Court set to weigh vaccine link to autism

[MonkeyFunk]

WASHINGTON - Thousands of families that allege vaccines caused their children’s autism are preparing for their day in court, which could bring them vindication and compensation.

Since 1999, more than 4,800 families have filed claims with the government alleging their children contracted autism as a result of routine vaccinations. Most contend that a preservative called thimerosal is to blame for the impaired social interaction typical of the disorder.

Previously, large scientific studies have found no association between autism and vaccines containing thimerosal.


more at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19168291/




This is going to be interesting. If they rule no link exists, the anti-thimerosal fanatics won't accept the verdict as valid. If they rule a link DOES exist, it will largely be so in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary.

This could end up like the Dow-Corning situation - where courts make rulings that have no basis in science.

We don't have a strong history in this country of using courts to decide scientific matters. Yeah, this'll be interesting.

[Warpy]

1. Nothing can dissuade a true believer

and the hucksters who have misinterpreted data have given rise to a whole lot of antivaccination hysterics out there who not only magnify the risks (and yes, there are small risks) but who have no memory of just how bad those "usual childhood diseases" were and how many children were permanently injured or killed every year before we had those vaccinations.

I just hope the judge and jury recognize the difference between cause and coincidence and between scientific data and anecdote.

Ruling against the thimerosal nuts will just be proof that the evil vaccine makers have bought off the judge and jury in order to avoid lawsuits down the line, dontcha know. There is nothing you can do with a true believer.

We can only hope the court is more sensible.

[MonkeyFunk]

5. Yep

I hope the panel rules using the real evidence, but if they do, a lot of people won't accept the decision.

It makes one wonder what role, if any, courts should play in cases like this.

Despite the obvious example of Scopes trial, the courts have generally done pretty well on evolution issues: but they're not deciding the truth or falsehood of evolution per se... they're deciding the role of government and schools in promoting religious ideas vs. scientific ideas.

On other issues, with large amounts of detailed, complicated studies, they don't have such a great record.

[mzmolly]

78. I hope that people like yourself with watch and learn something vs.

the continued useful idiocy that so many here demonstrate. It's a damn shame to see so many 'liberals' succumb to the effects of financially motivated propaganda.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Another Scopes Monkey Trial, eh?

[mzmolly]

79. No, it's another Vioxx type lawsuit.

:hi:

[blogslut]

3. Calling Doctor Frist!

Time to face the lights. ;)

[NorthernSpy]

4. oh, gawwwwwd!

Brace yourself. The press will hype to the heavens all the usual antivaxer junk science, and some people will be scared off vaccinating their children as a consequence. Is science illiteracy a job requirement for a career in mainstream media?


Check out A Photon in the Darkness for reviews of some of the really awful studies likely to be read into evidence in this case.

[MonkeyFunk]

6. Thanks for that link...

I hadn't seen it. Interesting reading.

[MonkeyFunk]

7. kick

I know it's not Paris Hilton or an attack on congressional dems, but it's an interesting topic, nonetheless.

[asthmaticeog]

8. I fear that the effect of this case,

no matter which way the court rules, will be to scare more people off of vaccinating their kids. I guess the scary, strident folks will be happier when kids die of measles for no good reason.

[mzmolly]

80. What about the kids who die from vaccination "for no good reason?"

Or, is vaccinating against diseases which healthy people recover from on their own considered one of the "good reasons" for kids to die?

[LeftishBrit]

91. All medications and vaccinations should be made as safe as possible....

but it is very rare for children to die from a vaccination. On the other hand, two and a half million children die each year because they do NOT have access to vaccinations.

[mzmolly]

92. I take issue with your statements.

"Rare?" Who's tracking deaths from vaccination with accuracy? That is a scientifically unfounded claim. However, given that's factual death from various disease is said to have been "rare" as well.

Further, there are numerous examples of outbreaks of disease in highly vaccinated populations - vaccination is only one measure of potential protection from disease. For example, vaccines have had (at best) only a modest impact on infant mortality in the US. It would be remiss to suggest that vaccines would save those 2.5 millon sans other (more important) measures.

Edited to add link > http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm

In 1900 in some U.S. cities, up to 30% of infants died before reaching their first birthday (1). Efforts to reduce infant mortality focused on improving environmental and living conditions in urban areas (1). Urban environmental interventions (e.g., sewage and refuse disposal and safe drinking water) played key roles in reducing infant mortality. Rising standards of living, including improvements in economic and education levels of families, helped to promote health. Declining fertility rates also contributed to reductions in infant mortality through longer spacing of children, smaller family size, and better nutritional status of mothers and infants (1). Milk pasteurization, first adopted in Chicago in 1908, contributed to the control of milkborne diseases (e.g., gastrointestinal infections) from contaminated milk supplies.

...

During the late 1960s, after Medicaid and other federal programs were implemented, infant mortality (primarily postneonatal mortality) declined substantially (5). From 1970 to 1979, neonatal mortality plummeted 41% (Table 1) because of technologic advances in neonatal medicine and in the regionalization of perinatal services; postneonatal mortality declined 14%. During the early to mid-1980s, the downward trend in U.S. infant mortality slowed (6). However, during 1989-1991, infant mortality declined slightly faster, probably because of the use of artificial pulmonary surfactant to prevent and treat respiratory distress syndrome in premature infants (7). During 1991-1997, infant mortality continued to decline primarily because of decreases in sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) and other causes.

...

The discovery and widespread use of antimicrobial agents (e.g., sulfonamide in 1937 and penicillin in the 1940s) and the development of fluid and electrolyte replacement therapy and safe blood transfusions accelerated the declines in infant mortality; from 1930 through 1949, mortality rates declined 52% (4). The percentage decline in postneonatal (age 28-364 days) mortality (66%) was greater than the decline in neonatal (age 0-27 days) mortality (40%). From 1950 through 1964, infant mortality declined more slowly (1). An increasing proportion of infant deaths were attributed to perinatal causes and occurred among high-risk neonates, especially low birth weight (LBW) and preterm babies. Although no reliable data exist, the rapid decline in infant mortality during earlier decades probably was not influenced by decreases in LBW rates because the decrease in mortality was primarily in postneonatal deaths that are less influenced by birthweight. Inadequate programs during the 1950s-1960s to reduce deaths among high-risk neonates led to renewed efforts to improve access to prenatal care, especially for the poor, and to a concentrated effort to establish neonatal intensive-care units and to promote research in maternal and infant health, including research into technologies to improve the survival of LBW and preterm babies.

The reduction in vaccine-preventable diseases (e.g., diphtheria, tetanus, measles, poliomyelitis, and Haemophilus influenzae type b meningitis) *has reduced infant morbidity and has had a modest effect on infant mortality (9).

*This is a highly questionable statement if one considers cases of autism and other potential morbidity related to vaccination.

[aikoaiko]

9. great. courts determining validity of science.

I understand this is a part of the court system and the civil trials, but courts have no special insight to the science.

[live love laugh]

26. BUT...courts DO have the ability to hear out scientists and make informed decisions. n/t

[aikoaiko]

38. Yes, but Judges are just college educated with generally no background in science.

Juries are generally even less well educated about evaluating science.

Generally, the only things witnesses (the scientists) say is what the advocates for each side want them to say. Advocates that have their clients interest at heart and not necessarily fidelity for the truth.

And when the court (judges or juries) decide something the general public will see that decision as the truth.


But still, the people deserve their day in court and the court system must work its magic.

[mzmolly]

81. Oh no don't worry, money will continue to determine the validity of science.

Thankfully for vaccine manufacturers, most people are effectively brainwashed that "we must never question vaccines."

[aikoaiko]

94. There are enough doctors and scientists not in the pockets of big pharma who do these studies.

Sure, pharmaceutical companies provide a lot of grant and research money out there, but Big Pharma can't buy off all the scientists.

eta:
I'm got no dog in this fight except that I am a believer in science and its self-corrective mechanisms. The biggest studies show no link. When large scale studies start to show the link or the mediating variables, then

[mzmolly]

95. Sure there are and many have indicated what happens to grant money if the

results are not favorable to the grantee. Also big pharma hasn't bought off all scientists and many such scientists have spoken out in measured manner regarding vaccination. Guess what happens/happened to them?

[Karenina]

10. Once again this either/or mentality

that obstructs any real understanding. Having dealt with the issue, the REAL question is the NUMBER of vaccines delivered before development is complete. The way the issue is being framed is to discount and indemnify Big Pharma from claims. My peronal take is that the vaccines EXACERBATED other risk factors. I cannot discount others who had the same experience of children "going off" after rounds of vaccinations. THAT IS ALL.

[MonkeyFunk]

11. But the question

cannot be decided by anecdotes regarding the onset of symptoms being roughly simultaneous with vaccinations.

A correlation is not causation. Perhaps there are OTHER developmental milestones that occur at roughly the same time as standard vaccinations, and that is when symptoms become evident.

It would be just as meaningful, scientifically, to say that breast milk causes autism because the vast majority of kids with autism consumed some.

It's just not scientifically sound to connect two disparate things because they occur in proximity to one another.

[Karenina]

13. I agree with you.

My point is the "either/or" framing inhibits in-depth questions.

[BeHereNow]

16. Check out this site and my post below. I lived it, still do.

http://www.trackingvaccinations.com/allfiles/dpt.htm
BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

21. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

But what evidence do you have that the vaccination caused your child's problems, beyond the proximity of the vaccination and the appearance of symptoms?

[BeHereNow]

22. Did you READ anything on the web site I posted the link to?

Methinks obviously not.
BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

23. Sorry

that website is a mess. Giant articles, all over the place, no coherence.

I'm not going to read such a mess in its entirely. Tell me, in your words, what evidence you have that your child's problem was caused by a vaccine.

[mzmolly]

82. "Mercury is a neurotoxin" - Read the first sentence and tell me what evidence

http://www.epa.gov/mercury/health.htm

YOU prove that this is not the case if the mercury is part of a vaccine concoction? There is no proof that injecting any form of mercury into babies is "safe." And, frankly that's where the burden of proof should lie.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

84. Mercury based thimerosal removed from contact lense solution

Heck, we don't put mercury in our eyes any more:

COSMETICS AND CONTACT LENSESIt is no longer used in contact lens solutions because it caused numerous allergic reactions. Today, mercury-based chemicals similar to thimerosal-including ...
www.contactlensdocs.com/Cosmetics%20and%20Contact%20Lenses.htm

I guess its easier to see a direct correlation between eye damage and thimerosal based contact lense solution, then it is to see brain damage tied to mercury based vaccines.

Aside from mercury, do you know what else is in vaccines?

[mzmolly]

85. And it was removed from animal vaccines long before human vaccines.

Funny that the animal population has survived in spite of it all?

[mzmolly]

83. The question is why is mercury considered "safe" if it's in a vaccine but not in fish?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

[BeHereNow]

14. Thank you, I could not agree more. (Asperger mom here)

My kid had a severe DPT reaction- was never the same after.
Thankfully, she is fine now- struggles somewhat because of the
aspergers, but is doing fine in the big picture of life.
Certainly better than those who suffered brain damage
from DPT reactions.
Thankfully, I ignored her doctor and took her to the
emergency room when she had the reaction.
She was brought back within minutes after she
stopped breathing- if I had not had her there,
she might have died or been severely brain damaged.
I consider us among the lucky ones.
BHN

[Karenina]

18. Our pediatrician was a Santa Monica "celebrity" dude.

We spoke in shorthand, as I am the daughter of a neuropsychiatrist. He KNEW if I was calling after hours, it was SERIOUS. We worked TOGETHER for the furtherance of HIS broad spectrum knowledge and his patient. I did "layman's research" under his guidelines. I cannot tell you what a hassle it was to get my kids OUT of his office. :rofl:

Me: OK let's go.

Kid Unit: Can I talk to J. again?

Me: Yes, next time.

Kid Unit: No, I mean NOW.

Me: No, we're done. He has other patients.

Kid Unit: Can I say goodbye again?

Me: AAAARRRRGHHH!

Nurse to kid: Come with me.

Dr.J. :hug:

Kid Unit: OK, we can go now.

[mzmolly]

86. Oh my, I'm so sorry.

But, I'm glad she's doing well and that you trusted your self to know what was best.

[Edweird]

12. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm curious....

I remember hearing that there was mercury in the vaccine, and that was the autism connection. Is that incorrect?

[BeHereNow]

15. Here is a great web site for you-

http://www.trackingvaccinations.com/allfiles/dpt.htm

My daughter's AD reaction was linked to the DPT shot-
this site explained to me what happened.
Her symptoms were identical to what is described on the page.
Her doctor told me it was normal- thank God I didn't listen to him
and took her to the emergency room.
BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

19. There used to be

mercury in some vaccines. hasn't been for awhile, and yet autism is still being diagnosed in record numbers.

Many believe the loosening of standards in diagnosing such disorders account for the numbers.

There has never been a proven link between vaccines and autism.

[BeHereNow]

24. IF you had read anything on the link I posted- sorry if science is hard for you-

you would know that the dendrite damage, due to the lack of
development of the myelin sheath, is what is associated with
autism, NOT mercury.

Up thread, you called the site posted a mess- I beg to differ
and consider your unwillingness to educate yourself
the real reason you will not read the information there.

Until you have dealt with it personally,
raising an child damaged by vaccines, PERTUSSIS in particular,
I suggest you keep your opinions and postulations to
yourself.

You have no idea what parents go through-
we really don't need confrontational, egotistical web warriors,
unwilling to learn anything, such as yourself, weighing in
on our children and what happened to them because of
vaccinations; I was there- you were not.
I KNOW my child was damaged and that she changed significantly
after the incident.

Until you read up on the link between pertussis and autism further, I have nothing more
to say to you.

BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

27. I have read a lot of articles regarding this

and most of them were much more readable than the site you linked to.

You want to present this as an issue of ignorance - "if only you knew what *I* know, you'd agree with me". That is simply not true.

I've read plenty of information on both sides, and I remain unconvinced that vaccinations are involved. In fact, I'm not the only one. The vast majority of scientists who study this issue are unconvinced, too.

The side that argues in favor of blaming vaccines seem to rely far too heavily on anecdotes.

[BeHereNow]

28. Get back to me when you hold YOUR child in your arms and she stops breathing.

HOURS after a DPT vaccination and YOU are told, BY THE DOCTOR, it was due to
the pertussis in the vaccination.
Then spend twenty years of YOUR life dealing with a child forever
damaged by the pertussis in the vaccination.
ADMITTEDLY so, by the doctors themselves.

BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

29. appeal to emotion

is not science.

again, I'm sorry you're going through this. But it doesn't mean your suspicions about a scientific matter are correct.

[BeHereNow]

31. Science on the link between Pertussis and ADR in infants.

Although I know you just want to antagonize me on an issue you
clearly know nothing about, I will provide you with the following
about ADR and pertussis in the DPT vaccine
I hope you never experience it yourself as a parent.
Please do take the time to actually read it.
Perhaps then, if you ever have the misfortune of
being a parent whose child is damaged by a vaccine,
you will at least know something about it.
BHN

"DPT Vaccine Causes Brain Inflammation

By 1947, the first reports of brain inflammation and chronic brain damage, including death, after pertussis vaccination were published (Brody, 1947; Byers and Moll, 1948). In 1955, Niels Low showed that the EEG (electroencephalogram) of infants sometimes was altered by the DPT shot. He concluded that "mild, but possibly significant, cerebral reactions occur in addition to the reported very severe neurological changes."

By 1982, numerous reports of CNS dysfunction following DPT vaccination had appeared in the medical literature (Berg, 1958; Strom, 1960, 1967; Dick, 1967, 1974; Kuhlenkampff, 1974; Stewart, 1977, 1979). In 1981, Pediatrics published a UCLA/FDA study by Cody et al revealing that 1 in 875 DPT shots in the U.S. is followed by a convulsion or collapse/shock reaction.

Finally, after more than 40 years of evidence in the medical literature that the DPT vaccine was causing brain inflammation and CNS damage in previously healthy children, this fact was confirmed by medical science in the 1981 National Childhood Encephalopathy Study (NCES) and in 1991 and 1994 by the Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences (IOM).

Brain Damage On A Continuum

Signs of brain inflammation within seven days of DPT vaccination can range from high fever, irritability, high pitched screaming, prolonged crying for hours, drowsiness, and vomiting to seizures, collapse and unresponsiveness (altered state of consciousness) followed by immediate frank regression or progressive changes in mental, emotional and physical health ending with a diagnosis of mental retardation, seizure disorders, learning disabilities and other chronic neurological damage. DPT vaccine-induced brain inflammation, the IOM noted in 1994, is associated with a "broad range of long term dysfunctions (neurological, behavioral, educational, motor, sensory, and self care dysfunctions)" that are similar to those experienced by children after serious acute neurologic illnesses due to other causes.



A Shot in the Dark

One of the sources of information reviewed by the IOM and included in references in their 1991 report on pertusiss vaccine was original research documenting more than 100 case histories of DPT vaccine associated immune mediated neurological dysfunction contained in Coulter and Fisher’s DPT: A Shot in the Dark (Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1985; Warner, 1986; Avery, 1991). Their book was the first to undertake an extensive examination of the history of pertussis and the pertussis vaccine within the larger context of the medical, scientific, legal, social, and political issues involving mass vaccination policies.

In their book, Coulter and Fisher described numerous case reports in more than 50 years of medical literature and in new case studies they presented of children, who had been developing normally (and in many cases were of above average intelligence), and then received a DPT shot (often simultaneously with live oral polio vaccine) who then exhibited symptoms of brain inflammation, including high fever, extreme drowsiness, vomiting, high pitched screaming, seizures, and alterations of consciousness. Many of these children were subsequently diagnosed as mentally retarded, epileptic, learning disabled, hyperactive, or autistic.

In a good number of cases, the children who had reacted neurologically to DPT were allergic, particularly to milk, or had been vaccinated while they were sick with a coinciding viral or bacterial infection. In addition to neurological damage, many were also left with chronic gastrointestinal dysfunction and severe allergies, as well as autoimmune disorders such as asthma. The personal or family history of autoimmune disorders appeared to outweigh a history of neurological disorders in terms of being a high risk factor for reacting to DPT, although a history of convulsions in the family was also a high risk factor."
http://www.909shot.com/Diseases/autismsp.htm

[MonkeyFunk]

34. show me the

peer-reviewed scientific studies that confirm that vaccines cause autism.

No offense, but everything else is just chatter.

[K8-EEE]

41. I have a very sweet 13 y/o "dog" in this fight.

She changed and immediately after the 18 month MMR vaccine. Believe it or not. Everyone in my family noticed. Naturally people will come and bite my head off about this; let them. And no NOT ALL VAX ARE BAD! Yes, MERCURY BASED PRESERVATIVES FOR INFANTS ARE BAD!

[Edweird]

43. No disrespect intended. I was not in any way comparing children to dogs,

merely using a poorly chosen figure of speech to indicate that I was not posting to enter the "fray", but merely seeking an answer.

[K8-EEE]

46. There are people who will tell you that we are "hysterical" for thinking

that there is ANY environmental cause for the autism boom, or even that an autism boom exists at all.

These people have agendas that have nothing to do with my agenda which is: how can I save other families from this pain. I can only tell my story and stand up to people who will call me "hysterical."

[Edweird]

49. I just posted an article about how there is poison toothpaste here in America.

I can see how anything is possible, especially as it relates to the sad state of our healthcare and our public wellbeing.
Our government has dropped the ball. As far as there being a connection... if it looks like a duck... you know the rest.

[BeHereNow]

54. Amen sister. And MOST of all-

IF you suspect your child is having an adverse drug reaction to
a vaccination, tell the doctor who assures you it is normal to
go fuck themself and get to an emergency room.
I know that is why my kid is alive today.
BHN

[mzmolly]

87. And bravo to you for doing so.

I am so disgusted by the lack of humanity among some DU-ers who dismiss the reality of their progressive brothers and sisters with degrading posts time and time again.

Why people can't assert their opinion without being "freeper-esque" is beyond me.

[K8-EEE]

50. Oh I know, it's OK!!

I'm just annoyed at the "parents of kids with autism are so kooky and hysterical" posts that always pop up when this subject comes up, I know you are just asking, no problemo!

[mzmolly]

88. "parents of kids with autism are so kooky and hysterical"

Agreed, it does not speak well of some who call themselves progressive.

[BeHereNow]

45. THANK YOU! I too, had that experience.

My kid had a SEVERE reaction to the pertussis in the the DPT-
stopped breathing, the works.
She is a mild asperger- highly functioning in certain areas,
completely helpless in others.
An exceptionally gifted artist, but practically NO
living/social skills what so ever.
She was completely changed after the DPT reaction.
But, she is mine and I love her just the way she is.
I wonder sometimes how she might have turned out, were
it not for the pertussis poisoning, but hey, you
can't change the past, so you deal with what IS.
Blessings to you and your beautiful one.
BHN

[K8-EEE]

48. Blessings to you as well

My daughter is so lovely and also artistic, also I can't ever imagine her ever taking care of herself. Also given our current fascist-leaning government and "I've got mine, fuck you" freeper type attitude about taking care of the weakest among us, I don't know what would happen if we were not here for her. This is a thought that has me staring at the ceiling for many many late night hours. I mean, my husband and I are afraid to even be on the same plane together.

[BeHereNow]

51. I KNOW the feeling.

My aspie just got her first apartment.
She can't even figure out how to contact the phone company to
hook up a line.
She would never call to order pizza either- the social interaction impairment and all.
I'm flying out to see her next week, so i will take care of the real life stuff
when I am there. In the meantime, I ask God to watch out for her.
What spectrum is your baby?
BHN

[K8-EEE]

61. Well, she is autistic, not aspie.

She didn't speak at five y/o and they said she never would, well that was wrong because we didn't give up and now she speaks. Her understanding even the concept of language and actually speaking and having social interaction and all the things people take for granted is like, the end of Rocky. It's like the end of Rocky every day around here in some way or another. From age 2 to age 5 she did not notice me. I mean she did notice me at all. Totally in her own world. Parents, I cannot even explain this heartache so I won't try. But we never gave up trying to get her back out. Just now she said, Mommy you're crying. That's a miracle right there. I'm telling you, she used to not notice me at all. Yes, I am crying because I'm so sick of these smug know it all assholes. I see the cruel BushCo world out there and I try to see her in it and OK in it. I just have to MAKE it OK in some way, and make her safe in some way.

[BeHereNow]

62. Are you using ABA with her? Many have had great success with ABA.

Also, diet and supplemental nutrients have been noted
to greatly increase communication- My apsie is, for the
most part, fairly high funtioning. She always communicated,
just not always in a way we could understand-
sensitive to sound, rigid food rituals etc...
Do check out some of the links I have posted on this thread-
especially the ones that discuss alternative treatments.
I started my kid on supplements at an early age-
mostly as an alternative for allegy/respiratory problems-
Another backlash associated with the pertussis poison-
little did I know, the supplements I was giving her for the
respiratory problems are also known to lessen autistic symptoms!
Hooray for happy accidents.
There are certain things she will never be able to do-
I focus on helping her with the ones she can.
Love to you and your baby.
BHN

[Feron]

104. You can't ABA, chelate, or supplement autism away...

Many autistics are against ABA because it only seems to benefit the parent and not the child. Michelle Dawson, an autistic woman, wrote a great piece about it http://www.sentex.net/~nexus23/naa_aba.html">here.

Furthermore chelation and supplements are nothing more than quackery. Supplements/chelation help autism about as much as a copper bracelet helps arthitis.

All three "treatments" above are popular in the "curebie" community, but highly unpopular in the autistic community. Perhaps these parents ought to start listening to their children instead of presuming that they have nothing to say and speaking for them.

http://www.autistics.org/library/dontmourn.html">Don't mourn for autistics

Additionally many studies have proven that there is a genetic aspect to autism. Just because your daughter had an adverse reaction does not mean that it made her autistic. I'm personally unconvinced that a jab can cause autism.

Anyhow here is an entire http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/">forum full of Aspies and NTs are welcome. :)

[BeHereNow]

63. Forgot to say... do not assume that she did not notice you-

Autistic people are accutely aware- it just does not look the
way you expect it to.
I work with autistic kids- I have thought that a conversation I had
with another person went completely ignored, only to have an
autistic child bring it up hours or days later.
She loves you- trust me on that.
She just has no idea how to communicate in the way you
expect. She hears EVERYTHING you say.
Trust me on this.
BHN

[K8-EEE]

66. Yes I have had that experience many times!

Including when she was younger, she could even be talking to herself and at the same time later repeat something I had said.

[BeHereNow]

67. Are you familiar with ABA and the research on supplements and autism?

I'm going to bed now, but PLEASE feel free to PM me and
we can hook up over the phone tomorrow-
I would love to share with you what I KNOW to be successful
with autistic children.
Like I said, my daughter is an aspie, a high functioning autistic-
I consider the challenges we have faced MILD compared to some of the kids
I work with- that said, let me assue you that I have seen
miracles with ABA and supplement/diet modifications.
Again, love to you and your special child.
BHN

[alittlelark]

64. The same thing happened to my best friends daughter

She was interactive, engaging, playful..... after the boosters she changed within weeks.

I guess I'm one of those 'true believer' nut jobs. I do not trust tests run by groups that know billions could be lost in lawsuits due to thimerisol aka :MERCURY damaging toddlers oftentimes to the degree that they will need 24/7 care for life.


It's a sick situation.

[Duppers]

117. ding, ding, ding: "billions could be lost in lawsuits due to thimerosal aka MERCURY"

that's their bottom line.

They'll use any whore 'scientist' to say what they want.


Check out another related thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x21376




We do not want the elimination of vaccines, but we want SAFE vaccines.

Almost every vaccine used for children is now produced in a thimerosal-free form. Several vaccines continue to have trace amounts of thimerosal. Ask your doctor for thimerosal-free vaccines. Ask to see the package insert and the vial that is used that contains the vaccine. Some versions of tetanus and flu vaccines still contain the full amount of thimerosal.

[w8liftinglady]

17. In a related story-also a connection between coal energy plants and autism

http://www.txpower.org/News_HouChron_031705.html
This has been a big deal for me,as I live in Smoky Joe Barton's district,who is coal energy's bitch in Congress.

[alittlelark]

65. A lot of mercury (aka thimerisol) is belched out of those plants.

Not a surprise.

[Canuckistanian]

20. This case shouldn't be the deciding factor

Those who believe that thimerosal causes autism should call for more studies, not hang their hopes on a less-than-fully-informed court verdict.

I have an autistic son and we've watched these thimerosal dramas been played out before. Science hasn't verified the hypothesis, despite many, many studies, both experimentally and statistically.

People are expecting a quick, easy answer and I suspect there isn't one.

[live love laugh]

25. "...anti-thimerosal fanatics..."???? !!!!! nt

[MonkeyFunk]

30. What's so shocking?

That's a lot of punctuation!

My point was that there's no solid science indicating that vaccines cause autism. There's a lot of supposition, and a lot of anecdotal stories, but no real evidence.

People often let their emotions get in the way of the facts. Dow-Corning was forced into bankruptcy over pure pseudo-science.

My best friend, who has a severley autistic son, was fooled for two years by the "assisted communication" farce.

People involved in this have an emotional stake, for the most part. It doesn't mean they're right.

[BeHereNow]

33. You are quite misinformed.

http://www.kem.edu/dept/clinical_pharmacology/adverse_event_month_case/case_june2005.htm

You seem stuck on the mercury connection- research the pertussis connection
if you want to stop coming off as know nothing but what Fox news feeds you.
BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

35. OK

I've never focused on mercury, although you seem to think I have.

Where are the peer-reviewed studies showing vaccines cause autism? And keep in mind, any study you might cite can be countered by far more showing the contrary view.

[BeHereNow]

36. Tell me what you think autism is-

I know what it is; I have an aspie daughter.
I know there is a link between the pertussis in the DPT
shot and what happened to her.
How do I know this?
By knowing about pertussis ADR and autism.
I have repeatedly asked you to read up on it,
so far, nada. I have provided you several MEDICAL
links on the topic.
You have read none of it.
So how are we to discuss the subject further?
We are not operating from the same facts or research.
BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

55. And I have read up on it

I just disagree with your conclusions.

You act as if the only people who disagree with you are ignorant. That is not the case.

It's quite possible for people to have read the literature and disagree with you.


edit: Again, I'm sorry you're going through this.

[BeHereNow]

58. I am not sorry- my kid is WONDERFUL, now would you please provide some links

to what you have read about it?
I am curious to see if your sources are funded by the pharma cartel.
As a matter of fact, I would put money on the fact that they are.

You have stated, more than once on this thread, that you have read a considerable
amount of literature on this topic- since you are NOT the parent of
an ADR vaccination victim, I consider it safe to say you have not researched the
topic nearly as thoroughly, or for as long as I have, but please, do share
some of your sources with us.

I am curious to read about the foundation of your beliefs.

Perhaps I will learn something, although I doubt it.
At the very least, I will grant you the courtesy of actually
reading your information; something you have yet to do for me.
BHN

[K8-EEE]

52. Where were the "peer reviewed" studies on tobacco

for 10 years after they knew what they knew?

Same with the "gay teens are more prone to suicide" stats, where are the studies of gay teens from accepting backgrounds vs. gays from Freeper/Alan Keyes families?

Not every study is financed or done or complete - and some are blocked by special interests. You don't have the answers.

[BeHereNow]

56. EXACTLY! As IF the pharma funded studies are going to allow this info out?

The people who PROFIT from the vaccinations are also the people
who FUND the research.
As IF they would ever tell the truth about ADRs in infant vaccinations,
OR the effects of SSRI drugs in people under 18.
Japan, India and the UK are MILES ahead of revealing this information.
But of course, the op can't be bothered with such facts.
BHN

[K8-EEE]

59. Please be reasonable....

If Big Pharma even suspected they had a hand in poisoning a generation of American children, the FIRST THING they would do is make sure EVERY STUDY WAS FUNDED AND DONE ASAP....then they would take full responsiblity IMMEDIATELY! That's why they have all those LOBBYISTS just to make sure the RIGHT THING IS DONE BY OUR KIDS!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[BeHereNow]

60. Uh-huh! WHAT was I thinking?

You rock, fellow mom.
BHN

[K8-EEE]

53. You seem to KNOW that it's OK to give mercury to infants.

Bullshit.

[K8-EEE]

44. Well, don't believe us then.

It doesn't mean we're not right either. I called my Dr. 2 days after that damn shot. She changed after it. Yes I have an "emotional stake" well somebody with cancer also has an emotional stake, so I guess just disregard anybody who is living with ANY problem, they know nothing about it.

[BeHereNow]

47. I've got your back K8-EEE- the op knows NOTHING about it.

Don't waste your breath on people who have not
walked in your moccasins, as the saying goes.
Funny how people who know nothing about it want to tell
the rest of us how it is...eh?
Would you be willing to place a bet along side me
that the op has no kids, and certainly none
who were CLEARLY damaged after a vaccination?
Put your money next to mine babe,
it's a sure win.
BHN

[MonkeyFunk]

105. Sorry

but having a child with autism doesn't make you a scientist.

It's very simple - science has not shown that vaccines cause autism. Your anecdotal evidence simply isn't sufficient to prove a cause and effect.

You can insult me all you want - I guess it's easier than actually providing evidence.

[rucky]

32. Please explain the rise in autism. n/t

[JohnLocke]

57. There are several reasons:

"Many epidemiologists argue that the rise in the incidence of autism in the United States is largely attributable to a broadening of the diagnostic concept, reclassifications, public awareness, and the incentive to receive federally mandated services"

Jick, H; JA Kaye (December 2003). "Epidemiology and causes of autism". Pharmacotherapy 23 (12): 1524-30.

Others think enviromental factors; many think thimerosal; Probably some combination.

[Marrah_G]

37. Growing up our family never knew anyone with autism, but now...

My best friend has identical twin girls. One is autistic, but she does communicate, albiet in a limited way.

Then my cousin had quadruplets, paternal girls and identical boys. One of the identical boys is a savant type Autistic. he doesn't communicate, but he can play and compose music and seems to understand numbers in a way "normal" people just cannot fathom.

I just find it very odd that I know 2 autistic kids and both are an identical twins.

I won't even venture to explain why that might be, I just can't help but think there must be some sort of reason out there.

[BeHereNow]

39. A woman in my neighborhood is an expert in the field-

She believes it is primarily a genetic factor- my niece had TWO
autistic children, one severe, one mild- as I have said earlier in
the thread, my own daughter is a high functioning asperger-
therefore, the genetic factor is worth considering-
HOWEVER, I also happen to believe that the pre-existing gene
may be aggrevated or triggered by the vaccinations.
My kid was completely normal until the 18 month DPT.
If you read some of the links I have TRIED to convince the OP
to read, you will see that there are many researchers who link
the pertussis ADR in the DPT vaccination to the nuerological damage to the
brain that results in SEVERAL disorders, including autism.

I work with autistic children- across the board, the mothers I
speak to about it all agree, their children were fine before
various vaccinations.
I concur.

But then, what could mothers possibly know about
their flesh and blood?
Nothing the pharma cartel wants you to know.

BHN

[mzmolly]

77. Your post mirrors the opinion of scientists who feel there is a link.

Most of said scientists believe that there is a genetic predisposition coupled with an environmental insult that produces the condition.

I tend to agree with you on this.

[K8-EEE]

42. Here comes the people telling you it's all about diagnostics.

Bullshit. There are TONS OF AUTISTIC KIDS OUT THERE. I'm not talkin' ADD/Aspies who used to be not diagnosed, I'm talking, hand-flapping, ritualistic stuff, all the things a parent of an autistic parent would notice 2 blocks away. My husband works in a dept. of 30 people and 3 autistic kids. Classical autism, all my years growing up in a Catholic school, so many Down's kids especially in the big families but ZERO with autism. Now there's hardly a family unaffected.

[LeftishBrit]

75. Many of them were diagnosed as 'mentally handicapped' 30 years ago

Diagnostic changes aren't just at the higher end of the scale.

Also, more babies survive severe prenatal and birth difficulties, and they are at greater risk for autism.

I also suspect that we will be finding out more about pollutants and/or infections that affect mothers in early pregnancy, and increase the risk to their babies.

[LeftishBrit]

74. Perinatal problems are a risk factor for autism (e.g. prematurity; low birthweight)...

and these are commoner in twins and especially in higher order multiple births.

So yes, autism is probably commoner in twins and other multiples.

I knew people growing up who would probably have been labelled as autistic now, but had other diagnoses then: 'odd' or 'maladjusted' at one end of the scale; 'educationally subnormal' or 'mentally handicapped' at the other.

[K8-EEE]

40. Cue up the "hysterical parents" accusations! Ooops they already did.

Speaking as one of the "hysterical parents" who think that injecting infants with stuff laced with mercury is not good, it never fails to amaze me that these people are always 2 seconds out of the box with the "hysteria" accusations.

Serious agendas going on. Just sayin'. And NO FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME I don't think ALL VACCINATIONS ARE BAD and YES FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME my kids have their meningitis and polio and I don't want them to get either of those diseases.

Sheesh!!!

[mzmolly]

89. Ah yes and lest we not forget "anti-science nut jobs."

The aforementioned slur includes noted international scientists by the way.

[Savannah_H]

68. Parents are Right

If after my child had just gotten a vaccine, he/she became violently sick, I'd suspect the vaccine too. Doesn't take a rocket scientist.

[The Straight Story]

69. I am with you on that - which is why I waited with all my kids till they were older

to get all those shots.

But at least when they are older (6/7) they can communicate how they feel to you and what they are going through.

[K8-EEE]

71. I didn't even question it

It would never have occured to me in a million years (this was in 1994) to say, "so is there mercury in that MMR vaccine?" It is so odd to me that they would use something mercury based since it is known to be detrimental to children's development....I also didn't ask if there was rat poison or lead added to it. I never questioned the doctors then but boy I do now, and everybody who tells you just go along with whatever they say, can look at Vioxx and hormone replacement therapy and a million other mistakes they made (and subsequent downplaying of same.)

[MonkeyFunk]

73. and if they had a bowel movement at

8:52 am that day, would you blame having a bm at that particular time?

Correlation is not causation.

[K8-EEE]

70. Here's A Site Who's "Science" MonkeyFunk Would Approve Of

http://www.ff.org/centers/csspp/misc/index.html

You see? Although the FDA now tells pregnant women and children to limit fish consumption because of mercury exposure, here's a "scientific" site that has TONS OF ARTICLES about how silly it is to worry about such things. Oh those hysterical parents (and FDA) worrying about mercury exposure through fish!

If you'll notice, the other section of the "scientific" site has to do with Global Warming being a figment of Al Gore's imagination. It's a known fact that the sun is getting hotter, and there's not a thing you can do about it!

Yes! These idiots are PRO mercury exposure (and we eat, drink and breathe PLENTY OF IT without shooting up our infants with it thank you very much.)

That makes sense. They're also on the Exxon list for having taken a quarter mil from them -- and the tuna lobby too I'll bet!

[CraftyGal]

72. Here we go again....

This is nuts! :crazy: When are people going to let it go? Does it matter why? or How? I used to think so. I am not autistic or on the spectrum, however I am dealing with a degenerative muscle disease, a mild form of Muscular Dystrophy, in addition to Chronic Kidney Disease. I was adopted so I didn't have access to medical records until 10 yrs ago when I met my birth mother. The doctors think it is a genetic mutation. It just is what it is.

I have learned how to cope with my day to day struggles and take it a day at a time. At some point I will be on dialysis and will need a kidney transplant, when that will be, I don't know. I could sit ont he pity pot and go whoa is me or deal with.

No amount of compensation is going to change things for me, so why worry about it?

Crafty

[mzmolly]

76. I'm glad to see the bullshit up front anyhow.

Apparently this is what we can expect?

This is going to be interesting. If they rule no link exists, the anti-thimerosal fanatics won't accept the verdict as valid. If they rule a link DOES exist, it will largely be so in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary.

What you fail to "get" is that there is evidence that the brain is harmed by mercury, that evidence is OVERWHELMING. So, let me rephrase your statement to one that is more "correct.

This is going to be interesting. If they rule no link exists, the pro drug co. fanatics will deem the verdict invalid. If they rule a link DOES exist, it will largely be so in the face of a massive/costly propaganda effort designed to protect drug co. profiteers.

[Sorwen]

90. Epidemiology trumps toxicology

There's no dispute that mercury is a neurotoxin, but that does not mean that thimerosal causes autism or does any other harm. The toxicology shows that it could cause harm, but the epidemiological evidence shows that it hasn't. The size of the dose is very important. It is not true that mercury at any dose will necessarily cause harm.

[mzmolly]

93. Who's epidemiological evidence?

Your claim is incorrect, in fact a Government report has shown 'epidemiological' evidence that indicates in increase in autism. The reports are dismissed by money interests for various reasons, but they do exist.

That said I disagree fully with your X trumps Y assessment. Diagnostic criteria changes with the wind.

[Sorwen]

96. Scientists', as reported in peer-reviewed journals

Here's a few examples:

Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D. "Autism and thimerosal-containing vaccines: lack of consistent evidence for an association." American Journal of Preventative Medicine 2003 Aug;25(2):101-6. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=12880876">Link

"CONCLUSIONS: The body of existing data, including the ecologic data presented herein, is not consistent with the hypothesis that increased exposure to Thimerosal-containing vaccines is responsible for the apparent increase in the rates of autism in young children being observed worldwide."

Doja A, Roberts W. "Immunizations and autism: a review of the literature." The Canadian Journal of Neurological Sciences 2006 Nov;33(4):341-6. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17168158&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum">Link

"Because of a temporal correlation between the first notable signs and symptoms of autism and the routine childhood vaccination schedule, many parents have become increasingly concerned regarding the possible etiologic role vaccines may play in the development of autism. In particular, some have suggested an association between the Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine and autism. Our literature review found very few studies supporting this theory, with the overwhelming majority showing no causal association between the Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine and autism. The vaccine preservative thimerosal has alternatively been hypothesized to have a possible causal role in autism. Again, no convincing evidence was found to support this claim, nor for the use of chelation therapy in autism."

Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK. "Thimerosal-containing vaccines and autistic spectrum disorder: a critical review of published original data." Pediatrics. 2004 Sep;114(3): 793-804. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15342856&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus">Link

"CONCLUSIONS: Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autistic spectrum disorders (ASD), and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions. Evidence does not support a change in the standard of practice with regard to administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in areas of the world where they are used."

Miles JH, Takahashi TN. "Lack of association between Rh status, Rh immune globulin in pregnancy and autism." American Journal of Medical Genetics. 2007 May 16. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez">Link See also http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070516071735.htm">Science Daily: Study Finds No Link Between Autism And Thimerosal In Vaccines

"These findings support the consensus that exposure to ethylmercury in thimerosal is not the cause of the increased prevalence of autism."

[mzmolly]

99. We could post dueling studies all day.

Some food for thought:

http://www.ehponline.org/members/2006/114-2/focus.html

Potentially even more disturbing is that a number of epidemiologic studies suggest that the incidence of certain disorders is on the rise. In the United States, the diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorders increased from 4-5 per 10,000 children in the 1980s to 30-60 per 10,000 children in the 1990s, according to a report in the August 2003 Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. Similarly, notes a report in the February 2002 issue of CNS Drugs, the diagnosis of ADHD grew 250% between 1990 and 1998. The number of children in special education programs classified with learning disabilities increased 191% between 1977 and 1994, according to an article in Advances in Learning and Behavioral Disabilities, Volume 12, published in 1998.

More "food for thought." http://psychrights.org/Articles/LevineLillyandBush.htm

[Sorwen]

101. Do those studies cite a cause?

Do they implicate vaccines in any way, or do they just say that the diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorders is increasing? The increase in diagnosis is largely, if not entirely, due to the fact that the definition of autistic spectrum disorders was broadened to include disorders not previously diagnosed as autism, and also due to increased efforts at diagnosis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16919130&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum">Here's another study from 2006 which says "There has (probably) been no real increase in the incidence of autism. There is no scientific evidence that the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine or the mercury preservative used in some vaccines plays any part in the aetiology or triggering of autism, even in a subgroup of children with the condition."

Also, hasn't mercury been removed from almost all vaccines since about 2002? And yet the rate of autism diagnosis has not declined.

[mzmolly]

103. Read the article.

As I've stated, we can post "dueling" science all day long.

[Sorwen]

97. I'm sure you can find a handful of contrary studies

You can also find a few scientists that say humans don't cause global warming or who argue for "intelligent design" or various pseudosciences, but the vast majority of scientists are on the other side in those arguments. The point being that we have to look at the consensus opinion and the degree to which the scientists agree. You can seach PubMed and find a couple studies showing a link between vaccines and autism, but the vast majority show no link.

[mzmolly]

98. Consensus is purchased regarding the denial of global warming and harm from vaccination.

As for your "vast majority" claim - it's a nice talking point, but that's about it.

[Sorwen]

100. ?

I don't know what you mean by that. You can click on the links I provided and read the research yourself.

If you're suggesting that the consensus scientific opinion is wrong because it is influenced by business interests, I would completely disagree. That's a common type of argument made by supporters of various pseudosciences.

[mzmolly]

102. I'm suggesting that science surrounding the drug approval process is

purchased/full of holes/not reliable.

Marcia Angell - the former head of the JAMA, agrees.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/thc/hcr/2004/00000034/00000005/art00015

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Drug-Companies-Deceive/dp/0375508465

I am naturally skeptical of purchased "science."

[MonkeyFunk]

106. do you believe

that every scientist studying this who sees no link is bought off? That the self-correcting mechanisms of science don't work at all? That EVERY study on this topic is paid for by pharmaceutical companies?

That's crazy.

[mzmolly]

107. I believe that those who fund studies own the data and can publish

or withhold data to their liking. I believe that funding can be and has been pulled if results unfavorable to a particular "agenda" are presented. I believe that many good scientists are out of work for not towing a given company line. I believe that the FDA is in bed with big pharma. Further, my "beliefs" are widely documented.

[MonkeyFunk]

108. You didn't answer any of my questions

[mzmolly]

109. Sure I did.

:hi:

[MonkeyFunk]

113. No, you really didn't.

read my questions again.

[mzmolly]

115. Are you familiar with the scientist who developed the HPV vaccine?

She came out with the SAME critique many others did on that vaccine and how it was being used and marketed. Those who "question" are not the fools.

The system is corrupt.

do you believe that every scientist studying this who sees no link is bought off?

I believe that the studies that indicate the "no link" mantra are often political in nature, often funded by industry - either directly or indirectly and are conducted with the goal of dismissing legitimate concern. I believe that impartial studies do show a connection, and until we get drug money out of our science we are not in a position to defend said science as actual "science."

That the self-correcting mechanisms of science don't work at all?

You'd have to be more specific here. Again, I think that money talks.

That EVERY study on this topic is paid for by pharmaceutical companies?

I believe that the majority of studies are, yes. And, that's documented. Further study info paid for by pharma is proprietary, again think Vioxx.

That's crazy.

No, it's informed.

Do you think that those who risk their careers, livelyhood are dishonest when they do tell the truth? Or do you think they are made an example of and ruined? I've seen the later happen all to often.

[LeftishBrit]

114. Consensus is purchased about denial of harm from global warming?

There are a few scientists who deny harm from global warming, and a slightly higher number who think it is harmful but not due to human factors; but the major scientific consensus is that global warming *is* caused by humans and is harmful.

[mzmolly]

116. No, "denial of harm" is purchased in both cases.

Those who study global warming are not paid by those who wish to profit from harming the earth, and when they are there is an obvious problem. That's my issue with the drug/vaccine approval process. Profiteers are funding the majority of studies.

[upi402]

110. Try to get into daycare or school without the vaccine.

So, accept the risks and try to mitigate the damage? Just try to get Mercury free...
Smaller viles - single dose - cost more so they add the preservative to save a nickel and kill a kid.

effemall in the land-o-the free!

[K8-EEE]

111. My question is why do people have to be such dicks about it.

Like the OP, he didn't just say, "well, I think these 5,000 parents are mistaken in their conclusions because..." it's like "oh god now we have to put up with these hysterical, emotional parents of autistics, they hate true science and they don't want any vaccinations" and blah blah blah over and over again.

As if we are trying to irritate you or pull of the swindle of the decade. It's the same hostility you see with the "global warming denial" people: something unnecesarily mocking and mean-spirited about it.

You know, if they're proven wrong so be it. I believe in my heart my daughter changed after the shot. I just can't believe how hostile people can be that I think that. They didn't see it. Nobody in my family thinks I'm crazy for thinking that but somebody who's never met any of us is like, oh bullshit. What the hell do you know about the experiences of those 5,000 families, MonkeyFunk? So quick to call bullshit on all of us....

[MonkeyFunk]

112. I didn't say anything like

what you suggested.

But yes, I do get angry at people who use anecdotes to try to dissuade parents from vaccinating their children.

Vaccines have saved countless lives and prevented unthinkable amounts of suffering. Given that there's no compelling evidence that they're the cause of autism, I find it ignorant and dangerous.