Religious Conservatives courageously gunning down female journalists

[Vexatious Ape]

For the crime of un-Islamic behaviour, Zakia Zaki, the headmistress of a girls school, and owner of a private radio station in Afghanistan, was gunned down in her home. Seven shot's to the back, head, feet and chest. This happened 5 day's after another female reporter was murdered.
She had received warnings by local religious warlords to shut down the radio station or face the consequences.
Such brave, devout pious men of the book.
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2007/June/subcontinent_June252.xml§ion=subcontinent

[maxsolomon]

1. an effective warning & demonstration of will

this is how terror operates.

the US military has no clue how to counter an action like this. none.

KURTZ
" I've seen horrors...horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call
me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that...But
you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is
necessary to those who do not know what horror means.
Horror. Horror has a face...And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and
moral terrorare your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared.
They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces...Seems
a thousand centuries ago...We went into a camp to innoculate the children.
We left the camp after we had innoculated the children for Polio, and this old
man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went
back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There
they were in a pile...A pile of little arms. And I remember...I...I...I cried...
I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I
wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want
to forget. And then I realized...like I was shot...Like I was shot with a
diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead...And I thought:
My God...the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect,
genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not
monsters...These were men...trained cadres...these men who fought with
their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with
love...but they had the strength...the strength...to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You
have to have men who are moral...and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling...without passion...
without judgement...without judgement. Because it's judgement that
defeats us. "

[Vexatious Ape]

2. I couldn't crawl into the mind of a man

that could kill a women like this--and for such an asinine reason.

[maxsolomon]

17. you don't need to crawl in there

but this is why we cannot defeat the ignorance of fundamentalism by force of arms.

the fundamentalist is convinced that God approves, and has no love for his life, only the afterlife.

only consistent demonstrations of peace & love can change their hearts, and it will take generations.

[MindPilot]

21. That monologue was probably one of the most chilling scenes ever

I wonder if * has ever seen the movie?

[maxsolomon]

78. but Kurtz's assertion is completely correct.

war has always been about brutalizing the invaded populace into submission. kill all the men, hack off their genitals & parade them through the capital. crucify all rebels along the main roads. put the heads of invading soldiers on pikes. rape all the women. enslave all the children.

simply put, we are not willing to play by the same rules that al queda is. if we were, we could win. but we are not. therefore, we should not fight them on their terms.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solo_in_MD]

5. And viable stats to back that up

considering that domestic violence in the US is nearly 50-50

[Madspirit]

10. haha

Not even close to 50-50...not even close. ...and when it's the male who is the perpetrator, it OFTEN leads to death. What a crock of stupid crap. Go to the DOJ website. They have tons of stats as do most links about battering. Jeez....

THE NUMBER ONE KILLER OF PREGNANT WOMEN IS AT THE HANDS OF THE FATHER OF THEIR BABY. Top that.

Lee

[Morgana LaFey]

103. What an insulting fucking lie

With the Kelsey Smith kidnapping and death, I have absolutely HAD it with murderous, sexually perverted, predatory men, and there are far too fucking many of them on the planet. I'm not too fucking fond of their APOLOGISTS, either.

[Solo_in_MD]

113. Many people are tired of the insulting fucking stereotyping

of men as the only violent people. The list has both genders and all sexual orientations well represented

[Morgana LaFey]

134. Well, how about the FACT that men are responsible for the vast,

vast majority of violence in the world? It's so ridiculous for ANYone to be having their little hissy fits over this TRUTH. MEN ARE THE VIOLENT ONES, overwhelmingly.

Nor does it work to try to claim, "but women are violent too." Some women are, but the numbers are so small as to be meaningless as compared to male violence.

You are RAISED to be violent. You are raised to glorify violence. This whole culture was. You are raised to kill things -- with impunity. "Killing, GOOD." Women, for the most part, are not (tho frankly too many of us women are too comfortable with killing for my taste, but we're still much better than men on that score). Women are innately less violent, and that seems to have to do with our capacity to give life, and our responsibility to care for life.

Violence is a PERVERSION of the male archetype and the warrior archetype. Those of you who want to shrug off your responsibility in this are wrongheaded and misguided and ARE responsible, absolutely, for perpetuating a violent world. No doubt about it. We ALL are, but I'm calling out you MEN who benefit so much from a misogynist world where there is so much violence against women simply because they are women -- and male-on-male violence as well -- to STOP IT.

Damn it, STOP IT.

Quit hiding behind the ultra-weak defense, "But women do it too." So the fuck what? Men rule this world, men are the ones responsible for most of the violence, and IF YOU ARE A MALE, you are responsible for helping stop it far more than we women are. We can only do so much.

Or perhaps the real truth is you LIKE the violence? You don't WANT to get rid of it? You'd feel emascualted if as a man you'd have to give up men's entitlement to be as violent as they wish (within the law, at least sometimes)? It's a possibility.

[Solo_in_MD]

140. at least you aren't trying to back up the bogus 99% stat used earlier

My experience does not match yours, neither do the real numbers. Your misoandrist views are neither rationale nor helpful.

Violence is a HUMAN condition. Its needs to be solved by HUMANS. Your pathetic attempt to assign it all to some HUMANS and absolving the others is truly asinine, and discredits you and the causes you support. Violence is well represented across all segments of the human race, including gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity and religion.

Don't blame it all on a group that you don't happen belong to and expect anyone else to buy it.

[Morgana LaFey]

148. ANd your insistance that I'm trying to say "all men" discredits you

And NO, violence is NOT a human condition. That tired, sad myth (lie) alone helps perpetuate violence.

Violence is well represented across all segments of the human race, including gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity and religion.

Strawman. That wasn't the discussion. Take that one (with its inherent flaws) somewhere else.

[Solo_in_MD]

151. so what fraction men are responsible for the 99.6% of the world's violence you are blaming on men

Your misoandry continues unabated and unsupported.

[Morgana LaFey]

165. I don't know, why don't you tell me?

Since it's so important to you.

But I'll tell you this: anyone who doesn't see the quite obviously self-evident facts in front of your face every damn day that men are by far the more violent creatures on the planet, is just delusional. Or being silly.

In the past week I've seen about 5 stories on the tube about kidnapped and/or assaulted and/or killed women and girls. CLue phone: it wasn't other women who killed them. And this was just one week, and not even ALL occurrences across the country (or world) of violence against women. Nor do women do this to men. SOMETIMES you find a woman gone whacko who stalks; SOMETIMES women end up killing their abusers. But the stats are tilted so far over on the side of men the predators and assaulters and killers that it's not even worth dignifying a question like this with the remotest bit of research.

We're done. I won't entertain any more ridiculous rhetorical or delusional games. MEN are the violent half of the species. Period. It's self-evident. Period. Admit/acknowledge it or not, your choice. Look delusional or not, your choice. Help fix things or not, your choice. Serve peace and life or war and death, your choice. Be on the side of the weak and the vulnerable or the oppressors, your choice.

[TransitJohn]

6. Bullshit eom

[durrrty libby]

12. Think about. it

Armed robbery, murder,ethnic cleansing, car jacking, rape, child molesters, torture

[MindPilot]

22. Funny thing though, all us evil men were born to mothers.

How come they didn't do a better job of raising us? Particularly since all the fathers are deadbeats who ran off with younger women and didn't pay their child support.

[durrrty libby]

25. That a boy ....blame mommy. No personal responsibility involved

Many years ago, maybe 20, there was a famous rape case in MA.

The young woman was raped by several men in a bar, and not one person

came to her rescue. They ignored it, cheered them on or took part


It was a real eyeopener to me. What was even more amazing, was how many men

defended the ignorant behavior.

[EstimatedProphet]

32. Yeah, you're right

Because that crime happened, all men are now guilty of all bad things until the end of time. But of course, we were already guilty weren't we?

[JVS]

44. It's as though one of us listened to a snake at the produce aisle

[EstimatedProphet]

47. Quite

[durrrty libby]

52. Living in denial does not help the human race move forward

[EstimatedProphet]

54. Aw, you funny!

[JVS]

55. you mean like denying that 52% of the population might be responsible for more than .1% of evil?

[Dhalgren]

59. Anyone who does not recognize that most crimes almost all wars

and the majority of oppression in this world is caused by men, and in particular men, then they are being disingenuous at best. This isn't something that can really be debated. The facts speak for themselves. Almost all violent crime, almost all wars in history, almost all oppression everywhere are caused by men. Women, as a group, are far, far less violent than are men. You can pretend that it isn't true, but pretense is all it will be...

[EstimatedProphet]

63. Really?

Margaret Thatcher
Evita Peron
Indira Gandhi
Victoria
Golda Meir
Marie Antionnette
Elizabeth I
Ilse Koch
Helena Bathory
Catherine II
Beverly Allitt
Velma Barfield
Sue Basso
Celeste Beard
Martha Beck
Mary Ann Cotton
Aileen Wuornos

This is a far from complete list.

[Dhalgren]

127. What a pathetic little list. You've got to be kidding! Are you seriously trying

to put forward that there are as many women throughout history guilty of violence, violent crime, war, and destruction on a large scale as there are men? I did not say that there were no women who were, I said the great majority - most - of these offenders were men. But, hey, whatever helps you come to grips with things (heh heh) Ok, I get who you are now. No point in dragging this out any further. So long :hi:

[Scout]

135. some people are too (willfully?) ignorant to realize that

"most violence is committed by men" /= "most men are violent"

these are the ones that always always come into a thread and whine "not me, i'm not like that so stop saying that about ALL men"

everyone, but especially feminists, must always, always, always, be very careful to say "some men" and it's even better if you say "i'm not a feminist or anything, but sometimes it might be true that some men might think about committing violence..."

[EstimatedProphet]

146. That's an amazingly stupid argument

That doesn't even apply here. Don't even begin to say that someone claiming that 99.99% of violence and evil is started by men, is somehow a feminist statement.

Want 2 statements that don't equal? Here's a couple:
"99.99% of all violence and evil are caused by men", and
"I'm not saying anything anti-male! I'm talking about violence!"

That is bigotry, period. And you only seem to be fooling a couple of people with your argument.

By the way, it's really a shame that you apparently think only some groups of people should get the respect of not being treated rudely. We should all watch what we say to people and be civil in our arguments, but of course there's no need to be when talking about men. Say whatever comes to mind, and if they object to bigoted statements like all violence is because of them, well it's just because they're whiners.

[EstimatedProphet]

144. Actually, I did put at the end that this is a far from complete list

And I am not, and was never, trying to say that most violence throughout history was done by men. That represented about 5 minutes of goofing around with google.

However, let's remember where this started, and the statement that 99.99% of all violence and evil is due to men. a statement which you agreed with, by the way. I'm not trying to put up a case-by-case refutation of that statement, because that's impossible. I simply posted the self-admittedly very incomplete list to point out that that is bullshit. You want to say most? OK, most. I don't argue that at all. You want to say 9,999 in 10,000 transgressions where someone gets hurt and you're out of your mind. the difference is not minimal, or unimportant. It is the difference between an admittedly male-dominated society and paranoid fantasy.

[MindPilot]

33. Yep that's right no woman takes personal responsibility for anything

It's always all the man's fault. :eyes:

[Morgana LaFey]

132. Oh, you poor darling

Whatsamatter, someone got your number and you don't like it? I understand.

[Morgana LaFey]

104. No way mothers can overcome the patriarchal society and its

acculuturation. No way in hell. But nice fucking try. Nice, clever way to avoid taking responsibility for the horrors that MEN and their fucking patriarchy impose on the world. Very fucking clever.

[durrrty libby]

110. I think the violence is so ingrained in society and the world

people are blind to it.

It won't change until men see it and make it change,

which doesn't give much hope

There are some evolved men but they get put down by their peers

A good-guy here got called a "self-loather' by another guy.

So sad

[EstimatedProphet]

111. That's right. I'm acting to keep violence going in the world

I have to be, after all, I'm male, and the odds are only 00.01% that I could be "evolved".

And if that post wasn't a case of self-loathing, then self-loathing doesn't exist. He was blatantly broadbrushing half of humanity as being uncontrollably prone to emotional retardation.

[Morgana LaFey]

130. Yes, you are

If you're not standing up FOR an end to oppression and male violence -- and you clearly aren't -- then you most certainly ARE acting to keep violence going in the world. With your every breath you help perpetuate a patriarchal system that is inherently violent, that exists because of its violence, that in fact glorifies violence and a culture of death.

Yes, you ARE acting to keep violence going in the world. And why would you do that? Because you -- and all other males, esp. white males -- benefit so greatly from it. You also suffer from it, but the little perks you get are just enough to keep you in thrall.

[Morgana LaFey]

129. You're absolutely right --

MEN have to make a difference. And they're not. Not even the so-called "progressive" ones, right here at DU. Oh, there are a few notable exceptions --but JUST a few, and they ARE exceptions.

And I'm really, really, REALLY tired of it while women are DYING each and every day purely because they are women, thanks to sexism and misogyny. Sexism and misogyny right here in the U.S. (incl. right here at DU).

[durrrty libby]

150. Amen to the truth!

[MindPilot]

116. Nice broad-brush insult there.

I'm continually surprised at the level of sexism that's allowed on DU as long as it is directed at men.

[Morgana LaFey]

131. Anti-male bigotry, perhaps, not sexism

I'm not going to let you dilute the reality of sexism and misogyny by claiming that men can be the victims of sexism. Sexism is a SYSTEM of oppression which has been carefully built over millennia to systematically oppress women. Laws, social customs, rules and regulations, symbolism and imagery, etc., all conspire to create a sexist culture and a sexist world -- it's NOT a world where men have any trouble acting as full and equal citizens for no other reason than that they are men. ThAT is what sexism is, and men aren't the targets or victims.

[Solo_in_MD]

142. For many misoandry is tolerated but misogyny is not

[Bake]

30. Wow. I guess we'd better round up all the men for execution.

Boys too, since they're just tiny terrorists waiting for a crime to commit.

On the positive side, within a generation no one will have to worry about global warming.

Bake

[Morgana LaFey]

105. Wouldn't take too much

to convince ME. (See my first post to this thread for further explanation.)

[MindPilot]

119. Here's a woman who would like to see men rounded up and executed

for the crime of owning a penis.

But men are the violent ones. :eyes:

[Morgana LaFey]

128. And here's a man who can't recognize hyperbole

Not at all surprising.

[TransitJohn]

112. 99.9% is bullshit...think about it eom

[WilliamPitt]

7. Kill them all!

Oh, wait...

[durrrty libby]

14. See, even the good ones propose violence as the answer,

even if it is a joke.

[WilliamPitt]

26. Kill me!

Oh, wait...

:P

*teasing*

[Vexatious Ape]

9. And in this case it was religion that gave them

license to kill.

[LanternWaste]

35. Or an interpretation of a particular religion...

Or an interpretation of a particular religion...

[porphyrian]

15. And women keep choosing the worst of us to sleep with. - n/t

[Dhalgren]

16. You mean the ones who are actually allowed to choose...

:eyes:

[porphyrian]

18. Yes, meaning most women in Western nations. - n/t

[MindPilot]

19. Kind of a sweeping generalization don't ya think?

Next time you need a plumber, a mechanic or someone to carry something heavy just remember there is a 99.9% chance that person will be a man.

[Dhalgren]

23. Just because we can be good with our hands and can sometimes

lift heavy loads does not alter the fact that most men are adolescent brutes, who never develop emotionally or relationally past puberty. Men have very little, as a group, to point to as exemplars of our humanity...

[EstimatedProphet]

34. Wow. Self-loathe much?

[durrrty libby]

46. Actually it is not self-loathing at all. It takes an extremely

aware, honest and evolved man to be where he is

If more men were like him, violence and crime would go way down

The world would be a better place

[EstimatedProphet]

49. Really? so if more men admitted that they are inferior because of their sex

The world would be a better place.

[durrrty libby]

56. No, but if more men lived an honorable and ethical life, mankind

would reap the benefits

[EstimatedProphet]

60. I agree with that

But it applies to women too. It applies to everyone.

See, that's a reasonable statement. If all of us lived more honorable, ethical lives, we would all benefit.

There's a BIG difference between that and saying that 99.99% of all violence is caused by men.

[JVS]

61. not violence, evil

[LanternWaste]

39. Actually, that seems an apt description of all humanity,

Actually, that seems an apt description of all humanity, regardless of gender...

[Odin2005]

64. "most men are adolescent brutes" Bullshit!

:grr:

[JVS]

68. Calling us brutes! We ought to rough him up!

;-)

[Jamastiene]

124. Thank you for being a real man.

It's nice to hear from a man who is evolved enough to know that a lot of other men are violent and get away with it all too often. It's a nice contrast to the misogynists who will not listen to reason. I pity their mothers if that's how they are when someone tries to teach them anything enlightening.

It's nice to know that there are real men who will discuss this on an adult level. Thank you.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

154. Oh, please.

"Most men are adolescent brutes"? :eyes:

[RetroLounge]

164. "does not alter the fact that most men are adolescent brutes"

Oh, whatever.

See, now, I will help you in your mistaken ways...

"does not alter MY OPINION that most men are adolescent brutes"

See the difference. Calling it a fact does not make it so.

RL

[durrrty libby]

38. Not sweeping at all

I didn't say 99.9% of men were violent. I said 99.9% of the violence is committed by men

There is a difference, and I am talking about word-wide, not just here in the US

[EstimatedProphet]

42. The hell that isn't sweeping

Prove it.

On edit: this is proving it-
Show any kind of reliable source which states that violent crime is caused by men 9,999 times out of 10,000 and only once out of that 10,000.

[JVS]

48. empiricism is probably some kind of patriarchal oppression, so no proof for you

[EstimatedProphet]

50. Those damned violent male statistics again!

[MindPilot]

58. No you didn't say that.

You said "Men cause 99.9% of the evil, violence and crimes in the world"

And anyway you cut it, that is as much a bigoted statement as saying "all mexicans are lazy" or "all muslims are terrorists".

Do you really think that leaving out one tenth of one percent makes your statement any less of an insult to half the population?

[Morgana LaFey]

108. You can try to pick the accusation apart on the basis that the

numbers are incorrect, but that doesn't change the reality. A little hyperbole is warranted, I think. The vast majority of ALL violence, and war and oppression IS absolutely, positively caused by men and ANY man who doesn't acknowledge that is an ass, and apologist for violence, and an enabler for the patriarchal status quo where women can be kidnapped, sexually assaulted, murdered, and oppressed in a thousand other ways with fucking impunity.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jamastiene]

123. Like your statement is not sexist in and of itself.

You assume women cannot do any of the things you listed. That is sexism personified. Either play right or get out of the sandbox with your childishness.

[JVS]

31. nice bigotry there

[durrrty libby]

41. Reality is not bigotry

[EstimatedProphet]

67. Reality is not represented by anything you've posted either

Back up your statements with a credible source, or accept the consequences of people calling you on them.

[KaptBunnyPants]

66. Well, men have all the power, so men make all the decisions.

In that respect you may be right. However, I suspect if women ever were given the ability to hurt large numbers of people, they would do it with just as much glee as any man would.

[leeroysphitz]

75. How does it feel to be just another bigot?

Just wondering.

Edited to say welcome to ignoreville Population: YOU

[piedmont]

118. If you had said 86% and backed it up with DoJ statistics I might agree with you...

but intead you go with 99.9% (with no data) and I think you're full of crap.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vexatious Ape]

8. Good question.

As long as we tolerate the intolerant, I'm guessing a long time.

[Madspirit]

13. Racism is NOT allowed here.

I have lots of Muslim friends. What a stupid generalization. Not all Muslims are terrorists and that kind of speech is NOT allowed here. Differentiate between the fundies and the not fundies...including CHRISTIAN CRAPHEADS...like Phelps and Falwell and Robertson and The Southern Craphead Baptists.
Take your anti-Islam speech to Ann Coulter's or somewhere it's welcome.
Lee

[MindPilot]

27. It's not racism. The poster was talking about religion.

Of course not all muslims are terrorists, and surprisingly not all terrorists are muslim.

But this was an act sanctioned by a religion whose sacred texts commands its adherents to kill anyone who is not part of that religion. The fundamentalists take that seriously. That is a fact, not racism.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. It's bigotry.

Of course, it's also directed at arabs, making it racism along with the religious bigotry.

"surprisingly not all terrorists are muslim."

:eyes:

[MindPilot]

40. Sorry I didn't think the "sarcasm" was necessary...

"Bigotry" is of course the accurate term, but I think it's important to keep race and religion separate otherwise it becomes difficult to critically examine the religion.

[piedmont]

120. How did you read that it was directed at Arabs? Most Muslims are NOT Arab. nt

[Dhalgren]

51. Would you mind citing the verses in the Koran that say what you suggest?

Thanks in advance.

[MindPilot]

62. Here ya go.

Quotes from the Holy Quran, as found at Islamicity.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.39. But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.
2.190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

2.192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

2.216. Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

2.257. Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

3.9. The only religion in the sight of God is Islam.

3.85. If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (their selves in the Hellfire).

3:118. O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

3.141. Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing Those that resist Faith.

3.151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

3.157. And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.

3.158. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! it is unto Allah that ye are brought together.

3.169. Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

4.3. If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

4.14. But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment.

4.15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

4.16. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

4.29. O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!

4.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

4.74. Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

4.76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

4.77. Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!

4.78. "Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" If some good befalls them, they say, "This is from Allah.; but if evil, they say, "This is from thee" (O Prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?

4.79. Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee as an apostle to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness.

4.95. Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

4.101. For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah.s Way;

4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.

5.14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

5.39. But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

5.51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

5.57. O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).

5.64. The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

5.69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

5.73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

5.82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

7.96. If the people of the towns had but believed and feared Allah, We should indeed have opened out to them (All kinds of) blessings from heaven and earth; but they rejected (the truth), and We brought them to book for their misdeeds.

7.97. Did the people of the towns feel secure against the coming of Our wrath by night while they were asleep?

7.98. Or else did they feel secure against its coming in broad daylight while they played about (care-free)?

8.12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

8.13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

8.14. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

8.15. O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

8.16. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

8.17. It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah. when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

8.18. That, and also because Allah is He Who makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the Unbelievers.

8.36. The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;

8.38. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

8.39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

8.41. And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

8.55. For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

8.65. O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

8.67. It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9.6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. And then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

9.23. O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

9.28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean;

9.38. O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.

9.39. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.

9.51. Say: "Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector": and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.

9.60. Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:

9.61. They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).

9.62. (Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.

9.64. Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,-

9.65. To dwell therein for ever: no protector will they find, nor helper.

9.73. (With the result) that Allah has to punish the Hypocrites, men and women, and the Unbelievers, men and women, and Allah turns in Mercy to the Believers, men and women: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

9.111. Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

9.123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

10.4. To Him will be your return- of all of you. The promise of Allah is true and sure. It is He Who beginneth the process of creation, and repeateth it, that He may reward with justice those who believe and work righteousness; but those who reject Him will have draughts of boiling fluids, and a penalty grievous, because they did reject Him.

25.52. Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).

33.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

33.28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.

33.29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

33.30. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

33.119. O ye who believe! Fear Allah and be with those who are true (in word and deed).

33.123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

47.4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

48.29. Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.

54.39. "So taste ye My Wrath and My Warning."

54.40. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

60.4. ... there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone.

66.9. O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed).

72.23. "Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever."

98.6. Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Quran.htm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. And the Bible says a man lived inside a fish.

If you're using anything taken out of a centuries old religous text to discriminate against a billion people, you'd be making a fool out of yourself.

[MindPilot]

69. I'm not discriminating against anyone!! Where the hell are you getting that?

From your ass?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. "surprisingly, not all terrorists are muslim."

That's a bit like saying "surprisingly, not everybody with the AIDS is a queer."

or "surprisingly, not everybody who rapes a white woman is a black man."

or "surprisingly, not all money-grubbing bankers are Jews."

Amd then there's this:

"But this was an act sanctioned by a religion whose sacred texts commands its adherents to kill anyone who is not part of that religion."

Muslim sacred texts say that to kill one person is to kill all mankind.

This murder is most certainly not sanctioned by Islam.

[MindPilot]

73. See post 62

[Dhalgren]

126. Nice try, but no cigar.

Show me where it says what you wrote -

"But this was an act sanctioned by a religion whose sacred texts commands its adherents to kill anyone who is not part of that religion."

Nowhere in all of the obfuscating verses that you put forward does it say anything like "kill everyone who is not part of your religion" Basically, you lied. The Koran does not say that. But thanks for spreading RW hate thought...

[Name removed]

57. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bake]

109. Anti-half-the-population of the earth speech, however, is welcome.

Because that's what I'm seeing on this thread. And that bullshit ought to be banned and the purveyors tombstoned.

Bake

[MindPilot]

122. Amazing isn't it?

I'm continually surprised at the level of sexism that's allowed on DU as long as it is directed at men.

[WilliamPitt]

28. Wow.

Onward Christian Soldiers.

:puke:

[EstimatedProphet]

36. The "darkness that is Islam?"

I swear, this thread reads like it's intended to be a voodoo doll.

[JVS]

37. cultures don't change by decree. It takes time and struggle

[Cults4Bush]

45. flipping you a big ol' bird

sickening... and on par with those you hate so much... maybe we should just kill 'em all??

If you want to make a point about the pitfalls of organized religion and the blights it leaves on humanity in general thats fine (many will argue the good things a spiritual faith if not organized religion can bring with you), but to single out this particular religion reeks of bigotry and I could give a flying fuck or a walking piss who agrees with you.

BIGOTRY!

[KingFlorez]

74. They are still religious conservatives regardless of what their religion is

It's not hard to understand that.

[Vexatious Ape]

156. You're right.

As a liberal/lefty/democrat I can't understand why other liberals have such a hard time with that. All religious conservatives, Christian, Islamic or whatever are the bane of civilization.

[rockymountaindem]

90. Um, wow.

Not cool.

[Madspirit]

11. k&r...n/t

[Dhalgren]

20. All of the patriarchal religions have one ultimate, logical outcome:

the abject subjugation of women. This "sharia" extremism is only that - the extreme terminus of the patriarchal religion. Judaism and Christianity are just as patriarchal and can and have and will show extremes as outrageous as this. The one thing that this sorry, bitter, heart-rending episode reveals, however, is the strength, courage, determination, passion, and hope displayed by these brave women, but that is relatively common place, isn't it?

[ValiantBlue]

81. You are correct that Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are

Patriarchal religions. But I am not convinced they were set out to be patriarchal at the start of these three religious movements. They ended up being patriarchal becuase men were in power though.

What I do not understand about Islam is that the Great Prophet's first wife was unique. She was older than him, she was a widow, she had lots of wealth, and (here is something that sticks out like a sore thumb)most importantly she was a business woman. Pretty rare given that time in the world where men were in power. The Great Prophet had great respect for her and looked to her for wisdom, guidance, and love.

Fast foward hundreds of years later and it baffles me how women are looked down upon in many Islamic based societies and yet they model their lives after the Great Prophet? :shrug:

[Dhalgren]

160. Good points and interesting observations.

One of the saddest issues to back over the history of human-kind and contemplate is the degradation of spirituality that has occurred. We could talk for hours discussing the whys and the wherefores, but the fact itself is certainly depressing.

And welcome to DU! Don't let the posts on this thread discourage you, most here are very civil (usually)... :hi:

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

24. but but but the USA has made Afghanistan SO MUCH BETTER!!! n/t

[AuntPatsy]

43. More proof that religious zeolouts are dangerous as if we needed anymore proof.

[EstimatedProphet]

53. Now there's a statement I'll agree with

[MindPilot]

71. That's for damn sure!!

but around here any criticism of any religion is met with accusations of bigotry.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. In GD, there's a thread about three American men...

beating a gay man to "the point of disfigurement."

Why don't you go over there and disparage christianity?

[MindPilot]

77. Sure why not?

Since it is fundamentalist Christians like Fred Phelps who encourage that sort of behavior by deriving from their sacred texts, then that would be appropriate.

As the rules say, if you can't handle and open and empirical discussion about religion, then get the fuck out of the thread.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. Hey, if you can't talk about extremeism...

without disparaging all of Islam and a billion muslims, then get the fuck out of... well... everywhere.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. Awww

:nopity:

You can dish it out to a whole religion, but you can't take it?

[MindPilot]

89. Hey do you want to to fuck up your god once I'm done with Allah?

why you go hide in a corner and pray or something?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. I'm an atheist.

But I'm not insecure about it, so I don't have to feel better about myself by disparaging religious people.

[MindPilot]

95. You may be a non-believer

But you are still pretty good at making false accusations.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. There's the pot calling the kettle black.

Were you being sarcastic about this too?

"But this was an act sanctioned by a religion whose sacred texts commands its adherents to kill anyone who is not part of that religion."

[MindPilot]

102. There's just no talking to you is there?

I don't believe you are an Atheist because you simply refuse to deal with facts. That is a trait of religious fundamentalists.

What part of fundamentalist interpretation of religious texts do you not get?

The fervor with which you defend Islam could only mean you are one of them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. You don't believe I'm an atheist?

:rofl:

Is it a trait for fundamentalist muslims to go around pretending to be atheists?

:spray:

[durrrty libby]

80. How awful. I wonder how often a bunch of women

beat the crap out of another woman for being a lesbian?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

82. still off on that tangent, eh?

Didn't embarass yourself enough?

[durrrty libby]

83. Not embarrassed at all. Don't want to answer the question, huh?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. I don't know the answer to your question.

Maybe you could ask this lady:

[durrrty libby]

98. Did she beat the hell out of someone?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

107. I don't know.

But she's pretty evil.

[Morgana LaFey]

137. No, terribly misguded, not evil.

Just like the sexist men at DU are terribly misguided -- and very, very self-serving -- but not evil. If you think this child is evil, then you must also denounce sexists in the same vein.

Unless, of course, you support sexism. Or merely don't find it as objectionable (which is sexist in and of itself).

[Morgana LaFey]

136. That's a child, of unknown sex. nt

[JVS]

86. Or how often they pick on each other until one develops an eating disorder or something

[durrrty libby]

92. Yes indeed, Let us compare beating someone to a pulp to

"picking" on someone.


So very telling

[JVS]

94. Oh, so inducing a life-threatening mental illness is incomparable with a beating?

Way to belittle one of the biggest problems facing adolescent girls!

[durrrty libby]

99. Seek help

[JVS]

101. take your own advice

The person who holds 52% of the population guilty for only .1% of the evil in the world is not one to judge others' sanity.

[Morgana LaFey]

139. And what can we say of someone who can't recognize hyperbole

when he sees it? Hmmm???

[JVS]

161. Hyperbole or Bullshit?

Don't bother answer. I'm putting you on ignore, because I never find your contributions to discussion either interesting, informative, or even amusing.

[Morgana LaFey]

166. As if I mind....

[Morgana LaFey]

138. Eating disorders aren't usually due to others' picking on one

They are quite complicated and involved, but not usually caused by peer pressure or meanness.

It's pretty ugly -- and sexist to boot -- to blame the problem of eating disorders among young women to OTHER YOUNG WOMEN.

[JVS]

162. My point is that women do bad things too, and to each other.

[Morgana LaFey]

167. If that was your point, why go so far out of your way to obscure it?

That was a "fur piece" to go to NOT make the point you now claim you were trying to make.

[HardRocker05]

159. uh, anorexia is often caused by woman's position in our society as a sex object, and hence the imper

imperative to be sexually attractive to men, over and above any worth that comes from within a woman. and yes, women can be very nasty at enforcing this standard of worth, but they did not create it. sadly, they don't seem to have the where-with-all to resist this, and establish their own, more healthy standards of female beauty and value.

[JVS]

163. I'll give that men are not without blame.

I was simply putting up a counter-example to other poster's deleted claim that almost all evil in the world comes from men. There is plenty of blame to go around.

[EstimatedProphet]

100. According to you, only once out of 10,000 times

Just like ALL violence.

[durrrty libby]

114. You have things mixed up a little

I said "Men cause 99.9% of the evil, violence and crimes in the world"


That is not the same as your interpretation of"According to you, only once out of 10,000 times
Posted by EstimatedProphet


Just like ALL violence."


And you know it is pretty darn close. But I am sorry you missed the point

Here is a starting point to figure out if I'm right

Count each one of the people killed in the Holocaust as one violent act committed by a man

then continue on in history, before and after that included. Don't forget Darfur

Let me know what you come up with. If I'm off by a couple of percentage points, I'll be happy to record that

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

115. The holocaust was committed by a man?

Seems to me, there's plenty of blame to go around.

[Morgana LaFey]

171. self delete

[EstimatedProphet]

121. The fact that you think this is a legitimate point is truly frightening

That is by far the most asinine, bumbling, bigoted "argument" I have ever seen. It isn't even remotely connected to reality. It's so bad, it's not even wrong.

Do you think the Germans didn't have women prison guards, who were just as gleeful about pushing little Jewish children into the ovens?

Ever hear of Ilse Koch?

Ever hear of the Russian women that joined the army and fought the Germans? I guess they don't count. They weren't violent because they fought men.

Really, feel free to keep posting stupid laughable bigoted arguments that make you look paranoid. The true point here is that (if you really do believe what you say) there is professional psychological help which will help you see reality.

[durrrty libby]

125. Oh get over yourself denial drama queen

[EstimatedProphet]

147. Are you still here?

[Solo_in_MD]

152. Careful, misoandrists are a protected species

[formerrepuke]

76. Apparently, for some extremists, being female is considered un-Islamic...n/t

[maxsolomon]

87. I just read this whole thread

and i hope Mind Pilot has learned to always use the :sarcasm:. if you had, that whole ugly exchange would have been moot.

good info on the Koran, thanks.

[MindPilot]

93. I did apologize for not putting it there--didn't think it was necessary

apparently no-one bothered to notice.

[maxsolomon]

97. not in post 27

i saw the apology 2 posts later, but people are real real literal in these parts.

for instance: fundamentalist monotheism is awesome! :sarcasm:

[AuntPatsy]

133. Wow this thread got ugly real fast, I honestly don't understand what happened?

I didn't see the subject of this thread as a hit towards anyone or anything other than religious zeolotry, I didn't see it as a slam against all of the Muslim world or Christian world or just males or just females, etc, but the very truth of the matter is that such horrors are done in the name of many religiona far too often and until people can deal with that very real fact and quit taking things so personaly that such is a an attempt to malign their own personal belief systems how in the world can the very real truth that religion and politics should NOT be mixed at any time and that no laws should be made based on personal religious beliefs be addressed so that more innocent lives cannot be taken and or destroyed through other means?

Like it or not people, religious belief systems are used to hurt people daily and have been since it was invented and it should not be tolerated any longer and if one gets their little feelings hurt by the truth sorry but that is just too bad, events like the subject in this thread demand this issue be addressed properly and with truth even if it hurts people's feelings, I would much rather hurt someone's feelings that ignore the horrors of what occurred to that woman, how many more innocent people murdered and or lives destroyed in the name of a God will it take to wake people the heck up that the issue cannot be ignored?.

[durrrty libby]

141. Violence committed by men is the #1 problem around the world

Until we do something about that, we are doomed.

[supernova]

145. Poor impulse control

is the way I think of it.

When you talk about crimes and acts of violence committed without thinking. Something in that person doesn't have or never learned how to control himself.

[Morgana LaFey]

170. That's too easy. You're giving them an "out" and an excuse.

When in fact many violent crimes are well-planned out in advance.

[jpgray]

155. Women in power have historically had a vast capacity for violent cruelty

Usually they ordered men to do it. Would you rather it be that way? :shrug:

[Morgana LaFey]

169. That's a function of which women are "allowed" to BE in power

Are you familiar with Phyllis Schlaffly? and these days people like Laura Ingram? Anne Coulter? and other rightwing women? Did you ever wonder how an otherwise very bright woman could become someone who worked AGAINST other women?

I'll tell you how: they are what I call Patriarchy's women.

When I first encountered Phyllis Schlaffly in the 1970s, probalby on the Today show, I absolutely could not believe how this bright woman didn't get it. How, in fact, she could carve out a career for herself while advising all OTHER women to go back home and have more babies and stay home with them until they left home.

It was Jean Shinoda Bolen's book, Goddesses in Every Woman who explained it to me. I should go back and read it again; it's been forever. In a nutshell: they are patriarchy's women. They identify with the father, and see their role as promoting and defending the father's interests.

Those are the women who are "allowed" to be in power. Inasmuch as they identify with the Patriarchy, they will also be no stranger to violence since the Patriarchy is all about violence, uses violence of many different sorts to keep things status quo, keep PEOPLE in place (oppressed).

[Vexatious Ape]

157. You're right

I wasn't slamming all Muslim's or all men--just religious conservatives.

[supernova]

143. Patriarchy run amok

which uses, sadly, a veneer of religion to give it respectability in the cultures that practice it.

But I don't know if it's up to us. We can certainly deal with folks who have these attitudes when they come into our midst, and we would be right to do so.

But the major impetus for change will have to come from the women who live in these communities. I think we would be better served by helping and supporting these women in ways that they say are valuable to them. And no, I don't know what that would be. Possibly things like the microloan programs, education.

edit: Every time I hear one of these stories, it absolutely enrages me. Because as far as I can tell, the woman didn't do anything except breath.

[kineneb]

149. tribalism, not Islam is the problem

I doubt that the area that is modern Afghanistan was any different before the introduction of Islam. The problem is tribalism, and their concept of women as property. Just like the South's laws for slaves, they feel that an educated woman is a threat to their power. Having about half the population subdued by restrictive laws makes the rest of the population that much easier to control.

Islam has nothing to do with the matter.

[Vexatious Ape]

153. I have to disagree.

Yes tribalism must play some part in the backwardness of the killers, but the religious zealotry played an even bigger part. This attitude toward women--not where they belong, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen--is universal among religious fundamentalists.

[HardRocker05]

158. don't you know that civilization itself rests on women being kept as virtual slaves? nt

[BlooInBloo]

168. I wonder if religion has been studied as an epidemiological phenomenon?

[bonito]

172. God by any name is a dick! n/t

Chew on that! Oh yea, I'm not an atheist.