Women have had abortions forever. CHOICE to me is being able to get safe, legal one.

[uppityperson]

Making abortions illegal will not stop them from happening. People will go underground again, or to other countries, or find providers that will do an abortion if you have enough money or connections. Keeping them legal and safe is important, regardless of how you feel about whether or not you would get one or about any morality associated. To me, CHOICE is having the choice to get a safe, legal abortion, not a back alley or expensive or unsafe one. Keep them safe.


Wiki link found in another thread, place to start if you are interested in history of abortions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

[Coventina]

1. It also lowers the incidence of infanticide.

Desperate people do desperate things. When having a child is considered a "sin", young women will do anything to save their reputations.

On edit: not just their reputations, but to prevent themselves from being shunned, beaten, or otherwise punished for something that they did not accomplish on their own. I.E. the father of the child often gets off the hook.

Even in this day and age, I had a friend who was accused of "entrapping" her boyfriend by getting pregnant. :eyes:

[Avalux]

2. And you know what else?

Those with $$ and power will be able to have safe abortions even if made illegal. Those who will suffer are ordinary folks (as it's always been in the history of humanity).

[EFerrari]

15. So true. n/t

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Absolutely, my dear uppityperson!

That's exactly what choice means to me as well......

People will always do what they need to do ......

Let's make the world a better place by ensuring that all women have access to safe, legal abortions!

K&R

[glowing]

4. I completely agree...

It would not be my choice to have an abortion. And I did choose not to partake in all adult things until I was an adult. I did not want to put myself in a position to handle adult issues when I wasn't ready for them, like getting an std or becoming pregnant. But that was my own personal choice. Had I been raped or molested, I don't know what I would have done.

All that aside, if abortion does become illegal, it will force women to seek unsafe alternatives. And the rich will just fly off to where ever and have it discreatly done as usual.

[gollygee]

12. Or get a note from a psychiatrist saying she needs one

I saw this in the Ms. Magazine online article (toward the end):

http://www.msmagazine.com/fall2006/lte_archive.asp

I was using birth control, but it failed and I came home at Christmas in 1969 pregnant again. At that time, in the District of Columbia , you could get a legal abortion if you had a psychiatrist write a letter saying your mental health required the procedure. My OB/Gyn sent me to a psychiatrist to get the letter. This doctor sexually assaulted me before he would give me the letter. I didn't have any recourse because I needed the abortion and so I had to do what he asked. It was humiliating and disgusting and I felt completely helpless. The abortion itself was nothing compared to what I had to do to get it.

[EFerrari]

16. I went throught the same thing in the early 70s. It was

horrendous. :mad:

[RB TexLa]

5. It's about individual freedom, nothing else

We determine what happens in our body. If I want a vasectomy or vasectomy reversal. If I choose to not to have a cancer treated or chose to have one treated, it's my decision. The government has no say. My wife has no say, she has NO rights in the matter. She does not even have a right to know what my decision is or what has or hasn't been carried out.

[gollygee]

7. delete (posted in wrong spot)

[Madspirit]

9. She doesn't have a say in it

...but if you want a decent relationship, it would probably be wise to make these decisions together. ..but no, no one else owns your body...not the government, not your SO, not god. Your body is yours.

Your snark on this may escape some but I don't believe you are pro-choice.
Lee

[RB TexLa]

13. Defiantly pro-choice.

No one has any right to tell others what they can or can't do with their bodies, very simple.

If my wife were faced with an unplanned pregnancy I would not have, take or want any role in any decision she makes. She is a free human being and she decides what happens in that regard, not me.

[Madspirit]

17. Good

I am sorry if I misunderstood. I thought I've read you be anti-choice. I must be mistaking you for someone else. I would think it would be nice if she discussed it with you but yes, it is HER choice.
Lee

[JerseygirlCT]

34. Yes, her choice, including her choice to invite his opinion

on it. (I'd certainly include my husband in such a decision. But then again, I'd also include him in any other serious medical decision).

Bottom line though, is that it would be her *choice* to involve him, or anyone else, in *her* decision.

[RB TexLa]

39. And it would be my choice to not give her any opinion or advice

Or any input on the matter. I would not cause any influence on her decision, even if she asked me to do so I wouldn't out of respect.

[JerseygirlCT]

43. Yes, your choice to do that, of course. nt

[dsc]

6. I admit to never having understood this arguement

I can't think of a single thing governments make illegal to which this argument can't be applied. It is one thing to argue that something shouldn't be illegal due to a lack of victims or that enforcing the law would cause more victims than the activity one is trying to ban but to simply state that people will break the law anyhow is an arguement which applies to virtually any illegal activity. We ban murder but murders occur, we ban pollution but companies pollute, we ban theft but people steal, etc. I admit, I have never seen the power in this arguement. Not when applied to guns, not when applied to drugs, not when applied to adult sexual activity, and not here either.

[uppityperson]

10. I am confused by what you write.

Are you saying that regulating health and safety issues is wrong? Are you saying that making sure people have a choice between unsafe and safe health care is wrong? Are you saying that having an abortion is equal to murder or pollution or theft? I am confused by what you write and don't want to assume and reply based on a wrong assumption. If you could clarify, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

[dsc]

23. I am saying that any government law will be broken

and that the arguement of the OP presupposes that abortion shouldn't be illegal or assumes that the fact an illegal act would still occur is reason enough not to make the act illegal. There are plenty of reasons not to make things illegal but the fact a law would be broken isn't a good one. If one doesn't presuppose that abortion has no victims, and frankly I don't, then there should be some regulation of it, regardless of the fact those regulations might be flouted. I admit there are severe problems with a total ban on abortion and because of those I am not sure I favor that, but I also don't think abortion should be permitted once a fetus is viable, a time frame which is moving back as I type. In any case, the OP's arguement can be applied equally forcefully to any activity the government may wish to regulate and thus is a non sequitor.

[uppityperson]

29. I see what you are saying, but disagree with your point, you missed my point.

The reason abortions need to stay legal is to protect the health and safety of the person getting the abortion. NOT because it will be DONE illegally but to protect her. No, they should not be kept legal because otherwise they will be done illegally, but the OUTCOME of illegal abortions is so bad. The choice for a legal abortion needs to be kept to protect the lives of women seeking abortions. They have and will continue to get abortions as they always have. Should they have the choice of a legal one or not? Should they have the choice to survive or die?

Another example. Doctors are licensed to make sure those doing health care/medicine (supposedly) have the training necessary to fulfill their duties safely. It is illegal for me to practice medicine, must make sure I, as a nurse, do not diagnose or prescribe treatments, even over the counter medicines because then I would be practicing medicine. The laws regulating this were passed because people were doing snake oil medicine. Now it is illegal and the laws need to be continued because otherwise people would be getting hurt more. Do you want the choice of having your appendix out in a hospital under sterile conditions, or in my house at my dining room table?

The abortion issue is a complicated one, but having the choice of a legal safe one or an illegal one that has a much higher chance of causing permanent damage or death is simple.

[dsc]

41. that is much better stated

and is a much more valid, and thus harder to defeat, arguement.

[EFerrari]

18. That may be true but choice is a matter of human rights unlike

drunk driving or murder. People break rules but that in itself is no reason to make bad ones that endanger women's lives.

[dsc]

25. then make that case

instead of the one the OP said. It would be as if we said, sodomy shouldn't be banned because people will do it anyway instead of saying it shouldn't be banned because what conscentual adults wish to do sexually isn't the business of the government. The first reason is stupid, the second valid.

[EFerrari]

30. Sometimes our discussions are a refinement in progress, dsc.

:)

[uppityperson]

35. IF you are going to have an abortion, you SHOULD be able to get one and not die.

People will do it illegally and get hurt much more. Regulating it to make sure they are done in a safe, hygienic manner is important. Being able to CHOOSE a safe hygienic abortion rather than an illegal unsafe one is important. Women have gotten abortions for a long long time and will continue to do so. IF someone gets one, it should be done in a safe hygienic way.

[Madspirit]

19. This is PERSONAL

Murder affects others. This is something PERSONAL that people will do anyway and a big good reason to make it legal. Did you see my thread on "We Had Abortions"? It stated in the 100s of 1000s, the number of women, worldwide, who die from illegal abortions.
Lee

[dsc]

26. then make that case instead of the one the OP stated

[Madspirit]

28. I think the OP did just fine

She included a link that gave the history of abortion.
Lee

[uppityperson]

31. You missed my point. Look up to #29

[uppityperson]

32. If you had appendicitis, would you like the choice of being treated by a competent person?

Would you like the choice of having an appendectomy under safe, sterile conditions, or would you prefer to have it on my kitchen table without anesthetic except for what I could find/make on the underground drug market? The choice is NOT whether or not to have an abortion, but whether or not to have it in safe conditions. Safety. If you want to discuss whether or not to HAVE an abortion, start a topic on that. That is not what this is about.

[dsc]

42. Of course sterile is better

though it actually isn't criminally illegal to have an unsterile hospital, the hospital merely gets sued into oblivion. But your point is taken.

[gollygee]

24. It's hard to make enforce a law that makes it illegal to do something to your own body

women own their bodies. Even if the government legally owns their bodies, they still have true ownership and possession. If a woman wants to have an abortion, since her body is hers, she will do it regardless of whether the government tells her she can.

[dsc]

27. yes and no

certainly for early term abortions your arguement is valid but for later term ones it isn't. It should also be noted that isn't what the OP said. But even with your framing it means that the law should target doctors instead of women not necessarily that there should be no laws at all.

[uppityperson]

33. What I said is "CHOICE to me is being able to get safe, legal one."

Quit trying to misrepresent that simple thing into a discussion of whether or not you agree with abortions. IF someone were to get an abortion, it NEEDS to be done under safe, regulated conditions. That is what I said.

[Madspirit]

8. k&r you Uppity Person!...n/t

[hfojvt]

11. making murder illegal does not stop them from happening either

Making heroin illegal does not stop (some) people from shooting up.

Legality though, does have a way of discouraging activities that society frowns upon. Do you think homicides would increase if it became legal?

Do you have numbers, is there any way to estimate how many abortions were happening in the US prior to Roe v. Wade?

Perhaps I could follow the wiki link, but it is time for me to go for a drive to visit my family.

"The only opportunity implied by 'free will' is the opportunity to be wrong." Larry Niven

[Madspirit]

20. Yes

There are stats and links to stats in the thread of mine called: "We Had an Abortion".
Lee

[Cleita]

14. There used to be an herb called Sylphium in ancient times that

was used for birth control. The use of this herb was so popular that it became extinct. Poor management of resources I'd say. It's not known how it worked, but it could have induced miscarriages when a woman first realized she was possibly pregnant. When woman have the means to manage their fertility, populations remain stable. When men interfere then you see the poverty and population explosions that unmanaged fertility brings. Native women in the Amazon have a pharmacopia that they use to manage their fertility and many of those tribes still live in the Stone Age so you know this goes back to the beginning of humanity.

The Catholic Church stayed out of fertility and women's matters until the middle of the nineteenth century when the pope issued an encyclical that forbade birth control and abortion. The bible says nothing about this and back then it was commonly believed that the soul entered the body at first breath and the cutting of the umbilical cord not while the baby was still part of the mother in the womb. The story of Onan spilling his seed was not about birth control but about him not doing his duty to get his dead brother's wife pregnant so he could have an heir by proxy. The brother had died before producing an heir.

I know this thread is about surgical abortions but I thought I would just throw this in for the uniformed.

[EFerrari]

21. I don't remember the rate, but women experience spontaneous

(early) abortions much more often than one would think. Don't remember if my doctor said it was 1 or 2 in 10 pregnancies -- I don't want to give a wrong number but I remember being very surprised when he told me the rate.

[uppityperson]

36. at least 1/3

Ever have a menses that was a few days or a week late, with maybe super bad cramps? There you go.

[EFerrari]

37. Sure -- hence the conversation with my doc. My body is anti-life. lol

:)

[uppityperson]

40. Mine also. I managed one.

Good luck with whichever way you go.

[EFerrari]

44. That was years ago. Mostly, I remember being surprised

because these weren't the kind of stats you hear in high school p.e. or health class.

Why childbearing has to be made so opaque to most young women is another thread. :)

[RadiDem]

22. Abortion was common, legal and openly advertised ca. era of 'Founding Fathers'

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Great Leading Title And Great Point.

You are absolutely right there.

[Coexist]

45. My long ago journal entry - includes some interesting history of abortion:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/FLDem5/1

[uppityperson]

46. Thanks for posting that. We are in tune with each other about the issue