Bush, pope discuss treatment of Christians in Iraq - No mention of the current Crusade there

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/421170,bush060907.article

ROME---- President Bush said Saturday that and he and Pope Benedict XVI discussed the pontiff's deep worries that Christians in Iraq would not be embraced by the Muslim majority.

''We didn't talk about just war,'' Bush said in a news conference with Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi during a swing through Europe.

''He was concerned that the society that was evolving would not tolerate the Christian religion. ... He's worrisome about the Christians inside Iraq being mistreated by the Muslim majority.''

Bush met with the prime minister several hours after seeing the pope. The two men, meeting each other for the first time, appeared intent to look beyond their differences in Iraq. The pope, in his Easter message, had denounced the ''continual slaughter'' in Iraq and said that ''nothing positive'' is happening.

[bluerum]

1. OK. There it is then. Thousands of Iraqis have been killed and the

pointy hat guy says to the insane monkey decider that he is worried that his precious christian religion will not be tolerated by people who are being killed off by predominately christian nations.

Indeed.

Do you think the pointy hat guy is trying to tell the CHRISTIAN insane monkey decider that sponsoring a four year killing spree and a public lynching may not be a good public relations tactic for christianity?

[msongs]

2. catholic church has murdered many people in 2000 years nt

[alcuno]

8. We've cut way back on that and have asked for forgiveness.

We've given up much of our "evil doer" ways. And anyone who thinks that the Holy Father is on Mr. Bush's side on Iraq has not been paying attention.

[TahitiNut]

3. Funny how the Pope-and-the-Dope don't talk about the mistreatment of the "Muslim majority"

... by the foreign occupiers. Sure got a fucked-up sense of priorities. :grr:

[Flatulo]

13. In a civil war, everyone gets mistreated.

[TahitiNut]

14. Oh. I guess it's alright, then.

:eyes:

[Flatulo]

15. You know very well that I did not even imply that.

The gist of this thread is that the Pope is somehow complicit in the killing of Muslims in Iraq.

That is BS and just more PC Christian bashing that is so fashionable here.

PS - I am an avowed agnostic.

[TahitiNut]

16. Seems blame-shifting and finger-pointing is a fad these days.

The "leader of the free world" sits down with the "spiritual leader of one billion Catholics" and talk about how 'those Muslims' (over whom neither of them have ANY legitimate influence) might mistreat Christians.

Now let me get this straight. These two guys have enormous control over a billion people and the most powerful military on the planet ... some significant influence of the behavior of both ... and they talk about the possible behavior of people they don't lead?? What's the fucking sense in that? Why don't they talk about how they could influence the current behavior of people and forces they DO lead and stop the killing they DO have some responsibility for?

Sounds to me like they engaged in a small, elite circle-jerk and got off on how it was "them people's fault."

Insofar as "bashing" anyone ... I don't care what flag or pulpit people hide behind. Bad behavior is bad behavior ... and failing in meeting one's moral leadership duties is wrong no matter how it's cut.

[Flatulo]

17. Unfortunately, they don't control events in Iraq.

The invasion, or perhaps more correctly the mis-managed occupation, has led to events spiraling out of control there (unless one believes the conspiracy theories that claim that we desire chaos in Iraq).

The most powerful military on the planet is also not in control of events in Iraq. More proof of the law of unintended consequences.

Sorry, but I just think it's disingenuous to suggest that the Pope can stop or reduce the killing of Muslims in Iraq when the overwhelming bulk of the killing is Muslim on Muslim. What influence does the Pope have over Muslims? As you stated, very little.

And I for one do not believe that the mere sight of Christian invaders in their country causes Iraqis to wig out and start killing each other in such staggering numbers.

In my opinion, the primary by-product of religion is lots of corpses, but in this case, the strategy to stop or reduce the killing will have to come from Muslims.

[Davis_X_Machina]

4. The Church condemned, and contiunes to oppose...

....Bush's Iraq adventure in no uncertain terms, though you wouldn't know that from reading DU.

[NNN0LHI]

5. Where at that link does the church condemn the US occupation of Iraq?

I can't find it.

Don

[alcuno]

7. When you say "nothing positive" is happening in Iraq.

The Holy Father doesn't necessarily condemn the occupation (the Church said it was a bad idea from the beginning), but it's pretty clear that the pope thinks we are terrible occupiers.

I think the Church's current position is the "you broke it you fix it" one.

[KG]

11. when the church prohibits catholics from taking part, then i'll take its 'condemnation' seriously.

until then it's just blather.

[madrchsod]

6. what about Rwanda ?

oh those people were poor black africans that had nothing to contribute to the catholic church`s coffers.i`m not sure which one is more disgusting

[bamacrat]

9. I hate how Christians are the only people regarded as human by many.

What about our treatment of Muslims? Trying to inject a religion into an uber religious place such as the Middle East is not the thing to do, instead of praising the "Christians" there why try and find common ground among the Muslims. If we keep trying to press our religious beliefs or way of governance on others who do not want it we will just be back in the same place as we are now.

[AwareOne]

10. Two Nazis get together to chat

[Flatulo]

12. Respectfully, I think you folks are on the wrong track...

The current civil war in Iraq doesn't have much to do with Christianity, other than the obvious connection that a mostly Christian nation triggered the conflict. I don't believe that it was ever intended to be the next crusade. It's about resources.

The Christians in Iraq, who ironically were pretty much left alone by Saddam, are just one more group caught up in the civil war between the Sunni and Shi'a sects. Sadly, they too are getting caught up in all the killing.

As I recall, the Pope was very vocal in his opposition to the invasion.

[NNN0LHI]

18. Maybe you could provide some quotes from the current pope discussing his opposition to the invasion

Because I can't find any.

I did find this though:

http://nationalcatholicreporter.org/update/bn030305.htm

Vatican asks Condoleezza Rice to help stop a sex abuse lawsuit

Alongside predictable exchanges on Iraq, the Middle East and religious liberty, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice in her Feb. 8 visit to the Vatican also received an unexpected request -- to intervene in a U.S. lawsuit naming the Holy See as the defendant in a sex abuse case.

Church sources told NCR that Rice was asked by Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican's Secretary of State, whether the United States government could stop a class-action lawsuit currently before a United States District Court in Louisville, Ky., that seeks to hold the Vatican financially responsible for the sexual abuse of minors.

Sources told NCR that Rice explained that under American law, foreign states are required to assert claims of sovereign immunity themselves before U.S. courts.

Vatican spokesperson Joaquin Navarro-Valls, asked by NCR for comment, responded March 2: "It's obvious and reasonable that the Holy See would present its positions as a sovereign entity to the American State Department, and recall the immunity for its acts that international law anticipates."

It's not the first time, according to observers, that the Vatican has asked the State Department for help on a legal matter.

[Flatulo]

20. The current Pope was not the Pope when the invasion occurred.

John Paul died in 2005. But the position of the Vatican was clearly anti-invasion.

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/living/17350414.htm

<snip>

The Vatican considered the war in Afghanistan to be justified, but not the one in Iraq.

<snip>

As I've stated in this thread and elsewhere, I don't give a rat's ass about the Pope or Catholics in general. I am an equal opportunity agnostic.

Did you ever see the South Park episode about the church's sex scandal? I nearly died laughing.

[DFW]

19. I'd be more impressed if........

....the Pope had been concerned about the treatment of religious minorities everywhere.

"He was concerned that the society that was evolving would not tolerate the Christian religion"
Tariq Aziz, one of Saddam's top deputies, is a Christian. And as we all know, Saddam was the very
epitome of tolerance, right?

For that matter, back home in Texas, most people aren't very tolerant of your being anything else.
The Pope would have gained a lot more credibility if he had included the intolerance of the many
not-so-very-Christian Christians in Bush's back yard. As the head of the Catholic Chruch, I don't
expect him to be recruiting people for Rabinnical school, but as I recall the message of Jesus was
supposed to be one of tolerance for all, not just those who believed he was the son of God.