigncorrespondent]

51. And I will say this to you, pri...

...don't make me out to look like some fool who is out to twist an election outcome. Nowhere have I tried to turn people off from the candidate of their choice. None of my threads have been about that. Had you read them properly you would have known that in the first place. Had you been smart enough you would have realized what actually triggered these threads in me.

Nowhere have I told people not to get out and vote. In fact I despise anyone who doesn't vote. That comes from my coming from a country where it is compulsory voting.

So don't try and twist it now. You said what you said, to make me look bad, well it didn't work, because I will stand by the words I speak on a computer, in real life any day anywhere. I have nothing to lose, and nothing to be scared of anymore.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. i didnt try to make you look bad. for god's sakes stick to the politics

and stop taking on such a victimized persona.

i deeply despise people who use gay marriage as a litmus test. have since 2000. both in real life and online. i consider pragmatism to be better than idealism. and thats all there is to it.

also my name is priyanka, only my friends use pri. if you must use my name please address me as priyanka.

[foreigncorrespondent]

55. Oh bullshit!

Had you not wanted to achieve anything by posting what you did in my other thread, you wouldn't have posted what you did.

You know damn well I am not telling anyone to use gay marriage as a litmus test, I never have said that. Nor do I believe anyone should. There certainly are more reasons than just that to vote for people, I know this, I do it every election cycle here in Australia. And in my country, there already has been a FMA made into law. I am already a second class citizen here, so don't patronize me for not wanting the same for YOU in your country.

If you do not understand where I am coming from with my threads, then simply don't post in them, period! End of discussion!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. this post makes no sense to me. have a good day!

[hfojvt]

61. you offer alot of harsh words without many specifics

"get off our a$$es and support a community"

Okay. Fine. But how? In the first place, I already get off my a$$ all the time. Not 24/7, but I put a fair amount of effort into protesting Bush and defeating our Republican incumbent.

Whether I would be willing to wait does not answer what the alternative is to waiting. As a matter of fact, I already have waited. I waited until I was 40 before I got a real job. Even then it was only part time and I waited two more years before I got a full time job. I am still waiting for my first kiss. I daresay, there are alot of people in the LGBT community who have more of a life than that. You were kept from a woman who loved you by some bullsh*t bureaucratic barriers. That sucks. It sucks bad. But I am not sure it is the worst. I was kept from a woman I love because she did not love me back. I live alone because I am apparently unloveable. Personally I think that sucks too. In fact, I think that all of the LGBT people who have somebody who wants to marry them are better off than I am. It's ridiculous to say that they have nothing because they don't have it all, or even as much as they should.

[Dorian Gray]

52. I must have missed the thread yesterday.

I do have to say that at every integral election, since I've been reading DU, there has been this discussion about the gay community waiting until after the election to fight for their rights. It's an ongoing belief, and one that is probably most likely upheld by those not concerned with equal rights for the gay population. They believe that consolidation of Democratic power is more important than rights afforded to certain groups of people.

[foreigncorrespondent]

57. And when...

...it isn't about making us wait for our rights, it always is about how 25 to 35% of the gay population handed the repukes the election. It never ends does it?

[hfojvt]

60. So far I have only heard Republicans calling for a Constitutional Amendment

prohibiting gay marriage. Many such amendments, put on the ballot by the right wing, have already passed by large majorities in many states. It's pretty clear to me that GLBT rights do not get advanced by electing Republicans, any more than the war gets ended by doing so.

So I am not clear on how you (as in the GLBT community and staunch allies) are fighting for your rights, nor how you expect me to.

[gollygee]

54. *hugs*

I met my husband while he was visiting the US. He is also from Australia. It didn't take long to get him here with a green card, but we wouldn't have been able to do that if we weren't a straight couple. There is no reason you shouldn't have the same rights I have. It's awful. When people tell me that GLBT people aren't missing out on any rights by not having the right to marry, I think of this particular situation.

You should not have to wait. You should have had these rights all along.

[foreigncorrespondent]

58. Thanks.

You and your husband are very lucky to have had the rights. I really do wish you both a long and lasting life together. :)

[Midlodemocrat]

59. I don't. And people who do think that way are beyond fucked up.

Great post, FC. Good to see you! :hug: