125 miles per gallon!!!

[FourScore]

"The Pennsylvania based Lithium Technology Corporation recently demonstrated a new type of "plug-in" Toyota Prius hybrid car. The new model is based on advanced lithium iron phosphate battery which allows the hybrid car to travel up to a distance of 125 miles per gallon of fuel – making it possibly the most efficient mass-produced car in the world.

Lithium Technology Corporation (LTC) announced that its' new lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) technology might be incoporated in hybrid cars expected to arrive in the market in 2008-2009. The Toyota Prius demonstrated by LTC was also equipped with a "plug-in" capability which allows it to recharge using conventional power sources (such as a power outlet in the owner's garage). Currently there are no "plug-in" capable cars on the market but special conversion kits are available and a small number of people are already using them to recharge their hybrid vehicles.

Although the new long range "plug-in" Toyota Prius might prove to be even more popular than its current version (which since the launch of its second version in 2004 has sold over 200,000 units worldwide), it is still very far from breaking the world record for the longest drive per gallon of fuel. This record was recently broken by a prototype car built by a team from St. Joseph La Joliverie University in France, which set an astonishing record of 7,148 miles per gallon of fuel (3,039 km per liter)."

http://www.tfot.info/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&page=inline&id=209&catid=1&limitstart=189&PHPSESSID=b1a231f28ae3a77974b471bfa6c32ce2


Meanwhile, Americans think they are real-ly on top of things with their lousy 25-60 mpg.

Oh yeah! FYI, Georgie-boy has decided to scale back on satellites that monitor climate change! F**KER!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19030744/

[Fox Mulder]

1. Holy crap!

I was going to get a new car, but I'll just wait until this one comes out!

[Donnachaidh]

2. any ideas on when this will be coming out? And a price perhaps?

I'm drooling at the thought of that mileage!

[Captain Angry]

3. The technology exists.

But there is no incentive for Toyota to release something like this until the Prius stops being the most fuel efficient car out there.

When other manufacturers catch up, they can introduce a new model that kills the competition all over again.


The other problem is that this car COULD come out today, but it would be triple what any normal consumer would pay since the battery technology isn't low cost enough for the most part. But in a couple of years, who knows.

The price on release should be in line with what they are sold for now. They have a target price range for specific consumer segments. At introduction, some would be willing to pay more, but Toyota doesn't play the game that Cadillac plays. They put something out that is incredible at an affordable price. Cadillac tests their best stuff before the costs come down and use it to show off their technology.


I'll tell you, if they can do a 150mpg Prius, they can do a 75mpg 4-Runner. And as awful as it sounds to want an SUV, until the Prius can fit me, 2 other people and 3 people's hockey gear and move it through nasty weather, it's not going to fit my needs.

[Greyskye]

i'm given to understand...

...that Toyota is predicting that their next-gen Prius will be out in a couple years. Plug in, with around 100 MPG.

We've got a Prius now, and love it. But I'm really drooling for a plug-in w/ next gen batteries.

[TheWatcher]

41. When is it coming out?

:rofl:

Look at who controls the world and ask yourself that question again.

[Greyskye]

43. if I'm following your thoughts...

...then evidently I'm not wearing a big enough one of these? :tinfoilhat:


Whatever. :eyes:

[TheWatcher]

48. Be as caustic as you like

But there is no incentive to mass produce any vehicle like this. The Oil Companies and various interests that are vested against it are not going to allow it.

You can spit and snipe at people like me all you want. You're wasting your breath. 1. I could care less and 2. It solves nothing.

It would be better to try and fight against what is killing technology like this from mass-production.

Watch the movie "Who Killed The Electric Car?" Good starting point.

[Greyskye]

57. mirror time

I think that world events are providing plenty of incentive for highly fuel efficient vehicles. Obviously the oil companies and various vested interests will rally against this - I don't however have your pessimism that they will be able to kill all of these efforts dead.

From my vantage point, you appear to be the one 'spitting and sniping'. So please feel free to take your own advice.

And how in the world did you come to the conclusion that I am not trying to "try and fight against what is killing technology like this from mass-production"?

Sheesh. Save your condescending vitriol for someone who isn't on the same generally philosophical side as yourself.

[krkaufman]

73. Last I heard the "plug-in" capability wouldn't be available in the next Prius

More battery capacity and better fuel efficiency, but still no plug-in. (Grrrr..)

[Greyskye]

89. found this on PriusChat

The linked article has since expired, but here is what was excerpted from the article from about a year ago (July '06):

From AP:
-----------------------
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Toyota Motor North America Inc. president Jim Press said Tuesday the Japanese automaker plans to pursue a plug-in hybrid vehicle, touting the long-term potential of gas-electric hybrids on America's highways.

"Make no mistake about it, hybrids are the technology of the future and they will play a starring role in the automotive industry in the 21st century," Press said in a speech at the National Press Club.

Press, highlighting the company's work on alternative vehicles, said Toyota is also "strongly considering" a program to develop flexible fuel vehicles in the United States capable of running on E85, an alternative fuel made of 85 percent ethanol.

Press, who recently became the first non-Japanese president of Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. subsidiary, said hybrid technology has long-term staying power because it can adapt to several alternatives, such as clean diesels, biodiesels, ethanol, plug-in hybrids or hydrogen fuel cells. The automaker produces the popular Toyota Prius hybrid.

Now they certainly could have changed their long term plans on this in the last year. I sure hope not!


Do you have a link for a citation that says that they aren't planning on a plug in version next? I keep finding articles that say they are, but nothing newer than around December of '06. Such as this one: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/204210/toyota_prius.html

Owners are also likely to benefit from a plug-in system which allows the car's batteries to be charged from a mains socket. The newcomer is expected to hit showrooms in 2009, priced at less than £20,000.

[krkaufman]

106. I'll look around for references to the next gen Prius (likely also on PriusChat)

Re: pricetag of £20,000... yikes! that's $40,000.

[whopis01]

35. Wanting an SUV is not awful.

The Ford Escape hybrid gets 34mpg city which is better than a whole slew of smaller cars get.

Wanting something that is inefficient or wasteful is awful. The problem with SUVs is not that they are SUVs, it is that (in general) they use far more fuel than other vehicles. If someone makes an efficient SUV, then there is no reason to not use it (if you have a need for it...)

[Captain Angry]

71. As an Escape Hybrid driver, I couldn't agree more. :-)

But, it wouldn't suck for my Escape to jump to 75 mpg if I could plug it in.

[krkaufman]

75. Right. There is a difference between "efficient" and "more efficient"

And both MPG and emissions need to be taken into account, along with how much one drives -- all relative to the "norms" implicit in the averages. Someone owning a Hummer who only drives it 100 miles per year is less destructive than someone driving a stock Prius 100,000 miles per year.

[whopis01]

131. And everything has its proper use

What drives me crazy are the people who use a large SUV or other vehicle (efficient or not) for individual daily commuting in urban/suburban areas. A Hummer has its purpose (well at least the original ones did), but that purpose isn't for driving alone across town on the highway.

There was someone I used to know that lived in a big city and wanted to buy a Land Rover because of its off-road capability. When I commented that if she had one, it would never see anything but paved roads, she responded saying "I know, but I just feel more comfortable knowing that if I had to go off-road I could".

[focusfan]

123. A diesel hybrid would be the best of both worlds

Ford sells a 2.0 litre diesel Focus that gets 59 M.P.G.in Europe just think if they put that engine in a hybrid Escape what kind of milage that would get.I know I will get flamed for saying something good about Fords,but that is mostly what I have driven the past 33 years and will 33 more if I live that long.Fords Durotorq Diesel has been around for a good while and is very good.

[focusfan]

126. A car magazine did a longterm evaluation on a Camary V6

for a year and averaged 19 M.P.G that is not much better than a full sized SUV at 17 M.P.G.I have seen a lot of Camaries with blown engines at less than 70,000 miles and the average price for a used engine is $1,500.00 they are very hard to find.

[GreenTea]

4. The oil companies & American auto industry probably won't allow them to be sold in the US...

That's usually the route they take, with help from the republican corporations and the oil rich Bush administration...Fuck the environment, global warming, oil prices & our health...it's ALL about profits for these sick greedy monsters...just as their war for profit is all that matters to them, certainly not lives.

[Solo_in_MD]

28. Your tinfoil is showing...show where they have blocked things like this in the last 10-15 years

[robinlynne]

34. watch the film who killed the electric car, immediately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do not pass go. go see this movie.

[Solo_in_MD]

47. I did, but many of its claims do not hold water

[Canuckistanian]

61. Really? Which claims?

And if nothing else, the enthusiasm alone that those owners showed should tell you something.

Sure, there are drawbacks, but the benefits far outweigh them.

[krkaufman]

78. Yeah, gotta agree w/ Canuck. Which claims in 'Who Killed..?' don't "hold water"?

How 'bout you start with a claim from the movie that was debunked.

(Personally speaking... I worked for a GM subsidiary in Michigan and would have loved to have picked-up an EV1, but they were never offered in Michigan.)

[robinlynne]

119. The film has no claims, it has facts.

[orleans]

38. ever see the documentary "who killed the electric car"? you should. n/t

[krkaufman]

77. Can't lay the blame only at the Republicons' feet.

Michigan politicians -- mostly Dems -- have been extremely resistant to improvements in fuel efficiency, and would most certainly resist government efforts to facilitate these cars hitting the market sooner.

[EVDebs]

5. Cal Cars Initiative, 100 mpg already but you gotta tweak it first...

http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html

[Initech]

6. Man, if they could mass produce a 125 MPG Prius, I'd buy it in a second!

:wow:

[SeattleGirl]

7. Great idea, but I wish the vehicle was a bit bigger.

Not talking about Hummer sized, or even full-sized automobile, but ever since a really bad wreck I got in in 2001, I'm freaked about smallish cars (I have a Taurus). I had just traded my Sentra in on the Taurus, and was driving to Oregon for Christmas. I was on the freeway and a dog walked out onto the road. Traffic was extremely light, the weather was good, I gave a quick glance in the mirror and slammed on my brakes. I missed hitting the dog, thank heaven, but just as I was starting to accelerate, I was rear-ended by a Dodge Ram pickup. This is what my car looked like:



We were barely hurt at all, and were actually able to finish driving to Oregon (getting lots of weird looks on the way). I shudder to think of what could have happened to us had we been in the Sentra.

Again, I'm not interested in driving a gigantor-mobile, but smaller vehicles really freak me out.

[Dr.Phool]

9. Ever been in a Prius?

It's a full sized car.

I took a new one for a test drive about a month ago. It had a lot more room than I expected.

[SeattleGirl]

14. No, I haven't.

I suppose I'm not being fair in making a judgment about the car based only on seeing it, and not actually driving one. I think what bugs me about them is the rear end; just seems too close to the passenger compartment, and as you can see from the picture of my car, that's where I was hit. I still freak out some when I look in my rear-view mirror, and see the grill of a Ram pick-up very close to me.

[MelissaB]

26. We have one, and it's larger than our '93 Altima and Accord. There is quite a bit more

leg room in the back seats. We love it!

[Greyskye]

42. not to mention...

...that there is a TON of storage space. Space under the rear hatchback floor. Compartments on the sides of the hatchback. Two glove boxes. Small area under the radio. Center console between the seats. Hidden drawer under the center console. And the back seats have a 60/40 split that allows more cargo storage in the hatch area.

[mcg]

108. I own one, it has plenty of room.

Years ago I was thinking of buying one but thought 'no, it would be too cramped'.
My old car died, I gave the Prius a second chance and found it is far roomier
than I thought. I have a 2003 model, I like its more conventional rear window better
than later models' rear windows.

[SeattleGirl]

113. How is it on safety features?

That's my primary concern.

[Greyskye]

128. Excellent

Air bags all around, including side curtain.
Traction control
Anti-lock brakes
Pretty much the standard stuff you get these days.

We love ours - I feel it's the best car I've ever owned.

[Clark2008]

23. It's not as big as her Taurus or my Mustang.

I know. I've parked next to them. And, living in the city where Interstates 40 and 75 meet as I do, we get A LOT of semi traffic. The Prius simply won't hold up to being popped by one of those, but I know my Mustang will because I was rearended by one of those suckers back in 1997 and my car looked about like her Taurus. It actually still even ran, despite the fact it was totalled. (I did have some back injuries, but I lived!)

Besides, I don't like the way they look and they're too expensive. Why aren't they making fuel-efficient cars affordable AND sporty? It looks like having a car that's more aerodynamic, such as a sportscar, would also help offset drag, thus improving efficiency.

Sorry to complain, but I just can't, yet, see spending my very hard-earned cash on something I wouldn't want to drive.

Make sense?

Oh well, I never liked the "liberal" Volvo, either. LOL! I guess my taste in cars isn't very "left." :7

[Greyskye]

39. sports cars coefficient of drag

It looks like having a car that's more aerodynamic, such as a sportscar, would also help offset drag, thus improving efficiency.

The Prius coefficient of drag is one of the lowest out there at .26. I found some numbers for some sports cars as comparisons:
Ford GT: .36
Chevrolet Corvette: .36
Ferrari Spider: .36
Dodge Viper: .33


So which one was more aerodynamic? :evilgrin:

[Cobalt-60]

53. That old cockroach Citroen had a pretty good Cd too.

[focusfan]

124. They fall flat on their face on hills on interstate

I have seen them fall down as low as 45.That is bad when coal trucks carrying 60 tons can pass them on hills.

[Greyskye]

127. LMAO - sorry charlie

Sorry dudette, but I want what you're smoking. :smoke:

We have a Prius. There is absolutely no truth to this. I've taken a fully loaded Prius up some long, intense grades. At 60-70 MPH. Sure, I was only getting less than 15mpg at the time, but the trip down the other side was free, and it recharges the poor depleted battery pack. Oh yeah, in addition, the 'Hybrid Synergy Drive' keeps it at the most efficient gear ratio possible, so you don't have the issue of being in too high of a gear for the grade you're on.

Maybe that Prius you saw going 45 was driven by a little old lady who was scared of heights or something.

(edited to modify gender reference)

[gravity]

29. The Camry hybrid is much bigger

Although the gas mileage isn't as impressive, it still is very efficient for a car it's size.

[SeattleGirl]

49. I haven't seen the Camry hybrid.

I'll have to check it out.

[SeattleGirl]

111. Okay, just saw a commercial for the Camry hybrid. I agree. It's

much bigger. I could see myself driving that one without being freaked out. Very nice looking car.

[NastyRiffraff]

8. This administration will make it illegal

Remember the cow testing? If it hurts the oil companies, it will be banned.

[SeattleGirl]

13. Good point, NR

Though I did hear something on AAR the other day about how more and more people are becoming aware of the global climate change, they are getting sick of high gas prices, etc., and that consumer demand may help force the car manufacturers to start making serious strides in getting more fuel efficient and hybrid cars out. The person I was listening to (and sorry, I don't recall who it was) also said that the car companies may want to fight back against big oil, because high gas prices hurt them too in some ways.

[19jet54]

10. You need to pay attention to the details...

... here is what you missed or failed to research:

1) The 125 mpg is in the city only with a fully charged battery from the local power grid (not from the on-board gas engine) Many Prius owners who are engineers have already done this, no big deal really. You will not get that kind of economy on the highway once the battery is depleted. Acceleration, braking & speed have more to do with it too - these are ideal conditions - most likely not the way you drive.

2) The world records are prototype cars that are not safe for everyday road use. If you read the rules, they only travel at 15.5 mph and resemble nothing we could use in everyday life.

Basically the news article is comparing apples to oranges to pears. If you want to reduce dependency on foreign oil, go back the Jimmy Carter's 55 mph speed limits first - Aerodynamic Drag burns more fuel than any other factor except huge cars or trucks with huge engines; bring back Economy Standards for American Automobiles; re-instate tax credits for alternative energy - all of these measures were killed by President Reagan.

[ContraBass Black]

11. Apples to Oranges to Pears to Bowling Balls.

A plug in prototype is not a "new Toyota Prius."

[lfairban]

36. As I recall . . .

. . . the 55 mph limit was introduced by Nixon, not Carter.

[jmowreader]

55. Carter was the HVAC guy

He asked all Americans to turn their furnaces to 65 and their air conditioners to 78, and he appeared on television in a sweater quite a bit.

[lfairban]

114. According to his daughter, . . .

. . . Nixon liked to turn up the Air Conditioning and build a big fire in the White House.

HVAC= Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning

[19jet54]

117. You're Right!

[Gregorian]

64. Shhh. Don't spoil the fun. People love cars.

I'm continually surprised that people on this forum can dissect political spin, but cannot see past the shiny car object.

Screw it. I've worn my typing fingers down. It's not the car it's the generation of power.

And even if we were using photovoltaics, cars take a lot of resources and energy to build. AND that's just cars. That is actually not a big part of what needs to be changed in order for six billion to all live here. Oh well...


Edit- I should say that under certain circumstances this car is an improvement. But there is a bigger picture! That is what I want people to look at. But they simply refuse. Most people do not want to look at it. It's disturbing. It requires sacrifice. And it implies guilt. It's just too much for most people. In fact, discussing this with an engineering friend, I mentioned we ought to be looking 1000 years ahead. Even he couldn't tolerate that stance. Maybe 100 years. Well that's really being unkind to whomever inherits this mess we're leaving behind.

[krkaufman]

72. Bullet points aside ...

... the "125 mpg" measurement may be moot, for much driving, if one implements an after-market plug-in capability, or if/when the manufacturer begins doing so.

A 60-mile electric-only mode range, enabled through the above-mentioned battery, electrical grid plug-in charging and customizations to the hybrid's programming, would provide INFINITE MPG for those drivers driving less than 60 miles per day -- while the hybrid would also then accommodate longer travel via the gas engine. An additional benefit would derive from making the hybrid's ICE run off E85 or biodiesel, further shrinking dependence on foreign oil... or any oil, really.

As for your bullet points... there isn't enough detail in the article to determine exactly how the "125 mpg" figure was derived. Absent the data for their testing, it is unknown what MPG would be attained on the highway -- as that data would be highly dependent on the miles driven. However, as mentioned above, the technology described by the article could effectively provide infinite MPG for city-only driving within the daily operational range of the Lithium battery pack. And the 125 mpg Prius isn't really a prototype; they're out on the road now, in the real world, though not as mass-produced vehicles.

[19jet54]

115. Oops!

I did not get the bullet points from the article, but from previous research and other articles about the same subject doing automotive electrical engineering work myself.

The prototype I was referring to, if you follow the article links, is to the "MPG Challenge" vehicles which hold the records, not the Prius. The engine is an Atkins Cycle designed for gas - bio-diesel or E85 would require major engine changes; possible for the engineers but not the average owner; Not to mention CARB & environmental law considerations. This is no small task getting government approval (CARB certification stickers) for any alterations to the engine.

I was not "disrespecting" the car, but just pointing out that it is more of an electric vehicle in this configuration than a internal combustion configuration, where MPG numbers were swagged a bit.

[FogerRox]

97. Except

The 55 limit with todays cars is wrong. In fact it was wrong 10 yrs ago when cars started to get their best MPG in the 55 to 60mph range. My '96 Dodge Minivan continues to get 30mpg as fast as 64mph. Some modern cars get their best milage in the 57 to 64mph area. A 55 limit negates many of the advances made over the last 15 years, that we now see in modern cars.

[19jet54]

116. Kind of true but...

... I had to re-cam my 85 VW Westphalia Camper so that the RPM/MPH curve of the engine fell in the most efficient range for today's 65 MPH highway speeds. But I do not agree about aerodynamics not being a factor - At 65 I get 18.5 MPG with 5,000 Lbs & at 55 I get 23 MPG - That is damn good for an full RV. That is a 19% savings in fuel?

Neither do the Government experts - http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.shtml

[FogerRox]

130. never said aerodynamics not a factor... BUT been to that site, done it...

Computerized transmissions are a thing of the last decade or so.... they have stretched the plateau of optimum MPG out ... since 1973 or 1984 or 1997.


Dig a little deeper on that website, look for......nevermind... I saved the charts a while back



The above graph, you can see the trend, that suggests the technological developments have negated what ever aerodynamic penalty is paid by increasing speed. In 1984 the best speed was 47mph, in 1997 it was 56mph. today many manufacturers seem to optimize some cars for the US market @ about 59-62mph.

Here are the 1997 numbers separately


BTW, my '97 Dodge minivan, driven at 75-80mph still gets 26.5 mpg... vs 60 - 64mph, when I get 29.8. Why do I say 64mph? Because if I stick at 65 or so..... for an hour... my mpg drops a bit, but in that 55 to 64 pocket I get 29 to 30mpg.

Now if the cops would just enforce 65mph.... sigh....

[focusfan]

125. Highway mileage in a hybrid is lower than city mileage

[DRoseDARs]

12. Your title is a little misleading. You're implying the Toyota company had something to do with this

...when they didn't; it's just another private group "modding" their vehicle. Owners of such hybrids having been modding their cars for some time now and, like this group, have had pretty good results. It'd be nice if the Toyota company had done this, but they didn't. You really ought not make it seem like they deserve more credit than they earned here. Some posters seem to have already fallen for the unintentional mistake.

[FourScore]

15. Thanks. I didn't catch that when I first wrote the OP.

That's what I get for posting while suffering from sleep deprevation at 2 AM.

[Duppers]

18. it would seem to me that the mistake was not yours

From the article you quoted:

"Although the new long range "plug-in" Toyota Prius might prove to be even more popular than ***its*** current version (which since the launch of its second version in 2004 has sold over 200,000 units worldwide..."

As if Toyota had ownership.

[19jet54]

19. A couple of things...

... about this is that (like your cell phone) the Lithium Battery holds more of a charge than the Nickle-Metal Hydride and it also weighs less. Both help improve city performance overall because, if you plug it in, the battery charge is coming from the electric company which is much more efficient at energy conversion than the gasoline engine is. It will cost less too, even though your fuel cost needs to include additional electrical usage costs.

I forget exactly, but I think over 80% of most driver's needs are city driving, and use this technology very well.

[DRoseDARs]

21. The LTC press release makes no mention of the Toyota Company as a...

...partner in this demonstration project of LTC's battery technology. Unsure who you're point a finger at, if you're doing that at all. :shrug:

[FogerRox]

95. I thought the plug in Prius is sold in the UE?

[autorank]

16. I'm voting for that...thanks. It's time...or maybe too late but the car is cool. K*R

[DarkTirade]

17. Gorram, I gotta get me one of those...

y'know, after I'm not poor anymore. :)

[papau]

20. Meanwhile Honda drops the Accord Hybrid (folks want plug in and Honda's not there yet is

my guess as to reason - beyond the obvious of slow sales.

[Tesha]

22. Honda guessed wrong.

Honda guessed wrong.

They assumed that people wanted a car with more performance
(than a gas-only car) but roughly equal fuel economy so they
tuned their hybrid system to achieve this: it boosted the
output of a basically full-fledged gasoline engine.

Toyota assumed people wanted a car with about the same
performance as the gas cars they've been driving, but with
much higher fuel economy in city conditions. Their hybrid
system used a much smaller gas engine and depended on the
electrical technology to provide "adequate" acceleration.

Toyota guessed right (and happened to catch the market at
just the right time as well).

Tesha

[jmowreader]

56. I wouldn't call what Honda did "tuning"

Honda and Toyota take two completely different approaches to hybrid technology.

Honda's a performance-oriented company. They used the hybrid system as kind of an electric turbocharger. You CANNOT run a Honda hybrid without starting the engine. Honda's hybrids are also built on the same platforms as their gas-only Civics and Accords, because obviously if you spend the extra cash for a hybrid you don't want anyone to know it. (Well, they did have the Insight which is a very recognizable car, but it's also a useless car compared to the Prius--no back seat and a warning label "don't carry children in this car." It's the airbags that brought that on.)

Toyota basically wants to sell you an electric car that doesn't need to be plugged in. The Toyota engine comes on in two situations: when the battery is low, and when the car needs more power applied to the wheels to achieve the desired speed than the electric system alone can provide. Oh, and their most-popular hybrid, the Prius, looks like no other car on the road today because, when you spend the cash for a hybrid, you want it to be as obvious as possible.

[krkaufman]

80. And the beauty of Toyota's design is that it will take very little ...

... to convert them to plug-in vehicles, since they're already electric-with-gas-assist.

I just wish the gov't would work with Toyota and the after-market crowd to accelerate the technology development, getting Toyota to commit to supporting vehicle warranties -- outside the after-market components -- so long as the modifications are made by an authorized service center. And the gov't should provide add'l tax incentives (rebates/credits) to those who spend the cash to upgrade their hybrids to plug-ins.

[jmowreader]

121. I saw something kinda interesting...

Toyota's also working on a plan to make a "plug-in-the-other-way" Prius. Instead of plugging the car into the household current to charge its batteries, this one will allow the Prius to serve as a generator set.

It turns out that a Prius' generator puts out about 3kW. If you convert that electricity to 110vac, and feed it through a transfer switch into your house, your PITOW Prius will be able to keep your refrigerator, some lights and your aquarium running should the power go out.

Oh, and you can also DJ out of the back of this Prius. That's cool too.

This new and interesting idea, strangely enough, was invented by GM. GM makes a hybrid half-ton pickup; when they were designing it they asked contractors for ideas and lots of 'em said "put an outlet on it." Why the hell not? You have the power already there and an outlet costs twenty bucks if you count the wire, the junction box and two minutes of a UAW member's time screwing it to the side of the truck. This outlet makes the hybrid 1500 Silverado THE hot ticket for disaster relief--being able to use your Sawzall sometimes makes all the difference in the world.

[Poiuyt]

60. The hybrid Accord's gas milage was only slightly better than a regular Accord, but

it was several thousand dollars more expensive. Toyota did much better at the price/mileage difference between the regular Camry and the hybrid version.

[spinbaby]

24. I always wondered why no solar

I always figured it was logical to, in a hybrid car with a battery, to make the rooftop one big solar cell. It wouldn't contribute a huge amount of power but it would certainly help to charge the battery and add a bit of mileage.

[dweller]

32. here's a rooftop solar vehicle

http://www.thelastminuteblog.com/2007/02/11/tricked-out-vw-micro-bus-the-chameleon/

check out the surfboards :D




gnarly nuff for ya?
dp

[spinbaby]

33. I love it!

I want one!

[19jet54]

76. Sweet!

Nice VW Bus...

[eomer]

25. **Infinity** miles per gallon!!!

This car can go 125 miles by using one gallon of gas plus some undisclosed amount of electrical power stored into the batteries by plugging it in..

I suppose if you charge the batteries from solar panels then you could argue that you did get 125 MPG, but you could just as easily argue that you can get an infinite number of miles per gallon since you can do your local driving in EV mode and never use any gas at all.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm really excited about this technology and assume that my next Prius will be a plug-in one way or another -- but I do wish they wouldn't use this misleading statement about 125 MPG in their advertising.

[Squatch]

27. I just bought 450 shares of this company.

At a dime ($0.10) a share, I thought "what the hell?"...it only cost me $45.00.

:) :)

[Lurking Dem]

30. I just bought considerably more.

I figured "go large or go home". :+

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. When did you buy the stock? Recently? Today? I Googled it and it said $23.00 a share?

I was off to buy some LTC stock...not now. You did GOOD!:thumbsup:

[whopis01]

50. try buying LTHU stock instead.

LTC is a healthcare real estate investment trust.

LTHU is Lithium Technologies. It is still at 0.10 / share. Up and down a fair bit, but people could have made good money on this one.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. Thanks...Just bought it!

:hi:

[krkaufman]

81. Thanks for the suggestion.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. economics

Assuming average fuel costs and usage, a 30mpg car costs $1400 annually to run. A 50mpg prius costs $840 for a total annual savings of $560. It'd take a really long time to pay off the car at this rate.

If you're currently driving an 18mpg pickup ($2300/year) it might make economic sense to drop 22 large on a Prius... maybe.

The difference in annual cost between the 100mpg prius and a 50 mpg prius is $420.

Don't send your taurus to the landfill until it's used up.

[Lurking Dem]

37. If fuel savings is all you are looking at, then yes.

The economics will, of course, depend on what kind of driving you do and how much.

But i didn't buy a hybrid because of fuel savings. I bought one because of emissions.

[krkaufman]

83. Ditto what Lurking Dem said... plus "missions"

As in the military type. We need to get off foreign oil, and those who can afford to help shepard the technology should try to do so.

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. An '84 diesel Rabbit running biodiesel

Does even better in this regard.

[lfairban]

40. lithium iron phosphate

These are not your standard Lithium Ion batteries:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20020928/fob4.asp

They are safer and easier to recharge:

Testing will be conducted over the next year or so to determine the viability of combining them with Ultracapacitors for enhanced performance.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jun2006/bw20060628_655501.htm

Ultracapacitors have better Power storage, but not as much energy storage. Ultracapacitors enhance the acceleration, lithium iron phosphate batteries enhance the range.

Some testing of this combination has been done on e-bikes:

Adobe pdf file
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2001/TM-2001-211077.pdf

[19jet54]

74. Power & energy are the same thing....

... I believe what you meant to say was "Ultracapitors have about 1/25 the power storage of a battery, but it can deliver it at a much faster rate"

And for an electric car, acceleration requires a fast delivery method.

Capacitor - simply stores electrons
Battery - produces electrons via chemical action
Fuel Cell - produces electrons via chemical action
Solar Cell = produces electrons via photo action
Generator (Wind) = produces electrons via magnetism and motion

[lfairban]

112. No, they aren't.

Power is energy per unit of time.

For instance, for the http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large-cell/bcap0650.asp">Maxwell Technologies BCAP0650 Ultracapacitors:

Emax (Wh/kg) 3.29
Pmax (W/kg) 11,300

For the Lithium-ion battery:

Energy/weight 160 Wh/kg
Power/weight 1800 W/kg

(Actually, it is Energy or Power per unit mass, not weight, but most people confuse weight and mass so often that the two terms are often used interchangeably. These parameters are also called the specific energy and specific power respectively)

[19jet54]

122. my mistake.

[Bravo Zulu]

45. I read that repairs and parts for a Prius are expensive

I don’t know if it is true, but I heard that to replace the battery costs $4,000.00!

[Poiuyt]

59. Toyota claims that they've never had to replace any Prius batteries except those

damaged from accidents.

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. Exactly right and techs have said they have had Prii in for maintenance that had 250,000 miles on

them. :)

[chaska]

46. Ya know, what really needs to happen is conversion of used cars to electric...

This would be far more ecological than building ANY new car.

But actually, even better, we need to transition away from automobile culture altogether. We will have to eventually. Cars are a big part of what's wrong with our society its many, many problems.

[rucky]

51. The only way I'd ever get rid of my Prius

is to get me one of these puppies.

[bamacrat]

52. Bitchin.

I want one.

[Cobalt-60]

54. Don't they charge the battery first from an external source?

Fantastic mileage is possible if the energy source is charged at the start.
But the power bill is bigger.

[krkaufman]

86. "power bill is bigger"

Right. But not as big as your gas bill would have been for the equivalent miles driven... nor would we have to send soldiers to some foreign land to maintain access to your car's fuel.

[Cobalt-60]

92. quite true.

I'm not trying to diminish the achievement.
This could be charged from a windmill or solar array at home too.
But barring a revolutionary fuel injector or carburetor 125mpg in a
vehicle of useful size and performance is pretty unlikely.

[krkaufman]

107. It all depends on the range you're looking for.

The high-performance (neck-snapping) Tesla Roadster is expected to have a 200-mile range, and is all-electric.

[kwolf68]

62. Come on...

...come on baby...I have a 2005 Prius...I want one of these conversion kits yesterday.

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. ME TOO. I would buy one. I wonder how the other people got their hands on it?

The article says they have a conversion kit. There must be someone selling them. No? GO PRIUS! I love my car.:loveya:

[kwolf68]

68. Another question I have would be..

Would my highway mileage go up as well?

Despite all the whining about the Prius advertised mileage I can flat out say that in the city I get 60mpg and on the highway I get 50 mph. Obviously you can't drive like a nutjob, but I do speed (7-10 over) but don't accelerate hard and drive sanely.

My question is...would highway go up to say ... 100 mpg to match up with this 125mpg in teh city or would this be a situation where you'd get 125 in the city, but once you cranked it on the open road you are back down to 50?

I want one of these kits and will spend the money to get it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

79. post 72 from above...this may help you?

krkaufman (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-06-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
72. Bullet points aside ...
... the "125 mpg" measurement may be moot, for much driving, if one implements an after-market plug-in capability, or if/when the manufacturer begins doing so.

A 60-mile electric-only mode range, enabled through the above-mentioned battery, electrical grid plug-in charging and customizations to the hybrid's programming, would provide INFINITE MPG for those drivers driving less than 60 miles per day -- while the hybrid would also then accommodate longer travel via the gas engine. An additional benefit would derive from making the hybrid's ICE run off E85 or biodiesel, further shrinking dependence on foreign oil... or any oil, really.

As for your bullet points... there isn't enough detail in the article to determine exactly how the "125 mpg" figure was derived. Absent the data for their testing, it is unknown what MPG would be attained on the highway -- as that data would be highly dependent on the miles driven. However, as mentioned above, the technology described by the article could effectively provide infinite MPG for city-only driving within the daily operational range of the Lithium battery pack. And the 125 mpg Prius isn't really a prototype; they're out on the road now, in the real world, though not as mass-produced vehicles.

[kwolf68]

82. Thanks

I have emailed this company. This excites me. Most of my driving right now is highway, but I am moving (hopefully) to where Ill be doing more city driving.

[in_cog_ni_to]

84. This conversion kit would be PERFECT for me. I drive around town ALL THE TIME, with very little

highway driving. I'd never have to buy gas!:bounce: IF you get any info about it...would you let me know through PM? Or post it here? I'll bookmark this thread.:)

[krkaufman]

87. I've never been so looking forward to my auto warranty expiring.

(2006 Prius, ordered on the Monday morning Katrina hit shore)

[high density]

63. So my money shifts to the power company instead of the oil company

This is better because... ??? Now instead of just the annoyance of filling my car with gas, I would have to plug it in at night as well. No thanks.

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. It's saving the PLANET FROM POLLUTION. That's the most IMPORTANT feature of the Hybrid.

They emit virtually ZERO pollution.

[high density]

67. huh?

What about the hypothetical coal burning power plant down the road that would feed this car its electricity?

[Selatius]

85. You're right about the coal burning power plants, nevermind nuclear power plants.

Ultimately, unless we find an alternative source of energy that could power both our cars and our power grid at the same time and not end up polluting the atmosphere or the environment, this way of life will come to an end.

[krkaufman]

91. Right. And what about the hydro-electric power plant?

Or the wind or solar generation plants? The electric capability makes it possible to transport with zero emissions.

[IDemo]

102. Electric vehicles, even those relying on coal-powered electricity, are cleaner

Though to call them "zero emission vehicles" is incorrect, they are much cleaner than internal combustion. Obviously, they will yield much greater greenhouse gas reductions in areas served by hydro or nuclear.

http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf

[krkaufman]

90. Ummm... Have you noticed any items in the news lately ...

... about our invasion and occupation of Iraq?

- Lessen our dependence on oil, especially foreign (affecting nat'l security, trade deficit)
- Lessen fossil fuel emissions

[high density]

99. Many power plants burn what???

:eyes:

Solar, hydro, wind, they're all great, but coal, oil, gas, and nuclear are more typical.

[krkaufman]

109. The question was... "why is it better that your money shift from...

... the oil company to the electric company?"

And the answer is that most of our sources for electricity are available within our borders.

[high density]

129. Ever heard of oil fired power plants?

I still don't see the economic or environmental bonus of switching from gas cars to electric cars using power generated by plants burning fossil fuels (including wonderful coal.)

"Most electricity net generation came from coal. In 2005, fossil fuels (coal, petroleum, and natural gas) accounted for 72 percent of all net generation, while nuclear electric power contributed 19 percent, and renewable energy resources 9 percent. Nearly three-fourths of the net generation from renewable energy resources was derived from conventional hydroelectric power."

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/perspectives.pdf (page 12)

[KansDem]

69. Get it while its HOT...or before it's hot...

Big Charts: Lithium Technology Corporation

[high density]

100. DU used as a pump and dump? NM

[KansDem]

104. Nah...just that if you believe in the product and the purpose...

You might want to invest. This thing's going places (at 125 miles per gallon)!

[Penndems]

88. Cross-posted from DKos: "150 Miles A Gallon? You Want It You Got It G-M!"

It’s very rare that I write a diary in response to someone else’s. In fact, this is the first time I’ve done it.

But I have to respond to a recent Diary that said Toyota was "bitch-slapping" The Big Three. What can I say? I work at a GM plant. I’m biased:).

Last year, GM unveiled a concept car called The Volt at the Detroit International Auto Show. The car was considered to be one of the highlights of the event, as it advertised that it could get over 150 miles per gallon.

djtyg's diary :: ::

After the show, a movement was created to make sure that the Volt was created and not just left on the show floor as a concept car. Now the movement is producing results:

General Motors has awarded two contracts for advanced development of lithium-ion batteries for its electric drive "E-Flex System," it was announced today at GM's annual shareholder meeting.

GM selected two companies out of the 13 technical proposals it considered to provide advanced lithium batteries for both range-extender electric and fuel cell variants of the E-Flex architecture. The E-Flex electric vehicle architecture underpins the Chevy Volt concept car shown earlier this year and is being developed as part of GM's strategy to diversify transportation away from petroleum.

One contract will go to lithium-ion battery supplier Compact Power, Inc., based in Troy, Mich. CPI is a subsidiary of Korean battery manufacturer LG Chem. A second contract has been awarded to Frankfurt, Germany-based Continental Automotive Systems, a division of Continental A.G., a tier one automotive supplier that will develop lithium-ion battery packs. GM continues to assess other solutions to quickly bring lithium-ion batteries to production.

"The signing of these battery development contracts is an important next step on the path to bring the Volt closer to reality," said GM Chairman and CEO, Rick Wagoner. "Given the huge potential that the Volt and its E-Flex system offers to lower oil consumption, lower oil imports, and reduce carbon emissions, this is a top priority program for GM."

So you can expect GM to have a sweet, 150 mpg ride in the next few years. Plus, they’re bringing more jobs to the Motor City (or at least, its suburbs:)). Not only will you be able to buy a super-hybrid, you’d be supporting unionized workers as opposed to a union-hostile entity.

Suck on that, Toyota! :)

And for all you who still think The Big Three aren’t working on hybrids, check the list (http://www.hybridcars.com/cars.html)!

Daily Kos link:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/6/6/115249/9038








(Edited to include DKos link)

[in_cog_ni_to]

93. They should have done this YEARS AGO....have you watched, "Who Killed The Electric Car?" I suggest

you do and then tell us how much you love GM.:grr: The ONLY reason GM is doing this now is because the Prius is the best selling car. They had no choice if they wanted to stay in business. They could have been in Toyota's shoes YEARS AGO when they released their electric car and chose to kill it FOR THE OIL COMPANIES! Watch the movie!

[Penndems]

94. I haven't seen "Who Killed The Electric Car?", but I definitely will

Thanks for the heads-up! :thumbsup:

[in_cog_ni_to]

96. You will be so angry...you may want to have some Scotch nearby!

Or a beer or 2....:grr: I can't remember when a documentary made me so mad. That one did though.:(

[Penndems]

103. I'm always open to enlightenment, so I'll watch this documentary

There's one issue that perplexes me though:

Big Oil was one of the contributors to the downslide of the American automobile industry (if you're in my age group, you probably remember the 1973-74 Arab oil embargo). Why then would Detroit side with the oil companies in killing a product that would have, no doubt, been profitable for them?

Thanks! :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

118. Here ya go:

<snip>
The film deals with the history of the electric car, its development and commercialization, mostly focusing on the General Motors EV1, which was made available for lease in Southern California, after the California Air Resources Board passed the ZEV mandate in 1990, as well as the implications of the events depicted for air pollution, environmentalism, Middle East politics, and global warming.

The film details the California Air Resources Board's reversal of the mandate after suits from automobile manufacturers, the oil industry, and the George W. Bush administration. It points out that Bush's chief influences, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, and Andrew Card, are all former executives and board members of oil and auto companies.

EV1s crushed by General Motors shortly after production

A large part of the film accounts for GM's efforts to demonstrate to California that there was no demand for their product, and then to take back every EV1 and dispose of them. A few were disabled and given to museums and universities, but almost all were found to have been crushed; GM never responded to the EV drivers' offer to pay the residual lease value ($1.9 million was offered for the remaining 78 cars in Burbank before they were crushed). Several activists are shown being arrested in the protest that attempted to block the GM car carriers taking the remaining EV1s off to be crushed.

The film explores some of the reasons that the auto and oil industries worked to kill off the electric car. Wally Rippel is shown explaining that the oil companies were afraid of losing out on trillions in potential profit from their transportation fuel monopoly over the coming decades, while the auto companies were afraid of losses over the next six months of EV production. Others explained the killing differently. GM spokesman Dave Barthmuss argued it was lack of consumer interest due to the maximum range of 80–100 miles per charge, and the relatively high price.

The film also explores the future of automobile technologies including a deeply critical look at hydrogen vehicles and an upbeat discussion of plug-in hybrid electric vehicle technologies.<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

[Penndems]

120. Appreciate the info, in_cog_ni_to!

I will definitely make a point to watch this movie. :hi:

[trashcanistanista]

98. If GM does this

I'll get one. I just bought a used Civic and was planning after five years to turn it in for a newer Prius. I just couldn't afford one right now. If GM comes out with this, I'll get a Volt. They have five years. If not, it'll be a Prius. They really need to do something. Everyday I see more and more small cars on the roads. SUV's are becomming extinct. And I live in the mountains.

[Flubadubya]

105. Next car I'll buy...

:kick:

[HowHasItComeToThis]

110. How to Get a Plug-In Hybrid

How to Get a Plug-In Hybrid
(Bottom line: you can't get one yet. Though car-makers are finally speaking positively of PHEVs, they are years away from selling them. See How Car-Makers are Responding to the Plug-In Hybrid Opportunity.) CalCars and several aftermarket companies have converted a few dozen cars. For a list of conversions completed to date, see Where PHEVs Are.

SEE http://www.calcars.org/howtoget.html