Calling ALL WOOD WORKERS who use the common 10 INCH Table saw, aka THE FINGER EATER

[opihimoimoi]

Woodcraft, National Chain, has a new saw to prevent injuries....the damn thing stops almost INSTANTLY whenever your finger/hand ever so much as touches the blade...the moving blade....{google: stop saw.com}

As a wood worker using an ole table saw...I wanna get the damn thing...but I thought I would share this info to those out there who hadn't heard of it....

whatever it costs...better that than lose some fingers...

Opi

[Sapere aude]

1. Do you still have the fish?

[opihimoimoi]

3. No fish anymore...now into shrimp....its a long story....LOL

Thanks for askin...:beer:

[MonkeyFunk]

2. I saw a video of that saw the other day

very clever invention.

You can watch the "hotdog" video here:

http://www.sawstop.com/

[opihimoimoi]

5. Amazing...it stops in a micro second....your fingers are safe using that baby....

[krispos42]

4. I saw this on TV a couple of years ago

they were testing it with a hot dog. The blade stopped instantly when the hot dog was shoved into the spinning blade. The teeth barely made a dent in the skin.

Despite this, the students watching the demo didn't feel inclinded to take the guy up on his offer to have them try it for real...

:-)

[opihimoimoi]

6. I know I wouldn't...lol.....

[HamdenRice]

7. I always use two feather boards and a push stick

but the old dragon still scares me whenever I use it!

[opihimoimoi]

19. Me too....too many of my friends arew victims..their stories help me to respect the damn thing

[enki23]

8. opihimoimoi. long time.

so now you're a shrimp farmer, eh?

[opihimoimoi]

16. Enki...? Is that you? Damn, its been a long time....Missed you and Trog

Got used to Cajun food yet??

Gimme a holler...

:toast:

[woodsprite]

9. Think I'll have to get hubby one of them. We just ran to the ER

a few weeks ago. He was working with rough wood, used gloves (dumb move?), the glove ended up getting snagged in the blade and pulled his finger into it. Cut thru the seam of the glove, BUT he got off VERY lucky with only a 3/8x1/2x" by 1/4" deep chunk actually taken out of his finger.

[BuyingThyme]

14. No gloves, short sleeves, never a tie, always goggles.

Unless you're Tim Taylor.

[opihimoimoi]

23. or GW Bush

[hootinholler]

35. Or Roy Underwood

Anyway, I wear sailing gloves in the shop when handling rough lumber, No glove past the first joint of the finger, and they are tight.

-Hoot

[BuyingThyme]

10. Wow! What a wonderful thing!

BTW: Isn't the blade supposed to be set to where it only penetrates the wood by 1/8-inch?

Safety first.

[jmowreader]

25. That's what they USED to say

Turns out it's actually safer if you set the saw so the bottoms of the gullets on the blade are even with the top of the wood. That gives you two things: it lets the teeth pull the wood down tight to the table, and it helps the blade clear sawdust better.

Let me tell you about the SawStop saw.

It costs $2800. It runs on 220, and it weighs about 900 pounds. This is the cabinet saw--he's also working on contractor saws and compound mitersaws.

The guy who invented the SawStop system will license it, but he wants eight percent of the retail price of each saw it's on. Eight percent of a $2300 Powermatic PM2000 or $2000 Delta Unisaw is a nice chunk of change.

Here's the kicker--the thing that totally eliminates the saw from serious consideration for anyone who doesn't work exclusively with kiln-dried lumber. The SawStop stops the saw through capacitance detection. Basically, he puts a slight electrical charge on the blade. If something touches the blade that has more than a certain amount of moisture in it, the voltage in the blade drops and the stopper kicks in. Pressure-treated lumber is famous for kicking out the SawStop system. Telling a contractor he can't cut pressure-treated lumber on a saw--ESPECIALLY when every building code in America requires the bottom plate in every wall be pressure-treated for insect prevention--will cause that contractor to buy a different saw.

Interesting technology, but it's still beta.

[opihimoimoi]

27. Thanks so much for the Information....Appreciated....

:beer:

[BuyingThyme]

33. Things have changed since wood shop.

Thanks.

Hopefully the it will become more economical as the technology improves. Remember how much memory chips used to cost?

[jmowreader]

39. It can't go down in price all that much

The SawStop suspends the trunnion--the blade carrier--between two springs and a fusible link. If the saw detects something out of whack, it fires a charge from a capacitor through the fusible link, which melts it and allows the springs to pull the blade into an aluminum block.

Everything except the detector card, which contains all off-the-shelf components, has been made for many years, so unless they can get the price of that board down to free you're still looking at a $2800 saw.

If I was buying an expensive saw for myself, I know the most important "safety equipment" is between your ears, so I'd buy a Powermatic PM2000 and fit it with an overarm guard. A regular blade guard is attached by a piece coming up straight behind the blade. If you're cutting dadoes or some other non-through cut, you can't use the stock guard. Overarm guards attach to the fence, so you don't have to take them off. If it was for a shop where other people would use it, the SawStop would probably lower my workers' comp payments so I'd get the SawStop. (And I'd still fit it with an overarm guard.)

[EnviroBat]

36. Also, from the video, it looks like the blade is instantly destroyed

when the brake hits it. Still better than losing a phalangie. I'll never forget my senior year of high school, industrial arts class. This poor kids thumb shot across the room and landed at my feet. Wood-working has given me the willies ever since that day...

[jmowreader]

45. Yeah, exactly

When the blade drops onto the aluminum block, all the carbides on that side break off.

It's cheaper than a finger, yeah! But go over to the SawStop website and watch this one video of a user triggering the unit wiith his hand. (There's also a video of the "hot dog demonstration" where the builder attempts to cut up a hot dog with the saw.) Most industrial table saw accidents--as opposed to home handymen who've never owned a table saw before attempting to cut a full sheet of plywood on a Generic Chinese Bench Saw and whacking two or three fingers off--happen when the shop's rushing to try to get work out so they can get paid before the bank closes. But here's this guy pushing wood through just as gentle and deliberate as you please with his hand RIGHT IN LINE WITH THE FUCKING BLADE!

[EnviroBat]

47. I used to work a home remodeling job, it was a small outfit

just me and one or two other guys. We used to get in a hurry, and it would creep me out sometimes. I'm also a musician. in the long run, my passion for music made me decide that I didn't want to invite any accidents with my hands, so I quit. I would cut framing with a mitre saw hundreds of times a day. I would always think about the one little slip that would screw my life up but good. I'm really glad this thing has been invented. It would be cool if hands didn't need to be anywhere near the blade. Just feed the stock in one end, and a computer controls fences and guides, and viola! Out comes a perfectly cut broad at the other end. I know this is how things are done in large manufacturing plants, but it would be cool if they could make the technology available to the contractor in the field. Hell they miniaturize everything these days!

[jmowreader]

50. Your wish is my command

http://www.powermatic.com/shop/index.cfm?navPage=4&iid=139815&vid=2

[TreasonousBastard]

44. Well, that kills it for me...

since I cut a lot of green wood. Plywood, too, if maybe the glue sets it off for some reason. And if you spill something, intentionally or not, on the wood before cutting?

So, it's interesting, but I'm not all that impressed. I am really bothered by what someone said about tripping the thing and not getting it replaced-- how many tools are used by more than one person, and how often is someone who tripped it going to tell the rest of the household or crew?

Me, I'm worried about losing body parts, and am thusly careful, but there are just too many other wierd things that can happen. Once saw a guy get a bladeful of carbide teeth up his arm when the saw hit a nail in some recycled wood.

I use routers all the time, but they stil scare me almost as much as ripping with a radial arm saw. Ever drop one when it was running? Hit a knot and have it jump?

[jmowreader]

46. He doesn't HAVE to tell anyone

Two reasons.

The most important is that if you trip the SawStopper, the saw won't work until you put a new cartridge and a new blade on it. (Here's another worry for commercial shops thinking about buying this: if the manufacturer, who only sells a couple thousand saws a year, goes under, how do I get a new cartridge? No one else in the woodworking machinery industry makes these.)

The other is that when it trips it gives a real loud WHANG. You'll know.

[EnviroBat]

48. Man, that is some creepy stuff...

That's why I got in to the I.T. field. Nothing to jump out and rip my arm off...

[Tesha]

52. It's also a "one way trip".

It's also a "one way trip".

Once that aluminum stopper block slams into the blade, the
kinetic energy of the stop (typically) welds the stopper
block to the blade and you can throw both of them away.

That's fine if it never gets a "false positive", but if
it gets more than zero of those in its lifetime, people
will disable it.

Tesha

[katmondoo]

26. About 12 years or so ago I almost cut off my thumb with a dremel

4 inch blade. I was fortunate to have a very good micro surgeon to do the repair work. I have almost 85% use and that is considered very good for the amount of damage done. 1/8 will cut through all the nerves and tendons. It won't save you. I still use a saw but one that is very safe. It doesn't go as fast is only a 3inch blade but does the work I need it for. (miniature furniture)It is a Preac $380.00 dollars but well worth it.Of course I now use all safty measures when pushing the wood through the blade.

[opihimoimoi]

29. I haven't used my dremel in years.....but then I don't work minatures...

Good to hear ya got back most of your hand/fingers....

Happy Sanding

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

11. They need to put this technology on Joiners!

In my extensive experience, more wood-butchers lose fingers to joiners than to tablesaws...

BUT, as always, there ain't no cure for Stupid, and most shop injuries start with One Thing and One Thing only - carelessness. I could literally go on for hours about all the lost fingers I've seen sucked into the dust removal system, or rolling out the tail-end of the straightline ripsaw, or falling through the out-feed table of a jump-saw.

I once made a run across town to the woodshop of some friends. When I arrived, I noticed half a dozen guys in the 40-yard dumpster under the blower. "Whatcha doin'?" I asked. "We're looking for Yang's finger!" someone hollered.

[opihimoimoi]

20. Yup, them Joiners/jointers are Holy Hell to hands and fingers...I seen the damage and its not pretty

Hamburger....

same for the dado blade,,its burger time....no saving shit....

[Poiuyt]

12. "Know where your fingers are at all times."

I had a friend who had some fingers cut off by his table saw. Fortunately, they were able to sew them back on. Virtually every time I use my table saw, I think of him and also the above phrase. It has become automatic that I think of those two things before I begin a cut.

Of course, putting your fingers into a spinning blade is not the only danger to using table saws. I've had wood kick back at me with quite a bit of force. The table saw is a very dangerous tool and deserves a lot of respect and total concentration.

http://www.woodcraft.com/stores/sawstop.aspx?keyword=saw_stop&refcode=06INGOOG

[opihimoimoi]

24. A well deserved nickname...THE FINGER EATER

[deadmessengers]

28. I've heard of woodworkers being KILLED by kickback

Kickback into the abdomen, causing a lacerated liver and death from massive internal blood loss.

Don't remove that splitter, people - you really do need it.

[opihimoimoi]

31. Yup, especially when ripping skinny pieces..they are like an arrow

Get to the surplus store and git some body armor...LOL

[deadmessengers]

13. Cool technology

It's nifty, and a great piece of safety technology. I do have one rather major safety complaint about it. (one caveat: I last looked at this several years ago, and they may have made some design changes since then.)

There's a special brake that stops the sawblade. That brake, along with the sawblade, is destroyed each time it is deployed, and must be factory-replaced (it's damn near the cost of the saw).

Now, I absolutely agree that replacing a brake and sawblade is better than an accidental amputation. Here's my problem: My understanding is that the saw will still continue to work after the brake is deployed, without the safety features. That is shockingly dangerous.

The potential problem is that someone might have their finger saved by the stopsaw, and then decide to continue to work on their project without stopping to replace the brake and blade.

Then, you end up with a false sense of safety, since the safety features you perceive to be there are absent. That's more dangerous than using a traditional saw - with a real saw, you KNOW it can hurt you, and you're more likely to take the necessary precautions.

In other words, it presents the possibility of a false sense of safety, which is far worse than having no sense of safety at all.

[Xithras]

18. Actually, it may destroy the entire saw.

I saw a piece on this on one of the home carpentry shows a while back. The thing stops the blade with such force that it can wreck the bearings in the saw itself, forcing the owner to rebuild or replace the whole thing. Still, I guess that's cheaper (and less painful) than losing a finger.

The guy who invented this tried to market it to the major manufacturers for years, but none were interested for the very liability reasons you mention. His plan now is to force its adoption by placing the manufacturers at legal risk by NOT adopting it. The next time someone loses a finger to a new table saw, their lawyers will be able to demonstrate that the manufacturer is liable because there is an effective safety measure on the market that the manufacturer failed to implement.

He has developed additional versions for circular saws too, but it's not quite as effective (since the saw isn't mounted, the whole body "jumps" when the blade locks). In theory, the technology behind it can be applied to pretty much any heavy or mounted power tool on the market. I knew a kid in junior high who could have used one of these on the shop class bandsaw.

[opihimoimoi]

21. Much easier/cheaper to replace saw/tool than them fingers/handss

[opihimoimoi]

22. Lets hope/wish/pray they upgrade the damn thing.....

[jebediah]

15. *Expensive.* I stopped in and talked to a rep at a local supplier.

They had one on display. It was over $3000. The mechanism that stops the blade is about $80 if I recall correctly. It needs to be replaced each time it's used. It's basically aluminum that slams into the blade with a computer chip on it. I think it was a little like a black box in jet planes.

Of course, fingers are worth far more than that. Personally, good practices should suffice.

Oh, yea, the rep mentioned the patent being challenged (or whatever the process is) by some lawmakers or litigators so the price can come down and it can be more widely distributed.

[opihimoimoi]

17. Alas, monkeys fall from trees....all too many injuries out there...the video says 1 every 9 minutes

in the USA....

A new saw goes for $2500 so a stop blade feature is not that much more....If I got the money and need a new saw...I gonna get it.

[Javaman]

30. Dang, I literally just bought a new craftsman 10" two days ago...

However, as much as I like this new technology, sadly it's out of my price range.

I guess, if I pop a digit, the cost to reattach it would buy me a few of these :(

On a side note: my family has been buying craftsman tools for years and this 10" table saw is my first one. I was a bit disappointed that the main body was made of plastic and not caste iron like my dad's old one. (I wish I had that one)

[opihimoimoi]

32. Them Craftsman tools have been suffering in quality for the past few years

I juyst bought a chain saw from them...it was so bad...I had to return it for the money....then I spent big bucks for a Husquevana...about $300 or so....Damn, what a diff....I will never buy Sears for chainsaws

Re tablesaws...I got a rockwell cabinet thing...220v but works like a charm...

[deadmessengers]

34. Their hand tools are still great

Still great quality hand tools, and still with that no-questions-asked lifetime warranty.

[Javaman]

37. This is true. They do still make great basic tools. nt

[JVS]

38. how can it tell a finger from a board?

[deadmessengers]

40. Look at jmowreader's excellent comment above for an explanation n/t

[trekbiker]

41. I could get a good Delta Unisaw for less than that

plus a whole bunch of top notch blades. I've owned a few T saws over the last 20 years. First thing I do is remove the stock blade guard, the damn thing is always in the way. Use the best blades you can afford and KEEP THEM SHARP. Learn to feel how the wood is feeding thru during the cut. The biggest problem is the more experienced you get the more chances you take, you cut faster and faster and the closer you let your fingers get to the blade. Most experienced woodworkers are guilty of this to some degree. Slow down and concentrate on the cut. Use push sticks, dont wear gloves, long sleeved shirts, etc. WEAR EYE PROTECTION, you have a much better chance of eye injury in a woodshop than a cut injury. I've never even come close to an accident on a table saw. drills and circular saws make me much more nervous.

[deadmessengers]

43. Eye injuries and cut injuries go together

From what I understand, they happen at the same time with unfortunate frequency. People will get something in their eye, and move their hand into the blade while reacting to it (and blind).

[Tesha]

53. Argggg, this idea just begs for this joke...

Not to belittle the risk of saws one bit, but this idea
of simultaneous eye and hand injury just begs for this...

---

A young man of the Merchant Navy (and we may assume in days of yore before such things became fashionable in the Asian Pacific waters) is in a hostelry, not unlike the Benbow Inn, talking with an old sea dog, who, by chance, is a pirate.

He displays the classic attribues, or rather lack of them, in form of one leg, one hand, and one eye.

"Say old man" the young 'un asks at length, for the rum is good and fear and rum are strangers, "say, how come you only have the one leg, what happened to the other?"

"Haar-haaaargh!" the pirate returns as pirates are supposed to do, "I got that there out in the Arrrrtlantic I did, when this ol' shark begins a quaaaarel with me, haar-haaaaar. He got a mighty feast out of my port side leg I can tell 'ee"

"Gosh" remarked the young man, though he may have expressed himself more crudely, "you don't say, a shark bit your leg off."

"Haar-haaaaaar, young 'un, I do say"

"And your hook, I see you lost a hand?" the young man went one regarding the fearsom iron appendage that took the place of five digits

"Haar-haaaaaaaar lad, 'twas fighting the King's own men that happened. I were boardin these here tub filled with gold, when up pops His Majesty's tars and well, one swiped it clean off with a cutlass, before I dives into the sea and swims for me life m'boy and errrscapes to a treasure island"

"That neatly sews up the Hackneyed story" the young man thinks, "Almost"

"And your eye, old timer" he says aloud, "in what tale of daring do did you lose that piece of vital anatomy."

"Haar-haaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrr" cried the pirate, "I gots that on account of a seagull shittin' in me eye!"

The young man, used now to tales of terror and fight, is a bit non-plussed.

"Seagull shit lost your eye?"

The pirate looked downcast

"Har, well, 'twas only the second day after I got this 'ere hook!"

[atommom]

42. That's a great invention. My dad once cut his hand with a circular saw,

and it was a nasty injury!

[Hubert Flottz]

49. It's too bad the world's first carpenter(Eve)didn't have one of those.

Now for a smart hammer so Bush can drive nails too!

[opihimoimoi]

51. Bushy holds them hammers like gurly men do..full choke...and tiny hits on small nails....

that man don know shit....even fucks up jokes in a bar

[Stinky The Clown]

54. Oh man ..... I'm still driving a VERY old 8" Shopsmith and a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw.

The Shopsmith and its blade guard were separated back when Moby Dick was a minnow. I keep the blade higher than normal (gullets at the face of the wood) to help keep the wood pressed into the table. I also use top and side feather boards and a push stick.

Here's a 10ER Shopsmith like my old relic ......



http://mkctools.com/10er48843.htm