Why isn't the illegal immigrants issue treated like a civil rights issue?

[Philosoraptor]

I don't mean to diminish the black civil rights movement, it and the women's rights movements are the two big ones that kicked off all equality issues, but isn't the plight of the millions of desperate immigrants a civil rights issue? Or am I totally off base as usual?

Aren't these people pouring in from Mexico refugees from poverty and desperation? Doesn't Lady Liberty invite them in?

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"



Aren't they being shamefully exploited as guest workers with no rights? Aren't they practically slaves to the plantation owners?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Yes, no, yes, yes, yes and yes.

Yes, it should be a civil rights issue.

No, you are not off base now or usually.

Yes, they are refugees who deserve something other than deportation.

Yes, Lady Liberty is supposed to welcome them.

Yes, they are being exploited.

Yes, they are slave labor.

[babylonsister]

3. Yes, what proud said. nt

[baldguy]

2. Because illegal immigrants aren't people

:sarcasm:

[blondeatlast]

4. I make no distinction between political or economic depression. It IS a civil rights issue,

IMHO.

somehow, "stealing" a hard labor job from an American doesn't seem like enough incentive to cross the lovely, but DEADLY, Sonoran desert.

[porphyrian]

5. For some, it's the legality, for others, it's bigotry...

...still others are just angry and looking to blame someone. Personally, I believe diversity is our greatest strength and I welcome more of it.

[ComerPerro]

31. I don't think there is anyone out there who *honestly* has a problem with the legality

its just an excuse they use to cover their bigotry. "But, but, they broke the law..."

Just excuses.

[porphyrian]

33. I don't know, there are some Eliot Nesses...

...but, for the most part, you're right. It's a very common excuse for bigotry.

[Telly Savalas]

61. Indeed, if legality was a concern, then the focus would be on people

who have violated marijuana laws, since such folks outnumber those who've broken immigration laws by about 10 to 1.

[LostInAnomie]

63. Yeah, because it would be impossible for someone to genuinely be concerned...

... about a flood of cheap illegal labor undercutting the wages of American citizens. :sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

95. no, sorry, I still say you are full of shit. You act like you care about American workers,

but you really couldn't give a fuck. They are just a means to an end, a way to justify your irrational xenophobia.

If you want to go on pretending you actually care about American workers, go on, keep patting yourself on the back. But I can see through your bullshit.

[LostInAnomie]

103. And I say that crying "xenophobia" is for people too fucking stupid to make a rational arguments.

Or, they are the scum that hire illegal labor.

Either way, there is no reason arguing with them because they have a vested interest in their idiocy.

[ComerPerro]

104. yeah, its much better to pretend you are some champion of the labor movement

probably brings a lot of smug self-satisfaction, so I can't fault you there. Its nice to keep telling ourselves the lies we love to hear. Especially when they so perfectly justify our bigotry.

[LostInAnomie]

105. Oooo... now I'm a bigot. How cute. Let me guess, you're going to call me a "racist" next.

After all, name calling is easier than actually justifying your position. Especially, when your position is without merit.

What a fucking joke.

[ComerPerro]

106. Oh, God no. Not you. You're a working class hero. Thank God for you.

[LostInAnomie]

107. Here's an idea: Why don't you actually try to come up with rational reasons to let...

... illegal immigrants into the country. That way I have something to actually respond to besides childish name-calling from someone that knows jack-shit about me or my background.

[ComerPerro]

108. classic move. Nice one. "Well, if you don't see things my way, then why don't you

get out there and singlehandedly fix problems that 435 congressman and hundreds of interest groups can't manage to iron out!!!!"

[LostInAnomie]

111. "Classic move"? In case you haven't noticed, this is a discussion forum.

People discuss issues here. I asked you to come up with a rational argument that I can respond to. So far, all you've offered up is name-calling and excuses. The main reason I keep responding to your tripe is that it gives a glowing example of the laughable tactics the amnesty crowd uses to try to stifle debate.

I welcome your next response.

[ComerPerro]

113. Your whole "name one reason why they deserve to be here" bullshit shows how worthless you are

For one thing, granting amnesty won't "suddely introduce millions of new workers to the economy". They're already working, stealing your job, remember? If anything, it will help ensure that they at least get a minimum wage for their labor, that they are compensated properly for it. Whether or not this is enough to get by on is a completely separate issue, but at least they won't be given sub-human treatment.

This country grants amnesty and asylee or refuge status to people from all over the world escaping cruel dictators, martial law, disease, famine, and even oppressive poverty. But we won't let Mexicans and Central Americans come here legally for some of the same reasons we welcome people from other countries. They come to escape their living conditions and for a better life.

Make no mistake, some jobs will never pay $50k a year. It is, at best, dangerous and ill-informed to believe that suddenly all pay for all jobs will go up if illegals disappear. For example, imagine if no one were around who was willing to pick up trash and filth in city streets and in schools and offices for minimum wage or slightly higher. Would the wages just have to go up, becasue of supply and demand. Possibly, because, after all, if no one will do the work for the wage offered, yet the work needs to be done, the employer will have to offer a higher wage or some other incentive. But consider this: Another way to win at this is to take the need out of the equation. The more realistic scenario would lead to towns and schools deciding its not worth it to pay people "outrageous" wages just to pick up garbage and clean up. And eventually volunteer groups will come in and do it if trash gets bad. You know, people who actually care about and believe in things (perhaps you've heard of them?).

[LostInAnomie]

115. I'll ignore the "shows how worthless you are" line and rspond like an adult.

When Reagen granted amnesty it set the signal that all illegal immigrants have to do is make it into the country and wait. If they have large enough numbers it will be impossible for the US to do anything about them and will be forced to grant amnesty again. The rate of border crossings grew exponentially throughout the 90's and early 00's and here we are in 2007 debating it again.

Granting amnesty not only sends a signal to illegal immigrants but also illegal employers. Employers learn that there is no repercussion for ignoring labor laws and that increased hiring of illegals not only helps their bottom line, but insures that there will be a constant supply of cheap, exploitable labor in the future.

As far as not letting Mexicans into the country, that is disingenuous at best. They have access to H-1B, H-2A, H-2B, and TN-1 visas available to them that allow over 100,000 people in a year. It will not give them citizenship, but it provides them with work.

The US is not hurting from a lack of unskilled labor. There are millions of citizens out there in dire need of a paycheck. They are the ones that suffer from a flooded labor market. By curbing the availability of illegal labor simple supply and demand shows that the wages paid for these jobs will have to increase, or innovation will make the job obsolete. Either way, it will help US citizens economically.

My preferred way to stop the illegal immigration problem would be to place serious prison sentences on employers. This way the real perpetrators are punished, not the victims. But giving amnesty will only help to guarantee that these employers will have access to cheap labor and further compound the problem.

[LiberalHeart]

71. Wrong.

[pampango]

112. Do you mean that the legality of these 12 million immigrants is the only issue?

What if they had been admitted legally under a more generous immigration law than actually exists? Would their presence, and the continuing flow of "legal" immigrants, not be a problem for you?

[NorthernSpy]

6. why isn't my desire to start an open squat in your home treated like a civil rights issue?

Gawd, the things some people come up with...


:eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

7. Racist pricks treated my Italian grandfather just like people want to treat Mexicans today

It makes me sick.

Don

[thethinker]

8. Twisted logic

I would love to sneak into Canada and pretend to be a citizen so I could sign up their FREE health care program. I have had some very high medical costs recently, and will have more. If I lived in Canada, I would not have these problems.

So, let's say I did. So, let's say I am living in Canada and pretending to be a Canadian and enjoying the benefits of their health care program.

Well, if they caught up with me and decided I was really not a Canadian entitled to use their health cate program and they escorted me to the border and deported me, would they be violating my civil rights? Of course not.

I would not have civil rights in Canada. I am not a citizen of Canada. I did not pay taxes into their system. They would have every right to deport me and that is exactly what they should do. I would be scamming their system.

If Canada allowed every American in need of health care to cross the border and use theirs, how long do you think their health care system would hold up? There are more Americans in need of health care than there are Canadians paying into that system. Is it their fault that our government will not provide us with health care? Our government spends the money on wars instead of health care. The only solution is to fix our system. The only solution for the folks from South America and Mexico is to fix their system.

We should not let emotions get in the way of logic and common sense.

[pingzing58]

22. You go to Canada then, illegals are not the cause of the problems with our health care system.

[Orsino]

102. Twisted corporate greed and racism...

...trump democracy almost every time in this great land, ably assisted by emotional "arguments."

[Flying Dream Blues]

110. And what's more, if they deported you, they're racists and bigots, too.

:sarcasm:

[gollygee]

9. There is no civil right to get a job in another country

They are being exploited, and employers who do that should be held accountable.

[mondo joe]

10. I was under the impression that "civil rights" refers to those rights held by citizens -

not non-citizens.

[sutz12]

12. There in lies the subterfuge....nowhere in the Bill of Rights is the word 'citizen' found.

In strictest terms, asking if one is a citizen (at least by a govt rep) without a warrant is a violation of the illegal search and seizure law. :) They have rather nullified that one, along with most of the others.

[blondeatlast]

51. Yes--so easily forgotten. "...endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..."

doesn't sound like they meant to exclude tourists or refugees to me, either.

[LostInAnomie]

64. Doesn't sound like that's in The Constitution either.

That's in the Declaration of Independence which has no bearing on the laws of this country. The Constitution is the law of the land and it outlines the rights of citizens.

[Alcibiades]

68. It does appear plenty of times elsewhere in the Constitution

as well as in the 11th Amendment, ratified in 1795, just 4 years after the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights does refer to "the people," which is taken to mean the totality of the citizens of the nation.

[Lasher]

96. But the word 'civil' is to be found in the dictionary.

civ·il

-adjective

1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of citizens: civil life; civil society.
2. of the commonwealth or state: civil affairs.
3. of citizens in their ordinary capacity, or of the ordinary life and affairs of citizens, as distinguished from military and ecclesiastical life and affairs.
4. of the citizen as an individual: civil liberty.
5. befitting a citizen: a civil duty.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civil

I you have any idea what the word 'civil' means, I don't see how you could suggest, as Philosoraptor has done in the OP, that interests of illegal immigration (non-citizens) should be treated as a US civil rights issue.

And BTW, there are many occurrences of the word 'citizen' in the US Constitution. The Bill of Rights consists only of its first 10 amendments.

[NNN0LHI]

13. That is because you are under the wrong impression

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is one of the most famous phrases in the United States Declaration of Independence. These three aspects are listed among the "unalienable rights" of man.

Notice that phrase never indicates that those "unalienable rights" are reserved just for citizens?

There was a reason for that.

Don

[mondo joe]

15. The Declaration is not the Constitution, which is the basis of US law.

Nor is the text on the Statue of Liberty.

[NNN0LHI]

26. You really want to go there?

Keep in mind that Hitler used the German "law" to declare all Jews illegal before he rounded all of them up.

Don

[mondo joe]

34. Ah, Godwin's Law. Well, if you don't want to "go" to law, why discuss civil rights at all?

Just wondering.

[NNN0LHI]

35. Here is your law

http://killeenroos.com/5/HITLER.htm

<snip>By 1938 Germany had retrieved considerable economic stability, which the people wrongly attributed to Hitler. Meanwhile, Hitler consolidated his dictatorship and encouraged Himmler to build a reign of terror through the SS, the Gestapo, and the concentration camps. In 1935 the Nuremberg Laws legalized the persecution of the Jews, depriving them of full citizenship and making intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews illegal. Within the next few years, Hitler forced the large-scale emigration of Jews, socialists, and intellectuals and destroyed the Weimer Republic. In foreign affairs, Hitler withdrew from the League of Nations in 1933. He strengthened his international position by remilitarizing the Rhineland in 1936 and by winning the neutrality of Britain through a naval treaty in June 1935. He confirmed Italy's support by backing Mussolini in the Spanish Civil War in 1936, and soon began his plans to take over the world. In 1938 Hitler annexed Austria and the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia and signed a nonaggression pact with Russia later that year. After he attacked Poland on September 1, 1938, France and Britain declared war on Germany. The early phases of World War II were successful ones for Hitler. In 1940 German troops conquered Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, and France. Hitler forced France to sign an armistice, now placing him at the pinnacle of his career. He embarked on the building of his New Order in Europe, enforcing barbaric means of exterminating the "subhuman" Jews through slave labor, concentration camps, gas chambers, firing squads, and starvation.

[mondo joe]

36. Again, if you don't want to talk law, why discuss civil rights?

Seriously. Civil rights are the application of law.

[NNN0LHI]

37. We currently have a president who thinks he is the Decider on all laws

He could declare any of us an "illegal" combatant tomorrow and begin the waterboarding the next day. Our laws suck under these circumstances.

Don

[mondo joe]

39. You can't seem to answer the question. I'll try a new one: Do you think law should be

abandoned, since, as you pointed out, Nazi Germany used it?

[Selatius]

65. That depends on the law.

Martin Luther King, Jr., said that some laws are unjust laws, but he was referencing Jim Crow laws. I suppose for some who advocate wide open borders that immigration laws that prevent free movement across the borders are unjust in their eyes.

[LostInAnomie]

67. Oh my goodness!

Nazi Germany had laws... and we have laws... we're equivalent to the Nazis!

I didn't realize that all efforts by a sovereign country to try to maintain borders and prevent people from entering it without permission had roots in Nazism. :eyes:

[Lasher]

97. That one made an impression on me.

Left me kinda speechless. :wow:

[bryant69]

11. They are breaking the law

People who come into this country illegally are here illegally. They aren't supposed to be here.

Black, Women, Gays, Legal Hispanic Immigrents, Jews, etc, all are here legally, and if they can't integrate or take part in American society and aren't afforded basic protections and services, that's on our collective heads. With illegal immigrants we don't have the same responsibility; or rather we only have our responsibility to another human being, not to a fellow citizen.

The best things we can do for them is make it harder for them to get here and close down the plantations i.e. those twisted fucks who are exploiting these people.

Bryant
Check ito ut --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. No they aren't

It is a civil offense, not a criminal one. They are no more guilty of breaking the law than you are when you exceed the speed limit. So unless you want us to call you illegal, it's not fair to call undocumented immigrants illegal.

[TahitiNut]

59. Utter nonsense.

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER II > Part VIII > § 1325 Prev | Next

§ 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who

(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. It's a civil offense

just like violating traffic laws. And yes, those violations can be punished by jail time as well.

So unless you can prove you have NEVER exceeded the speed limit, I guess I will start calling YOU illegal.

[TahitiNut]

79. Show me a FEDERAL law regarding 'traffic' (i.e. driving).

The claim that a violation of a civil (vs. criminal, or vs. martial) statute is somehow equivalent to speeding is intellectually dishonest, imho, and overtly propagandistic. Why not say the Scooter Libby hasn't done anything more serious than speeding? (Because we all realize that's horse shit.)

You compound this intellectual dishonesty with a personal attack - on the illusory and fallacious claim that a failure to prove a negative somehow legitimizes a slander. That's just more nonsense and an indication that one has no objective or rational foundation for an exclusively visceral stance.

The legal terminology is "illegal alien." The use of that term in no way reflects some character failing, as some love to claim. To make such a claim is hostile and rude.

Throughout history, 12-20 million people entering another nation in violation of its sovereign laws would most often be called an invasion - quite often punishable by death (shot on sight). It's testimony what respect we have for human life that we have never sanctioned such a reaction. Nonetheless, any pretense to even being a nation, and one in which we strive to assert democratic self-governance, is a JOKE if we don't enforce our borders and what it means to be a citizen who participates in our self-governance.

The rationalization that we should be a pressure relief valve that serves to sustain the colonial plantation economies and plutocracies of other nations, as well as the human traffickers in our own nation, is not only corrupt - it's inhumane, imho. The same 'interests' that've created a de facto trade in human labor in contravention of our laws has also served to prop up banana republics and other despotisms that exploit human privation and disenfranchisement. Instead of exporting democracy, we're importing plantation economics and the objectification of human beings. Instead of promulgating economic equity abroad, we're feeding economic inequity domestically and increasing the deprivations of our own citizens - the children of people who've committed and sacrificed to make our own nation a better place to live. It's a betrayal - the trashing of their sacrifices and labors. It's an abandonment of those wanting to make this nation a better place for their own children - since such a legacy is squandered by cheapening the value of human labor.

[treestar]

54. Why is that so important?

I can think of millions of more important goals. Aren't there actual crimes being committed? Why focus on this breach of the law when it's not that dangerous? DUI or even speeding is more dangerous to others. Are you equally worried about preventing these breaches of the law? Shouldn't you be a lot more worried about those?

What about hitmen or carjackers? Should there be large systems to prevent them from doing what they do, or should such resources be wasted on mere the prevention of illegal immigrants?

Why is it so important to keep them out - any why not change the laws to let them in legally? What's it to you if they become legal? Why aren't you more worried about the mafia, or bushco, or something much more dangerous?

[LostInAnomie]

66. Maybe because traffic violations aren't bringing down the wages of citizens.

And we already devote an inconceivable amount of resources in preventing, arresting, and detaining all the other crimes you listed.

By comparison, we expend pocket change in preventing people we know nothing about and have no way of tracking from crossing the border. Their being here accelerates the suicidal race to the bottom that American workers are already facing. We as citizens have more of an obligation to look out for the well being of fellow citizens. By allowing a flood of illegal labor we are only forcing greater hardships on the citizens that can already least afford it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. Traffic violations lead to death

Our roads are full of illegal motorists. All those damn speeders.

[LostInAnomie]

81. So does allowing untold numbers of gang members and drug runners...

... across the border.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Well according to the rw immigrant bashers, yes.

That's one of their favorite talking points against immigration.

[LostInAnomie]

85. Kinda like how the amnesty crowd calls everyone that disagrees "bigots"

Trying to link me with "rw (illegal) immigrant bashers" is a hackneyed attempt to scare people that disagree with your stance into thinking that they might be labeled. It doesn't change the fact that large numbers of gang members and drug runners have come across our Mexican border. It also doesn't change the fact that the reason they have been able to cross the border is because of our lax stance or illegal immigration.

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. And it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of those who do cross the border

are NOT gang members or criminals or drug dealers. They are human beings trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.

[LostInAnomie]

91. They make a better life for themselves at the expense of ...

... American working people and other legal immigrants that were foolish enough to wait in line.

America is not hurting from a lack of unskilled labor. There are million of citizens who were not fortunate enough to go to college or learn a trade. By allowing these illegal immigrants to cut these people off at the knees, by stealing jobs and lowering the prevailing wage, we are putting a knife in their back. We aren't alleviating hardship, we are spreading it out over a wider area by forcing a race to the bottom.

The only people illegal immigration or "guest worker program" actually help the globalists that reap the profits from exploited labor.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. There is no line for Central American immigrants

The only way for them to come here is illegally. They are desperate and poor and just want to survive. They are not the villain here.

[LostInAnomie]

94. The world is full of the desperate and poor...

... (Asia alone probably has 10X the amount of poor of Central America) but it is not the job of our country to provide work for them all, especially at the expense of those among us that can least afford it. We should provide these countries and their people economic assistance and stimulus, but should not import their excess poor.

Encouraging illegal immigration/guest worker programs only adds fuel to the machine that started the problem in the first place: Capitalism/Globalism.

[pampango]

99. What year is this? Are we talking about the Irish? n/t

[noamnety]

80. I would like a clarification

Black, Women, Gays, Legal Hispanic Immigrents, Jews, etc, all are here legally, and if they can't integrate or take part in American society ...

What exactly do blacks, women, gays, legal hispanic immigrants, Jews, etc. need to do to "integrate" with "american" society?

Who makes up "American" society, and what are those people like?

[Matsubara]

14. Yes, they have the civil right to be escorted back to their home countries.

The poem at the base of Lady Liberty has no relation to or bearing on our Constitution, which grants civil rights to CITIZENS.

I agree that they are being shamefully exploited which is why jail time might be an appropriate punishment for the scofflaws who hire them, thus creating the demand and the market for illegal slave labor.

[Bridget Burke]

21. No, Lady Liberty greeted people who were not yet Citizens.

And emigrating to the USA was much simpler back then. Just pass a physical--and you were in! Now, it's become much harder & more expensive even to get a green card.

And--while many undocumented workers have low wages & bad working conditions--I think that "slave labor" is a demeaning phrase.

Whining for The American Worker while fighting any attempt at immigration reform actually preserves the status quo. So we still have many "illegal" workers--unable to organize.

[thethinker]

27. The term "slave labor" is demeaning?

Then why are Americans allowing it to go on and looking the other way?

Again, there was an important article posted on DU yesterday that got very little attention. It really opened my eyes. I had no idea how poorly some of these legal guest workers were treated. Please go read it:

http://tinyurl.com/2me2se

There is no question we need to help some of these people. We need to put a spot to this exploitation right away. I do not believe that giving them all citizenship fixes anything.

[Bridget Burke]

29. The Guest Worker programs do lead to abuse.

Giving workers legal rights is the way to go. But refusing to do so lets you keep the status quo.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. Because many people are able to see them as a threat rather than human beings.

Just as many people still see blacks and women as threats.

Fear is a great motivator in reducing people to faceless, nameless, bogeymen.

[thethinker]

17. I don't agree with that

That is just silly to accuse people of being a racist because they do not agree with you on the immigration issue.

Go look at the example I gave in #8. I would love to sneak into Canada and pretend to be a citizen so I could use their health care system. It would solve a lot of problems in my life right now.

If I did sneak into Canada and used their health care system and they caught me and deported me, would they be racist? Should I stand at the border and scream "you are violating my civil rights and you are a racist"? That would be stupid.

I think all you folks that want to help the immigrants need to read an article about the guest worker program. There was a link that was posted yesterday and got very little attention:

http://tinyurl.com/2me2se

The legal immigrants coming in under the "guest worker program" and the illegal immigrants coming across the border are being exploited big time by employers who are not paying them the salary they promised and giving them really bad working conditions. These things should not be going on in our country. Yet, they are. These things have been going on under our noses and we have not been aware. These people need our help. There is no question about that. But the solution is not to give them all citizenship. If you think we are doing them any favors letting them be exploited by employers here, you are sadly mistaken.

[Philosoraptor]

18. Few understand the horrific poverty these folks come from.

Imagine your family, your wife and kids, starving to death and the only way to save them was to go to America and get work at more money than you've ever made in your life.

All I'm saying is, these Mexicans aren't coming here to conquer America, they're coming to feed their kids.

Legal or not, we should remember what they are running from, and how good we all have it here without realizing it.

[PsN2Wind]

20. Africa has many more millions of the poverty stricken

Do you feel we should also take them in?
The inscription on the Statue of Liberty is only that, it's not law.
The Statue was dedicated in 1886 when the country had a real need for an increased population, a need the country no longer has.
If the Amnesty or Path to Citizenship is passed and we find the economic and or cultural impact is negative, what do we do then? How do you repair the damage?
Unlike many here, I feel a greater responsibility to my fellow citizens than to the unemployables of other countries that wish to come here to work and to avail themselves of the benefits our country has to offer.

[LanternWaste]

86. I suppose it comes down to what Victor Hugo once wrote...

I suppose it really does comes down to what Victor Hugo once wrote (I paraphrase): Which is more important-- fellow human beings, or imaginary red and black lines on a map...?

[Critters2]

109. Few people in Mexico are actually starving to death

By world standards, Mexico is not a poor nation. It is a nation beset by inequities between the rich and the poor, but those problems won't be solved by moving poor Mexicans here. The Mexican people need to put pressure on their government to share oil and other profits equitably.

For real poverty, look at Africa. Mexico is WEALTHY compared to most of central Africa.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. If they were made full citizens the exploitation would end.

They could vote, join unions, strike, all the things that citizens can do. They would have the right to fight the exploiters, sue them, defy them. Which they can't do now.

[Bridget Burke]

23. Of course--that's the answer.

If all the workers could join unions, sue the exploiters & strike--it would cause problems for The American Businessman. And the International Corporate Business-thing, too.

How many of the Advocates of the American Laborer here at DU are actually union members?

[thethinker]

24. Didn't we try that when Reagan was president?

He gave them citizenship. It made the problem worse, not better. Please understand that he gave them citizenship so his rich friends could have cheap labor. That was the only reason. It only made more of them come to this country.

Should Canada give me citizenship because I have need of using their medical system? If I had Canadian citizenship it would solve a lot of my problems. What do you think would happen if I asked them? How about all the other Americans that have no health care benefits and have really expensive health problems. Should Canada give them citizenship? What would happen if we all just moved there illegally? Do you thunk it would be a wise decision for Canada to take in any American in need of health care (probably millions of us)? What would happen to their health care system if they did?

[Bridget Burke]

30. You're sitting comfortably at your PC composing a bogus analogy.

When you've crossed a desert out of desperation--get back to us.

[PsN2Wind]

25. Why are they not doing that in their own country?

Effect the change there and they don't need to come here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Probably the same reason your ancestors didn't effect the change in their "own" country.

My Irish Grandmother didn't flee Ireland because she was too lazy to "effect change", she fled the poverty of County Mayo and, later, England, and later, Canada, to come here with 4 of her 6 kids to avoid starvation and squalor.

The same as the vast majority of most immigrants to this country. The same reason as most of this newest wave of immigrants don't "stay in their own countries and effect change."

[PsN2Wind]

49. Actually my fathers family did

Ancestors on that side fought in The Revolutionary War and DID effect a change in their own country.
My mothers family came here when this country was begging for immigrants to come to the New World. They were given the opportunity to homestead in the Oklahoma Panhandle. No food stamps, no welfare, no ESL education, no earned income tax credit, only back-breaking years after which you could prove up on a piece of dirt on which you could scratch out a living, in the good years.

[GA_ArmyVet]

58. Great Idea but it still wont work

unless you close the border down and prevent more Illegal, undocumented or whatever you want to call the people coming across the border. Then the US businesses will simply hire the new illegal/undocumented workers at slave salaries and the new "Citizens"/Pardoned Illegals" or whatever name you wish to use for those previously pardoned/assimilate persons, will be unemployed persons suffering from poverty in a country with a much higher cost of living than they were in before. Additionally, the slave labor market keeps wage prices low for legal/documented workers as they have to compete and accept these jobs as well or remain unemployed. It seems to me (and this is just an my opinion)that if we prosecuted the employers for hiring persons who are not supposed to be here, seizing assets of violators, then the underground slave labor market would stop.

[loyalsister]

57. Try that on

if that was your only option to receive chemotherapy any you are reduced to a faceless number. Where, whether in Canada or in the U.S. you are not a person you are simply a "cost."

Does the formula change?

Sorry to sneak in, but I am familiar with people who would have liked to have given it a try.

[BoneDaddy]

73. I tend to agree with you

both the left and the right oversimplify the issue and don't look at the details.

[treestar]

53. IA, and it is hard to see just what they are threatened by

It's no threat to me if a crowd of Mexicans comes over the border and works for peanuts. If some American wants that job, move to the state in question and offer to work there.

[Bridget Burke]

88. The Friends of The American Worker posting at DU....

Prefer jobs in air conditioned offices.

With High-speed Internet connections.

[bamacrat]

28. Because illegal immigrants arent Americans.

Black people in the 60s were. If they were legal citizens who were being oppressed or excluded like blacks were then it would be a civil rights issue. All the people who came in through Ellis Island did it legal and gained civil rights, its the illegal problem.

[NNN0LHI]

32. Gained civil rights?

Most the older folks I knew during the 60's didn't consider blacks American citizens. They wanted to send them back to Africa. Preferably in boats made of cardboard. The ones that I know who are still alive from those days still feel that way. But they are more concerned with hating Mexicans right now.

Don

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. They are human beings

[Cleita]

44. Their human rights are being violated both in the country of their

origin as well as here. That's why accusing them of breaking some archaic and unenforceable laws isn't really humane. They aren't coming here to organize crime and run drugs. They just want to come here to work to escape starvation and privation in ways that many Americans can't even understand.

[bamacrat]

45. That may be true..

By that same logic then marijuana should be legalized. It is prohibited by archaic unenforceable laws and the people caught with it, 750,000/year, are jailed for nothing, there lives are ruined. If they are US citizens they deserve our version of civil rights if not they deserve their countries. It sucks but in 30 years when there are 100,000,000 Mexicans here and our population is nearing the 700,000,000 mark our quality of life will be a thing of the past. Im not blaming it on Mexicans but that is precisely what brought down Rome. Their armies were spread thin and millions of immigrants were flooding into their land and destroyed their way of life. There should be a real compromise, legals stay, illegals shouldnt.

[Cleita]

46. I can't believe anyone in the twenty first century still believes this

shit. First marijuana should be legalized and regulated like alcohol.

The reason Rome was brought down was because the Romans raided every country they conquered leaving their inhabitants with practically nothing. The barbarians at the gate were starving tribes whose only choice was to storm the gates of the richer Romans to get booty.

Also, the Romans started hiring barbarian mercenaries in their legions until there weren't that many Romans in the legions. The barbarians were happy for the jobs, but didn't have the loyalty native Romans would have. It was easy enough for them to turn and follow a chieftain to fight the Romans, who often was also an ex-Roman legionnaire.

700,000,000 new Mexican immigrants are not going to lower the quality of life here in America, anymore than the Irish, Italian, Polish or Asian immigrants did in the nineteenth century. As a matter of fact the new blood made us stronger There will be fewer white people probably and frankly that may not be a bad thing.

What will make us collapse is our foreign policy of raiding and exploiting third world countries much like the Romans did, not because all those brown people are going to come here lowering our standard of living, but because by doing this we help create the conditions that make them need to emigrate from their countries to here. If we don't start getting some true labor friendly liberals along the likes of FDR into office then you will see the loss of our middle class and the divisions of power in the hands of a few ultra rich elites and a large poor working class. That will make us like Rome destroyed from within not by Mexicans.

[GA_ArmyVet]

60. I am good with that

Marijuana shold be legalised...As well as most other drugs...Freedom of choice, Freedom from Government dicating their morals on me.

[Zookeeper]

114. Cleita, "They" are a diverse group.....

"They" aren't exclusively poor, innocent people just trying to "feed their families."

Like it or not, some people who are here illegally are trying to "just make a living" in less than honorable ways:

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2007/05/22/mn/2min22.txt

"MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — Twenty-five men and women have been indicted in what authorities are calling a major prostitution ring in which victims were brought to Minnesota illegally and forced to work in brothels, the U.S. Attorney’s Office said Monday. According to an indictment unsealed Monday, between January 2006 and May 2007, the defendants forced or lured female illegal immigrants and others to Minnesota, then transported them around the state to act as prostitutes for the defendants’ own financial gain.

The brothels were allegedly advertised through business cards written in Spanish.

Officials became aware of the enterprise through the work of St. Paul police Sgt. Gerald Vick, who was killed in May 2005 while working undercover. Vick, a member of the department’s vice squad, learned of an operation in which women from Central America were brought to Minnesota for prostitution.

According to the indictment, Marisol Ramirez, 37, ran the prostitution ring with the help of Roberto Rivera-Miranda, 31. The other defendants are accused of promoting the prostitution ring by either operating or working at the brothels, collecting money, transporting prostitutes, supplying drugs or condoms, or distributing business cards advertising the operation.

Paulose said the conditions the victims were working under were “harsh.” In one incident, the indictment says, a defendant bragged that two women serviced a total of 80 “johns” in one night.

Authorities carried out some of the arrests on Saturday afternoon, in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood. The arrests led to a protest by residents and immigration advocates — because agents with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement were there and it appeared to be a raid to round up illegal immigrants."

The ringleaders were also here illegally.

Does this mean that all illegal immigrants are horrible criminals? No. But, let's not pretend that EVERYONE here illegally is choosing an honorable path to prosperity.

[Bridget Burke]

47. So make becoming legal as easy as it was in the old days....

My grandparents came to Ellis Island & passed physicals.

Presto: They were legal residents of the USA. Free to fight for jobs, raise their kids & become citizens.

The "problem" is why it's so hard to become legal.

[bamacrat]

48. But the Mexicans dont do it legally.

If they did we wouldnt be arguing right now. There should be a cap on how many people we let in like there was back 100 years ago. Open borders is a bad idea,

[Bridget Burke]

72. The Mexicans don't do it legally because it's become much harder...

Harder than it was when MY ancestors came here.

About that "cap" on how many people "we" let in? Immigration quotas weren't created until the 1920's.

No doubt, long after your folks got here. Time to shut the door!

[bamacrat]

76. Im part Indian so someof my ancestors have always been here.

[Marrah_G]

83. what country has the largest percentage of legal immigrants?

[LostInAnomie]

87. Mexicans don't do it legally because there is no need to.

Why wait like everyone else when all they need to do is cross the border and be safe in the knowledge that once they are here the chances that they will be deported or receive any punishment are slim to none?

Why play by the rules that everyone else has to play by?

[JANdad]

82. They can't come here LEAGALLY!

Mexican CAN NOT emigrate here leagally via the lottery...period...check the INS website for details...

[treestar]

52. There was no or few restrictions then

We've made up restrictions since then, they keep out people who otherwise have job offers here and in fact, who have been proven to be needed, via the labor certification procedure.

They keep families apart for years, even decades, if followed legally.

Not only Americans have human rights and civil rights. Everybody does. If they didn't, Americans would be threatened, too, since once the government can decide who is not human and has no rights, it will find a way to make its opponents not-American.

[datasuspect]

38. because it's a human rights issue

and yes, all persons in the US are protected by the constitution, so even undocumented persons have civil rights.

[Cleita]

43. It should be because these are very poor and underprivileged

people. If they were coming here as criminals and drug dealers then I would be more inclined to label them as illegals But in truth their human rights are being violated in the countries of their origins, so they risk coming here illegally for a better life. They truly are caught between a rock and a hard place.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. Cause It's Not A Civil Rights Issue. Might Be In Their Country Based On Conditions But It Ain't Here

I'm still not sure what the right answer is or isn't to the whole illegal immigrant debate. Not sure how I'd solve it or what technically should happen. But I am able to say with confidence that it isn't a civil rights issue, which is why it's not being treated as one.

[tammywammy]

55. Agreed n/t

[ISUGRADIA]

56. Because there's no constitutional right

to immigrate to the United States.

[TheFarseer]

62. Are you kidding?

How can you compare this to black people that were brought over here on death ships and FORCED to work all day and they couldn't leave. This issue is alot more like outsourcing that the Civil rights movement. Are Indians answering the phone calls Americans don't want to answer? Is China building the computers Americans don't want to build? Are Russians designing the aircraft Americans don't want to design? This is all about cheep labor and American workers getting the shaft and I'm sick of everyone missing the point.

[Alcibiades]

70. Bingo

As a side note, there's a lot of confusion here about the rights and principles that underlie our government. As a product of the enlightenment, the Constitution is based upon rights thought to be universal, common to all humanity--however, as a founding document, it sets up a legal jurisdiction that serves as a discrete area under which these universal principles are to be effectuated. Big difference.

[Zookeeper]

69. "Practically slaves" is completely different from the true slavery...

that African-Americans experienced in this country.

If illegal workers become tired of being exploited, they have citizenship in a home country to which they could chose to return.

Black slaves had no citizenship ANYWHERE and didn't have the option to leave if they were tired of being slaves.

The analogy is ridiculous (and kind of offensive).

[Marrah_G]

74. !

:applause:





:yourock:

[H2O Man]

75. It is not a

"civil rights" issue, because illegal immigrants -- no matter what country they come from -- are not citizens. But the status and rights of illegal immigrants can be properly considered a "human rights" issue.

[truebrit71]

90. I think this post just about nails it on the head.

Human Rights vs Civil Rights

[leftofthedial]

92. because the oligarchy wants it framed in such a way

as to preclude the notion that the "illegal aliens" have no civil rights

and the bigots are more than happy to go along with them, as long as we are all clear we are talking about brown-skinned ones.

[Philosoraptor]

98. When the Irish & Chinese workers came here they were hated too.

America has been through this a thousand times.

[WinkyDink]

101. But they nevertheless were LEGAL.

[WinkyDink]

100. Note the discrepancy between your title and your first sentence? Missing word in the latter =

ILLEGAL.

How is advocating anything ILLEGAL the equivalent of fighting for the rights of CITIZENS??