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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:16 PM
Original message
We Had Abortions
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 07:25 PM by Madspirit
This article is not new BUT the petition is still ongoing. At the bottom, follow the link to read more stories and to sign the petition. I've signed!..Lee

We Had Abortions
These women invite you to join them in a campaign for honesty and freedom.

In its 1972 debut issue, Ms. Magazine ran a bold petition in which 53 well-known U.S. women declared that they had undergone abortions—despite state laws rendering the procedure illegal. These women were following the example of a 1971 manifesto signed by 343 prominent French women, who also had declared they had abortions.

Even then, to many it seemed absurd that the government could deny a woman sovereignty over her own body. It was even more absurd that a recent abortion ban was passed into law by the South Dakota legislature, although it was resoundingly rejected by voters in November 2006. Whatever happens in South Dakota, 17 other states now have trigger laws or pre-Roe v. Wade laws that could automatically ban abortion if the Supreme Court were to reverse Roe. Myriad restrictions already limit access to abortion in the U.S. for poor women, young women and women in the military.

We know it is time again for women of conscience to stand up and speak truth to power.

At the time of the original Ms. petition, illegal abortions were causing untold suffering in the United States, especially for poor women who had to resort to unsafe self-induced or back-alley abortions. Today, in the developing nations, approximately 70,000 women and girls die each year from botched and unsafe abortions. Another 500,000 needless maternal deaths occur. Most of this suffering and loss could be prevented. U.S. international family-planning policies contribute to the death toll: first, by conditioning U.S. aid on a global gag rule that prevents medical workers from even giving out information on abortion (let alone providing the service); second, by withholding or providing inadequate funds; and finally, by funding “abstinence-only” rather than comprehensive sex education.

We are now starting a new petition, beginning with the names of some of the original 1972 signers. They signed to save lives and to spare other women the pain of socially imposed guilt.” Their purpose was “to repeal archaic and inhuman laws.” They recognized that because of the “social stigma still wrongly attached to abortion” many would not be able to sign publicly. But they invited all women to sign—“to help eliminate the stigma.”

We recognize that, still, not every woman will be able to sign—33 years after Roe— even though abortion is a very common, necessary and important procedure for millions of women in the U.S. But if a multitude of women step forward publicly, and more and more continue to join us, we will transform the public debate.

We know that women who have had abortions have spoken out many times during the last 33 years, and millions of women and men have marched in countless rallies and demonstrations. It is time to speak out again—in even larger numbers—and to make politicians face their neighbors, influential members of the community and, yes, their own family members who have had abortions. We cannot, must not, lose the right to safe and accessible abortion or access to birth control—for U.S. women and the women of the world. Just as in 1972, Ms. will send the signed petitions to the White House, members of Congress and state legislators. We will also post the petition online. And we ask signers to make a contribution so Ms. can promote the petition and provide needed funds to fight abortion bans and support targeted abortion providers, such as the sole remaining women’s clinic in Mississippi.

Your name and your voice will make a difference.

To sign the petition and read more stories, follow this link:


http://www.msmagazine.com/fall2006/abortionmag.asp

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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nice
Recs are nice but let's definitely keep it kicked...
Lee
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for taking my suggestion & Thanks for posting the link.
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 07:33 PM by IndyOp
I admire Ms. Magazine's efforts here.

Edited to reflect Madspirit's edit.

"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion - When the Anti-Choice Chose" - a powerful essay that illustrates WHY Ms. Magazine's effort are important...

Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion.

In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Point Taken and Remedied..Thanks...
I had not even thought of that. I was just trying to get attention for it.
Lee
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. delete posted in wrong place
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 07:59 PM by Tierra_y_Libertad
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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
83. This is so true
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 01:48 AM by FloridaJudy
I worked in a facility that did abortions. We had a hard-core group of about two dozen picketers that would show up the days we did the procedures. I was constantly surprised that many of the female protesters would come to us as clients the moment they found themselves in a sticky position. I also know that the most vocal male protester had sent his wife and his girlfriend to us, money in hand for the same reason. When I asked these people why they were having abortions when they so vocally opposed them the answer was always "Well my situation is different.." Of course, it never was. And the next week, these people would be back screaming at us to stop "killing babies". There were times when the staff were sorely tempted to violate our medical ethics and go out there and denounce their hypocrisy, but we never did. When it came down to it, we were true to our standards.

This sort of thinking confounds me. I could never in a million years picture myself as picketing an abortion provider. But if I did, and then found myself inconveniently pregnant, I would never patronize the very place I'd picketed, let alone go back and picket it again. I would travel half-way across the country if necessary to keep it a secret.

Most of these people seem to have some weird mental disconnect mechanism that protects them from recognizing that they're violating their own beliefs, rather like those vociferous preachers and politicians who denounce the sexual habits of others while doing worse things themselves.

edited for spelling
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. No time to read this now... but a K&R
I will get to this as time allows.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kick!
K & R
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. k&r
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Flame away but I don't think its anything to brag or boast about.
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 07:42 PM by Peregrine Took
I wouldn't want to have it on my conscience, that's for sure and I think its to its eternal detriment that the Democratic Party is wedded to the hip with the "pro choice" people. There should always be room for another opinion in a "big tent."
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Bjornsdotter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That's why it's called CHOICE


....and I hope it's still available if you ever need it.
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The point is not to brag or boast.
The point is to humanize women who have had abortions, as anti-choice people seek to dehumanize them.
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Bjornsdotter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Exactly n/t



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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Nicely Put...n/t
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
64. Yes. Women's lives are
precious too.
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
85. The "humanize" aspect works with any minority issue.....
When my very anti-gay brother learned I was a lesbian his views changed. Interestingly, his initial defense was, "well, that's different because you are my sister."
Same with the abortion issue.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
99. Very well put
I was trying to think of how to respond but that's perfect.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. You're response makes no sense.
Why would we flame? I don't think anyone here or in that petition thinks that it's something to brag or boast about. Where did you get that impression? :shrug:

You're either grossly misunderstanding what's being said here, or you're purposely putting forth a disingenuous straw-man argument.

And, notwithstanding your implication to the contrary, there is room in the "big tent". The Democratic Party refuses membership to no one. In fact it can't legally refuse membership to anyone.
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Peregrine Took Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. For non-violent people its the only way to live a truly principled life, in my
opinion.

I think my view IS being flamed/attacked and its that immediate knee jerk reaction of the Democratic Party that I hate.

Great progressive Democrats like Marcy Kaptur, who would be a wonderful candidate on a national ticket, can't even be CONSIDERED because of her pro-life stance. Where's the "liberalism"?

Its the Seamless Garment Theory that can guide a person through a moral life. Protect all life from beginning to end.

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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. We Do Protect All Life
We do protect all life from beginning to end and it begins on one's birthday. Unfortunately, most like you, don't give a flying piece of crap about all the poor little poverty-stricken babies once they are born.

...and go start your own thread.
Lee
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. ...and actually
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 08:19 PM by Madspirit
No, the Democratic Party does NOT completely welcome you. THE Democratic Party has an official pro-choice position. It's part of their platform. You may be welcome by some here but do keep in mind, the Democratic Party IS pro-choice...officially and this site pretty much mirrors the Democratic "line".

I will promise you this. I will NEVER make you have an abortion now YOU can keep your nose out from between MY legs.

Lee
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. "Liberalism" that allows people the choice of a legal vs illegal abortion?
That liberalism? Is that what you think is missing? Allowing the choice rather than restricting the choice?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. psst, if you don't want to be flamed, don't start post with "flame away"
just a hint.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
47. Please realize that you are free to live your
life as you see fit....but others may want to live theirs as well. Are you proposing Compulsory Motherhood? Is your aim to bring into the world more unwanted children? The state of Ohio alone already has over 10,000 children in foster care.

And how many more humans can our planet really handle?

Maybe we should be focusing on the other side of the equation....why aren't you demanding that males ejaculate responsibly? They, too, have a choice to make.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. Or maybe we should say that what people do with their own bodies isn't anyone else's
god-damn business, and if folks are so obsessed with other people's sex lives and activities that they need to play self-righteous control freak, they should consult a psychiatrist.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #60
107. Yep....those folks sure seem to have the
ultimate in control issues. Sometimes I think the control freak women know they are oppressed by the patriarchy and the only 'dog they can kick' is another woman....they're too afraid to face the 'master.' It's one of my theories in trying to understand how women can be so cruel to other women.

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DKRC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #107
123. You just described my Mother perfectly.
She was far worse than my Father in that regard, but then he didn't have to do much. She got her "privileges" from keeping her foot on my neck for him. Sometimes literally.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #123
137. I'm sorry to hear that....
I'm lucky to have some cool women in my family...but there's a couple of them that I could do without.

I just wish the control freaks could remove their blinders...maybe it's just too scarey for them???
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DKRC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #137
139. Thanks, but having her made me an excellent Mom!
It would have been easier on me with a good role model rather than a bad example, but I worked with what I was given. I go with my instincts & on the rare occasion they fail me I simply think "What would my Mother do?" and I do the exact opposite.
It works, my daughter is 13 and knows she's loved and valued for who she is & who she's becoming.


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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #139
148. There is alot to said for
'learning by bad example!' Good for you....and your daughter.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #53
68. but lord help us if we harm a stem cell............ HA! Welcome to DU!
I spit a little beverage on the keyboard there.

:rofl:
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twenty4blackbirds Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #68
79. k n/t
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
57. So, uh, I take it you think sperms and unfertilized eggs should have rights under the 14th amendment
then?
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. That's because anti-choice by its very nature is not inclusive.
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 12:27 AM by grace0418
You can't include those who wish to exclude. Anti-choice seeks to exclude those who want to make decisions for their own bodies.

Pro-choice allows individual women to decide what's best for them. That *includes* you deciding that you would not want to have an abortion on your conscience. Honestly, I don't know if I could go through with it either. Thankfully, I never had to make the choice. But I cannot in good conscience tell other women what choice they should make for themselves.

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. I don't think that he will ever need to get one anyway.
noting that the poster's gender is 'undeclared' on the profile, and 'Peregrine Took' is a male character from Tolkein.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Well, since he or she said they wouldn't want that on their conscience I feel okay
in hypothetically saying what I said. Of course if the poster is a male, his argument is even that much more absurd because he will never have to experience pregnancy.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. poster complained elsewhere of menopausal symptoms.
Search showed mixed reviews.
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tofurkey Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
118. Yeah, I always shake my head
and roll my eyes when I hear whining about how "other points of view" aren't being acknowledged when those "points of view" are in-and-of-themselves exclusive. It drips with so much irony I need a towel.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
81. What, exactly, would a non-kneejerk reaction look like?
If you're going to come in here using meaningless rhetorical nonsense phrases like "knee jerk" then you shouldn't be expecting a friendly response. In fact, some people might start to suspect that you're working out of the Republican play book. I'm not saying that you are, just that it makes people suspicious.

And in spite of what you're trying to imply, "liberalism" does not mean the wishy-washy acceptance of all viewpoints as equally valid.

If you want to argue against abortion rights then go right ahead, it's a free country. But when you start out with a bunch of rhetorical nonsense about "knee-jerk" and "liberalism" rather than just clearly stating your beliefs, then you should expect a hostile reaction.

But of course, some people might suspect that a hostile reaction is exactly what you're looking for so as to derail the conversation and prove the untrue stereotype of hostile, hateful liberals.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. I like how that poster started with "flame away", then complains is getting flamed.
I think you are right in your assessment.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
98. It's not "pro-life"
it's "anti-choice." We need to be accurate in our descriptions.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #98
108. Anti having the choice of getting a legal abortion rather than illegal one.
Women have gotten abortions forever. Having the choice of getting a legal one is important.
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #98
161. I prefer pro-birth, since the actual birth is all they care about. After that, you're on your own.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
104. Or the Seamless Garment Theory makes it easier not to have to think and to more easily
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 12:46 PM by Iris
dismiss the suffering and hardship of others because, hey!, it's all just part of your "Seamless Garment Theory."

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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
126. Ah, so then you're the spokesperson for all non-violent people
great.
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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
135. And how many so-called "pro-lifers" would protect already living women?
Or any other life?

You may be genuine, but most people who call themselves "pro-life" are really "pro-birth" and not much else.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
151. Ahem.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. You say "the 'pro choice' people" as if you're holding something between your thumb and index
and holding your nose with the other hand.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. I've Had An Abortion
...and I AM proud of it because it was a difficult decision BUT the absolutely correct one...NO I WILL NOT DEBATE THAT WITH YOU...and because of it, I was able to have a life. :woohoo:

Lee
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. Acknowledging is not bragging or boasting.
Sort of like when famous people acknowledge their positive HIV status, it humanizes issues.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. I won't flame, but I'll share.
I know many women who have had abortions. I don't know any who boast and brag.

To find oneself pregnant in the wrong circumstance is a devastating event. Whether because a young girl believes "it can't happen to me" in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, whether it is a failed method of birth control, a rape, a relationship gone bad, or a health crisis, women don't have abortions without thought.

I remember when Ms. Magazine ran that issue. You see, I'm an only child because of my mother's illegal abortion.

I was 3. My father was no longer in the picture. She was a single, blue-collar, working mom with NO EXTENDED FAMILY at all. No parents, grandparents, siblings. She had an affair with a married man. He couldn't marry her; he wasn't going to support her.

Yes, it was irresponsible to have the affair. Not unusual, though, for a young woman raised in an abusive household, led from early childhood to believe that the only thing any man would ever value her for would be her housekeeping skills and sex. It's a vicious, self-fulfilling cycle.

So, already having one toddler to raise on her own, she decided that she couldn't care for another child. She didn't want to go through with the pregnancy, either. She'd lose her job, and how would she support herself and the child she already had? She had no family to turn to, having left the abusive foster home she was raised in behind.

She had an illegal abortion. She almost died. I remember the fear that she was never coming home; I remember the hospital, I remember the neighbor, who we barely knew, caring for me. I'm glad she didn't die. What would have happened to me then? She lived, but with such internal damage that she never conceived again.

My mother has never been a "prominent" woman. Her story wouldn't ever make Ms. or any other magazine. If she'd died, she would have been a single line obit, with no notice taken. She is important to me, though. I am a strong supporter of choice, and Roe v. Wade, for that reason. For my mom.

For all the women out there who, for whatever reason, find themselves having to make a choice.

I think the nation needs to remember just why abortion is legal.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Exactly!
Exactly and right from the article:

"At the time of the original Ms. petition, illegal abortions were causing untold suffering in the United States, especially for poor women who had to resort to unsafe self-induced or back-alley abortions. Today, in the developing nations, approximately 70,000 women and girls die each year from botched and unsafe abortions. Another 500,000 needless maternal deaths occur."

I would have committed suicide if I had not been able to have an abortion.
Lee
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #35
72. A girl I knew tried to do just that, shot the 'baby" with her fathers gun
her 8 year old nephew found her on the bathroom floor with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the abdomen.

She destroyed her reproductive system along with her bladder and urinary system.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. If I could recommend a reply -
this would be the one - you story is truly inspiring and worthy.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
88. Thank you
:hug:
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
100. Wow!
Quite a story. Of which hundreds of thousands of variations exist. Thank you for sharing it.
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Did you read anything posted? There is no bragging. Your comment makes no sense and is, in itself,
flamebait, which is interesting because you being with "Flame away."

Pro-choice means that you stay out of people's personal business that takes place between them, their doctor and anyone with whom they choose to confide in. I'm proudly pro-choice. I've not had an abortion and financial circumstances and family situations put me in a position to not have one outside of a life-threatening emergency. However, if the pro-birth movement has their way, there will be no medical emergency abortions, either. Mind you, the choice we're taking away is the choice of the lower-middle class and poor. The wealthy and rich and connected will continue to procure any medical procedures they want, as they have the money and the means to do what they will.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. I had an abortion 29 years ago and I am glad.
I have managed to not contribute to the overpopulation of the Earth. I also have economic and personal freedom.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. Yeah, (some of) what the newbie said
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 08:29 PM by sampsonblk
I support the right. But its always unfortunate and never anything to cheer about when its excercised.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I Cheer About Being Alive
If I had not been able to have an abortion I would have committed suicide. Did you even read the stories at the link? This isn't about cupcake parties. This is about being glad to be alive.
Lee
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. And self-determination.
Funny how the anti-choicers never consider a woman's mental health.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. *Always*?
I doubt that.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Choosing a legal vs an illegal abortion is unfortunate?
Exercising that choice is never anything to cheer about?
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
111. Never-nt
nt
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. abortion is a complicated issue, Choice is not.
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Bjornsdotter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
50. Always Unfortunate?


....you don't have a clue and couldn't be more wrong.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
58. Do you have a uterus? If not, why is it any of your business AT ALL if someone else who DOES
thinks it IS something to "cheer" about?

I can't fucking fathom for the life of me why it is anyone's business beyond the woman in whom the pregnancy is taking place. But since anti-choice busybodies, would-be sex cops and big hair televangelists in our society INSIST on trying to criminalize womens' reproductive decisions, I say if women want to stand up and say they had abortions without feeling they need to be ashamed or apologetic, Fucking BRAVO for them.

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Umbram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
117. Agreed.
I'm starting to support pro-life candidates as well as pro-choice ones because abortion is none of my business. I'll focus on the issues that ARE my business: the environment, the economy etc. I was once pro-choice, but after being told so often by women that the issue isn't the business of men, I'll focus on what IS my business.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. I am hoping you forgot the sarcasm smiley.
Hoping this is sarcasm, in which case it is well done. If not: Having the choice be available is everyone's business. Whether any individual choses to use that choice is up to the individual.

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Umbram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #119
125. Here's the thing.
There are ton of good arguments for being pro-choice. Suggesting that certain anatomical parts are necessary to enter into an ethical debate on ANY issue is sexist and immature.

Who can decide if an abortion is right for a specific woman? THAT WOMAN. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that a man should not lecture a woman on whether or not abortion is right but another woman should be able to. Here's what I replied to:

"Do you have a uterus? If not, why is it any of your business AT ALL if someone else who DOES thinks it IS something to "cheer" about?"

This means that if you are a woman, you can be judgmental about women who have had abortion, but if you are a male you can't be. In other words, your point of view is valid based on your gender.

It is my opinion that nobody should be judgmental about that. It is also my point of view that such sexist arguments ONLY work one way - and that is HURTING the pro-choice message.

Yes, i was being sarcastic in my post. I have no intention of changing my voting habits.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. Gotcha and I agree
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #125
142. We are on the same page. What you say here is my view as well.
See my other post. I probably could have phrased what I said in the first post better.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #117
141. Ha, Ha. Way to deliberately misconstrue what I said.
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 11:12 PM by impeachdubya
First off, I'm a man. Doh!

If you're railing agaist "those women" who say it's not the business of men to be pro-choice, from my personal experience that's a misunderstanding of the position of most pro-choice women. I went to the big pro-choice march in DC in April of 2004, and I didn't have a single woman tell me that I wasn't welcome to help stand up for individual rights and freedom.

Secondly, I don't think it's personally any of my business if two gay people want to get married, or if interracial couples want to get married.. does that mean I "don't care" about those issues? Does that mean that I'm saying that I should "butt out" of the drive for people's rights?

No.

What I'm saying is, it's not my business to tell other people what they can or cannot do with their lives and their own bodies. It's VERY SIMPLE. Should men have "a say" in abortion? In the general, yeah, men should be willing like everyone else to stand up for freedom and reproductive rights. In the specific? NO. No man should be "in charge" of deciding whether a specific abortion takes place because NO MAN HAS A UTERUS. Individual women should be able to make that decision, but only in one circumstance- the circumstance involving their own body. I think "pro-life" women are just as full of shit as "pro-life" men. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. It's as simple as that.

Edit: I just read your other post. We're on the same page. I get what you were saying before. Peace.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #58
134. All too easy - because I vote
I don't steal either. But I have a right to care if a guy goes on a bankrobbing spree don't I? Why is it my business that Paris Hilton gets her sorry ass in jail like everyone else?

Because I am American, and this is a (reportedly) democratic country. Each one of us who reaches voting age is indirectly responsible for the enactment and enforcement of national policies. My vote and yours are going to affect abortion policy quite a bit. That's why its my business and yours.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #134
140. So, a woman exercising reproductive choice over her own body is like a bank robber...
...exactly how?

No, really. I'd like an answer. If someone robs a bank, they are stealing money from other people. A woman who decides to terminate a pregnancy, or a woman who wants to use the birth control pill, or two consenting adult gay or lesbian citizens who want to have sex with each other in the privacy of their own home... HOW IS THAT ANY OF YOUR BUSINESS?

How, precisely, is any of that akin to "robbing a bank"?

My point isn't whether or not you CAN influence the rights of other people to control their own bodies through your vote- you can. My point is, that you shouldn't be able to. What someone does with their own body is their own god-damn business. And abortion, particularly as it has stood since Roe v. Wade, where the vast majority are done in the first trimester, should be between a woman and her doctor. Not between a woman, her doctor, and a bunch of dudes she's never met.

Is that "easy" enough for you to understand?
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #140
149. Not at all
First, I fully understand, thank you.

I will ignore your questions about the bank robber. We both know the point I was making.

Abortion policies affect more than the just the mother. In a lot of cases, it affects the father and the child. In fact, I've never met a man who wasn't glad his mother didn't do this to him.

Is that "easy" enough for you to understand?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #149
150. Maybe you'll ignore my questions about the bank robber because you can't answer them
and you know it's a completely bogus equivalence.

"I've never met a man who wasn't glad his mother didn't do this to him".. Well, have you met any pro-choice men? (I'm a pro-choice man) I'm glad my mother has the right to control her own body, even though she's well past childbearing age.

As for "it affects the father and the child." Okay, can we please define "Child", here? Is the premise you're asking to be accepted as gospel fact that the second a sperm and an egg meet, the fertilized egg is magically transmogrified into a "child"? I know that is the central conceit of the entire "pro-life" movement. But let's take that ball and run with it, shall we? IVF clinics.. are the people who work in them mass murderers? Because modern fertility treatments invariably create far more fertilized eggs (or, in your lexicon, "children") than can ever be implanted. They are throwing out "children" every day!

Or maybe you're fully consistent on protecting "life", and believe that unfertilized eggs and sperm are "children", too. Which makes pretty much every fertile man walking the Earth today a genocidal maniac that dwarfs Stalin & Hitler, on a weekly basis.

I'm sure, since you present yourself as knowledgeable about this topic, that you're well aware that the vast majority of abortions in this country take place in the first trimester. If you don't accept the "pro-life" logic that a fertilized egg is a "baby" (or, as you put it, a "child") -thus also necessitating the criminalization of the birth control pill, which they believe kills "children", as well- then from what you wrote in your post you obviously believe that fetuses in the first trimester are, again, "children". If you don't believe that the Birth Control Pill or IVF clinics are likewise murdering "children" who are being "affected" by their use, perhaps you can explain at what point during the first trimester the fertilized egg becomes a "child". Now most people, myself included, believe that there is a continuum of life from sperm and egg to fertilized egg to embryo to fetus to baby, and that particularly along the early part of that continuum the rights of the woman in whom the pregnancy is taking place take precedence over any "rights" the potential life, or sperm, or egg, or small clump of cells, may be considered to "have". And most pro-choice people think the system we've had since Roe v. Wade does a good job of weighing those considerations.

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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #150
154. You win
Uncle.

You have seized upon a minor point (bankrobbers) in my first post. Since you asked, as I composed my post, I picked a few examples out of the air to use for illustration. Since I didn't want some dimwit to pick one of my examples and go off on a tangent, I decided to use the bankrobber example - figuring even a schoolchild would understand that bankrobbers were not specifically important to my point. I apologize for my mistake. Its been a long couple of days.

As for the political point you went on to make, reproduction is not only a political issue. Its also a human one. I fully understand your point about the development of the egg and the trimester issue. This is why I am not a religious fundamentalist. But why can't you also see the human side of the issue? Its all politics and science to you.

But what's funny is, what you said is very complicated and most non-DU people don't understand it. How is it you have made yourself so aware of the most minute details of the political issue, but cannot see the simplest details of the human side of this? How can it have escaped you that the woman is 'with child' once she becomes pregnant?

Today, June 11th, there are husbands and wives all over the world jumping for joy that they have conceived. By your view, they are jumping for nothing. All they have conceived is a fertilized egg.

Well, there's a reason we lose on this issue. The whole world knows that when a woman gets pregnant she's going to have a baby. And if the jealous ex-boyfriend should come along and shoot her, he ought to be punished for two murders.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #154
164. It doesn't escape me. But there is the human side, and the legislative side.
I'm not just a pro-choice American with a decent understanding of the politics and science of reproduction. This issue is framed in a political and legislative context. The political questions around abortion invariably involve people either legislatively making that decision for others or not, and I fall on the side of people being able to make those decisions for themselves. Unapologetically.

But before you extrapolate who I am and what I do or don't understand on the basis of this thread, let me say that I'm also a parent. I, too, know what it is to be overjoyed at seeing the little line on the pregnancy test. I know what a rush it is. I know what it means. But I also understand that in my own case, that joy was always compounded by the fact that this was a deliberate move and a very wanted development. It didn't have any "oh, fuck" component to it. It didn't have any "Shit, we don't have health insurance and we're about to be evicted" component. It didn't have "What are we gonna tell your psycho-ass dad who beats you?"

There IS a human component to all of this, certainly, and if we really want to speak out about "life" and protecting it and valuing it, in my opinion some of the things to do would be to tirelessly support a Single Payer Health Care System and a Liveable Minimum Wage, so the idea of a poor single woman bringing an unplanned kid into this world wouldn't be such a cruel joke in this country. We (and our allegedly pro-life compatriots across the aisle, in particular) would be out there working to make sure contraception was covered by health plans. That sex ed in schools was reality, and not abstinence, based, and it included contraceptive availability. That the Birth Control Pill wasn't being held hostage by Jesus-drunk pharmacists, and instead was available OTC.

But I want to make one point exceptionally clear. First off, "We" don't "lose on this issue". That is a media-spun lie that goes along with this bullshit about the all-powerful "values voter". The American People are overwhelmingly pro-choice. That is a FACT. "We lose on this issue"? Who says? CNN? Fuck 'em. I was at the March for Women's lives in DC in April of 2004... 1.2 Million Americans Showed up, and it was the Largest Peaceable Gathering on The Mall In American History. CNN blew off the march and spent the day chasing around drunk Bush voters at a car race in a quest to profile the "Nascar Voter". The crap about how "we" "lose" because of the pro-choicers, or the gays, or the atheists is a lie. That's all it is- it's just a bald-faced LIE.

We WIN on this issue.

Not only that, but (as the Terri Schiavo fiasco proved to the GOP) the American People are far more socially libertarian than the conventional wisdom waterheads want to give them credit for. Where we fail, if at all, is not by being "too" stridently in favor of individual freedom and liberty, we fail by not being consistently and strongly enough in favor of them.

If anything, we "lose" on not standing up strongly enough for the very powerful mind-your-own-business keep-your-personal-views-out-of-my-shit streak in the American Electorate. In My Opinion.

Peace.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
121. its always unfortunate
sez you

:eyes:
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
136. Would you also characterize it as unfortunate..
when a man masturbates or when a woman sheds an egg? After all, we're talking about organisms with the potential to become human under the proper circumstances, just like an embryo.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
42. I'll say it loud and proud!
I had an abortion! I did it because it was the best choice for all involved. I don't regret it one whit! And, I can't wait to have kids now that I am more mature, and older, and in a better place physically, emotionally, etc. :)
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
49. So share your opinion, rather than your disdain
That would be refreshing!

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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
51. Ignorance is bliss. It's so fun to look down your nose with such disdain.
The only "moral" abortion is mine. It's a real decision women do not make in haste and do not "boast" or "brag" about it. They share stories of courage and strength to help each other.

And, yes - the Democratic party (and all others) ought to be wed at the hip with choice. Your morality is not mine. Ever. Opinions? Sure. But if you try to fuck with my choices and the choice of over half of the American population - you can get right the fuck out of my tent.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. BULLSHIT. MOST AMERICANS are PRO CHOICE.
I think it's to the "eternal detriment" of the GOP that they are run by people who want to OUTLAW the BIRTH CONTROL PILL.

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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
65. I have room for your opinion as long as you keep it the fu ^k away from my uterus.
And in return, I promise not to lobby against healthcare for you or your family for diabetes, stroke, heart disease, cancer, or emphysema........

Due to the CHOICES, DECISIONS, and LIFESTYLES you/they led with

Obesity
Smoking
Drinking
Poor Diet
Sitting on Your Ass
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
80. Point that finger somewhere else
Your condescension is wearying.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
89. I think women sharing their story is not "bragging" and if anything
the women who do come forward are to be applauded for their honesty.

It is the anti-choice zealots who have consistently propped up this image of some wanton hussy bragging about her abortions when that is not the case.

Women who have abortions come from every walk of life...they are young, old, mothers, single, ...but they are all in a situation where having a baby is not an option for them...
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
93. Wow, you really don't fucking get it, do you?
Amazing.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
94. No one's bragging or boasting about having had an abortion. They are stating a fact of their
own lives. I had a legal abortion 30 years ago and my conscience is just fine, thank you very much. I had a choice of bringing a severely physically and mentally handicapped baby into the world or not, and in my compassion, I chose to not carry on my pregnancy.

Until you have worked in someone else's shoes, you have no right to judge anybody.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
143. Oh, there's room for opinions
But when your opinion is to take away choice that leaves us with only one opinion, yours. See the problem?


There should always be room for another opinion in a "big tent."
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
147. Here's An Opinion - Don't Have An Abortion
I wouldn't want you to have it on your widdle conscience, either. In fact, I don't think it's proper for anyone other than you to make decisions about your body, no matter how strongly I disagree with your decision. I may think your decisions are moronic, but I value far more your right to make them. How about that? Strange idea, isn't it - I disagree with you strongly, yet I value YOUR rights anyway.

You might try it sometime.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
155. The site whose name we dare not speak is up and running
again... I think you are lost in more ways than one....
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Bjornsdotter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kick and rec


....fighting this fight until my last breath.

Cheers :hug:
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you
Another kick.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's an "issue" that should be a non-issue. Control of one's own body is a basic human right. K&R
But, as the bumper sticker said, "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

BTW - I'm a straight, white, married male, married to a straight, white, woman who never had an abortion, and is a recent EX-Catholic over the abortion/gay issues.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I love ex-Catholics
I know that's a weird thing to say but my girlfriend is one too. Some of the most thoughtful people I know are ex-Catholics.

...and thank-you for your support.
Lee
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Well, I'm an ex-Catholic too.
But, I gave up on it at an early age, when one of the priests gave me the "God works in mysterious ways" run-around. My wife, OTOH, went through the entire system, even considered becoming a nun. It was no small thing for her to give up after 73 years.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. My Favorite
My favorite college professor...my psychology professor...was a Jesuit priest. We became great friends and I used to go over and eat with the priests sometimes. They really did have one refrigerator for food and one for beer. This was back in the Viet Nam war era and many were actively working against the war. A lot of noted leftist Catholics from that era.
Lee
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Yes, indeed.
The Berrigan brothers. Liberation theology in Latin America. The Irish nurses an doctors that seem to appear everywhere there's a need.

I have nothing against individual Catholics, even many in the clergy, who do wonderful things based on their religion.

I just can't buy the theology and the diktats put out by the bigshots in the Vatican.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Exactly!...n/t
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
67. Edit after the time limit. Should have been 63 not 73.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. I don't think you can be an ex Catholic. A recoverig Catholic maybe
but not an ex Catholic. lol
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #55
95. Formerly Catholic friend describes himself as
a "collapsed" Catholic.


Tansy Gold, collapsed Jewish Presbyterian (don't ask. . . )


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #95
103. Okay!
lol

:)
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
41. ex-catholics unite! me too -- we're a special breed
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
63. Yes, every time my husband's VERY Catholic family talks about mass or some sacrament
or another, I smile to myself and thank my lucky stars that I am a recovering Catholic. I may never fully escape the guilt and self-doubt but damn, my kid won't have to suffer from it. I already told my husband that his parents can have our child baptized (because he or she will be an infant and won't know the difference anyway) but that is as far as it goes. I will not have my child feeling ashamed of their every thought and feeling.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
62. Couldn't agree more. It boggles the mind that we are even still discussing this
in this day and age. If you think abortion is wrong, don't have one. End of story.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
43. K & R..for all of us who have had to make the difficult choice, but grateful it was there to make.
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 09:09 PM by BrklynLiberal
I have marched in DC more than once to keep this right form being taken away from us.
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Cabcere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
44. Kick & rec.
Thanks for posting this, Madspirit...I am glad that you were able to do what you needed to do for your own life and that you're here with us today. :hug: I recently had a conversation about abortion with one of my good friends at school who happens to be a devoted Catholic and very active in Students For Life, and I told him my perspective on abortion, using myself as an example. I have never had an abortion, but due to a rare genetic blood disorder I have, pregnancy would be extremely dangerous and quite possibly fatal for me, so if I were raped or something an abortion might be my only chance for survival. After hearing this, he seemed to reconsider, saying that until I had told him that he had been 100% pro-life, but now he wasn't so sure it was such an absolute thing. Sometimes it helps to put a face on a difficult issue like this...so thanks again for posting this, Lee. Maybe it will help put a different perspective out there and open some minds. :hi:
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
45. Kicking on Principle...n/t
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ellenfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
46. thanks for the link.
Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 09:38 PM by ellenfl
peregrine, i support your choice, please support mine.

ellen fl
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
48. K & R..
When I had mine, all I felt was relief....relief that I didn't have to go to some butcher in a dark alley....that I wouldn't bleed to death or become sterile. I've never regretted my decision...ever. In fact, it was one of the best decisions I ever made.

And I know there are a lot of women out there who regret having a child...
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #48
101. "And I know
there are a lot of women out there who regret having a child..." That's a dirty little secret that NO one wants to talk about.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #101
102. BINGO!!!
Verbotene Thema!!!
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. I believe Oprah discussed it once and there
was a huge:nuke:
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
52. I was barely making ends meet when I had mine...
Right now, I'd have a 12 year old, I'd be a single mom with MS (probably questionable healthcare, if any at all), and I'd be on welfare, wondering what would happen to my child if I became completely incapacitated from my illness.

Several years later, I got pregnant again (even with birth control, we're talking Nile River Valley fertile here) and knew I couldn't make that same choice. I decided to have the baby, and had a miscarriage. Both choices were the correct ones for me at the time.

As it is, I am VERY happily married, and am happily childfree, with a man I would never have ended up with if I'd had a child. Even with my illness, these have been the happiest years of my life. I could never have experienced them if I had not made the decisions I did. I never had any regrets about EITHER of them.

Republicans don't want anyone to live off the government dollar, yet they don't want women to have any choices whether they end up there or not. Kind of ironic that they want to sentence women to a life of poverty, then they want to yank the only safety net for those that are there.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. If they're really worried about it, they can support a SPHC system and a liveable min. wage.
But they should stop trying to tell women what they can or can't do with their own bodies.

Thanks for your post. :patriot:
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. It's always struck me as incredibly odd that right-wing GOP fundies don't want
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 12:28 AM by grace0418
sex education taught in schools, they don't want birth control to be made available, they don't want abortion to be legal, they don't want welfare, public health care, or living wages. Yet somehow they all wring their hands and cluck their tongues about broken families, teen pregnancy, high school dropout rates and crime. Well, DUH! What the fuck do you think is going to happen?

It's like being surprised because you left your keys in the ignition and the doors unlocked and SOMEONE STOLE YOUR CAR.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. Not only do they not want birth control available, they'd like to outlaw it, as well.
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 12:16 AM by impeachdubya
A reading of the major "pro-life" philosophical positions on contraception and particularly the pill, the fact that the SCOTUS decision they're really gunning for isn't so much Roe but Griswold... combined with a literal interpretation of the HLA plank in the GOP platform as it has stood for decades-- leaves no logical conclusion other than that the GOP would seriously like to outlaw most, if not all, forms of contraception.

The bottom line is, what they REALLY want is to outlaw all screwing for non-procreative purposes or outside of marriage, in the context of a larger Dominionist/Reconstructionist imposition of "Biblical Law" on the United States.

That's what all this is about- not "saving babies".
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. Outlawing all sex beyond marital/procreation is absolutely impossible. It would be
like outlawing breathing. It's a basic human need. They can Biblize it and moralize it all they want, but humans have an instinctual need for sex. Even GOP fundie right-wingers. Who of course are the biggest hypocrites in the world because they're the ones always getting caught with hookers and mistresses and underage boys, etc.

I know you know this, by the way. And I agree with you. It's just so maddening I have to rant.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #74
84. All the more reason, it gives them something to "fight" that they can never stop.
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 03:48 AM by impeachdubya
Sort of like pot smoking.

The reason I harp on the ridiculous, whacked out agenda of the dominionist "brain trusts" who actually run the GOP is because, well, the people who actually run the GOP have this whacked out, dominionist agenda. They're the ones in charge. They're the ones making the decisions. That's why you have anti-contraception waterheads put in charge of Family Planning at the FDA.

The Corporate Media, whose intere$$$$$$t$ overlap with the Republican Party's, isn't terribly motivated to point out how completely nucking futs the GOP "base" is... whereas it is totally in their interest to portray the Democratic Party as somehow "out of touch" by supporting reproductive choice.

Problem is, bullshit noise about the all-powerful "values voter" notwithstanding, the American People are overwhelmingly pro-choice. And when it comes to contraception, the Republican agenda is even more massively out of whack with where the American People are at. Like you said, they're never gonna be able to outlaw screwing, and they're never going to outlaw birth control, either. But they have to keep this nutjob 2% or whatever that runs their party happy. Which is why, here, Scott McClellan REFUSED to answer whether Bush is "opposed to contraception".

I mean, shit- the guy only has two kids, and they're twins. Either we are supposed to believe he and Laura have had sex only a handful of times, or obviously there's some birth control going on. But Bush CANNOT say "I support legal contraception", because the nutter butters in charge of the GOP, their heads would fucking EXPLODE. So Scott Mcclellan had to ramble on about a "culture of life" and avoid the question.

But it's worth asking, if the pro-life movement isn't really about going after birth control, what a "culture of life" has to do with a question about contraception, anyway?

See, this is where I think we NEED to come out swinging with the GOP. They've been so busy trying to frame the abortion issue as "baby killing", why don't we have anyone on our side who is asking why the GOP wants to outlaw, for instance, the pill? And if not, why not- when the major "pro-life" organizations consider it an abortifacent? If they really want to make fertilized eggs citizens with rights under the first amendment, does that mean that folks working in IVF clinics will be brought up on mass murder charges? How about women with IUDs- "concealed murder weapons"?

Ask 'em. Point blank. MAKE them answer.

I'm sure you know this, too. I'm just ranting as well. Peace.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #66
77. Yep. They are a bunch of sickos
enabled by the Bush brigade.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #66
96. EXACTLY.
The sanctimony is what sucks the most. The tongue clucking at PEOPLE HAVING SEX (horrors!) is what pisses me off the most.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
105. ha! And I guess guaranteed, paid maternity leave is way out of the question!
n/t
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-09-07 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
54. Kicked and recommended.
Great post.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
75. K and R n/t
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
76. K&R
and coming back tomorrow (after a good night's sleep) to read it.
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Heathen57 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
78. Kicked
When I was in HS a girl that I sort of knew (we would speak in the hall in passing) became pregnant. Her parents found out and put her out of the house. Facing the humiliation from school and her church, and not able to get an abortion (which would have been as bad in the parents eyes) she ended her life.

Her passing has always haunted me since she was a very bright and fun person. Ever since I have been pro-choice to an extreme. This article just proves that the pro-fetus crowd only wants control of the woman and to keep her subjugated.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
86. Done!
I've not had an abortion myself, but I have friends who have, and it's THEIR decision. THEY'RE the "deciders" here. Not the government. Not some politician. Not some self-appointed mullah. And ESPECIALLY not some republi-CON. As the petition said, I stand with my sisters. Women of my generation struggled, marched, fasted, protested, lobbied, pushed, fought, and pressured. And sued, to win the court-sanctioned right to have the last word over our bodies. After all that struggle and all that work and all those battles, I don't want to see that hard-won right taken away.
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
87. Keep it LEGAL
I'm surprised that dancingAlone is not on this thread.

Please read her journal: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/dancingAlone

More about her mother: Gerri Santoro
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37967-2004Apr23?language=printer

And yes, I've had an abortion but am not proud of it; it was an agonizing and necessary choice and we'd better, by damn, keep it LEGAL.

Many thanks for this thread, Madspirit. I am so proud of the courage I see here everyday.


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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #87
133. I'm here, Duppers
Just late to this thread. Ironically, June 8th/9th was the anniversary of my mom's death (coroner's report uses both dates) and I've been having kind of a hard time with it this year. 43 years later my heart is in shreds.

I may go back through this thread and comment some - if I can maintain my composure. I really don't want to lash out at anyone. As raw as I am at the moment, though, that could prove difficult.

I do, however, want to thank you, and Madspirit, and all the others who have posted here with such great candor. I can't express how deeply moved and inspired I am by the courage you've all shown.

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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #133
157. I remember reading about your mother's story
Thank you for sharing it with us and for keeping her memory alive in so many people's hearts.
:hug: and :cry: for you and your loss
:hug: and :cry: for her and hers
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
90. Because of the right to choose, my daughter is here today
I had a very bad first pregnancy...first set of doctors warned me not to have another.

Second set of much better doctors told me that it would be okay as long as I went to a high-risk OB.

So...I got checked out before conception.

I met with the OB about my history and he point blank told me..."If you have any of your old problems come back...you must end the pregnancy otherwise it would most likely kill you".

So...Mr. B and I went home to discuss...and you know what...having the right to choose and the fact that abortion is legal...gave me more choices...

If abortion had been illegal (and especially under any circumstance)...I would never had gone ahead with my second pregnancy...


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LosinIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
91. In the 50s my grandmother killed herself because she was pregnant again at 45
She drank formaldehyde. She could see no way out, already had 5 girls and an abusive husband. Let's not go back to those days.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #91
97. Oh God, Los.
I'm so sorry about your grandma. Yes, let's NOT go back.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
92. The Idea Of Sending One's Name (Signature) To The WH, Stating That They've Had An Abortion?
So they can put me on their file?:scared:


I have not had an abortion, but it isn't anybody's business if I did, especially not the WH's. They can all rot in hell for all I care.
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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #92
110. This is an Important Point--This was a Really Brave Act; They Were Under Threat
This is an important point, that people can never forget. I still have that issue of Ms. Magazine, where prople listed their names on a petition, and told that they had had abortions--and this was when it was still illegal in this country. People went to Denmark, for example, to get abortions, or just had unwanted children. This was an extremely brave thing to do, which they risked everything for, alone, and it got a lot of (sometimes unspoken) support from women for it. This was one of the first times ever, when abortion was even referred to publicly, and there were grave consequences for it. I remember this petition, and the threat these brave women were under, publicly telling their names when it was illegal--and inspiring to me--and pushed the process along mightily. Abortion became legal in New York State first, then legal across the whole country, 1973 I think it was. This was a huge era for progress; there was much of it. Then the backlash came, and they killed it (almost) all.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #92
113. If You're Going to be THAT paranoid
You might as well think they will know anyway...because they will. I am not putting down your paranoia because didn't Bush once actually try to get a list of women who have had abortions? I am just saying, the government has their ways...so I am just going to be out there with it. At least then, if they ever sneak in and haul me off, people will know why and be able to do something about it...
Lee
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #113
138. Well, I Don't Want To Make It Any Easier For Them Than It Already Is (nt)
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #113
153. Maybe the paranoia would be more reasonable if held against the "Army of God" types.
THOSE are very good reason not to have your name in public as having had an abortion.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
109. If white concervative males had abortions, we'd have clinics on every corner
Seems to me there is quite a double standard that applies to everyone else versus the white, conservative male.

Am I wrong?
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
112. Great post. And:
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
115. Time For a Kick...
I hope people are going and signing the petition also!
Lee
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
116. Signed the petition.
Yes, I had an abortion.

Thanks Madspirit.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
120. I had an Ectopic Pregnancy in a "christian" hospital in 1983
"We do NOT do abortions", as the hospital staff told me. Nor would they do Sonograms, IV's, or anything else, to PUNISH the woman.

I fought these people for my LIFE. I survived. If I didn't, my beautiful 23 year old daughter would not be here today. Her "sibling" had to die so SHE could be born 2 years later.
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Cabcere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. I can't even imagine what a horrible experience that must have been, HockeyMom.
:hug: I'm so glad you made it through and that your daughter is here today as well. :pals:
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #120
146. I too had an ectopic
My fallopian tube had already burst by the time I was diagnosed. I was lucky to survive - lucky to be in a California, University Hospital. Funny, I had never considered it to be an abortion. It was emergency life saving surgery.

I'm not sorry or ashamed or anything, other than grateful that it didn't kill me. Without medical intervention, an ectopic is a lose/lose no matter how you look at it. What the hell is wrong with these people. Does it serve their gawd to have both a dead mother and a dead fetus?
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
124. kick
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
127. Can I start one that says
Edited on Sun Jun-10-07 06:33 PM by undeterred
I always used 2 barrier methods of birth control because I couldn't take the pill and it was a real lot of trouble but somehow I never had an unintended pregnancy?

:shrug:

Isn't there a group for us?
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #127
144. Yup
Call yourself lucky.
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DKRC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
129. K&R!
I've never needed to exercise this choice, but I don't want someone else to make this extremely difficult and personal decision for me or any woman.
Having given birth, when I run into any anti-choice wingnuts, I call it what it is: Forced Labor.
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
130. Done + a Kick
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silverlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
131. Thank you to my mom...
Born poor in 1910 - went through a government paid nursing program to become an RN, paid due to a national shortage at the time. She always advocated for choice, as she treated the women who came to the hospital because of botched illegal abortions, and watched the affluent have D&C signed off by doctors who believed in choice. She was very cognizant that this law was a mass wedge between the haves and the have-nots. She believed the law had no moral substance at all. She worked in the East Texas Bible Belt - she KNEW it was not a moral issue. The Christian rich women came walking through the front door for their "D&C" and the poor Christian women came in dead or seething in pain on stretchers. She was a Christian moral woman who believed in choice...and in a time where it was not popular to be so. She did not live to see Rove vs. Wade. She would have been so pleased. And if she were alive today, she would have been happy to give you her opinion - So in her memory, I do it for her.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-10-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Thank you for telling us about her. My mom turned librul over Choice.
It galvanized her politics the last 10 yrs of her life. She said she hoped none of her kids had to have an abortion, but she was going to work and fight to make sure we could get a safe legal one if the need arose. I came into sexuality before Roe v Wade, and think that many younger people just have no idea how it was, how it could be again. So, thank you for sharing, thank you for working to keep it legal also.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
145. My SO and I support abortion...
It's really the only choice.
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Elspeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
152. kick
:kick:
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StudentsMustUniteNow Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
156. Nothing to be proud about at all n.t
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. Your insistence on trying to shame women is deplorable.
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StudentsMustUniteNow Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. Don't force your moral system on me
I believe having an abortion is not something to be proud of. If you don't think so, that's fine.

I'm not trying to shame women, but I would rather America see less abortions per annum.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #159
160. Yes, you are trying to shame women.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
162. kicking on principle
...could still use signatures.
Lee
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-11-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. Is the surgical procedure
for an ectopic pregnancy considered an abortion? I've never considered it to be but in these times I wonder.
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