If America was invaded and occupied would our fighters be called the civil defense or insurgents?

[NNN0LHI]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense

Civil defense

Civil defense, also now often called emergency management, is an effort to prepare civilians for military attack. It uses the principles of emergency operations: prevention, mitigation, preparation, response, or emergency evacuation, and recovery. Programmes of this sort were initially discussed at least as early as the 1920s but it was only after the threat of nuclear weapons became realized that they became widespread. As the intensity of the Cold War waned emphasis shifted from military attack to emergencies and disasters in general. In the context of Civil Defense in the United States this eventually led to the replacement of the United States civil defense with the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In some countries, the all-encompassing nature of civil defense is denoted by using name "total defence" such as the Swedish word totalförsvar. The name suggests committing all resources, hence the term total, of the nation to the defence. It can be compared to total war.

[raccoon]

1. Well, the occupiers would call them "insurgents." nt

[Demeter]

2. GOOD Question! With Today's MSM It's a Tossup

That would certainly reveal "where their loyalties lie"!

[leftofthedial]

3. the occupiers would control the propaganda machine, er, media

so, "insurgents" or worse

[bryant69]

4. Are our fighters killing American Civilians?

Are the Prespetyrian resistors taking the opportunity to settle scores with the Baptists for example? Or the Klan taking the moment, in the middle of all the fighting of our invaders, to execute some blacks?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NNN0LHI]

6. Pentagon says 80% of attacks are against our soldiers

Why the obsession with the 20% of other attacks?

Don

[pampango]

13. Because they have caused thousands of deaths among

Iraqi civilians who have done nothing wrong other than shopping, studying or participating in religious processions.

The majority, maybe the vast majority, of our military's attacks are targeted against "insurgents". That does not mean that I cannot condemn those attacks that are conducted against civilians, even if some of those are accidental.

[tabasco]

7. Riiiight. Americans NEVER kill other Americans.

We are soooo much more civilized than that.

Maybe some civilized country should have invaded during our Civil War and stopped all that bloodshed. Yeah, that would have worked out well.

[bryant69]

15. What a bizarre response.

I'm not sure what point you are tryign to make, but maybe you should not slather on so much Sarcasm and just say it. At any rate, it goes without saying that Americans are good at killing each other off.

Bryant

[unpossibles]

9. the cynic in me says yes, this might just happen

I don't consider it out of the question that some individuals and groups would take advantage of the chaos, sadly. Heck, some of them do it already.

[pampango]

18. The French and Dutch got through the German occupation

without their civilians turning on each other. They targeted perceived collaborators, but that was all.

Those who think that Americans are worse than the French and Dutch are welcome to their beliefs, but I prefer to live in my dreamland in which individual Americans are not worse than individual French and Dutch citizens.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. it depends on who wins and gets to write the history.

if we lost, we would be sectarian insurgents. If we won, we'd be brave heroes defending our nation from attack.

[Kagemusha]

8. They'd be called revolutionaries. There is a small precedent for this

Historically, I mean.

[KansDem]

10. One of the reasons I got my kid out of Boy Scouts.

My son was 8 at the time and involved in his first year of Boy Scouts. We were attending a pack meeting when the leader was talking about the American flag. O.K. by me as he was touching on the "do's" and "don'ts" of how to fly and treat the flag.

Then he talked about how the flag is flown on the right fender of cars carrying high-ranking American officials. Hmmm, I thought to myself: this is interesting as I wasn't aware of this rule myserlf (you can see I don't ride much with high-ranking American officials). Well, the leader when on to describe an incident in Iraq in which "terrorists" tried to run an American checkpoint by posing as American officials, complete with flag on the fender of their car, but the US soldiers saw that the flag was on the left front fender and knew the car was bogus.

Perhaps I'm being too persnickety, but I thought the word "terrorists" was assuming too much. We don't know if they really are "terrorists." They could have been "freedom fighters" trying to rid their homeland of American occupiers.

But my son knows better...

[DavidDvorkin]

11. Patriots!

Defenders of Liberty! Heroes! Demigods!

[zbdent]

12. I don't know ... let's ask the guy who made "Red Dawn"

[jobycom]

14. More interesting question to me is what we would call

those who allied with the occupiers. Patriots? Americans? Traitors? Would our "insurgent freedom-fighting civil defending Resistance" attack and kill them for collaborating? And which group would be the Resistance? Would it be the chickenhawk Repubs who screamed for Hussein's blood and are now wanting to nuke all Iraqi "insurgents?" My guess is they'd be the first to surrender.

[Jack Rabbit]

16. I'm sure the occupying force would call us "terrorists"

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

Everybody know how to make Molotov cocktails? How about an IED?

[karynnj]

17. They'd be called patriots

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. Not if they blew up truck bombs at St Patrick's Cathedral during serivices

Or sent mortor rounds into farmers markets on Sundays while ordinary families were present with their kids shopping for food for the week. And not if the invasion was used as a pretext to clear out some neighborhoods of Jewish families, by dumping dead bodies of local jews in empty lots with electric drill holes in their heads. Not all "insurgents" or "civil defence workers" start out equal in my eyes, and I think most Americans would agree with me, even if the U.S. were being occupied by foreign forces. Sometimes a terrorist really is a terrorist no matter how noble in theory the motivation for their actions might be.

[NNN0LHI]

20. Where do you suppose all those terra-ists are getting the Iraqi police and army uniforms from?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=HPIA%2CHPIA%3A2006-34%2CHPIA%3Aen&q=iraq%2Bdressed+in+police+uniforms&btnG=Search

Results 1 - 10 of about 732,000 for iraq+dressed in police uniforms. (0.10 seconds)

In Brazen Roundup, 56 Vanish From Baghdad - washingtonpost.comBut Shamaa walked on, right into a swift, coordinated operation unfolding within sight of Iraq's Ministry of Justice. Gunmen in police uniforms and ski ...
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/05/AR2006060500482.html - Similar pages

Gunmen in Police Uniforms Kidnap 5 British Civilians - New York TimesGunmen wearing police commando uniforms abducted five British civilians from a Finance Ministry complex in Iraq, British officials said.
www.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/world/middleeast/30iraq.html - Similar pages

swissinfo - Gunmen kill brother of Iraq's VPIraqi police said gunmen driving in cars similar to those used by Interior Ministry ... Heavily armed militias, many often dressed in camouflage uniforms, ...
www.swissinfo.org/eng/international/ticker/detail/Gunmen_kill_brother_of_Iraq_s_VP.html?siteSect=143&... - 49k - Cached - Similar pages

Iraq executes 13 convicted of murder - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.comIraq hanged three people convicted of killing police officers on Sept. ... 11, gunmen in Iraqi army uniforms stole $1 million from a bank truck. ...
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5 Britons kidnapped; 10 GIs killed5 Britons kidnapped; 10 GIs killedMay 30 - Gunmen in police uniforms and driving vehicles used by security forces kidnapped five Britons from an Iraqi Finance Ministry office Tuesday. ...
usatoday.feedroom.com/?fr_story=FEEDROOM196912&rf=sitemap - Similar pages

Men dressed as Iraqi police kidnap five Britons | NEWS.com.auGUNMEN wearing Iraqi police uniforms have kidnapped five Britons - a computer expert and his four ... Men dressed as Iraqi police kidnap five Britons ...
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Gunmen in Police Uniforms Kidnap Five British CiviliansBaghdad - Gunmen wearing police commando uniforms abducted five British civilians from a ... in Baghdad by militiamen dressed in police commando uniforms. ...
www.truthout.org/docs_2006/053007O.shtml - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

Schneier on Security: New Harder-to-Counterfeit Iraqi Police UniformsOr when gunmen dressed in police uniforms execute the brother of Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi. Posted on October 11, 2006 at 12:28 PM ...
www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/10/new_hardertocou_1.html - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

NPR : Iraq Probes Reports of Police Death SquadsThe Iraqi Interior Ministry is investigating the case of 22 men dressed in Iraqi police commando uniforms and holding a Sunni prisoner who said they were ...
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5219014 - Similar pages

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq 'death squad caught in act'The 22 interior ministry traffic policemen, dressed in police commando uniforms, were arrested in late January at an Iraqi army checkpoint in northern ...
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4719252.stm - 45k - Cached - Similar pages


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=HPIA%2CHPIA%3A2006-34%2CHPIA%3Aen&q=iraq%2Bdressed+in+army+uniforms&btnG=Search

Results 1 - 10 of about 887,000 for iraq+dressed in army uniforms. (0.34 seconds)

ABC News: Gunmen Dressed As Iraqi Soldiers Kill 15Gunmen Dressed As Iraqi Soldiers Kill 15. ... Gunmen Wearing Iraqi Army Uniforms Kill 15 in Kurdish Shiite Village; U.S. Soldier Killed ...
abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3192027 - Jun 6, 2007 - Similar pages

Breaking: Body Dressed in US Military Uniform Found South of ...Breaking: Body Dressed in US Military Uniform Found South of Baghdad ... Iraqi police found the body of a man who was wearing what appeared to be a U.S. ...
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Iran Alleges U.S. Role in Kidnap Of Embassy Official in Baghdad ...6 -- Iranian officials in Iraq on Tuesday accused US forces of collaborating with ... The detained Iraqis, who wore military uniforms and carried military ...
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/06/AR2007020600186.html - Similar pages

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BlogRunner: Iraqi Police: Body in U.S. Uniform Found in RiverIraqi police pulled the body of what they said was a Western-looking man apparently dressed in U.S. military uniform from a river south of Baghdad Wednesday ...
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< More results from www.blogrunner.com >

Schneier on Security: Iraqi Gunmen Dressing Up in American ...I guess that anyone dressed like a US soldier and acting like a US soldier was not subject to the .... One of my favorites is a homemade U.S. army uniform. ...
www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/01/iraqi_gunmen_dr.html - 49k - Cached - Similar pages

FOXNews.com - Five U.S. Troops Killed; Iraqi Officials Say Gunmen ...... found one of the SUVs with the three dead bodies dressed in military uniforms. ... A homicide car bomber targeting an Iraqi army patrol killed one woman ...
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Gunmen Dressed As Iraqi Soldiers Kill 15Gunmen Dressed As Iraqi Soldiers Kill 15. NewsMax.com Wires ... BAGHDAD -- Gunmen wearing Iraqi army uniforms shot and killed 15 men Saturday in a Kurdish ...
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Iraqi Mojo: Gunmen dressed as Iraqi soldiers kill 15 Fayli KurdsGunmen dressed as Iraqi soldiers kill 15 BAGHDAD - Gunmen wearing Iraqi army uniforms shot and killed 15 men Saturday in a Kurdish Shiite village northeast ...
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Iraq executes 13 convicted of murder - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.comOn Dec. 11, gunmen in Iraqi army uniforms stole $1 million from a bank truck. Iraq has seen much other spectacular bank robberies in recent years. ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16280519/ - 51k - Cached - Similar pages

[Oak2004]

21. Could it be that they *are* the Iraqi police??

Oh, but that couldn't be true! Our Commander in Chief is helping the Iraqis to "stand up" by giving the army and police weapons and training -- they wouldn't turn against their government or against us. and surely our responsible major media would tell us if the actual Iraqi police were involved in any of this.

No, those uniforms must all be fakes. Fakes, I say!

:sarcasm:

[Tom Rinaldo]

22. This has nothing to do with my point

I am not defending the U.S. invasion of Iraq, or all U.S. activities inside of Iraq. If we return to the original premise of this thread, if the U.S. were occupied by a foreign power and some Americans acted in league with that foreign power, accepting official looking uniforms and the like from them so they could get away with "terra-ist" behavior, and then went on to kidnap and torture people who most Americans would consider to be innocent civilians, and if they also blew up bombs at funerals of innocent victims, and at random Church services, most Americans would not look favorably upon those who engaged in that behavior. They would not be thought of as patriots.

Furthermore, I doubt that you are making the case that the only people inside of Iraq who are motivated to fight against the current government that has been installed inside Iraq are those who are in league with American agents, correct? Let's accept as true, for arguments sake, that some American agents are willing to supply Iraq uniforms to some so called "terra-ists" for whatever evil reasons. Even granted that for arguments sake, do you think that would logically prove that the only people inside Iraq who are willing to engage in "terra-ist" behavior are those who are supported by Americans? That flies in the face of both logic and facts.

Being an anti-imperialist leftist does not require one to put blinders on about the full range of human and inhuman activities that take place throughout the world, including some that do not have as their origin a reaction to something terrible done by America. Other nationalities are perfectly capable of generating their own greedy and/or fanatical and/or sadistic elements all on their own, it isn't a trait unique to America, and all conflicts in the world would not instantly disappear if America were wiped off the face of the Earth tomorrow. Conquests, religious zealotry, and inhumanity towards fellow human beings existed long before America and will likely exist long after America.

I am not one saying that Americans are fundementally incapable of acting just as horribly as anyone else, but I sure won't say the opposite either.

[NNN0LHI]

28. Bush installed a terra-ist as Iraq's Prime Minister

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_25/b3888080_mz015.htm

<snip>Although trained as a neurologist, Allawi honed his tough-guy image through brutal clashes with the Saddam regime. In 1978, he was seriously wounded by an ax-wielding assailant, likely sent by Saddam, who broke into his London home. In the mid-'90s, Allawi's group worked with the CIA to establish a network of recruits inside Iraq who planned to bomb radio stations and rail lines. But Saddam uncovered and executed dozens of the rebels, dealing the INA a huge setback.


That doesn't have anything to do with all this either I reckon.

Don

[Tom Rinaldo]

30. Don, you are taking this as an argument about U.S. actions regarding Iraq

It isn't. There are a lot of brutal people in the world, some of them are Americans, some of them aren't. Since I live in the United States, I have always tried to do my part to oppose brutal Americans. Nowhere, on this thread or anywhere else, have I defended Bush or his invasion of Iraq, neither his motivation nor his actions. But as a human being my disgust is not limited to those who use brutality in service to American ends. I will never be party to a glorification of all of Iraq's "insurgents", because they certainly are not all worthy of it. That is really my only point in this discussion. Sometime I think we on the left slip dangerously toward making that error. Not all evil in the world comes with American sponsorship, though some certainly does.

[NNN0LHI]

32. The Army initially blamed the assault on insurgents...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-09-12-soldier-anguish_x.htm

Soldier describes anguish in revealing murder allegations

On a night in June, Pfc. Justin Watt lay in his cot in Iraq, anguishing over whether to tell Army investigators that he suspected soldiers from his own platoon had raped a 14-year-old girl and then killed her and her family. snip

On March 12, in the midst of the platoon's hard-luck tour, the bodies of Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, 14; her 5-year-old sister, Hadeel; their mother, Fikhriya Taha; and their father, Qassim Hamza, were found in their Mahmoudiya home. The Army initially blamed the assault on insurgents.


These kind of incidents really complicate things for me. I don't know what to believe any more.

Don

[frylock]

23. and the insurgents DID NOT learn those tactics from john negroponte..

so stop saying that.

[ContraBass Black]

24. They'd be called something more impressive.

The Ascendant Warriors, the Patriot Mass Uprising, something like that.

[BuyingThyme]

25. Fighters would be called Democrats. The new "American" Army would be called Republics.

[krispos42]

26. Insurgents, resistance fighters, partisans, freedom fighters

Sons of Liberty, guerillas

There's probably a whole smorgasboard of names to choose from.

[BlooInBloo]

27. If they got rid of gw, we might greet them with flowers.

[Aristus]

29. "WOLVERINES!"

Stupid fucking movie.

[EFerrari]

31. We would be called the savages and our benevolent civilizers

would do their best to bring us into the modern world . . . oops.