Libby Survey

[H2O Man]

In the past week, there have been a number of threads on DU which have featured interesting discussions on the possibility of President Bush granting I. Liar "Scooter" Libby a pardon. Libby, a convicted felon, faces the distinct possibility of being incarcerated this summer, before his appeals are considered.

There are many good reasons to think Bush may pardon Libby; some good reasons to believe he definitely will; and other equally good reasons to think that Bush will not grant the pardon that the Libby supporters are demanding.

The timing of the next court hearing presents an interesting set of circumstances. The Libby supporters had hoped that Libby would be out of prison while his lawyers were appealing his felony convictions. They hoped that the appeals would continue until the end of Bush's second term, and that the president would then quietly pardon the faithful, silent Libby.

But if Libby is incarcerated this summer, the dynamics change. We see the intensity of the Libbyites efforts to "free Scooter" in the rather curious Amicus Brief filed by Robert Bork & Friends, challenging Patrick Fitzgerald's authority to conduct the Plame scandal investigation.

Does the strange move on Bork, Dershowitz, and the other attorneys lend support to Robert Parry's 6-6-07 article, "Last Plamegate Worry for Bush/Cheney"? What further steps will the Libbyites take? There may be clues in John Dean's recent article, "The Bush Administration's Dilemma Regarding a Possible Libby Pardon," which is sub-titled "And How Outsiders Such as Fred Thompson Appear to Be Working on a Solution."

Part of the answer, of course, is found in the personality of George W. Bush. He has no respect for the Constitution or the rule of law, and is conceited, arrogant, vain, cruel, vindictive, and shallow. These were the very qualities that the neoconservatives found so attractive in 2000. Will these same qualities help or hurt Libby's chances of getting a pardon?

Bush is a study in superficial contradictions. Let's look briefly at three quotes from Corn & Isikoff's book "Hubris":

{1} The first is from when David Kay explained the lack of WMD found in Iraq to the president. It is from pages 310-311 in Chapter 16 ("The Incurious President"). "But the president seemed disengaged. 'I'm not sure I've spoken to anyone at that level who seemed less inquisitive,' Kay recalled. ... 'I cannot stress too much,' he subsequently remarked, 'that the president was the one in the room who was the least unhappy and the least disappointed about the lack of WMDs. ... Here was an individual who was oblivious to the problems created by the failure to find the WMDs."

{2} In Chapter 13 ("The Leaking Begins"), we find a president who is less at peace with the failure to find WMDs in Iraq. In June of 2003, on Air Force 1, Bush is questioning aides about a draft of a speech he is preparing to give. "... Bush questioned a line that had been drafted for him. Is this true? he asked. Yes, Mr. President, he was told, it's been vetted. "Oh, yeah, just like the WMD we found,' Bush snapped, according to an aide who was present. This was a snide comment, the aide said ..., It seemed to this aide that the WMD flap was getting to the president." (page 232)

{3} The last one is the little outburst that the president had when he heard that Helen Thomas had upset Ari Fleischer at a press conference. It's found on pages 3-4 of the book's introduction. When Bush heard that Helen had challenged the administration, he "grew grim and determined -- steely. Out of nowhere, he unleased a string of expletives. 'Did you tell her I don't like motherfuckers who gas their own people? ... Did you tell her I don't like assholes who lie to the world? Did you tell her I'm going to kick his sorry motherfucking ass all over the mideast?"

In the recent past, when the Baker-Hamilton group made their recommendations about US policy in Iraq, George was not interested. In fact, he seemed insulted by other people attempting to pressure him. Considering the nature of George W. Bush's "personality," do you think he is likely to pardon Scooter Libby? There really isn't a right or wrong answer at this time. I'm simply looking for DUers thoughts on George's personality type, and how it plays a role in his ability to make decisions.

Thank you for your contributions to this thread.

[zippy890]

1. I don't think its a 'done deal' at all that bush will pardon libby

for just the reasons you discuss- his personality. His imperviousness to outside pressures, the way he gets on his high horse about certain things, like the more he gets pressured to pardon libby the more he'll dig his heels in against the pressure.

Also, I wonder about the dynamics between Cheney and Bush these days. Probably quite strained when it comes to this issue, with Rove getting off without being charged with anything. I don't know if Cheney, and 'powerful friends' of cheney & libby are going to get bush to pardon libby.

I find this extremely interesting question, wondering what bush will do. I could be wrong, but I think a lot of people are assuming he will pardon him. bush's personality may morph into his cornered rat trait- .

time to pull out the


:popcorn:

[lyonn]

14. Good question, how tight is bush and cheney at this point?

Rove appears to be in george's good graces. Could it be that cheney has gone to far with his "brilliance" in guiding george? Is this not a hell of a way to run a country? We have someone so lacking in original thought running it and yet he has this ego that appears to make george tick. Scary.

[glitch]

18. I agree - the pardon will depend entirely on his relationship with Cheney

He no doubt blames Cheney for all his failures (if you can't trust your handler who can you trust?), for his having to wait for history to vindicate him. I am sure Bush wanted his glory in real time.

The only way he'll pardon Libby is if they threaten to expose him for any one of his own crimes, or if they make him some very lucrative (and somewhat face-saving) offer post-presidency, or both. I don't imagine he cares about the politics of the decision, one way or the other.

[blogslut]

2. No pardon

He'll throw out a lot of well wishes and heavy sighs for Scooter but, but no pardon.

[EST]

3. Stimulating.

I suspect, with bush's hate for anything resembling "democratic" principles and his love for people who suck up to him, that a pardon is in the offing.
The complication, as pointed out by many thoughtful people, is that judge Reggie did such a thorough job of regulating and guiding the trial, leaving little wiggle room for appellate maneuvering.

The biggest hurdle is that bush is a natural coward with a distressing need to be honored and valued. His need to be the center of ardor and attention argues for a pardon for convicted felon, Libby, with an almost pathological need to tweak democratic noses as a reinforcing factor.

Given his distressing penchant for flubbing the dud and creating crises, our erstwhile president will have ample opportunity for a quiet pardon in a couple of months, as the current furor becomes a part of the background roar that has become such a part of public communication. Thinking people and constitutional purists-assuming such actually exist-will be mortified and outraged, but what else is new?

With the "September crisis" rapidly approaching and the anger surrounding illegal immigration reaching a boiling point, Libby may actually spend a little time in jail but will probably be a free man-including a pro-forma pat on the back for patriotic service-before Christmas.

[Kansas Wyatt]

4. He is through with Libby's usefulness

Besides, he is probably pissed about Libby getting himself caught and tarnishing his smoke and mirrors image.

[glowing]

5. We'll see....

As to his character, I think he's demented and loves power. He is the Emperor with no clothes, and I don't think there is any little boy out there on his parade route that can change his mind. In the children's book, we see that the Emperor has reasoning, just nobody would point out to him that the finest clothes that he is wearing, is nothing. Bush has lost objective reasoning (if he even knows what it means). He has been told his war and policies have not been good for the USA, and he doesn't care. This makes him dangerous. Its like the serial killer who says "catch me if you can". This taunt at the United States, its people, its constitution, is the reason I feel he is dangerous, and he must be held accountable for his actions.

I don't hate Bush. I don't know him. I feel sorry for him that he had a horrible childhood that seemed to follow him into adulthood. He was born into a strange family. Could you imagine a mother like that. I do believe that most mother's today would have their children taken from them under those circumstances. And I am sure that he struggled in school, especially since he has dyslexia. I don't even know if they had a name for it when he was going to grade school. So it makes sense that he fell into the rich kid, party scene. I feel sympathy towards him as a man. Having said that, this man happens to be the President that was selected into office. A man like this is dangerous as a president.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

6. No pardon will be granted.

Bush has learned to expect total loyalty from his dedicated band of sycophants and he will expect no less of Scooter. He expects Libby to shut the hell up and do his time like a good soldier, sacrificing his life, career, and family on the altar of the boy king. These are not things Bush values, unless they are his own.

Bush knows well that, if Scooter is granted a pardon, he loses 5th amendment protection and will have to spill the beans on the OVP, so Libby will most definitely do at least 18 months in stir and probably the whole (net) 23 months. Why will Scooter throw his life away for CheneyCo? Why do birds sing? It is the last aria of the noble I Liar Libby - proof of his devotion and passion for his "betters", the capstone of his career as "master of the universe".

I keep thinking about that movie H20man imagined - "Scooter's Platoon". actually, I'm thinking about another movie... one of those great old chestnuts us oldsters love, in this case "Angels With Dirty Faces". At the end, Father Pat O'Brian is trying to convince the hardened criminal Jimmy Cagney to stop leading the boys down the garden path to criminality. He wants Cagney to crack, and beg for mercy on the way to the gas chamber. Cagney will have nothing of it - he wants to be an heroic figure for the "angels", and plans to go in hard and cold like the brutal psychopath he truly is. He tells Fr. O'Brian to "Go Screw!"

Of course, in the end, Cagney comes to Jesus an whimpers like the most craven coward as they march him into the chamber, Fr. O'Brian carrying a missal and praying behind him, the music swelling in the background. The "angels" are disgusted by this, and decide that leading lives of crime is not so cool, and they all go on to be doctors and engineers and good, law-abiding citizens, making Fr. O'Brian proud.

But Scooter ain't gonna crack for Father Fitz - he's going to march into that cellblock and make his neocon buddies proud. all these letter and brief writers will collaborate on books extolling his virtues and lionizing him and they'll buy him a villa in the Bahamas where he, now divorced and estranged from his children, can chase beautiful young women all day long.

[glitch]

24. Good point "f Scooter is granted a pardon, he loses 5th amendment protection"

that might even mean other traitors involved iin exposing Plame, like Cheney, won't really be pushing for the pardon.
All the push is having to come from "outsider" friends of Scooter. And how much pull do "outsiders" have with Bush?

Maybe if he's really pissed at Cheney he will pardon Libby, but only if he believes that he won't be implicated. I doubt that very much considering Karl's involvement. I still think this was a Bush/Cheney joint venture. The tags are there for both of them.

[riderinthestorm]

27. No pardon. Libby goes to jail for his term and is rewarded post-presidency

He signed on to this criminal Admin knowing the ramifications - he gambled and lost. At this point he knows if he keeps his mouth shut, does the time, he will be amply compensated afterwards.

His family life is already screwed - I can't believe he doesn't already know that happy time is finished either way. His career as a public servant is over, as is a position in any other regular career. His only chance for longevity is to stay with the criminals.

If he's pardoned, nobody will ever touch him. If he at least keeps his mouth shut he is assured some semblance of a life with the junta forever.

Bush and Cheney know Libby understands that. They expect and demand utter loyalty from their crime family members. Libby goes to jail and stays in jail.

[yodermon]

67. "If pardoned, Scooter loses 5th amendment protection"? I don't get it.

If he's pardoned, the only thing being pardoned are the false statements, perjury, and obstruction. He could still be charged with Espionage/IIPA violation.

So, he could still assert his 5th amendment rights wrt those potential charges, right?

[H2O Man]

70. That would

assume that Bush would grant a pardon restricted to only those things he was convicted of. It may be more likely that, if he did grant a pardon, he would add a sentence (or a mere phrase in an existing sentence) that extends the pardon.

[Annces]

7. I am not quite sure

However he does not care how bad he is or how much he is liked, he cares that he has the power and that other people bow down to him. So he may pardon Libby to show he is the King and everyone else has to kiss his ass.

[Toots]

8. Just as Daddy pardoned Casper so will Bush* pardon Scooter

There is a normal "protocol" for issueing pardons. First they must show remorse, next they must have served their term or at least some of it. Bush* has absolutely nothing to lose if he pardons Libby. He is the "Decider" and he always decides in favor of the select few over the American people. I expect no different in this case. The Democrats will squeel and howl while Cheney and Bush* will chuckle and snort.

[leftofthedial]

9. he's a sociopath

and utterly ignorant---he doesn't have a clue about the details of Libby's crime

and he doesn't care AT ALL about anyone but himself

I see no upside to him personally to pardon Libby, so I doubt he'll do it

It will boil down to how much control others, like Cheney, still have over him or if he thinks he can get some sort of "retribution" against someone else by pardoning Libby

He'll never do it out of concern for Libby or his family or out of some sort of principled conviction

[H2O Man]

63. I think that

Bush's sociopathy is found, among other areas, in his personal relationships. He has a reputation in the media for having great loyalty in his friendships, but I think that this is less a result of his being "loyal" as requiring a certain comfort level. But, like a comfortable old pair of shoes, Bush seems willing to toss a person to the side when the person creates a discomfort for George that is greater than their value.

And, as I've noted on other threads, he has a disturbing quality that was illustrated the day that Scott McClellan "resigned." When the two walked out to meet with reporters, McClellan was clearly in emotional pain. Bush took obvious delight in his "friend's" suffering.

[annabanana]

10. "Outsiders Such as Fred Thompson "

That's a good one.

Note the next to last name on the "Avisory Committee" of the Libby Legal Defense Trust
http://www.scooterlibby.com/

I think that it will be very easy for the "free Scooter" crowd to overplay their hand with the boy king. If he feels pressured, he most assuredly will NOT let him out. I only hope that Scoots is counting on that pardon and that not getting it will open his yap.

[bleever]

19. From scooterlibby.com:

"The real tragedy in this story is the life of one man. A man who has dedicated his life to public service. Again, this is not about the courts, the jury, the judge, or, even the prosecutor. It's about one man and the burden he and his family have had to bear throughout this ordeal. Let's not forget Scooter and his family and the difficult times they are facing."

Got that? It's not about truth as the engine of justice, or subverting the rule of law on a matter involving national security. It's really all about Scooter.

[Me.]

11. The Neo-Cons

Have been conned if they think * is going to give a pardon. My reasons for this pronunciations are as follows:

-Rove has been angry with I Liar for a long time for getting them in this mess. And when push comes to shove I'm betting he'll be listening to spiteful KKK rather than malicious dick.

-Given his personality, I think * would have disdain for Libby getting himself in this mess.

-Nobody tells him what to do and the more people push the more he resists

=As you've pointed out on many occasions, he likes watching people suffer

In general, for all their hissy fit the Defense Fundamentals haven't gotten anything they've wanted where Scooter is concerned. They wanted the trial stopped, didn't get that, wanted no jail time, didn't get that. Moreover, I think their campaign has been offensive to the judge who isn't fooled in the least by what Libby has done.

[Me.]

13. Furthermore

I agree with Larry Johnson that Pace's letter to the judge on behalf of Libby was the final straw and ignited his move into retirement. That says to me that the establishment behind the establishment is against a Libby pardon and it may have been a warning shot to others.

[WiseButAngrySara]

34. Interesting. Do you have a link handy? ...n/t

[Me.]

38. Here's The DU Thread, Which Will Lead You To The Original

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1072096

[WiseButAngrySara]

40. Thanks! and this will give another kick for a fascinating thread. ...n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

12. I don't see how he can, and I don't think his advisers will let this slip

A fellow DUer pointed out that the moment he's pardoned, he can be compelled to testify before Congress. There's no way Deadeye Dick can allow THAT to happen.

They'll fight a rearguard action to keep him out of jail, find many sneaky ways to buy him off for his loyalty (not that they're particularly ethical, but because some of them have ties to him and he's too prominent to kill) and set him up in some cushy gentleman's retirement. Nonetheless, it looks like he'll have to serve. Perhaps a pardon on the last day is possible, but even this opens him up to being compelled to testify, and there's just too much they don't want him to say.

Then again, who the hell knows?

[WiseButAngrySara]

35. Maybe this is one of the reasons he's 'lawyered up' recently?

I'll find kpete post on this and edit for the link in case you missed the thread.

BUSH LAWYERS UP-Adds NINE NEW LAWYERS TO WH Counsel's Staff
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1069754

edited to ad link

[DemReadingDU]

15. Libby got caught, much like Enron's Ken Lay

Kenny boy was no longer a friend to Bush once Ken Lay was implicated in the Enron scandal. It appears that Scooter is no longer Bush's friend either now that Libby is a convicted felon. I don't see Bush pardoning Libby next week, or anytime soon. Maybe when Bush leaves office, he'll grant Libby a pardon. I see Libby counting on that pardon, however long it takes. Libby won't talk, ever. Libby will sit quietly in jail hoping for that pardon.

[mod mom]

46. Interesting analogy. You're correct that * was quick to dump Kenny-boy when

he got into deep doo doo. I was going to write of course there will be a pardon as * believes "they" (the elite) are above the law and need not bother with such trivialities as perjury and obstruction of justice. The end always justifies the means wth this crowd. That said...your example places doubt on my previous thoughts.

Sure hope you are right!

[Me.]

16. !

:kick:

[EFerrari]

17. Imho, the question is does he stand to gain or lose by pardoning Libby.

On one hand, he has little to lose and is serving out his time, so he could pardon Libby were he so inclined and at little cost to himself.

On the other hand, the Republican party might gain if Libby were put out there to draw fire. Expiation or something. Libby himself seems to have already accepted this as his sacrificial role.

But given Mr. Bush's somewhat pragmatic and rigid personality, I'm inclined to believe he will ignore the party and pardon Libby because to allow the conviction to stand would be an admission of error on Bush's part and we know he doesn't do admissions of error.

[immoderate]

20. Thank you, H2O Man -- for the headache.

You have found a truly perplexing puzzle, and my opinion changes with each of the comments I have read. A brilliant question, with many equally brilliant answers. People around here are so smart and knowledgeable. How to predict what the Bush will do -- hmm.

The most salient points I have gathered from this thread are that, if Libby gets the pardon, he has to spill his guts to the Congress. OTOH, Bush is arrogant and stupid, and could ignore anyone's interests, including his own. So I give up, and the best I can do is :popcorn: wait for the show.

--IMM

[bleever]

21. He'll make his decision sociopathically,

whichever way he decides.

Either his sadistic side and disdain for "losers" wins out, and there's no pardon, or his disdain for any other power but his own wins out, and he says "Screw you" to the Court and the Constitution and pardons Libby because he can.

[glitch]

22. Pokin' the beaaaaar . Interesting thread K & R nt

[WilliamPitt]

23. I wrote my opinions on this in a Thursday column

Double, Double, Toil and Trouble
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Columnist

Thursday 07 June 2007

(snip)

Cheney and the Angry Inch

The question of whether or not to pardon Libby presents perhaps the most dangerous tipping point facing the Bush administration. As with the immigration issue, a full-spectrum calamity will be exploded by either decision made on this.

Libby is looking at 30 months in prison if no pardon is forthcoming. US District Judge Reggie Walton, who imposed the sentence, has made it clear that allowing Libby to remain free pending appeals isn't something he feels compelled to do. The final decision on whether or not Libby will have to wear a prison jump suit while awaiting the outcome of the appeals process is slated to come down in exactly one week, on June 14.

If Judge Walton decides June 14 is go-to-jail day for Libby, and no Bush pardon is forthcoming, special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will find himself gripping the handle of an awesomely formidable battle axe. Fitzgerald has made clear his belief that Libby broke the law, but did so to protect his boss, Dick Cheney. Fitzgerald will be able, under these circumstances, to offer Libby a choice: do hard time, or roll on your boss and spill the beans.

If that happens, and Libby decides to escape prison time by telling Fitzgerald what he knows, the cat will finally leap all the way out of the bag. The outing of Plame, the manipulation of WMD intelligence, the Office of Special Plans, the manipulation of terror alerts, the true intentions behind the decision to invade, and the whole smelly pile of fish heads will come spilling out onto the dock for all to see. Such an outcome might even pierce the veil surrounding Cheney's secret energy meetings from way back when; many people suspect that an invasion of Iraq, and a capture of their oil infrastructure, played a large part in the formulation of those plans.

Allowing such an outcome would present an unacceptable risk for Bush and Cheney, and thus pardoning Libby seems to be a no-brainer decision. But to do so risks the final fermentation of the growing dislike and distrust among the populace for the administration. A Libby pardon may well unleash the kind of terminal public backlash Nixon absorbed after the firing of Archibald Cox during the Watergate scandal. Furthermore, such a backlash may well rope in all the other issues - the general disapproval already in place, the Iraq occupation, the unrest within the GOP coalition over immigration - and create an avalanche that would be almost impossible to survive.

June 14, simply put, is going to be a really, really big day.

More: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/060707R.shtml

[riderinthestorm]

25. Forget public backlash, the real pressure will be when Congress call Libby to testify under oath.

Scooter loses his ability to take the 5th if he gets pardoned. And there is all sorts of time for Congress to begin nosing around Libby at this point in the Admin's terminal WH occupation.

[bleever]

26. The "terminal public backlash" is a wild card.

I hadn't thought much about that, because it's hard to envision what its ramifications might be, but you've got a really good point there.

[Me.]

43. The Paris Backlash Might Be A Model To Keep In Mind

Sounds silly but I think the country reached a tipping point the other day. Whatever one's personal view might be, there was fury across the land that one more privileged being was let off the hook. And then there was the anger directed at the dems when they did the stupid with the Iraq vote. I think a rage is building and should not be dismissed by anyone, especially someone who's worried about their legacy and knows that we know all that's been done. * found it easy to ignore us before but now....

[bleever]

44. A tidal wave of "throw the bums out" that will also be bad news

for Romney, Fred Thompson, and other Scootie defenders...sounds good to me.

[Me.]

53. 'Zactly

Your sig is a version of that too. Their time is on the way.

[bleever]

56. Here's hoping that

my sig line and yours converge, and soon.

:toast:

[WilliamPitt]

59. On point.

Nicely put.

[Me.]

71. Coming From You....

Much appreciated

[NastyRiffraff]

49. Wow, good responses to a very complex subject

There are many factors to consider.

1. The Cheney/Bush relationship. Reports are that it's not good, with Cheney attempting a mini-coup and all. He's managed, thus far, to feed and encourage Bush's dreams of being an emperor, but he's undercutting all his hard work by his many public contradictions of stated administration policy. And there's the OVP/State Dept. dustup that originated with Powell and is continuing with Rice.

2. Scooter's vaunted loyalty. Yes, yes, I know, Saint Scooter is the ultimate loyalist, a great patriot, a friend par excellence, etc. etc. But people ave to wonder if that won't crumble like ancient brick when he's fitted for an orange jump suit. Will he jump into Fitz's waiting arms or hold out for hope? The first can be disastrous for Bush/Cheney.

3. Scooter's loyalty was/is primarily to Cheney Yes, he was also an advisor to the president. But he was chiefly Cheney's creature. So, from Bush's POV, especially considering his ego, why would Bush pardon someone whose loyalty to HIM may be in question? Even if not pardoning him could hurt the administration. (And I think Bush thinks of himself entirely separate from the administration, which is a governmental body.)

4. The 29% Or 30, or whatever. Anyway, there's not much left of the base, but what's there is persistent and fanatical. He's already lost some of that over immigration...what happens when the rest take their ball and go home if he doesn't pardon Scooter?

There are other factors, too, of course, as have been pointed out in this thread. So the answer? Damned if I know.

[H2O Man]

62. One of my good friends

e-mailed me after reading your essay, and commented that it was among the very best of your works. I agree.

[WilliamPitt]

65. A mighty honor coming from you, sir.

Thank you.

Do you think the essay's reasoning is sound?

[H2O Man]

68. Yes.

Very much so.

[sendero]

80. I think there is a less than 1% chance..

.... that Libby will spill his guts, prison or no prison.

It just is not going to happen.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

28. Here's a truly devious solution:

Bush has the option of commuting Libby's sentence. Thsi way, he pulls Scooter's fat from the fire and ensures that I Liar will not give up Cheney or anyone else involved, but at the same time, by avoiding the grant of pardon, allows Libby to retain his 5th amendment right not to answer questions!

This course of action is SO low-down and dirty, it gives Bush a chance to tell the whole country, especially Judge Walton and Patrick Fitzgerald, to F*** O** and Die - which is apparently Junior's sole reason for existence.

It's so deliciously skanky and bad - it's definitely what will happen.

[riderinthestorm]

30. Oh baby, slam dunk!

Can Bush do this though? Anyone know?

If he CAN commute Libby's sentence, I'd put my bet on this guess.

[glitch]

31. Second this. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

29. IMCPO, it's because of that personality... conceited, arrogant, vain, cruel, vindictive, and shallow

That he WILL pardon Libby, just because HE CAN and because HE'S THE PRESIDENT, the Decider. He knows he shouldn't pardon Libby, so he will.

[ClayZ]

32. I hope songwriters write children's songs

Using "Libby as the Liar". I hope they go down in history and are sung while jumping rope and playing Hop Scotch. I hope the tell of the cowardice and mayhem that bu$h and Cheney unleashed on the world.

What the heck, I will write one.
...

Libby lied
And he was tried
While Georgie played the dummy
Millions died
And People Cried
As Cheney BOMBED with Rummy

One.........for bu&h's big red horns
Two.........stomps for Carl Rove
Three.......may we always warn
"NO WAR"....the treasure trove

ONE-TWO-THREE-FOUR
Lock Them Up!
And throw away the key
America is good again
From sea to shining sea

[IChing]

33. I think he has a Roman emperor personality among other

other psychopathic tendencies. But on this decision I believe
he will await until the last moment after other appeals are
gone to give the thumbs up or down
before his VP's favorite gladiator is given to the lions of justice.

The consequences will not be thought out.


While watching President Bush’s January 11th "Surge Speech"
I bristled when he emphasized himself in his statement:

"The situation in Iraq is unacceptable to the American people – and it is unacceptable to me."

However, by the end of his diatribe I was sure that George Bush no longer thought of himself in any terms other than those of a god.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

36. H20man - What do You think??? n/t

[H2O Man]

37. It's a tough call

to make, because Bush loves to display what he mistakes for "power." But, I think that in history, we often see with tyrants and their ilk that what begins as their strength eventually becomes their downfall. I think that may hold true for Cheney .... and Libby is, in a very real sense, an extension of Cheney.

[WiseButAngrySara]

39. Wonderful post and the comments were very good too.

I really don't know, but my guess is that he'll finally pardon but after a wait if I Liar Libby goes to jail immediately. What is your explanation for the additional lawyers added to the WH staff recently? Is this at all related to Libby (like all things aren't with these lying thugs; their evil is all connected at the roots) or more to Gonzo or what is your opinion? Also waiting to hear your resonse to a DUers hypothetical about a commuted sentence with preservation of his right to plead the fifth?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1069754

[HereSince1628]

41. IMO, Bush will be directed to pardon by 2 sets of cognitive motives; existential and ideological

Under existential motivators, Bush will likely respond to the Libby sentencing as a threat to his authority and control. While Libby is a trusted confidant and tool of Cheney it is uncertain if he has similar loyalty to Bush, this uncertainty may lead Bush to try to protect himself by pardoning Libby as a quid pro quo for Libby keeping his mouth shut. With resepect to existential motivation this allows Bush to manage the fear of Libby squealing and thereby limits the possibility that Bush's self-esteem is vulnerable to destruction.

Under ideological motivators, it is likely that Bush supports his Boss, Dick Cheney, and feels that this administration's need to attack Iraq (made possible by Libby's actions) is rationalization enough for their self-interest in protecting Libby. Moreover, to move through the maze of bubbles Bush seems to live in he needs to justify the constructed sytematic world view he has adopted. Pardoning Libby provides a cognitive pinion/emotional reference point from which to anchor himself. This results in a tautology wherein a Libby pardon becomes external evidence that Bush's world view is right because others adopt it and demand Bush to produce the pardon which becomes the evidence on which they perpetuate their adoption of Bush's world view. And their support further undergirds W's belief in his warped ideology.

[pacalo]

42. So many factors to consider...

If he pardons Libby, it will be consistent with his "I know more/better than anyone else" attitude with everything else he's handled.

If he doesn't pardon Libby, it could be attributed to his stubborn pride from his Texas governor days of not granting pardons.

We don't really know for sure about the chemistry of the interpersonal relationships in the WH, either, between Bush & Cheney's staffs. That may play a factor in the decision. I've read about friction between the two staffs & I wonder if it comes from the top of both, with Bush & Cheney despising each other.

I'm most convinced that the immature, apathetic, punitive boy king will base his decision on whatever strategical reason dreamed up by Karl Rove.

And since I believe Rove might be personally worried about the dangers of Libby having to face 2-1/2 years in prison, who happens to be married to a woman who Mary Matlin described in her pardon-Libby letter as having "ideological" differences with her & Libby & who said after the trial something to the effect that, "We're going to get those s.o.b.'s", I see a pardon coming.

[WiseButAngrySara]

52. Very interesting comment about Libby's wife but coming

from married to ragin' cajun hypocrite Matlin, I have my doubts. Is this all inference from her letter and the post-trial comment or do you have a link?

[pacalo]

72. I do have links, although the post-trial comment...

was very difficult (surprise, surprise) to find.

Mary Matalin's letter actually said, "His wife and my husband share similar political views...", if you want the actual quote instead of my "something to the effect" inference.

And my other "something to the effect" inference about Mrs. Libby's post-verdict quote was also from memory. What she said was, "We're going to f*ck them."

[WiseButAngrySara]

73. Thank you so much! I'm off to read. I do recall the later

quote and knew that the Cajun Matlin couple had written a letter in support of Libby but I was too disheartened to read it. Just further amplified my belief that he is a mole and a political 'Ho of some sorts. There was a quote (I think it was from H2OMan thread or comment) from Woodward's new book (another I distrust and even dislike) about Carville on election night 2004 giving out info to the WH that might have played a role in Kerry's early secession.

Thanks again!

[H2O Man]

74. State of Denial

(see pages 344-345)

"...(Mary Matalin) called him. 'Look, I know this is hard for you,' she told him sympathetically.

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it,' Carville said. 'I'm just telling you that's what they are talking about.'

"Matalin went to Cheney to report."

[WiseButAngrySara]

76. Thank you! This is a great thread. I keep checking back

for your 'conclusions' but I guess as yet, you've not favored any possible outcome?

[H2O Man]

77. Well, there is

one outcome I "favor"! (grin)

I think that, at this point, a person can make a good case for the possibility that Bush will pardon Libby, and an equally good case that he will not.

Since 2004, some DUers have said Bush would pardon anyone who was caught in the investigation. I understand and appreciate why they believe that. I have said that I do not thinbk that Bush will pardon Libby, though nothing would surprise me in this case.

[WiseButAngrySara]

79. LOL! I think we all favor that outcome. Let's hope that Bush

will want to maintain consistency, since he is such a devout and truthful 'christian', and never pardoned any death row criminal, even when there was ample evidence for a mistrial or wrong conviction. He had no trouble at all sending people to death without pardon, and in keeping with that philosophy, he continues to send innocents to death in Iraq. Hopefully he will remain consistent with Libby. :sarcasm:

[WiseButAngrySara]

75. For others who might be curious about the combination of Libby's

wife's politics as inferred from Matilda Matalin the Hen-Hun letter (first link) and the second link re: the F*bomb, here is the copy of the second link.

So what of the F-bomb from Libby’s wife? Who was she proposing to f**k?

With little opportunity to do anything to the jury (short of starting a nuclear war in the world they inhabit!), it seems unlikely that they were the target of her wrath. The prosecutors might be frustrated by a successful appeal, but they were just doing their jobs. A setback like having to go through a new trial, would hardly be considered a “f**king” to them. Prosecutors get paid for their work either way, and a new trial would actually give them an opportunity to bring out even more details of the underlying conspiracy!

To me, it sounds like the wife’s emotions probably only caused her to raise her voice at the end of a conversation that was overheard by reporters. I can easily imagine her saying something like “If they don’t pardon him, we’re going to f**k them!” In this case, “they” being Rove, Bush, Cheney, et al. as they were all still the ones being protected by Libby’s predicament.

This clearly makes the most sense, because Libby was now essentially down to only one last chance at a “get out of jail free” card, after being the only one to “put his neck in the meatgrinder!” If Bush doesn’t come through with a pardon, as purportedly promised to quash the politically dangerous spillover from a vigorous defense, then Libby could f**k them all by spilling his guts!

And Libby’s wife wanted “them” to know it!

[Patsy Stone]

45. Since they resemble the mob, I tend to think about them like the mob.

With a lot of paranoia and psychosis thrown in.

Libby has been caught, and the head of the family has disavowed any proof of his existence. As so many others have pointed out, this will all come down to a question of profit-and-loss. What is to be gained for Bush, personally, from a pardon? Not much.

How much does Bush care about the party? Karl cares a lot, but Bush? He never bothered to make friends with the Republicans in Congress, or any governors aside from his brother and, in the face of respected party members fleeing in droves, Bush continues with his psychotic ride towards world domination, the party be damned.

So, I don't think it benefits him personally to make the party happy by pardoning him, and he certainly doesn't listen to anyone within the party, except for maybe Karl and Laura. He's never going to run for another office, thus he's got no reason to be loyal to the party.

The other factor, again pointed out in many of the thoughtful posts in this thread, is Cheney. Personally, I thing they're on the outs, and unless Cheney has naked pictures of George, there's probably nothing that Cheney can do or say to make the Boy King do anything he doesn't want to.

So, that leaves us where? Back where you began: this will all come down to the Madness of King George and how he sees this affecting the great, storied, victorious history of his rule.

I don't think he'll deal with this until the last day, as an afterthought. Libby was caught and made a mess, and the omerta he swore includes the possible necessity of taking a turn in the slammer. I also wouldn't doubt that the Scooter Defense Fund is as much about getting Scooter "on his feet" after his stint as it was about PR during and after.

[bleever]

48. "Naked pictures of George..."

That was uncalled for.

[Patsy Stone]

55. Sorry

Can you ever forgive me?

[bleever]

58. If you can get letters from Bolton, Wolfowitz, Kissinger, et al.,

then no.

Otherwise, carry on.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

50. Cheney cannot lobby for a pardon.

If Cheney goes to Bush to argue for a pardon, it gives Fitz ammo for an obstruction of justice charge. Fitz knows Libby lied to the Grand Jury and the FBI. Why did Scooter lie? Of course he was protecting his boss. Fitz has at least enough information to suggest that the "code red" was issued by Cheney. So if Cheney lobbies for a pardon, he is directly aiding and abetting the commission of a felony, and one comitted on his behalf!

Cheney will not say a word in support of a pardon for this reason. He can only hope that Junior acts as he wishes. You can bet that The Prosecutor is on high alert for any sign that Cheney is trying to cover his own ass by talking to Bush, an only needs a memo or two to lock the case up tight!

[Me.]

51. But Who Would Tell Fitz

And agree to be a witness? Certainly not the baby *.

[H2O Man]

61. Cheney probably

wouldn't say anything directly to Bush. One of the VP's often-repeated sayings is, "You can't get in any trouble for something that you do not say." More, Cheney doesn't have to say a word -- surely George W. Bush knows that Dick Cheney wants Libby pardoned. And Cheney has other methods of making sure that Bush hears the message, loud and clear, from the Libby Support Group.

One rarely sees a good puppeteer's lips moving.

[Patsy Stone]

64. And Conyers is watching those lips:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1081736

Good morning.

[Patsy Stone]

54. It would never be put down in writing.

I imagine that conversation probably already happened, before the publicity, back when the two of them "testified". If Dick was going to make a public plea, it would, indeed, raise eyebrows. Whatever Cheney was going to say to Georgie has been said.

My point was that I saw two entities who could possibly influence Commander Cuckoobanana's decision, and he ain't listening to either of them. It's down to what's best for his "legacy", which is whatever he thinks that is at any given moment.

[bleever]

57. Brilliant,

but what if it's Dick and * verbal, no recording? Unprovable.

That's what the whole "lowering the bar" to the level of "you can't prove nothin'" is predicated on.

[rosesaylavee]

47. * is much like bullies I remember from school.

Those bullies however had a higher authority they were eventually required to answer to or obey. He doesn't. As president, he is the most powerful person in the world - and unlike other presidents, thoroughly disdains his service and responsibility to the American People and the rest of the world. He answers to no one and no ideal. He apparently has no conscience. (Please God continue to help us.)

I don't think he will pardon Libby because it would displease his pet Rove and, mostly, he doesn't have to pardon him. Who's going to make him? I think the only person he has listened to consistently has been Rove. I think Rove will only recommend pardoning if it somehow keeps the two of them safer than keeping Libby in prison.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

60. I believe it all rests on Libby

How loyal is he? How loyal will he stay, separated from his family? Will the aspens turn?

I don't know the answers. I don't think Bush & Cheney know either. But I do think that the visitors Libby receives once incarcerated will give clues even if not a word of their conversations is leaked.

My guess is that Libby's reward, if any, for keeping his mouth shut will not come in the form of a pardon. But if he shows signs of losing his resolve he may receive the get out of jail card. I can see the benefit of leaving him in the slammer if he talks. But since what he knows is all he has to bargain with, Libby's silence is the only thing Bush wants or needs. If he can get it without giving a pardon, that's what he'll do.

[Octafish]

66. Libby's family is vulnerable. He'll keep quiet.

Omerta is SOP for those inside the crime family.
Unlike the mafia, W and his cronies have no respect for civilians.

[spanone]

69. mr. bu$h* demands unfettered loyalty. Scooter was loyal to dick. i.e. no pardon. IMHO

[KoKo]

78. I read this and many replies on this post...

Have to say...I have no idea how this one will "play out." I think of Cat Claws Clinging to Board before they FALL!

Will the kitty make it or not.....

The amount of "Blow Back" from the NeoCons is incredible. It will be interesting to see what prevails.

I honestly don't even have a "gut" feeling on this one....

I think ...either way the ramifications will be enormous...but it makes my head split...and me tired..to think about what's next...:-(

Thanks for all your work on this...and the post. Better minds than "mine" are weighing in...It's GOOD!

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

81. For want of a better thread...

Alan Dershowitz is on CNN accusing Judge Walton of "pandering to the public opinion" in his sentencing of Scootie. He also says the Jugge was "childish" in his response (in the footnotes") to the lawyers who provided a brief challenging fitzgerald's credentials.

The nerve of these guys is so over the top self-important, that I am reminded of the words of Hannah Arendt "...the shattering banality of evil."