I will not pretend otherwise - This is Our America

[Solly Mack]

"We do not torture."

George W. Bush, President of the United States, November 8, 2005

"His comments followed efforts by Vice President Cheney to lobby lawmakers to exempt the CIA from an amendment that would ban torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners. The exemption would cover the secret prisons."

Q&A: Bush and CIA secret prisons


June 7, 2007
Secret CIA prisons confirmed by Polish and Romanian officials

"The council has also established that within weeks of the 9/11 attacks, Nato signed an agreement with the US that allowed civilian jets used by the CIA during its so-called extraordinary rendition programme to move across member states' airspace."


"None of the prisoners had access to the Red Cross and many were subject to what George Bush has called the CIA's "enhanced" interrogation methods. These included water-boarding which leads detainees to believe they are drowning, which critics have condemned as severe torture."

Waterboarding Historically Controversial - In 1947, the U.S. Called It a War Crime



US called to account for 'disappeared' detainees

"President Bush acknowledged the existence of secret CIA prisons in September last year, but said that they had been emptied and all detainees transferred to the US prison at Guantánamo Bay

If accurate, the report flatly contradicts assurances given by President Bush that the CIA's secret detention programme has been closed down and all the agency's prisoners moved to Guantánamo Bay"

"The report also expresses concern over the fate of Yusuf al-Khalid and Abed al-Khalid, the sons of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. They were taken into custody, aged nine and seven, in September 2002, during an attempt to capture their father. A former detainee says that he saw them in March the following year, around the time their father was captured, in a secret prison where the guards tormented them with insects."


Report: 39 secretly imprisoned by U.S.


Groups list 39 "disappeared" in U.S. war on terror

"Bush said in September there were no prisoners remaining in custody in U.S. secret facilities at that time. But the report said the transfer of Abd al-Hadi al-Iraqi from CIA custody to Guantanamo in April showed the system was still operating."


The Bush administration (and all the rest of the guilty) MUST be held fully accountable for their crimes.

Because this isn't the kind of America I want...

[marmar]

1. Yup.... And people need to step up and deal with that fact, .......

quit holding on to this romanticized version of what this country is, and reclaim it before it's too late. If it's not already too late.....

[Solly Mack]

2. Too many people hoping time will heal this wound - but it won't

The only thing time will do is allow America to be remembered as a country that held their war criminals accountable or let them go free.

[annabanana]

3. Dirty wounds fester and fill with pus and corruption.

They cannot heal until they are clean.

[Solly Mack]

4. Exactly

And the Bush administration is a putrid wound

[Mnemosyne]

5. Not the one I want either, Solly. Our government is a rapidly spreading

plague upon this Earth.

What new and improved corporate product could ever wash this nation clean in the eyes of our brothers and sisters on this small planet.

Funny how just a couple years ago, when the 'n' word, Nazi, was ever stated or implied here at DU, some here were nearly apoplectic about it.

Times sure do change, eh Solly?

Excellent OP.

[Solly Mack]

7. I live in Germany and what is happening in America comes up a lot

and I don't have any answers to the questions I get...

No one is mean about it - just truthful.
... the truth is harsh enough

[Swamp Rat]

9. Sure is.

[Solly Mack]

12. ((((Swamp))))

They don't point fingers - they just don't understand it any better than I do. Sure, people know all the reasons but in the end, those reasons just aren't good enough.

[RagingInMiami]

14. Germany learned a lot from their mistakes

It doesn't look like we're even close to beginning to learn.

[Solly Mack]

18. We have to first admit our mistakes - and our crimes

and America's not big on that

Oh sure, many, many, many years after the fact - when it is too late to really hold anyone accountable - America will offer to apologize....as if that means anything.

[Mnemosyne]

24. It is easier for those outside of a situation to view it

with more clarity. Sadly, too many here do not want clarity of this mess. I think that acquiring clarity is the last thing they want with the nightmare many sense coming down the karmic track.

Acknowledging that anything is wrong here would quash their delusions of the US. Clarity demands action; something not many here are willing to do for their freedom. Self-centered and arrogant with mass doses of superiority complex seem to be the norm.

Please tell those that ask that there are many of us trying here; but our voices apparently aren't loud enough - yet. All I do to help the Cause is done in honor of Sophie Scholl, a White Rose cut down too soon.

What are they seeing the most? Worst? I am very interested to learn.

There may still be hope to save this once great country, but it is fading and the tipping point is close, imo.

Tell them we will keep fighting.

Peace to you, Solly. :)

[Solly Mack]

26. Hi vickiss

Mainly people see us as afraid - and they understand that - but that fear worries them. I think they wish more Americans had a world view instead of just the "sea to shining sea view"...if that makes sense

I sometimes wonder if people would be as alarmed by what is happening in America if it wasn't for the image of America that America fights so hard to show to the world. Our stubborn belief in an America that just doesn't exist. We set ourselves up for the great fall because of our myths and hype..

That if we acknowledged we aren't the nation our carefully cleansed history tells us we are...we'd have a better time changing what's wrong with America.

Maybe Americans and others alike are living with that shadow...America's image.

We're judged by what we're supposed to be and claim to be...and fall so short of...

Even when we talk of fixing America - we fall back on that image that isn't really what we've been

Yet I believe we have so much potential to be a truly decent country... but we are afraid.

Folks know not all Americans accept what is happening - and there's a long view thinking about America from a continent that has seen great nations rise , only to crumble and fall..and other nations,great ones even, that learned to survive with the rest of the world...and not bend it to their will.

I'm rambling...sorry.

[Mnemosyne]

30. I agree the potential is there for a wonderful country,

maybe even similar to the one we apparently deluded ourselves into believing we had, but until the comfort level of many here is harshly disrupted, nothing is going to change. Sadly, I believe that until the 'middle class' is watching their children die of starvation or from infections that have become immune to antibiotics and worse, they will not rise in numbers large enough to do what may become necessary to reinvent this country. :cry:

I am so grateful to be able to connect with others here that can see the runaway train our country has become. I was tired of being called an alarmist. :)

People are afraid. They were motivated to vote for change and nothing much has happened. Many I have spoken with feel that there is nothing they can do now and are struggling so hard just to survive from week to week, there is little energy left. Perhaps that was the plan all along.

I guess we can only do as much as we can and hope others get as angry and motivated as we are and step up to help us save our country.

In Solidarity! :patriot:

And you can ramble to me anytime Solly, I tend to ramble at times myself these days. :hug:

[Octafish]

6. Their America is NAZI. Mine is based on the Constitution of the United States.

Big difference.

Thanks for a great post, Solly Mack.

You got them pegged.

[Solly Mack]

10. I can't help but see how it is us - we - that will pay for their crimes

We will be blamed for it, as Americans.
We will wear the shame, as Americans. I already do...I am an American and my government is doing this...and it doesn't appear that my government has any shame about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. The fisrt step in doing something is seeing the puss

the problem is we do see it, we smell it, we hear the screams, but most folks DON'T care

Anomie, lakc of care, having enough in their tummies, many an explanation, but not unlike Nazi Germany

[Solly Mack]

11. They really don't care

and yes, there are a lot of excuses as to why...and yes, just as you said...not unlike at all.

[RagingInMiami]

13. And it's time to take it back

It's been long overdue

[Solly Mack]

16. I agree - long overdue

[OneBlueSky]

15. but wait . . . it gets worse . . .

consider for a moment how this could easily happen to U.S. citizens (e.g. you, me, our children) right here on American soil . . .

FEMA already has a network of detention camps across the nation . . . Halliburton/KBR are building more . . . Bush has just issued a decree that gives him totalitarian powers in times of crisis or emergency -- as defined by him! . . . completely cutting the legislative and judicial branches out of the picture . . .

he didn't issue this proclamation for an incoming Democratic president . . . if he has his way -- i.e. if Congress doesn't stop him -- there won't BE an incoming president of any kind, because there won't BE an election . . . Bush will effectively make himself president for life . . .

think it can't happen? . . . then you haven't been paying sufficient attention . . .

[Solly Mack]

17. Sure it can happen

America and Americans have no special immunity from a tyrant...no matter what some people tell themselves.

[Karenina]

19. Too many Amis have become tyrants themselves...

BESSERWISSEREI RULES!!!

[Solly Mack]

20. I fear I don't possess the necessary defense mechanisms

to just deny this all away...or pretend it was just an abberation...or that it won't happen again...etc, etc..

It's not that I want to have them - it's just that I'm not going to be able to just move on without my government being held accountable.

So many horrible things throughout America's history - I know, I know... but how did people do it?

I'm having an incredibly hard time with "looking forward" when I know full well that another Bush-league wanna-be tyrant will come along if America doesn't start holding criminal politicians accountable...and I mean really accountable. As in exposing every little horrible detail of their crimes so people can know and then imprisoning them for those crimes.

It just seems pointless to me to pretend America can be anything other than it is right now unless we're willing to put our own war criminals in prison.

[datasuspect]

23. you know how they are testing RFID people tagging?

they're doing it under the guise of hurricane evacuation scenarios for the indigent and people without cars.

if you need to use government provided trasport to evacuate a hurricane area, you will be fitted with an RFID wristband.

katrina was a great boon to the police state.

[zippy890]

21. I am ashamed to be an American

This makes me sick and outraged

time for another donation to amnesty international
http://www.amnestyusa.org/index.html

its the only thing I can think of to do.

[Solly Mack]

22. We're carrying the shame our government refuses to shoulder

How does anyone in government expect anyone to feel good about America when our country is a war crime nation?

[Tsiyu]

25. Tried to R but too late

so :kick: there

[Solly Mack]

27. Thank you,buddyhollysghost

:hi:

[Tsiyu]

28. De nada

i am threadkiller!

unless I kick again.

:kick:

It's tough to read the truth but we must continue to refresh our memories about these people. To continue the fight.

They wear us down until we forget sometimes....:grr:

[Crowdance]

29. Kicking

for the powerful and frightening truth herein.