Are we truly much better off than in the dark ages? After hearing of the atrocities at Abu Ghraib

[BigBearJohn]

I am reminded of my thoughts upon reading the history
of the Holocaust. "Surely," I thought, "the horror of
death and torture committed during the Holocaust were an anomaly..
an occurrence that could only happen once in a millenia."

But as I witness the atrocious behavior of the current
administration with its record on torture, its insidious
wiping away of our precious inalienable rights, one by one,
destroying our beautiful country, our clean air, allowing
people to die from lack of health care, ignoring the pleas
of thousands during hurricane Katrina, I am left with the
haunting feeling that if ever there were a "possibility"
that we could be experiencing the APOCALYPSE, this is it.

I'm in no way a religious man. But when I see the wide
spread greed, ignorance and evil in this world and the
speed at which things are falling apart, I can't help but
question my own beliefs.

Sorry if this depressing, but I had to share it. The one
thing I hold onto is this: If I can make my life and the
lives of those I cherish just a little better, a little bit
easier, a little bit happier, then my life has been worthwhile.

Thanks for listening.

[blues90]

1. I feel much the same

It does seem like we are going back to some high tech form of the dark ages .

It's difficult to know what is real or not anylonger . I know of all the horrors but we don;t see them directly .

So many people are ignored these days as Katrina that it just is to hidious and horrifying to comprehend even though we have seen the photo's it still seems surreal that this could happen today .

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. The people of the dark ages were bumbling amateurs compared to us.

Though the motivations were much the same, nationalism, greed, fear, religion, etc, they couldn't compete with we "civilized" people of later years in pure, unbridled, slaughter, planned starvation, torture, etc. Of course our much more sophisticated methods are matched by our much more sophisticated rationales for doing so.

[Raskolnik]

9. Perhaps this is nit-picking, but which people in the dark ages were motivated by nationalism? n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Franks, Saxons, Celts, Han, and a whole slew of other tribes.

[Raskolnik]

14. I'm not sure that woud be considered nationalism in any modern sense.

Tribalism, perhaps, but not nationalism.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. I see little, if any, difference between the two.

Whether some Frank whacks a Saxon for a perceived or real "threat" to the tribe, or an American kills a "raghead" threatening "God and Country" the motivations are much the same. Of course, the Frank and the GI believe they are doing so in a noble cause with God's gratitude and blessing. As do the the murdered Saxon and "raghead".

[Raskolnik]

19. Inflammatory rhetoric notwithstanding, the two concepts are not interchangeable

It appears you're using both terms as shorthand for any concept that justifies violence against outsiders.

Neither concept may be noble, but that doesn't mean they are one in the same.

[KT2000]

3. Watch the movie King Arthur

It came out a few years ago. It shows King Arthur as having lived during the Dark Ages, which some consider he actually did, and he was a commander for the Roman Army with his knights who were conscripted from Sarmatia, which actually did happen.

The power structure at the time was Rome/church and was as corrupt as our country is now. Rome was cutting back on their "empire" and leaving Britain to whoever - wars ensued.

The movie made me think of parallels between US/Iraq and the Romans. But no matter what the circumstances and the times, the challenges for the individual are there too. Inside the brutality of power are a million decisions that people make and it matters.

It's a beautiful film - be sure to get the Director's Cut though - the released version was too edited.

[UTUSN]

4. I just K&R-ed n/t

[smalll]

5. Um, yes.

30-something life expectancy for one thing. Lots of other too. Lots.

[BlooInBloo]

6. No. Everything is JUST as bad as the worst that ANY humans have EVER experienced. EVER.

[smalll]

7. Don't forget this for the impaired -

:sarcasm:

[BlooInBloo]

8. I don't pander to idiots.

[gravity]

10. Yeah, fuck 1000 years of progress

[Raskolnik]

11. Are we better off?

Unless seven out of your eight children died before they were five years old, half your village has leprosy, one person within a hundred miles of you can read and write, and you're hoping to live to the ripe old age of 28, you're probably better off living today.

[Cleita]

12. I often wonder how many people have died or will die at their

hands when it's all over with. We never knew the extent of the atrocities committed by Hitler while the Nazis were in power or the Soviet Russians under Stalin. It was only after it was all over that we found out the extent of the atrocities and deaths that they perpetrated. What we know now is what our government is doing is bad enough, but I don't think we have any idea of the extent right now. It scares me to think of it.

[Hubert Flottz]

15. The republicans have let the terrorists win.

Our country is a mere shadow of what it was in 2000. Our Constitution is weakened to the breaking point.

[AngryAmish]

16. ahistoric rant

[Marrah_G]

18. When you look at the reality of history and not the romantic version of it

Then yes we are far better off then things were in the dark ages.

Medievil torture was far more grotesque. Life on every level was far more difficult, often dirty and painful.