Cultural Differences

[ls317]

Question for all here I am wondering perhaps someone can explain or at least clarify it for me as a whole.My neighborhood is an upper middle class with a good diverse mixture of people.Black,white,Latinos and middle Easterners I have noticed more and more within the Latino Community that younger females( ages 13-17) are allowed to date older males guessing from appearance and demeanor the age difference without knowing the exact numbers is at least 8-15 more.For example one of my neighbors(Mexican Family)great people has a daughter is 14..and her B/f is 23. He explained to me that is part of Culture.Because older males are more established and have a more defined purpose in life.
I explained to him that in the US most places it is against the law because of the age difference.And that criminal charges could be filed against the person if the family chooses do to so.Most states have an age all ready set called the age of consent..Depending on the state it is 15,16 hell even some places its 14...He told me that within the Mexican community a female comes of age at 15.


Just my two cents

[pagam]

1. As a latina

from Panama, I can tell you that in my family it is not acceptable. However, I don't think that in Panama it is ilegal for a 16 -17 year old to marry someone older. In Panama it is usually more common for this to happen with lower income families.

[Cleita]

2. Spanish culture is patriarchal. In my day, fifty years ago, a

man couldn't think of taking a wife until he had a good job or business to support her and their children. On the other hand the younger women were preferred because they were more likely to have healthy children. Women of middle or upper class families did not work outside the home once they married. While some did pursue careers like teaching that were acceptable for women to do, usually, girls didn't further their educations beyond the Latin American equivalent of high school.

Many girls married as young as sixteen and if a daughter wasn't married by the age of twenty the family started panicking that they might have an old maid on their hands. Men on the other hand could marry at any age as long as they could show the father of the bride that he could take care of her and any family that would ensue from the union.

My father was twenty five years older than my mother. She was nineteen when they married and he was forty four. Although, in the last half of a century, women have made many gains in Latin America, it seems that old customs die hard especially when they are ones that work fairly well in the culture. My parents remained married until my father died and they were very devoted to one another.

[Zookeeper]

3. These are cultural differences that need to be clarified....

if that Mexican family doesn't mind a 23 year old dating their 14 year old, whatever. But, if that 23 year old then thinks it's ok to pursue my 15 year old daughter, we have a problem. That is a cultural difference I am not willing to indulge.

Years ago when I lived in S.F., I was attacked by two non-English speaking Mexican (or Central American) men, while I was waiting for a bus, at night, in a gay-male neighborhood. For years, I thought I was attacked for "talking back" to them when they approached me (and that may have been the case). However, it's occurred to me recently, that they may have assumed I was a prostitute (a young woman alone at night at a bus stop) therefore they felt they had a right to assault me when I told them to leave me alone. Either way, I have no obligation to be forgiving of their "different cultural understanding."

I'm not anti-immigrant, but when I'm not served by a Muslim man in a restaurant because "men don't serve women," as a Feminist, I don't feel obligated to applaud that kind of "diversity." And I would prefer that these men with retro, sexist attitudes change their outlook sooner rather than later.

[Cleita]

5. I don't disagree with you. I feel that change is needed when

foreigners move here. You know the when in Rome philosophy. However, change does come slowly and misunderstandings occur. It is especially slow when it's within a community who will follow the customs that they are familiar and comfortable with. I used to get my ire up about veiled Muslim women in families moving into my community, but in getting to know them, I came to realize the women were more comfortable in being veiled. Who are we to tell them how to dress? Sometimes tolerance is needed on both sides and in order to do that, you have to get to know them as they have to get to know you. Incidentally, the daughters of those same women have doffed the veil and wear jeans and T-shirts letting hair hang free, just like their American counterparts.

[Zookeeper]

7. We have a lot of Muslim women from Somalia, in particular,

who wear veils, at least. That is the kind of cultural difference that doesn't affect me personally, and I expect will change over time. And if it doesn't...whatever.

However, when the cultural misunderstandings become a danger to me or my daughter, or threaten to push back the gains that women have made in our culture, then my tolerance ends.

If I went to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, I would make myself aware of the cultural expectations. I wouldn't force men to shake my hand or walk around by myself wearing shorts and a tank top. I'm reluctant to excuse foreign people living in this country from making the same effort. And it's insulting to them to think that they are somehow incapable of doing so.

I'm surprised that these issues are seldom explored from a Feminist perspective.

[MistressOverdone]

9. These issues are apparently

very controversial and disturbing to the feminists today...at least the ones I speak with. We all want to be tolerant. The problem is how tolerant can we be of cultures and practices we see as intolerant? I think this is the question of this century and it will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

[entanglement]

14. Indeed -

But that is exactly the way the RW frames the issue - On one side the tolerant, welcoming, enlightened 'us' who respect women's rights - on the other, the dangerous, backward, primitive and misogynistic immigrant male with an accompanying victimized woman ready to be 'rescued'. This image is cartoonish and attempts to pit the immigrant against the host community. Apart from the very broad brush, it is dishonest because these RWers couldn't care less about the rights of immigrant women in reality. Part of their agenda is merely to stoke outrage: when a case of brutal violence is reported in an immigrant family, you'll immediately hear something like "See what multiculturalism and diversity lead to?" With the background of some horrifying incident or the other, they get away with no other supporting argument.

IMHO, a great way to improve the rights of immigrant women while not falling into the divisive RW trap is to reach out to progressives in immigrant communities and make them partners in promoting women's rights. That way the immigrant community won't feel besieged or under attack. This is where I believe feminists might benefit from a more socialistic outlook. Feminists are usually loathe to talk to anyone outside their narrow white, middle class comfort zone - they have to be willing to engage working class, immigrant communities (particularly immigrant women).

/apologies to OP for the hijack :)

[MistressOverdone]

15. Actually, I was thinking

less of the day-to-day cultural differences in the man-woman dynamic than I was in the more sensational issues such as stoning for loss of virginity, adultry, etc. I am assuming these are not everyday occurences; at least I hope not.

I agree completely that the former will be more understood if we reach out to these communities, but the latter is going to have to be dealt with via the laws of the land. There are some places where some cultural groups have petitioned to rule under their own law (I'm thinking of Canada, rather than the US here) and that's where it gets interesting. On the one hand, they have religious rights, and on the other, there are the laws of the country they are in. Like I said, it is going to be very interestinng seeing how it plays out.

[rudeboy666]

10. Check your bigotry

Years ago when I lived in S.F., I was attacked by two non-English speaking Mexican (or Central American) men, while I was waiting for a bus, at night, in a gay-male neighborhood. For years, I thought I was attacked for "talking back" to them when they approached me (and that may have been the case). However, it's occurred to me recently, that they may have assumed I was a prostitute (a young woman alone at night at a bus stop) therefore they felt they had a right to assault me when I told them to leave me alone. Either way, I have no obligation to be forgiving of their "different cultural understanding."

This is one of the most ignorant (not to mention inflammatory) comments I've seen posted on this board.

Assault is wrong. Period.

To imply that non-English speaking people somehow beleive otherwise is ignorant and bigoted.

[Zookeeper]

11. I didn't say non-English speaking people believe otherwise....

Sorry my experience doesn't fit your politically-correct world view. If you weren't there, didn't see the setting, the men, or the situation, you are in no position to judge. That makes you ignorant and biased.

[entanglement]

12. So you believe those two men attacked you because of "different cultural understanding"?

That is quite absurd, not to mention bigoted. Sometimes men are just criminal / predatory and such men are to be found in all races / cultures / linguistic groups.

[Zookeeper]

13. LIke I said to a previous poster...

You weren't there.

Granted, these could have been two men intent on assaulting a woman, who chose a busy gay neighborhood, with lots of foot and vehicle traffic, at an obvious bus stop, who didn't jump me until I refused their advances. However, that would be a really stupid way to find someone to assault if you actually had any understanding of where you were.

If it makes you feel better to believe that was the case, then go for it.

I really don't need additional education on the predatory and criminal practices of men in general.

[Bridget Burke]

4. Do you have any statistics?

About percentages of age differentials in "dating" couples of different ethnic groups? Different economic groups?

We have your statement about one family.

[Alcibiades]

6. It's a function of economic development

Whose culture? I bet these practices are not common among the wealthy, but among the poor. In the south, years ago, this sort of thing was common. When you are poor and female, your best stab at economic security may be an older, more established male. Similarly, poor young men may not yet have the money to start a family. Poor country folk do what they do for reasons that may seem cultural, but are actually economic, whether they are from south carolina or south america.

[Zookeeper]

8. This is where language becomes an issue....

"poor country folk" changed that tradition, when movies and television created access to the rest of the country and its customs.

For non-English speakers, living in communities that allow them to fully function using only their native language, they remain isolated from the norms and customs of their new country.

This was an issue in St. Paul, with the large Hmong immigrant community didn't understand that courtship in America doesn't involve kidnapping your intended. Fortunately, there has been a good effort at outreach that is integrating these refugees into the larger culture.