Brief history of cock fighting in Puerto Rico (U.S. Territory)

[Colobo]

I hope this can bring some light on the misunderstood tradition of cock fighting. History and regulations in other Latin American countries are quite similar.

Origins:
The "sport of beaks and spurs" arrived to Puerto Rico and the rest of the Hispanic Caribbean thanks to the Spanish colonizers, and has since been a Puerto Rican tradition. Cock fights have taken place in the island since the 16th century, but it wasn't until 1770 that it became an official, regulated sport thanks to a law signed by Spanish governor Don Miguel de Muesas.

However, when the Americans invaded the island in 1898, they prohibited the sport, but it was still practiced ilegally. In 1933, American governor Roberto Gore declared cock fights a legal activity again, thanks to the intervention of local congressman and passionate advocate of horse racing and cock fights Rafael Martínez Nadal.

Cockfighting in the island today:

Today, Puerto Rico is one of the countries in which cock fighting is practiced the most. There are about 115 legal cockfighting centers around the island, divided in the following categories: "touristic", "first special", "first class" and "second class". In the "touristic" centers, there are not betting limits, and the front row seats are $25. In "first specials" there are no betting limits as well, but the front row seats are $15. In both of them fights are celebrated 7 days a week. On the other two centers, front row prices are lower, fights can't be celebrated every day and there are some established betting limits.

Cock fights are regulated by the Department of Recreation and Sports. The cock fighting industry is responsible for about 20,000 direct and indirect jobs. Here is the official website of the "Club Gallístico de Puerto Rico" (Cockfighting Club of Puerto Rico) in English. Feel free to check it out:


http://www.clubgallisticopr.com/introb.html
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If anybody has questions, any kind of questions about the fights themselves, why people do it, if there are opponents, what ever, go ahead and ask. My intention is to create a dialogue in which the opponents of these activities at least understand why are they important in other cultures, even inside American territories.

I know the debate got quite heated in the other "Animal Cruelty" post, but hopefully we'll be able to debate and achieve some understanding here without getting too carried away.

[libnnc]

1. It's still a bloody sport.

It turns my stomach.

[Colobo]

2. It's ok. Thanks for your comment. I hope you found this informative, at least.

[jilln]

3. Tradition is not an excuse for bad behavior.

Which cockfighting obviously is.

And that's why it's illegal in this country.

I can't believe any "progressive" could defend such a defenseless practice.

I am disgusted.

[Colobo]

4. Thanks for your comments. I'll address them in a minute.

[Matariki]

5. Okay, question

You alluded to the importance of the sport to the culture and in the other thread referred to it as something of 'honor'. Can you be more specific about that?

I'm interested in the sort of 'back story' of bull fighting. It has a mythic basis really, going back to ancient Greece. Just as the annual bull run in Spain does. Does cockfighting have this sort of mythic 'back story' as well?

[Colobo]

91. Well, here's my answer

I don't know if there is any mythical background to cock fighting, but in terms of the idea of "honor", it comes from the Spanish Middle Ages (it lives through the Renaissance, the Baroque and even though the Enlightenment and still has importance today), in which the concept of "honor" pretty much rules all aspects of Spanish life.

Roosters are seen as honorable warriors, because they fight until the end in even terms. The idea of Spanish "bravado" is as strong as ever, because of the victory over the Moors in 1492 and their subsequent victories against the different Native empires in (Latin) American soil. Fighting roosters become a form of entertainment that reflected the values cherished by Spanish men. Because of that, it was supposed to be a "clean" activity in terms of rigging; if it represents honor, then there is usually no space for "dirty tricks" or unpaid bets: Only "honorable gentlemen" deal with the "honorable fighting roosters".

Later on, it became a way to earn revenue and to control the population. To keep the masses of freed slaves, Natives and poor Spanish peasants happy with the colonial system, gambling was encouraged and regulated by the state, selling cockfights as a "legit, honorable" way to gamble. The masses then saw cockfighting as a safe, "honorable" and fair way to earn money in a system where they had little or no chance to do so (supposedly, roosters always fight on even terms). For instance, cock fighting became a game/sport for the masses, and all the symbolic significance of it was adopted by them. The rooster quickly became a metaphor of bravery, of honor, of respect, of decency, of masculinity, of power.

After independence, cock fighting remained being a strong economic and cultural activity, now reinforced by the idea of military victory over the Spanish people (symbol of national pride). The rooster solidifies its status as a symbol that embodies every positive value of the new republics, and at the same time gave life to the myth of the "honorable colonial past".

It much more complex than that, but there you have an idea.

[Matariki]

136. Thanks. Interesting. n/t

[Wiley50]

6. Do You Have No Respect For The Law?

It is illegal everywhere else in the US

If you don't want to go to jail
Don't break the law

You've said it yourself quite enough

[Matariki]

7. He's talking about Puerto Rico - where it's legal.

[libnnc]

8. Now he did say that very thing, didn't he?

Laws are put in place for a reason. Don't break them.

WCWOBO
Which Cock Would Obama Bet On?

[Colobo]

10. I don't break the law neither here nor there. :)

[peacebaby3]

138. WCWOBO! As a supporter of Obama, that is hilarious! I'm going to guess he

would bet on his own! :evilgrin: Maybe that should be a bumper sticker?!?!

[Colobo]

9. It's legal in my country, and that's what my post is referring to.

[libnnc]

11. are you not in the US?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Did you not read the OP?

[libnnc]

13. No, I did not.

Nor do I plan to.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Well then why are you even in this thread?

[libnnc]

16. Because I find his defense of this "sport" lame.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. I find your defense of insurance fraud despicable.

What?

[libnnc]

20. I am referencing his posts in another thread

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. So am I.

I just haven't read that thread wherein you encourage insurance fraud.

[libnnc]

25. No you're being obtuse. 'Cause that's your "thing"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. You're calling ME obtuse?

You didn't even read the OP!

:rofl:

[libnnc]

33. Is cockfighting legal in the continental US?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. According to my map, Louisiana and D.C. are on the continental U.S.

Yes.

But apparently some maps may differ.

[libnnc]

46. It's legal in Louisiana and DC?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Check that, Louisiana, but not D.C.

Also not a felony in several more states.

[libnnc]

53. But it is illegal. Felony or no.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Not in Puerto Rico or Louisiana it's not.

Both being in the U.S., btw.

[libnnc]

58. self delete you're not worth it

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. Also self deleted.

You know, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble by reading.

[libnnc]

65. It doesn't change my opinion

Cockfighting is barbaric and inhumane.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. and legal.

:shrug:

[jilln]

71. Bush doing recess appointments is also legal.

Cutting off thieves' hands is legal in some places.

Both indefensible.

You need a better argument if that's all you got.

[libnnc]

72. Not in my state.

WASHINGTON— Wayne Pacelle, president and CEO of The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), today praised North Carolina Governor Michael Easley for signing into law H. 888. Gov. Easley signed the bill, which upgrades the penalty for cockfighting from a misdemeanor to a Class I felony, yesterday.

Pacelle also praised the leadership efforts of Representative Cary Allred who skillfully shepherded the bill to passage, and other members of the North Carolina Senate and House who approved the bill in mid-August

http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/press_releases/north_carolina_governor_easley_signs_bill_to_make_cockfighting_a_felony_.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. But it is in your country.

:shrug:

[Matariki]

56. Also New Mexico

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-01-22-cockfighting_x.htm

[Wiley50]

I Love It just like starting an avalanche n/t

[Colobo]

15. Read the OP; it's not advocating cock fighting, it just gives you info about it.

[libnnc]

19. I've read your remarks in the other thread

Cock fighting is a blood sport that I find disgusting and inhumane. I have read about it's cultural importance in Latin America. That doesn't make it any less horrid in my opinion.

There are people who would defend female genital mutilation as a matter of cultural heritage too.

[bicentennial_baby]

49. ...

:yourock:

[Midlodemocrat]

128. .

:applause:

[LeftyMom]

18. What country?

Upthread you're talking about Puerto Rico, which is not a country and doesn't want to be one, since sucking off the federal teat is more profitable. Cockfighting is illegal in most of the US and interstate transfer of cockfighting material is illegal in all of the US. Your profile says you're in Florida, where cockfighting is most assuredly illegal, and in a city with very tough enforcement of animal welfare laws, so if that's where you're at if you're involved in this "sport" somebody's going to bust your ass sooner rather than later.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. the United States.

Florida is also not a country, if anybody's paying attention at home.

[libnnc]

23. cockfighting is not legal in the US

What are you talking about?

The OP is saying it is legal in "his country" WHICH COUNTRY IS HE REFERRING TO?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Yes, it is.

Try reading the OP.

[LeftyMom]

26. Insert joke here about Florida being a third world country.

I'm too tired to come up with a new one.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Looks like california's got egg on its face this time around.

[LeftyMom]

37. Huh? I know damn well Florida's not a country.

If you can't read that's not my problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. LOL

I'm not the one having problem with not reading.

:rofl:

[LeftyMom]

48. You know what?

I really don't have time for your shit this evening. Go bother somebody else.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Well if you're to busy to read...

why don't you go do something else?

[LeftyMom]

55. Oh, I have time. I just want to spend it reading people with something substantive to say.

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. But you'd rather not read, or post anything substantive?

I'm not following.

[LeftyMom]

63. You're not trying very hard.

Have a good night, I suspect it's past your bedtime.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. You're right.

I've got a U.S. geography test tomorrow. I need to be able to locate Puerto Rico and Guam and Alaska and Hawaii and the Rocky Mountains and the Great Lakes all on a map.

Wish me luck.

[flvegan]

44. Please let me

Right now, you're calling the IRS on April 15th. It's a waste of time, because you'll never get through.

[Colobo]

28. Very quickly

1) Why do you insult the place I was born? It's obvious you don't know much about the situation anyway, but there is no need to insult a nation of 8 million American citizens, 4 living in the mainland? C'mon, we are disagreeing on cock fighting but your comment abour Puerto Rico was a cheap shot. I would love to hold a conversation with you about the political situation if you like.

2) I don't fight cocks. I never have, neither there nor here. I defend the right of people to do so over there, and wonder why it's vilified over here. Different cultural perspective.

[libnnc]

30. Where did I insult Puerto Rico?

[Colobo]

32. You didn't; Lefty Mom did.

[libnnc]

36. delete

[Colobo]

39. I didn't say such thing. I responded to Lefty Mom, not you.

[jilln]

35. People do not have a right to be savages.

It's vilified because it's mean, it panders to the worst in human nature and because preying on others is not generally seen as a positive trait.

So now you finally admit you ARE defending it, which was pretty clear from the original post anyway. Again, I am disgusted that anyone who thinks themselves progressive could find this to be acceptable behavior. I could care less how "traditional" or "cultural" it is. As someone else already pointed out, other things are considered traditional and cultural around the world, and that doesn't make them right.

[LeftyMom]

42. Is there a better way to describe "we want all the rights of statehood, but no federal taxes?"

That is the position of the majority of Puerto Ricans and of the leading political party, according to everything I've read.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. Um, yes.

And you just demonstrated it.

[Colobo]

69. It's more complicated than that, Lefty...

I would be a pleasure to hold a conversation with you about it, and I'm sorry this controversial topic has highlighted the cultural differences between us, that are, I'm sure, very minor compared to the beliefs that unite us. :)

[mitchtv]

93. I for one, understood the gist of your post

I have not read any "previous" ones about the subject. I would never dream of insulting PR or the people, for I would love to visit. Likewise, I would never dream of using animals in such a manner, or attend an event, which I consider, like bullfighting, a relic of a bygone era, and I would support any attempt to retire it from the public arena. I have traveled much of LatinAmerica and PR is on my agenda.

[Colobo]

97. Thanks. Good post, and you will have a great time in Puerto Rico.

By the way, many people are opposed to cock fighting down there as well. If they choose to get rid of it, it's fine with me. :)

[flvegan]

31. It's not misunderstood.

Spin it all you want.

It is what it is.

[bicentennial_baby]

34. And there you have it

:)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Apparently, there's a whole lot being misunderstood.

Puerto Rico, Florida, the United States, insurance fraud, the OP, Libnnc v. Leftymom...

[flvegan]

41. You're talking to me, now

What else you got?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Yes, but I was talking about other people.

It's not all about you, you know.

[flvegan]

51. You responded to me.

Anything else to say about the topic at hand in regards to what I posted, or you just going to sit 'n spin all night, thinking you're clever?

[AZBlue]

61. Ding, Ding, Ding!!! We have a winner!!!!!!!!!

Thank you. Well said and so succinct!

[AZBlue]

59. Defending disgusting violence as "historical" or "cultural" is, in itself, disgusting.

Virgins in volcanoes, the Crusades, the mistreatment of American Indians, burning witches and heretics...all good ideas since they are part of history and part of a culture!
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Hmmm

"the mistreatment of American Indians"

Speaking of which, how did the American Indians view cockfighting, and is it legal on reservations?

[AZBlue]

66. Don't know, don't care, you know that's not the mistreatment I'm referring to, don't be "clever".

(and I'm being generous using the word "clever")

As for cock-fighting, my response is the same, whether the person asking the question/posing the debate is from South American, is a Native American, is a brunette, has brown eyes, is yellow, polka-dotted or green!

But you knew that...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. It's not?

Taking away american indian lands and forcing them to get rid of their "barbaric" culture isn't the mistreatment you're referring to?

[jilln]

64. Hijiacking to criticize Amazon.com

So that something positive may actually come from this disgusting conversation:

From the Humane Society of the United States:

"For at least two years, online retailer Amazon has been infamously -- and incorrectly -- touting its "right" to sell materials promoting illegal animal fighting, blatantly peddling dogfighting videos as well as cockfighting magazines like The Gamecock and The Feathered Warrior. These materials are not only offensive because of the cruelty they glorify, but their shipment is also a felony under the recently-enacted Animal Fighting Prohibition Enforcement Act. The company's decision to defy the new federal law against the reprehensible practices of dogfighting and cockfighting is reckless.

Amazon is falsely claiming its commercial sale of animal fighting publications is protected by the First Amendment. But these cockfighting magazines are selling fighting birds and cockfighting weapons, and those activities are explicitly outlawed under the new federal law! Amazon even says it is within its rights to sell dogfighting videos -- a practice forbidden under two separate federal laws. The First Amendment does not protect companies from selling illegal contraband, and that's exactly what Amazon is doing."

Send a note to Jeff Bezos, millionaire CEO and animal abuse profiteer:

https://community.hsus.org/campaign/US_2007_amazon_fighting3/g5ki3wrq3mtmk5?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. But it's legal in Peurto Rico, Louisiana and New Mexico.

:shrug:

[libnnc]

75. Its not legal in North Carolina

Class I Felony

http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/press_releases/north_carolina_governor_easley_signs_bill_to_make_cockfighting_a_felony_.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. So?

They've still got the first amendment in North Carolina, don't they?

[jilln]

77. Read the link. You are wrong (again)

And I am not responding further to you. Your tactic is to insist red is green, up is down, and Amazon is operating legally when the link makes it clear that laws are being violated.

You berate others for not reading something yet don't do it yourself. It's easier just to spin things and be contrary no matter what is said, right?

You can answer this if you want (and I know you will) but I'm not wasting any more time on your posts.

You are the first person ever to be on my ignore list. If you like, you can use that link to ask Amazon to carry child porn, since that should be a 1st Amendment issue too, according to your "reasoning".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

78. I did read the link.

I'm disagreeing with it. Cock fighting is legal in many places in the U.S., and magazines about cock fighting are legal everywhere in the U.S.

[LeftyMom]

79. The law against it takes effect in New Mexico on the 15th

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-12-cockfighting-nm_N.htm

Louisiana has passed a bill banning it in both houses but they're trying to reconcile the bills right now (the main issue appears to be whether the ban takes effect this year or next.) http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/politics/7877267.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. And?

[LeftyMom]

83. It's an error by omission to say it's legal in New Mexico when the ban takes effect in a week.

Likewise, Louisiana is in the process of a ban. The intended effect of your post seems to be the suggestion that a ban on cockfighting is somehow controversial within the US, which is simply not the case.

[Matariki]

80. I'm very interested to see how the court rules in this lawsuit.

First Amendment argument versus animal cruelty law argument. Wonder what the court will find.

I'm very happy for this Supreme Court ruling: http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/obrani.html http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1993/9/1993-9-05.shtml
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=23901&sec=39&con=4

But it's not really the same, unless you take the cultural aspect into account.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

82. No, it's not very similar...

especially when it involves the actual act, and not just writing about it.

[Matariki]

85. The Supreme Court overturned laws against animal sacrifice for religious reasons

But you're right, this lawsuit against Amazon will be about the first amendment versus whatever laws the Human Society says Amazon is breaking. Like I said, it will be interesting to see what the ruling is.

[jilln]

84. pathetic

I hope you'll stand up for the right for religious people to do human sacrifices. After all, it's a cultural thing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. reducto ad absurdum.

[Matariki]

87. It most certainly is NOT the same as human sacrifice. That is very prejudiced.

Go argue with the Supreme Court and all the religious groups in the country that supported their decision.

[jilln]

88. Of course it is.

It was a religious practice. We should not interfere in religion, right? So you should have no problem with it.

And just because some groups supported it does not make it right. Look how many Americans support Gitmo.

[Matariki]

92. You are very ignorant of what you are talking about and very insensitive to Afro-Caribbean religion

Which is practiced by many, many people throughout the Caribbean, South and North America. It happens to be my religion also and I find your comparisons ignorant and thoughtless. I know you think you are right, but you simply aren't looking past yourself and your own prejudices. You're not even trying. In Haiti, when an animal is sacrificed a whole community is fed. Do you have a problem with that?


From Hinduism Today:

Major faiths in America have, with some trepidation, united in a successful defense of animal sacrifice. No, they are not calling for a revival of a practice many find offensive and a few defend as power-evoking. Mainstream religions are defending a tradition they don't agree with because they know that others may one day not agree with, and seek to legislate against, their beliefs and practices. This trial was about a small Afro-Cuban religious sect in Florida, known as Lukumi, fighting for the freedom to practice its religion, but its outcome impacts Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists as well, or anyone observing ancient practices and rituals that the "moral majority" might deem primitive, or worse. The following is excerpted with permission from Liberty, March/April, 1993.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. Personally, I find religious insensitivity to be barbaric.

But perfectly legal in all U.S. states and territories.

[Matariki]

100. Well apparently vegetarianism trumps religious freedom with some so-called progressives

and other people's religions are open to ridicule. Ho-hum.

[Colobo]

101. Are you Santero?

[Matariki]

109. Vodouisant

Getting initiated in Haiti this summer, in a month actually. I have friends who are Santero.

[Colobo]

116. Awesome! Congratulations! Santería is popular in Puerto Rico

because of the strong Cuban influences in the cultural and social landscape of the island during the 20th century.

[Matariki]

120. Thank you. I'm very excited.

And a little scared too - it's a pretty intense two week long ceremony. I've been working towards this for many years and now it's only a month a way.

[flvegan]

123. Hey, vodou

"The animals are quickly and mercifully killed, just as they would be for any other purpose. The life energy of the animal is for the lwa, the meat is for the hungry congregation."

Cockfighting don't fit into that mantra. What have you to say? Let me know if I'm out of context here, k? I'm curious, as I'm out of my element, here.

[Matariki]

115. I imagine it's pretty common in Pueto Rico too?

I have some friends from both Cuba and Argentina and in South America *everyone* practices some form of Afro-Caribbean religion. Even if they don't tell outsiders. Or so I'm told. Probably smart too considering the flack they'd get from the 'civilized' americans. ;-)

[mitchtv]

146. Few Argentinos, I would venture to say

The are extremely Euro in their outlook and life view, and the least Caribbean of all of Latin America. More Pizzerias than Brooklyn. Also they have little fear of N Americans.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. Meh, some people are just never civilized.

[flvegan]

98. "It" happens to be (your) religion.

What might that "it" be? It would appear, from your post, that animal sacrifice is part of your thing, there.

[jilln]

99. You find it ignorant and thoughtless

because you believe in killing animals for ceremonial purposes.

You can't say anything to me to make me think that's OK. And my comparisons are very good, but you find them insulting because you think YOUR reasons for killing animals are better than OTHER people's reasons for doing similar things. If you really believe in the idea that religious tradition trumps all, you would believe in human sacrifice, in sharia law and any other kind of incredibly primitive, barbaric practice that any religion around the world finds acceptable.

After all, they think they're just as right for doing those things as you do for whatever it is you do.

[Matariki]

107. Fine, don't do it then.

Your ignorance and prejudice isn't going to impact my spiritual practices either. I'm just grateful the Supreme Court passed laws to protect us against people like yourself. The 'moral majority' is what the Hindu Times referred to your ilk I believe. :rofl:

[jilln]

112. Well who's protecting the rest of us from YOU?

I have no problem with people's religions so long as they aren't harming anyone else - human or animal - in the process. If you want to burn candles or sing or try to convert others or or wear robes or whatever else, that's fine. But you have absolutely no right to push your violent religion on anyone else.

It's sad that you can laugh about inflicting pain and cruelty on a living thing. And think that it somehow makes you spiritual.

And now I'm done with you too. There's enough suffering in the world without reading from people who cause it on purpose.

[Matariki]

117. I'm laughing at your righteousness.

I assume you are a vegetarian or you have no 'moral ground' to stand on.

No one tortures animals in these religions and at least in Vodou the community eats them. Do you have any idea how important that is in a country like Haiti where people go for days without food sometimes?

This is certainly better than how animals are treated in first world factory farms. THAT is something I find abhorrent because although you won't understand this, my spiritual path has a great respect for life.

[flvegan]

89. Why?

I mean, religious "sacrifice" really has nothing to do with it. I'm intrigued by your "very interested" on this.

[jilln]

90. She's got a vested interest in killing animals, apparently.

Read the profile.

[flvegan]

94. Oh, so "racks with monkeys tied to them"

is something I should reflect upon?

Maybe you're right.

[Matariki]

95. I spent the summers of my youth on my grandparents farm

killing animals was part of life. This is how most people on the planet live.

[flvegan]

102. No the fuck it isn't.

That's one hell of a bubble you live in.

[Colobo]

104. Mmm... have you been in the so-called Third World?

[flvegan]

106. No, and likely neither have you

Considering that deforestation FOR animal agriculture is prevalent in "third world countries" I'd suggest you've done little more than view a Heifer International brochure.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

108. So then you admit animal agriculture is prevalent in 3rd world countries...

Because I thought you were just trying to deny it.

[flvegan]

111. No, I said deforestation was.

Spin THIS, baby.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. And... the deforestation is because of animal agriculture...

Who's spinning?

[flvegan]

118. You are. Next?

[Colobo]

121. Ehhh...

Half of my family is from the DR; I've spent quite a few time over there and I've seen things you have only seen on TV, and I hope you don't have to see personally (like children getting beat up by the police for picking up rotten food in a trash can in front of the police). Very 3rd world.

[flvegan]

124. Then, considering the case you've made

it seems you're terribly ignorant.

Sorry.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. Um...

but he/she's the one who's actually been to the third world, and you're not.

:shrug:

[Colobo]

126. I don't get your point.

[datasuspect]

149. strawman!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

105. I'm pretty sure he's right.

Have you got numbers demonstrating he's wrong?

[flvegan]

110. You make me laugh.

Since you're sooooo "pretty sure" then why don't you FINALLY back up something you say. Seriously. Back it up.

Off to Google with you, to do so. Shoulda done that in advance (maybe next time).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. Because you're the one making the unlikely claim.

Plus, you just sort of contradicted yourself there.

[flvegan]

119. Ummm...okay.

I hope that someday, you go back and read the shit you post BEFORE you post a response to something.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. less then five percent of americans are vegetarian.

India, with nearly a billion people and widespread vegetarianis, is still only about 31% vegetarian.

China, biggest country in the world, vegetarianism is rather rare.

Is there some huge country in the world, flvegan, where vegetarians outnumber non-vegetarians?

[flvegan]

127. At what point, spindoctor, did vegetarianism enter this discussion?

Please, be exceedingly specific, so I can spit it back in your face.

Thanks.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

129. The part where Kineta said...

that killing animals is a part of life for most people in the world, and you denied it.

[Colobo]

130. After that, I lost his/her point.

[flvegan]

131. Thank you for saying that.

Killing animals isn't a part of life for most people in the world. People killing animals FOR them might be. Quite frankly, most people couldn't handle it. Like has been said, if slaughterhouses had glass walls...

Thanks for walking into that one.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. If slaughterhouses had glass walls, most people would still eat meat.

When everybody lived on farms, as Kineta was saying, most people saw animals being slaughtered right in front of them on a daily basis. And most still do, that's why it's a part of life for most people.

[Matariki]

140. Ha - at least I have a profile, jilln

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. Apparently some people are so zealous...

they'll just keep sticking their foot in their mouths rather than concede a point.

[BoneDaddy]

133. I love the part where

the Spanish are blamed for the sport. Personally, I could care less about the cockled roosters...I care more about the people of the island

[jilln]

135. i like to crush small animals under my high heels

i am a serious artist and do this for serious artistic purposes. I work in both videotape and paint mediums. No more pain is inflicted on the small animals than what is necessary. This is legal in the US, although performing the same act for nonartistic purposes or using different animals could result in animal cruelty charges.

As you know, art has a long cultural history all over the world. I believe strongly in art and in my work. Anyone who thinks this is barbaric in any way is prejudiced, small-minded and hates art. That type of person should not try to force their Puritanical morals on me, for I have Art and Law on my side. The right-leaning Supreme Court - the same one that handed the presidency to the current moron, recently voted to restrict equal pay lawsuits and has many other illustrious examples of backwards thinking - has not struck the legality of this type of art down. And why does PetSmart sell gerbils anyway, if it's not for me to crush them under high heels and videotape it?

Remember, this is legal as long as I am a serious artist, and there is a long tradition of art in the world.

[Matariki]

139. Let me tell you a story about the Salmon

A few years back I went to the locks in Seattle when the Salmon were running. It was AMAZING and it was beautiful. The water was THICK with salmon, absolutely solid. They were trying to jump up the locks and the atmosphere was absolutely tangible with their life force. I've never seen anything like it. It was exciting and everyone around me was affected similarly.

I actually had a spiritual experience. This was life itself - the Great Spirit if you will, manifesting as salmon. And I got hungry. Seriously hungry for fish. And there wasn't any contradiction between these two feelings.

In that moment I understood why the natives of this area had festivals and celebrations when the 'salmon people' returned. The reverence and celebration AND the feasting. Reverence because of the recognition that the spirit that is in all things, which is the great dance of life, returned again as sustenance for the community.

If you see cruelty where there's only beauty, it's a pity.

When people offer the animal they are going to eat to their gods before eating it, how is this more cruel than what happens to the animals that people eat every day but were bought at a store or restaurant. It's a damn site less cruel if you ask me.

[libnnc]

142. That's a beautiful story but what does that have to do with

training roosters to kill each other and betting on the winner?

[Matariki]

143. jilln's post was a criticism of my post up-thread about a Supreme Court ruling

which overturned laws prohibiting animal sacrifice as practiced by certain Afro-Caribbean religions.

I understand that she thinks it is cruel and should not be legal, in spite of the Supreme Court affirming it as religious freedom. Or that anyone practicing such a religion is evil and/or barbaric. Nonetheless, I was attempting to get her to see it from a perspective different than her own. Although I doubt I'll get far with that.

[JVS]

145. Are you fucking kidding or what?

That's sounds like deeply fucked up "art"

[jilln]

147. The point is

this is truly legal. A law signed by Clinton made it illegal to sell images of cruelty intentionally inflicted on animals, UNLESS it had a "serious artistic, religious, etc." purpose.

If you read the thread above, the defenders of cockfighting claim that this noble act is OK because it's legal (in some places). Others want it to remain legal so that their religious "right" to sacrifice animals is not in jeopardy.

The rest of us are arguing that tradition and culture evolve and cockfighting has no place in a civilized society, whether or not it's been done for hundreds of years.

BTW, there is always some artist doing something sick, like putting goldfish in a blender (this actually made it into a MUSEUM) and arguing that their artistic expression/freedom of speech/religious concerns etc. are more important than whatever sick thing they're doing to the animal, which would be illegal under other circumstances. Their arguments are very similar to the ones you will see above.

[Matariki]

148. You so completely missed the point.

As I pointed out earlier you are misinformed about the topic so you don't know what you're talking about. You simply have a knee-jerk opinion.

No where was it argued that cockfighting should be made legal with the idea that it would protect the religious right to make animal sacrifices. I was simply comparing court cases and wondering out loud how the Amazon vs Humane Society suit would turn out.

An animal that is sacrificed in Vodou is eaten by the community. It is simply offered to the gods before doing so. An animal that lives and dies this way experiences much less cruelty than what happens to animals in factory farms everyday. Including your lunch.

You want to rail against animal cruelty, bitch at all the meat eaters who have no idea where their food comes from.

[Colobo]

150. LOL! Good post.

[jilln]

152. Too bad I missed it.

Whoever it was is on my ignore list.

Oh well, it's pretty clear that the vast majority of people here are against encouraging animals to attack each other. As it should be.

Did you ever answer me on your other thread? Over here you claim to be neutral, but on the other one you admit you "proudly" support cockfighting. I bet there's a psychiatrist somewhere who could help you.

[LaReservaPr]

137. Poll in Puerto Rico

Just to add to the discussion.
Here is info from a poll done by El Nuevo Dia, a local newspaper in Puerto Rico.

54% of those polled in the island say that the government should restrict the practice of Cockfighting.
Even in rural areas of Puerto Rico, where the issue is more divided, 49% approve of restrictions.

Link:
http://www.gallodominicano.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=24

[Colobo]

144. Excellent information, I appreciate it.

[Cleita]

141. Spaniards have brought cruel sports to us including

bullfighting. It doesn't mean that we all embrace it. I don't like what you bring to this board with your hispanic hatred. I don't know who you are. You claim to be a black person from a hispanic country, but I am doubting it. We have a hispanic forum here at DU if you would like to debate us there en ingles, espanol o castellano, nosotros escucharamos.

[porphyrian]

151. Chickens are filthy fucking cannibals.

They don't have the sense to disregard their own feces. If you want to try to stop eating them, try raising them.

That doesn't mean anyone should be intentionally cruel to them. However, I don't find them to be much more than insects with regards to how they're treated, so cock fighting in a legal and regulated wouldn't really bother me any more than roach fighting would, though I have no interest in it personally.

[Colobo]

153. I raised chickens when I was little; great animals and very tasty too.

[porphyrian]

154. The only thing "great" about the ones we raised were the brown eggs.

Otherwise, they were just filthy and stupid.