we are worse than freepers.

[Gato Moteado]

responding to a post in GD politics, i realized that we truly are worse than the freeperfilth.

hear me out, please.....

freepers are human garbage, the lowest of the low, that's for sure.

george bush and his administration and the felonious five on SCOTUS are scum. but they're just puppets for the corporate heads...you know, the guys that run companies like enron, halliburton, exxon, pfizer, and so on.

the corporate guys have all the money and they want more. they want more power. they're greedy. they own an entire political party, the republican party, and probably some of the democratic party as well. they own practically all the media. they don't care about ideology, they only care about money. they are such a tiny percentage of the US population but they mold the republican party to appeal to a strange mix of disgusting americans....namely the rednecks, white trash, uneducated rural people, rich white suburbanites and religious fundamentalists. they connect people that normally wouldn't even like each other by building a totally disconnected ideology. the corporate guys know that these are people that get emotional about ridiculous issues and go out to vote in droves. the members of the republican party know this too and they know how to manipulate these lemming voters.

but the corporate guys are merely taking advantage of the loopholes in the legal system. it's legal for them to buy congress people, senators, presidential candidates, etc., so they do it. that shouldn't be a surprise. they've created and modified the system that suits their need....the need to satisfy their greed for money and power.

and the republican party is doing exactly what you'd expect...answering to their bosses. no big surprise there.

and the freeptards and other republican voters, with their malleable, feeble minds, are doing exactly what the corporate bosses and republican politicos and consultants know they will do; respond to emotions like hate and fear. so they are fed hate and fear through the mouths of the republican politicians via the "public" airwaves which in reality are owned by the same corporate bosses. and these airwaves controlled by the corporate bosses are manipulated to make their political message look good and appealing while any opposition is made to look insane, unamerican, or worse.

so yes, the freeptards, the bottom of the foodchain in the right wing movement (the useful idiots if you will), are merely doing what one would expect. they react without much thinking, but rather with emotion, to the things they are fed in the media. don't expect much else from them. they're not capable of anything more.

but it is us, the progressive, intelligent, concerned part of the population that is worse than the three types of people described above; the corporate bosses, republican politicians and the rightwing useful idiots. yes we are worse than they are. they are doing what one would expect a greedy businessman, ambitious right wing politician, uneducated redneck, idiotic religious fundy, or scared white suburban upper middle class dipshit to do. they either create fear or respond to it. isn't that obvious? but us....we see what's going on and yet we do nothing. and ranting on DU, or sending money to a democratic candidate or complaining about the government isn't really doing anything. we're doing nothing. shouldn't we expect more from ourselves?

forty years ago it was illegal for whites and blacks to marry in 17 states. forty short years ago in our country. that's barbaric. and as i mentioned in my reply to a post in GD politics, the fact is that if our current SCOTUS were in charge back then, the ban on interacial marriages would have been upheld and people would still be in jail. we have corporate owned douchebags running our government and our courts right now and to appeal to the rednecks and fundies and to keep them scared and voting republican, they continue to hold up gay marriage, abortion, prayer in schools, and other ridiculous issues as a carrot on a stick in front of these mental midgets. and so, many good americans have to suffer because of it. yes, in 2007 they're still doing it. and as a result of their successful, undemocratic power grabs over the last seven years, people are getting killed and maimed for oil and military industrial profits right now.

and these corporate guys own the media that makes this barbaric ideology look sane. they own the media that will report with a straight face that george bush (or any other repuke puppet) is a christian despite the fact that he supports illegal wars, human rights violations, the death penalty and a host of other things totally incongruent with christianity. they own the media that distracts, with news stories about paris hilton, from what's really going on in the world and in the workings of the US government.

these corporate guys are evil, greedy pigs....but we are worse. we let them take over our public airwaves to spread their propoganda and to keep the populus from being truly informed. we know they are evil and we know it is wrong but we still let them do it. we do nothing in response.

the post i referred to above in GD politics was about the interracial virginia couple that got married and were arrested because of it. forty years ago, the lovings knew it was illegal to be married to each other in their state. they knew it was illegal, but they also surely knew that the law was not only wrong, it was obscene. so they married anyway. and they were thrown in jail by those barbarians that upheld the insane law. but they stood up to the filth of their time. they had guts. and they won in the end.

we have no guts. we do nothing. our public airwaves have been stolen by evil, greedy pigs. we do nothing. our government has been bought and paid for by the evil, greedy pigs. we do nothing. oh, sure, we sit back and lob insults at dipshits like bush, who is nothing more than a puppet for a group of rich guys. but that's all we do. we complain that the media is corporate owned and slanted, and even though that is true we look like a bunch of crybabies. and they know that that is all we are. they know we are pushovers. they know they can manipulate the uneducated and the ignorant and they know they won't get any trouble from the rest of us.

the lovings had real guts. they were true americans. rosa parks...another true american. anyone who stood up to power even if it meant breaking a ridiculous, insane, barbaric law but a law nonetheless, are the real patriots. so here we are in 2007 and we sit by while the corporate owned puppets in our government use our public offices and the legal system to keep their voting base scared and voting. people are still getting tossed in jail for using marijuana, engaging in prostitution, or, in some cases, excercising their right to free speech. yet, the corporate guys are destroying the planet, killing people for oil and war profits, and doing as they please and walking scot free. nobody is standing up to them. nobody has the guts to do it.

we go back to our TV and turn it on and watch the crap that is broadcast and we complain that it's slanted. the corporate guys own it and we see what is happening. yet we do nothing about it. nobody has gotten the guts to stand up to them. thay can break as many laws as they want, but we are afraid to do what is necessary to rid these pigs from our airwaves. we're not strong enough to take our public airwaves back and the evil pigs know this.

we are weak. if you don't believe me, think back about the 2000 stolen election. the pigs stole it from us and we didn't do enough to prevent it. look what has happened ever since. the pigs continue to exploit our weakness as they steal and steal and we continue to capitulate. forty years from now there won't be any news stories about the brave americans that stood up against all odds and took back their airwaves and their government and their sanity from the republican pigs and their corporate masters.

they know we will keep our mouths shut and go back to our genetically modified food, our overpriced pharmaceuticals, our bigscreen TV, our gas guzzling SUV, and that we'll continue to breathe polluted air and drink polluted water and deal with our crappy healthcare system and watch our rights be trampled, our environment destroyed and our good men and women and hundreds of thousands of civilians in iraq get butchered. we aren't so much as a speedbump to them.

we know better....that's why we are worse than freepers.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Okay. Your message is to get active. What will you be doing? We'll all be there.

[Gato Moteado]

7. i don't have the answers.

but i see the problem.

[bagrman]

87. Let's start with a tea party. It worked years ago to excite the rabble. This time

This time we burn the electronic voting machines, so that the vote has to revert to paper ballots and people actually counting them. Part of the reason we are in this mess, besides our complacency, is the vote was stolen by the cockroaches running the elections.

[Gato Moteado]

91. yes. yes. yes. you're onto something.

i like the way you think.

[Madspirit]

2. Okey Dokey Pokey

I don't have time to read your entire post because I have chores to do but basically you're saying....if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem....

Right? ...because I tend to agree.

I hope that's what you're saying because I am k&ring you.
Lee

[LSK]

3. uh I was canvassing all day on Nov 7, 2006

And the day before and the day before....

[Gato Moteado]

5. what you're doing is great.....

...and i hope we get real change through your work and the work of everyone else behind our beliefs.

but, working within the system hasn't seemed to work real well. hell, it was under clinton that the media got more consolidated.

it seems that nothing short of radical change will turn things around. getting a few more dems in the congress or senate won't make this happen. even if we win the presidency in 2008 and held a majority in the congress and senate, our public airwaves will still be corporate owned. the drug war will still churn on. the military industrial complex, the oil industry, the pharmaceutical companies and so on will still be in charge. you'll still be forced to eat genetically modified foods, buy only gasoline powered automobiles, pay too much for pharmaceuticals, have crappy healthcare, and only get to watch corporate news.

[LSK]

8. are you reading Al Gores book???

Much of what you speak about is in there...

Also, Clinton only had a Dem House for 2 years. Lets not forget that.

[MADem]

4. What's this "we" shit? Speak for yourself and leave me out of your club of losers.

I get my ass out and GOTV, I assist in local campaigns too, I don't eat genetically modified food, watch BBC World News and use the net to get my news, don't own an SUV and never would, and don't sit by quietly and "do nothing."

Really, if you want to motivate people with exhortations to action, calling them all the equivalent of freeper-assholes isn't the way to do it.

I'm not part of your royal "we" and never have been.

[Gato Moteado]

12. i've worked on GOTV and local campaigns as well......

i'm not calling anyone a loser.

i've been active through the years with the democratic party since i was 15 or 16 years old. when i lived in the states i shopped at coops and similar markets when i could. i never owned an SUV either. i rarely, if ever, watched TV.

i know a lot of people here work their asses off. i'm not trying to trivialize your hard work. i appreciate everything you and everyone else here does. i just don't see the potential payoff any more. i honestly think nothing less than radical change can turn our course now. getting a few more democrats elected here and there probably won't make much of a difference. the system is rigged and i think working within the system won't get things changed.

i think there are things we all can do to change our country and the world, i just don't think we have the intestinal fortitude. maybe things haven't gotten bad enough yet. but i don't see anyone in our ranks with the guts to stand up to tanks with only rocks and bottles in our hands.

[MADem]

14. Well, if you don't see the payoff, that's what you should say--not aver that

we're all freeper scum-of-the-earth, because that IS what you said--that was your opening assertion.

I've seen revolution close up and personal...and believe me, this nation isn't even anywhere near close to the "people in the street" scenarios you envision. Even during Vietnam, when you could actually GET people to go out in the streets regularly, were we anywhere near revolt.

And if it ever did come to that image you're carrying around in your mind, and like I said, we are a long ways off, it wouldn't be a "rocks and bottles" effort--the NRA has made sure of that.

[Gato Moteado]

22. i don't really think we are anything like freeper scum

but i was trying to make a point that they are mainly ignorant slobs and that we are educated and intelligent. they react to fear and hate. we are able to understand nuances, yet we can't overcome the insanity that we're living around. we see the evil and destruction coming from the corporate controlled government and yet we don't really want to stand up to it.

the one thing we are unable to do, in my opinion, is work with the current system to restore sanity to the way our country is run. the change needs to be radical and it needs to be swift and we are either incapable or unwilling to make it happen.

[rulvy]

77. Fight for the cause, not for your ego

Watching BBC News is hardly a revolutionary act. Even for information, the BBC is nearly as useless as US News. And no one ever was freed from prison by someone choosing not to eat genetically modified foods. You say that during the Vietnam era we were not near revolt. Have you heard of Kent State? Jackson State? the black panthers? The SDS? The USA was so afraid of revolt that RFK authorized Hoover to wiretap MLK for fear he was a communist. There are a number of people who died in what you say wasn't a revolution. The blood on the ground had a lot to do with the end of the Vietnam War which killed another 50,000 Americans.

Violent revolt is not going to work. But holding hands and eating a whole foods granola bar at an anti-Iraq War rally won't work either. Your ego is not in issue ... what is in issue are fundamental human rights. Instead of saying DUers are as bad as freepers, I would argue that they are useless as freepers. Simply posting the latest watchwords of the "gang" gets nothing done.

The original post was not a personal attack on you. It was a realistic assessment and a hyperbole of our ineptitude revealing that whatever it is we are doing it is not enough. The march to tyranny has not been abated. The fascists have been able to defeat us twice with the most inept candidate for president there has ever been. That makes us look pretty weak. The leading Democratic Candidates, regardless of their popularity on DU (one is popular, the other is not) hire the same consultants that the Republicans use. They often have the same campaign contributors. We are not on the road to change. It's more of the same ahead.

I'm sure you are doing a lot, undoubtedly more than your fair share, but still, we have been trounced time and time again. Even the Democrats retaking Congress was achieved only because we put up the most conservative "republocrats" we could find.

The original post is from your brother in arms, forget your bruised ego and fight harder!

[Gato Moteado]

81. great post.....except one part

i wouldn't say that we are as useless as freepers. we are far more intelligent and compassionate and human than they are. but, i don't think we're any more effective than they are in bringing about change. that's not meant as a slap. the reason we're not effective in bringing about the type of change we need is because we're up against a system that is rigged in favor of the bad guys. an entire overhaul of the system is needed if we're to be effective in operating within the system.

how can we change the system? i don't know. i think it can be done. i just think it would be a monumental task requiring the kind of commitment that most are unwilling to give.

[MADem]

84. Uh, I didn't ask for your "approval" of my actions. All I did was point out that the OP was, to be

blunt, utter horseshit.

And I certainly don't need lectures from you. I never said watching BBC was anything other than what it is--you're the one trying to tell me that I think it's a "revolutionary act" when I don't think that at all.

And what's with the modern history lesson? Have I heard of Kent State? The SDS?

You have no fucking idea how old I am, clearly. I was IN those streets back in the day. But not all of us were violent, in fact, most of us were peaceful. If you really knew your subject matter, you'd recall that a lot of the Kent State kids were putting FLOWERS in the gun barrels of the National Guard troops before some idiot gave an order to fire on them. And you have no idea how many of those SDS hangers-on are now fat, corporate lawyers making large six figure salaries. I actually know a few of the bastards.

And the tipping point of the Vietnam War, putting revisionist scenarios aside, wasn't "Blood on the ground," it was the SILENT MAJORITY of plain working class Americans, fathers in their neat suits and short hair, mothers in their tidy Sunday dresses, hats and gloves, who turned on Nixon and demanded an end to the war. THAT was the tipping point. The kids in the street got the party started; the middle Americans who were sick of sending their kids off to war, and who resisted for the longest time admitting failure because of their WW2 mentality, were the ones who played a vital role in ending that mess. It would not have ended without them.

The original post certainly wasn't a personal attack on me. It was, however, a poorly articulated, badly thought out indictment of everyone who posts here, and for that reason, it was as useless as the "I will take my ball and go home" declarations that we see here on occasion.

I'm of the "Lead, Follow, or Get the Fuck Out of The Way" school. You see, there are three choices there--leading, following, or stepping aside. There's no category that says "Insult your fellows for not doing enough, in your unconsidered opinion."

A person who calls out everyone for not doing anything, or enough, yet fails to provide a plan of action or demonstrate willingness to follow a leader in a decisive course of action is nothing more than a spouter of warm, wet, fetid air. Words without actions are bad enough, INSULTING words without actions don't have to be tolerated by me or anyone else here. That's not an "ego" issue, that is simply basic self-respect as well as respect for my fellow posters here.

And if you don't care for that view, well, you go on and have a nice day.

[Gato Moteado]

94. relax for just a minute.......

....yes, maybe my post was poorly articulated. but, no, it wasn't an indictment of everyone who posts here. it's been misinterpreted (probably because it was quickly slapped together and poorly articulated). surely it was meant to catch your attention and read it. i did not literally mean we are worse than freepers. i strongly believe that all of our GOTV, canvassing, campaigning, etc will not effect real change. that's not an indictment of Duers, it's an indictment of the corrupt system we're trying to work within. and right now, i don't think we have the guts to stand up and take back the public air waves and kick the corporations out of our government. sorry, i just think as a nation we're too complacent for that. too much is at risk if we rock the boat too much, so we back off and watch our freedoms evaporate and our treasury get looted and our kids get sent off to kill and die for corporate profits. we watch the media spread propoganda and we watch our neighbors get brainwashed.

you make excellent points about nixon and viet nam. nixon was a pig, but i don't think he was a puppet like the current adminstration is. nixon finally collapsed under all the public pressure. furthermore, we had a real media back then that broke stories like watergate and provoked real investigation. we don't have that any more.

we're not up against a slimy, sweaty, vulnerable president like we were with nixon. forget bush and cheney, the puppets for a minute. we're up against a system where the corporations have gotten so entrenched and rooted in that we can't beat them with public opinion. and they own the media. in a sense, they own the public opinion. the mothers in their tidy sunday dresses are powerless. the working and middle class parents of soldiers in this war are irrelevant. hell, they're enemy combatants and terrorist sympathizers if the media says they are. look what they did to cindy sheehan.

i know you work hard at what you do. everyone here does. i'm just trying to get you to look at things from a slightly different perspective.

anyway, i appreciate your responses even if you are pissed off at me. at least it means you've read what i said. and if you disagree, that's ok....just know that we're on the same side in this fight.

[MADem]

102. Well, it did catch my attention--the "we are worse than freepers" bit

And having lived through times that felt just as bad, if not worse, than this, I don't think all the gloom and doom are worth a warm bucket of spit. I also think a look at history bears me out.

Nixon was a fucking monster when it came to the Constitution. Saturday Night Massacre, anyone? Impeach the Cox Sacker? Robert Bork, delivering the fatal blow?? And the source of all that crap, Watergate? That was some pretty hardline abrogation of the Constitution right there.

Yeah, Nixon certainly had foreign policy down (at least the China and Russkie bits) and he could put a sentence together without sounding mentally impaired, unlike Little Caligula in office right now, but make no mistake--this present crew no doubt took plenty of lessons from the Reign of Dick. It's all of a piece, you see.

A guy named RUMSFELD worked real hard to get a guy named Dick Nixon elected president. A grateful Dick gave Rummy a government job, first at OEO, later at the White House. Rummy hired a clown named CHENEY to be his assistant, and he also followed him to the WH. When Nixon got the axe, they stayed on. They learned at the throne of the most nefarious bastard in power what Executive power was, what it wasn't, and how to manipulate it. And both of those bastards had the advantage of also understanding the legislative branch, too, having done time on the Hill in the House. They also got a great handle on what an incredible gravy train the fucking Pentagon is, having both done the SECDEF gig (Rummy twice, Cheney once).

Pull the string. The bum running the show now, Dick Cheney, learned everything he needed to learn about the use and misuse of Executive power during the last several decades, starting with the Nixon era. He learned what Congress can and can't do while he was sitting in the House, voting against making MLK Day a national holiday. He learned about the vast sums of money and the corporate incest inherent in management of the Pentagon while doing the SECDEF gig for Dubya's daddy.

But here's the real deal. This isn't any new nefariousness going on, it's just the same shit, different day.

As for Congress, they've ALWAYS been greedy bums--in fact, there's less of those envelopes with thousands of dollars crossing desks nowadays than there was before. Now, the corruption is subtle--in the old days it was BRAZEN. And not always illegal, either.

About the only thing that has changed is the press. Instead of allowing the GOVERNMENT to tell them what they could and couldn't say (Psssst--don't tell anyone that FDR is in a wheelchair!!! Don't talk about all the naked women at the White House pool, or JFK's Addison's Disease!!! Don't talk about that Congressman's girlfriend, or that Senator's --or FBI Director's--boyfriend!!!!!) now they take their cues from their CORPORATE masters. But still, as always, they serve somebody. And when they do serve us, they tend to serve us LAST, not first. And it's always been that way...even if people nowadays don't see it.

If you don't learn from history, you tend to repeat it. We haven't reached fifty eight thousand names on a black wall yet, but if all we do is sit around wringing our hands and crying about how hard it is to get anything done, or calling people out and insulting them because they aren't "doing enough," well, we'll be there before you know it. And maybe we'll get a fellah of, say, Syrian or Algerian heritage to design us a nice looking memorial to hold all those names....and then we can listen to the ignorant bullshit about how it should be designed by a 'Murican...!

We've been DOWN this road already. In my lifetime, too. Dave Obey remembers how tough it was...it seems not enough others do, unfortunately.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

117. Good bye, indeed.

Way to toss those personal insults.

And you clearly didn't read the thread at ALL, never mind "any farther."

Here's some reading for you--try reading the DU RULES. You've violated them with your childishly didactic post, there, pal.

[devilgrrl]

6. ...

:popcorn:

[Gold Metal Flake]

11. Standing by...

[DKRC]

47. O I'm sittin with you!

Got butter?

:popcorn:

[Gato Moteado]

48. that's what we're all doing.....that's the problem

we'll be sitting on the couch eating popcorn as they take our last few rights away.

and when they take away our popcorn, we still probably won't fight back.

[Gato Moteado]

55. standing by?

that's the problem i'm talking about.

jump in the ring and mix it up a bit. i want to hear your 2 cents worth.

[Gato Moteado]

51. don't just sit there eating popcorn......

....while the republic crumbles!

get in on the discussion.

tell me if i offended you and why. or tell me if you agree with me. tell me if you think things will change or not with our situation. offer up your opinion on the media and how you think we can take back our public airwaves from the corporate pirates. tell me if you agree or disagree with me that we need radical change and we need it now. tell me i'm wrong and that people really are working on restoring sanity and have the guts to do whatever it takes...that would make me the happiest.

but stop wasting your time sitting back and eating popcorn. let's talk about it, figure out what we can all do and then go get some sushi.

[Rex]

9. 'shouldn't we expect more from ourselves?'

priceless!

[MistressOverdone]

10. I understand your frustration

and I think your main point is solid, but I have to say I can't agree with calling half the country "disgusting americans....namely the rednecks, white trash, uneducated rural people, rich white suburbanites and religious fundamentalists."

White trash is a racial slur. Rednecks is close behind, and without rednecks none of us would eat, have houses built, goods transported, etc. And rural areas do not have a corner on the uneducated market. In short, I think you have come up with a real compendium of broad-brushed, elitist, stereotyping.

I'd personally state it a bit differently (but hey, it's your OP) and say that those of us who have more progressive ideals are taking the easy way out and the path of least resistance. In that, you are right, in my opinion. But sorry, just couldn't let the other stuff slide. I come from a long line of rednecks on my mother's side!

[Gato Moteado]

15. sorry that the redneck thing offended you....

offending you was definitely not my intent....at least not with the use of the word redneck.

but at least you say you understand my frustration. i mean, we're dealing with a good sized chunk of the population that is not sane and they are manipulated enough to swing elections. the people that are choosing your leaders believe a woman has no right to choose, that saddam was responsible for 911 and the iraq war is just, that the bible should be taken literally (except the parts that effect them personally), that our constitution should be amended to take rights away from people (mainly gays and people of other religions), that people who care about the environment are stupid tree huggers, that stemcell research is murder even though those embryos are destroyed when their shelf life is up, etc etc etc etc.

these people we're dealing with are not sane. and the corporate execs exploit this. and we have to suffer because of it.

the system is rigged. i respect everyone here that works their asses off canvassing and so forth...but the system needs to be overhauled and radical change needs to occur. i just don't see that happening unless we get our act together and rise up and become an opposition to the evil pigs.

[MistressOverdone]

21. You were writing with passion

and didn't have your PC cap on.

I was raised as a conservative. My family were moderate Republicans, a far cry from being right wingers. I am gifted (or doomed) to see both sides of an issue, sometimes at the same time! And here is my take on it. The good folks you mention, the salt-of-the-earth people, and that includes the religious right (I'm talking here more about the old time religion folks than the McChurches) are being exploited and manipulated in many ways, and mostly for the bottom line. On that, we agree.

I'm a down home sort of person. I think if we all could get back to the earth a bit, understand where our food comes from, think about our purchases, simplify, simplify, simplify, we would all be happier. We had a thread not long ago where we bonked each other on the head for being nostalgic for the '50's (those of us who were old enough to remember) because obviously those days weren't so great for minorities. But there was a simplicity of that time and I think it was because the meglocorporations didn't really exist. AT&T was about it.

Actually, I talk with a lot of conservatives, and many of them agree that the corporations have gone too far and things are spiraling out of control. Power corrupts, and we all are victims of that corruption.

[jahyarain]

39. a different view

i come from a long line of rednecks on my mother's side and my father's side. which is why i have absolutely nothing to do with any of them. and just because one is a farmer, carpenter, or truck driver does NOT make them a redneck. hell, listening to country doesn't even make one a redneck (real country: Johnny, Hank, Willie. not the new "country": have you forgotten my boot in your ass. that's not country). hence, i tend to agree with the posters original assertion. white trash, redneck, inbred, cousin fucking crackers tend to vote pro-religious, anti-choice, anti-gay conservative (which makes no sense in and of itself if you see how these fucks treat their own beautiful countryside. they're not scared to dump their lawn furniture, tires, etc. ANYWHERE.). keeping with the slightly skewed philosophy of Chris Rock, i'm not talking about WHITE PEOPLE (hell, i'm as white as they come), i'm talking about REDNECKS. and as my mother is from west TN (and i ain't talkin' 'bout Memphis) and my father is from Alabama (the mountains...of Alabama), i consider myself a redneck aficionado. and i consider rednecks to be proof that God is fallible.

in review: white and country DOES NOT equal redneck. ignorant, confederate flag on the side of your trailer, homophobic, racist, no family tree having inbreeder, DOES. Peace and chicken grease

[Gato Moteado]

45. rock on jahyarain!

yes, you explained that which i assumed needed no explanation....my assumption was wrong since i certainly offended some people here.

when i use the term redneck, i mean the so-called "redneck" state of mind that you so beautifully described. i do not mean the hard working country person whose neck is burned by the sun from working in the fields all day.

you are one country person i would definitely like to have a few beers with. in fact, let's put on a good buzz and go tip over tom delay's SUV.

[DKRC]

52. Welcome to DU!

You'll find more Southerners on here than you probably expected.

:hi:

[MistressOverdone]

105. Really?

Well, then I have been laboring under a definition that is too broad. In my experience, a redneck is akin to a blue-collar worker, but outside. As in your neck gets red in the sun. I never thought of it as just a specific.. well... insult, I guess. Do you think this is just your understanding, or a broader concept?

But the term "white" trash has always bothered me. There is an innuendo there that all the other colors are all trash, but only these specific folks called white trash are. Minor point, I guess.

You know, I never listened to country music until rather recently. We have an old-time country station here and the commercials are all for local places, and funny as hell. For some reason, the music makes me happy. And I'm somebody whose preference is usually English church anthems sung by little boys!

In my long line of rednecks on my mother's side, I have a great grandfather who fathered children with his wife AND both her sisters. It gets very convoluted. Oddly enough, it is that side of the family that has the most real brainpower. This was just after the war. As in THE war, in the mid 1800's.

[tandot]

13. IBTL

This one is priceless: "...i realized that we truly are worse than the freeperfilth"

:popcorn:

[Gato Moteado]

17. it needs to be taken in context

i meant worse in that we know better yet we tolerate so much of the evil heaped upon us. we don't really fight. i truly believe that.

and i can't see why this thread would be locked. all i've done is express myself honestly. ihaven't singled anyone out. i just described a problem i see with our movement and a problem i see with our system.

you can agree or disagree, but to want to see that sort of expression suppressed doesn't seem right.

[tandot]

24. I did not alert nor have I read your whole post. You lost me with "worse than freeperfilth"

If you want to get your message across, you might want to consider not starting a thread by hurling insults.

Because, if someone who wants to sell me something and starts a sales pitch with "you f*cking scum of the earth" I am sure as hell not going to give him/her my money or my time.

[Gato Moteado]

26. i didn't call you scum of the earth....not even close

i just kind of expanded on the idea that those who do nothing are worse than those causing the problem.

and i don't even accuse people of doing nothing here, though many have taken offense as if i did.

what i tried to do is draw a parallel between people like the lovings, who broke an obscene law despite the fact that they would be punished, and people like us who are dealing with a corrupt system run by corporations wanting to steal all they can steal even if people have to be butchered in a war. we are far less likely to rock the boat enough to get us kicked in the ass. instead we try to work within the system to change it. unfortunately the system seems to be rigged and change doesn't really look possible by getting a few more seats in the house of representatives or the whitehouse.

corporations have bought the system and rigged it and we need to think outside the box...kind of like the way the lovings did. kind of like the way rosa parks did. kind of like that chinese guy that stood in front of the tank. but i think either things have not gotten bad enough for us to rebel like that. either that or we are totally incapable of fighting for radical change.

[tandot]

28. Your subject line is "we are worse than freepers" and then your first sentence

you say "responding to a post in GD politics, i realized that we truly are worse than the freeperfilth."

I must have completely misread your subject line and your first sentence. :shrug:

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

16. Interracial marriage is interracial marriage

Gay marriage is gay marriage.

[Gato Moteado]

18. exactly!

it's only the insane that would try to control consenting adults from doing what they like whether they're an interracial couple or a gay couple. yet, the texas constitution was amended to take rights away from american citizens by outlawing gay marriage. it wasn't that long ago that interracial marriage was illegal. insanity still abounds in 2007.

how do you fight a rigged system that exploits insanity?

[AngryAmish]

19. You have a very long post

[Gato Moteado]

40. well then, don't waste your time reading it

you'll probably only be mad at me if you do, even though i'm not insulting you.

there's probably something good on TV right now instead.

[AngryAmish]

74. Oh, I read it

It was the nicest thing I could say.

[Laurab]

108. LOL . n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

20. No we are not. n/t

[Balbus]

23. Can someone break this down into a couple of sentences?

That's a lot to read if it's someone insulting me.

[DKRC]

56. Hmmm, the freepers suffer from craniorectal inversion

and we don't, which makes us bad because we're ALL goin off the rails this time.

I think that's what he said.

:shrug:

[Blue-Jay]

70. Thanks for the short version.

I'm not reading all that shit either.

Seriously, if you're going to post a rant try to keep it down to 2-3 paragraphs.

[DKRC]

71. You're very welcome. nt

[Gato Moteado]

109. nobody was insulting you

nt

[A wise Man]

25. Absolutely agree with you

If you are looking for a solution, maybe I may interject with this tidbit.

Even though our conscienceness may be on the right track and our knowledge maybe true and factual and above all pure observationist. The flaws we have is that we do not trust nor depend or have the complete unity to react as we did in the 50's and 60's. Apathy is in question, exceptance has become a reality.

We look for something or someone to start the ball rolling, but we can't find the ball. Cindy Sheehan had it right and some here at "DU" attacked her,her spirit and her cause. Bush has created the biggest mess in this country, more than anyone in my time, and he hasn't been impeached.

I don't have the answers either, but this I do know, we have become so complacent that "DU" is used as an outlet of flustration to stand for,"AT LEAST I SAID SOMETHING".

[NoPasaran]

27. You've got a hell of a lot of gall trashing us

You've got a hell of a lot of gall trashing us from "beautiful Costa Rica".

[Gato Moteado]

30. if i was trashing anyone at all, i was trashing myself too

but actually i wasn't trying to trash us.

look at the great progressive leaders on the left that have been killed by angry opposition. start with jesus if you like. gandhi. JFK. RFK. MLK. the list goes on. we're dealing with barbarians. evil pigs.

the right wing is ruthless and evil. we try to oppose them within the system and fail. we're afraid to rock the boat against these evil pigs for fear of retalliation (i suppose). ann coulter was right when she said that if they kill that american taliban dude (who was actually a repuke) that liberals would be scared and keep their mouths shut.

yes we have all canvassed and campaigned and done our part. unfortunately little, if any, change has really resulted even when our candidates win. even if our candidates have their heart in the right place, they are up against a system that is corrupt and rigged in favor of the corporations. it takes something much bigger to be the impetus for the radical change we need. i don't know what that something is and i think that even if we knew, we are either unwilling or incapable of making it happen. my guess is the former, not the latter.

i wasn't trashing you. i was making some dramatic statements, for sure....but i would never trash a fellow austin DUer.

[conspirator]

29. We are not worse. Fighting the corporations is an Hercules task. Although our eyes are open

there is nothing we can do at the moment.

[Gato Moteado]

31. i disagree.

nt

[conspirator]

61. Sorry but I dont see the elite giving up their privileges without serious riot or blood.

The whole "democratic" system is rigged. If you believe in it then you are part of the problem.

[cascadiance]

41. We should ALL have a pact, if ANY of us gets to ask Dem candidates questions!

Especially if they are nationally broadcast in a debate, etc...

That we want to know what they will do to put in place public campaign financing to SUBSTANTIVELY take out corporate and other special interest money out of political campaigns and therefore the "pay to play" political system we have today!

If ALL of us would commit to doing this, they'd HAVE to answer this question at some point and not continue to hide from it, like most of them are doing now.

I just got a call from the Edwards campaign this morning asking me for money... I told them I was waiting to see if Al Gore would enter the race.

I then said that I like a LOT what Edwards has been saying but in addition to waiting for "ALL of the choices" to be available, I:

1) Don't want to send money at this point, as I feel that we are all being conditioned by the corporate money machine to try and "winnow out" the candidates earlier with earlier primaries, etc. so that their money will mean more in corrupting our candidates.

2) That if Edwards would make a point to CHAMPION public campaign financing, I might change my mind and jump in the ring and support him actively then. I said that I liked his notion that running is about showing leadership, and that I'd like to see leadership here from him and taking this risk where its needed! Without that though, I'll sit back and wait!...

[Gato Moteado]

53. great ideas and great post

campaign finance reform is a must.

i hope gore jumps in the race too....he might be the least corruptible at this point.

[conspirator]

60. And the candidate will say: yada, yada, yada .... and say a lot of things, but will not

answer your question. Have you ever seen a politician answer a question he doesnt want to?

[cascadiance]

65. But if he/she avoids it asked persistently, that will ALSO say a lot!

The point is, they've not been put under pressure to answer such questions, so noone even thinks to ask whether they support this or not, and they can always "adjust" their answer later if they aren't pressured on it now.

[Czolgosz]

32. I agree. I wish GD:P could be limited to ban the worst habitual CFS trolls into a new forum GD:CFS

(for General Discussion: Circular Firing Squad) or maybe GD: SBV (for General Discussion: Swift Boat Veterans).

It gets truly unpleasant there more and more often, and there are several habitual trolls who are quicker the smear a Democrat than any freeper and that's virtually ALL they do. Sometime I have to leave and go over to DailyKos for adult discussion about the race for the Democratic nomination with less interference from the CFS trolls.

[Gato Moteado]

34. actually, the GD:P thread i talked about wasn't a troll post....

....it was the post about the lovings and how their civil disobedience in 1967 helped an obscene law get overturned.

it made me think about how screwed up the system is today and made me wonder what, if anything, can be done to change it and if we really had the guts to do what needed to be done.

[Connie_Corleone]

33. Speak for yourself.

[Gato Moteado]

37. i am speaking for myself....

and as long as there is free speech here, i will continue to express myself.

if you took issue with anything i said, why don't you tell me exactly what it was.

obviously, i don't think we are worse than freeper filth. but we are apparently unwilling to do whatever is necessary to create radical change. campaigning and voting are great but do you see anything changing for the better?

we're in the fourth year of a war for war profits and oil. tens of thousands have been killed and maimed on both sides so halliburton can get richer.

our environment is getting worse and the planet is heating up but petroleum companies continue to make huge profits and detroit hasn't made any progress on alternative energy automobiles.

our health care system sucks if you're poor or don't have insurance.

drug companies are raping us.

you're eating genetically modified foods whether you know it or not and monsanto has a thing called the terminator seed that will help them control the world's food supply.

our water supplies are dwindling....soon drinking water will be expensive.

the right wing nut jobs want to use the constitution, a document created to give us rights, to actually take rights away from some citizens they don't like.

republican politicians lie, cheat, steal, employ murderers and torturers in their war on terror, sell drugs, use drugs, etc and they're walking around in public.....meanwhile in the real world, third time victimless drug offenders get 20 year minimum sentences.

scooter libby will either get out on appeal or be pardoned for his treason.

dick cheney commits treason on a daily basis and he's still in office.

your president is a brainless puppet answering to corporate bosses.

you're being spied on and your rights are being trampled every day.

your public airwaves are owned by big corporations and are being used to broadcast propoganda....many voters believe what they hear coming from the corporate media and it effects the way they vote.

religious extremists and white trash are pandered to for votes, so as a result we have no federal funding for stemcell research, a woman's right to choose is under attack constantly and gay people are treated like enemies.

so.....what can we do to dig ourselves out of this hole and exactly what are we doing about it?

[ellisonz]

73. so.....what can we do to dig ourselves out of this hole and exactly what are we doing about it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Assault_on_Reason

Have you been reading Rodo again? <snark>

[bedpanartist]

35. if I were starting a revolutionary band of guerillas

I would attack the Clear Channel Board of Directors meetings with a band of paramilitary warriors.

I would be setting fires to giant corporate farms in the middle of the night.

Short of action like that, I agree, all of the screaming and yelling on DU and other places ain't gonna' mean jack squat.

[jmondine]

36. At What?

Sucking up to power?
Misspelling insults?
Sticking our fingers in our ears and going, "LA LA LA LA LA LA"?

[Gato Moteado]

38. no.

nt

[jmondine]

119. I understand

I was just attempting to bring a bit of levity into an otherwise serious discussion.

Even if I don't agree with every point you've made, I can totally relate to your frustration. It does seem at times that we on the left are too content to be comfortable, to not act with enough outrage over the issues of the day.

Perhaps we all should ask ourselves in what way we have let ourselves become complacent, what we can do that is not comfortable, that is risky, to affect change.

And to the Fatherland Security snoops, no, I'm not advocating violence! Sheesh!

[TroglodyteScholar]

42. I consider this post ironic. n/t

[hfojvt]

43. I would resemble that remark

but I am pretty sure that my wilfull ignorance moves me up a level. :P

"You ask me for a contribution.
Well, you know, we're all doing what we can."

[Pharaoh]

44. K&R But!

Know that a tipping point is coming.............


that is a certainty..

[Gato Moteado]

50. we've been saying that for a long time

i've lost faith in a tipping point.

but, i hope you're right.

[salinen]

46. Thanks Gato

I've been saying the same. Fascists acting as fascists shouldn't surprise anyone. And the sheep remain sheep. We are the only defense against tyranny. In addition, we should never expect our democratic representatives to do the work that is ours alone. Recovering Democracy from the beast is our work.

[Gato Moteado]

49. thanks for the support!

maybe i didn't express myself in the best way possible...so many seemed to take offense. while i did offer up criticism of our movement or at least some of it's weaknesses, i didn't feel like i was insulting anyone. i mean, are we above criticism?

[Clark2008]

54. Seems the "we" here is more the average American and not DUers.

The "average" American gets his/her news from the corporate media and hasn't really started to understand how bad we are, yet. Oh, John and Jane Doe are starting to "get it" between high gasoline prices and the inflation associated with it, but they've not really felt any pain (unless they've had a loved one lost in the Iraqmire).

I think most of us on DU do know better and act accordingly: we GOTV, we spread the word, we boycott. As a group, I think we're far more active than the average American. Once John and Jane Doe wake up, I think you'll see some real changes.

[Gato Moteado]

57. i agree that we're more on the ball than the average person

and GOTV, etc is great. but my point is that the system itself seems to be rigged in favor of the bad guys. so even if a few more of the good guys get in, no change ever really happens.

additionally, even though we don't watch or believe garbage like fox news or rush limbaugh.....the fact is that there's a huge corporate slant to all the mainstream media and it effects the way the population thinks and votes. that's an abuse of our public airwaves. canvassing and GOTV don't help us get back the public airwaves. nor does a democratic controlled whitehouse guarantee it....clinton expanded media consolidation when he was in office.

[Wednesdays]

58. So, what's your solution to bringing down the corporate MSM?

I mean, what can be done? Does anyone have an answer?

[Gato Moteado]

59. i don't know the solution but i do know it will take a concerted effort....

....by a lot of citizens.

i would think among the progressives we have plenty of tech wizards. why is it that nobody has continually broadcast over the network frequencies both on TV and radio with their own stuff to expose the lies?

[slay]

62. How much can we really do until more of America wakes up?

The elite in power already keep us working 40 hour/week jobs with just enough money to get by. Most people barely have any free time these days. Get up, take the kids to school, go to work, come home, feed the kids, help them with homework, put them to bed, pay bills, then you go to bed. Repeat forever. :(

[Gato Moteado]

63. the people you describe......

....would seem to be the people most interested in radical change.

[Tsiyu]

64. Go stand on the corner and preach it Brother

You don't really know what each and every DUer is doing, do you?

"I spy, with my great Big Ole Eye"

Go preach it to your neighbors and see how that goes first. Quite a few DUers do quite a lot.

Your post is just a tired (as in tried over and over and over here until it is so worn out, few can stop laughing long enough to fight with it) attempt to motivate YOURSELF.

[Raksha]

66. I read most of your OP, which was all I could stomach

and definitely more than it--OR YOU!--deserve. HOW DARE YOU call the DU population "worse than freeperscum"? You have NO idea who is doing what, and it's just inexcusable for you to blame US essentially for a change we have desperately been TRYING to bring about but haven't succeeded in accomplishing yet. What you are doing is BLAMING THE VICTIMS on a grand scale, and that is absolutely inexcusable.

[Gato Moteado]

67. it was meant to be a criticism of the left's movement, not an insult to DU

sorry you read it that way.

the right is ruthless. we're stuck trying to beat them in a system they have rigged.

[sendero]

68. You might be going a little overboard...

... in your assessment.

However, as a country, all of us collectively, have gotten the government we deserve.

As a country, we have collectively begun to realize that the Republicans in general and the Bush administration in particular are really not good for America.

Whether we, collectively as a country, have realized this enough to vote for a better government in 2008 remains to be seen. But if we don't things will get worse, because the Republicans in general and the remnants of the Bush administration in particular simply will not do what is good for Americans because they are only in it for themselves.

So at some point in the future, the country, collectively will get sick and tired of these liars and morons enough to kick them out. The only question really is - will the country be salvagable at that point?

I don't know, and personally I'm not sure what to do. I talk to folks when I get a chance. I saved my brother from Bushie hell. I'm not a good proseletyizer in person because I feel passionately about how bad things are and so often, in spite of my best efforts, I speak too stridently.

The point of this rambling post is that I believe that each of us comes to our wisdom in our own time and our own way. Yes, we can talk to friends and neighbors and maybe open an eye here and there, but really, people decide based on a lot of things and many of those things we have no control over.

So, if you please, I'm not really worse than a freeptard, I'm nothing like them. I get your point, but only because I see the intent of your post.

[European Socialist]

69. I blame our leaders. Even the Progressives that I like are miserable...

failures at organizing an effective opposition, even with public opinion on their side. The problem is that they are upper income people--and even if their heart is in the right place--they can survive quite well with a "winner take all" society.

[ellisonz]

72. Capitalization is a good thing.

[Gato Moteado]

75. HOW IS THIS?

NT

[ellisonz]

120. It makes posts easy to read.

Plus any system of socialism inherently assumes some forms of capitalization.

[donco6]

76. Yeah. Sure. I'm worse.

Actually, the only thing we're worse at than freepers is shrugging off false guilt.

[Gato Moteado]

78. well, i think maybe you're unfairly misinterpreting what i'm saying....

...and ignoring the point of my post. that's OK, seems to be common in this thread.

when i said we are worse than freepers, i didn't mean that we are more evil than those dirtbags. i meant that we really aren't willing to put ourselves on the line for what we believe. and i'll stand by those words.

look at the anti-choice movement. they'll lay down in front of abortion clinics so cars have to run over them to pass. they'll assemble in large numbers and create a lot of civil disobedience and get arrested and beat up. and those are the nice ones....some of them do far worse. and they're idiots with a perverted ideology.

we're on the side of good. and we're dealing with a system that is so corrupt, that no amount of GOTV and canvassing will help.

we need to yank the public airwaves from the corporate pirates. GOTV won't do that.

there's so much more that needs to be fixed. start making a list and you'll see how long it gets. no amount of GOTV is going to put a dent in that.

we need radical change and we need it quick. the corporate owned gov't and media celebrates an illegal war (where hundreds of thousands are killed and maimed) for halliburton profits. millions are imprisoned for victimless acts involving controlled substances. corporate profits in all sectors are put above human life and safety. our air and water is at risk constantly. our good standing in the global community has been totally dissolved. the media and gov't seem to be inviting global warming. it is insanity. how do you fight against insanity? how is GOTV effective with obviously rigged elections?

one example of our complacency.....look what's happening to our environment. they want to log and drill for oil and cut down trees for more cattle. what do we do about it? nothing except complain after they do it. why aren't we showing up in thousands making human chains around their machinery? the anti-choice whackjobs have more guts than we do.

i appreciate all the work DUers and other progressives do for our cause. i'm not trying to trivialize it. DUers are the hardest working bunch of activists around. no doubt about it. but, take a look at the system we're working within. look at what we're up against. we're dealing with greedy pigs.....eco-terrorists, war profiteers, thieves, and felons. how do you beat them in their own corrupt cesspool of a system?

[donco6]

88. The problem is, you know nothing.

Basically, you're saying we aren't doing anything about what's going on. And you know nothing of what any of us have done. And none of it has mattered. We're tired, discouraged, disappointed in what we thought might be a step toward change . . . and then we get this so-called "pep talk", browbeating us for not doing enough.

You know what? F.U.

[Gato Moteado]

93. i wasn't browbeating you or anyone else for not doing enough

i appreciate everything you and everyone else has done. i know many have worked hard. but you, yourself, said it in your response above:

"And you know nothing of what any of us have done. And none of it has mattered. We're tired, discouraged, disappointed in what we thought might be a step toward change"

i wasn't criticizing you for not doing enough. i was criticizing the system for being rigged and pointing out that our energy appears to be wasted trying to work within the corrupt system. you seemed to recognize that much.

yes, my subject line was harsh because it said something like "we're worse than freeper". but it made you read the post and it made you react. and that's good. it made a lot of people read the post. it's gotten almost 100 replies so far....hell my crappy posts usually sink like a stone before they get a handful of responses. and it's gotten over 20 recs so far. anyway, i know we're not worse than freepers. my point was that we're about as ineffective as they are in causing change. actually, we might be less effective than they are if you look at the last seven years. part of it is not our fault...we're trying to work within a rigged system. part of it, though, is our complacency....we aren't willing to risk that much to take back what is ours. maybe things haven't gotten bad enough. maybe they never will. but until we're willing to stand up like the guy in china that stood in front of the tank, big corporations will continue to manipulate the freeper types, rig elections, and steal whatever they can at yours and my expense and the expense of people all over the world.

no need to tell me "F.U". i'm on the same side as you.

i say "F.U." to the big corporations that have taken control of our system of government. i say "F.U." to the military industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, monsanto, big pharm, big oil, and everyone else exploiting people and the environment for wealth and power.

to you i say "peace".

[entanglement]

79. I feel that way when I read the immigration threads

n/t

[Gato Moteado]

80. how so?

i haven't read enough of the immigration threads to know what you mean.

[entanglement]

82. Well, you have people advocating rounding up 12 million immigrants

and deporting them. I'd expect that from freepers, but aren't DUers progressives who should know better? In fact, I've begun to realize that my views are well to the left of most DU members.

/minor edit

[donco6]

89. I'm not even sure it's "right" v. "left" . . .

it's rational versus irrational. Deporting 12 million people just flatly isn't possible.

[entanglement]

92. But there is a HUGE difference

between those who think it shouldn't be done because it's disgusting / immoral, and those who think it shouldn't be attempted because it's not feasible.

[donco6]

97. I happen to think both. n/t

[Gato Moteado]

90. my radical, angry left views used to be applauded here

now at times i feel like an outcast here. my intolerance of the intolerance of the freeper types is not accepted here as it once was. i'm emotional and angry and because of that i admit i am a crappy spokesperson for the left. but even those who are able to deliver a more measured response to the right wing trash used to appreciate my angry side.

not any more.

now i often have threads locked or deleted because they are too angry. countless Duers pile on top of me when i express myself angrily.

i could not believe the responses i got when i recently claimed, without being happy about the misfortune to the victim, that the sickness and possible death of the repuke senator from wyoming would allow his state's dem governor to choose his replacement and nullify lieberman and his nonesense. people attacked me for being heartless, when my main concern was getting a solid majority in the senate to END THIS WAR. they thought i was gloating about this repuke douchebag's misfortune. i was not. i was pointing out how something good could turn out from it. people more concerned with dominating me and appearing high and mighty attacked me for what i was saying, as if i wished death upon this guy. they came off as having more sympathy for a rubber stamping repuke senator than for all the US soldiers and innocent iraqi civilians that have been killed and maimed in the war that this dirtbag supported. i was very disappointed to say the least. anyway, it's a moot point since it looks like the dem governor of wyoming has to choose a repuke replacement for the dead guy.

[MistressOverdone]

106. Gato, I've been re-reading this thread

and your OP, and now that the "redneck" issue is at least put aside, I have to reiterate that I share your frustration. Because it just seems that nothing is getting accomplished that is positive. Maybe it has always been this way. Maybe it seems this way because we who post are kind of political junkies and spend too much time listening and thinking and writing, and even when we do get out there and do things, it just doesn't change.

So I'm going to say something kind of out of character, because I'm usually pretty optimistic. But I just don't see it continuing. Corporate, banking America has snowballed into capitalism from Hell. For example, my husband and I got hit with so many bank charges we are seriously looking for a place to put our money where nobody can automatically deduct whatever the hell they want out of it. Maybe the mattress or something. Heck, what can you get in interest, anyway? We are so corporate and capitalistic we meet the socialists coming around the other direction. I just don't think there is the will to keep it up. If I had to predict where we will be in 50 years, I see a simpler world. Much simpler. Because I think the waters are going to flood the NYSE and eventually the meglo corporations are going to die out as their headquarters go under and the folks who work there move inland, and then they will figure out that Ma and Pa and cottage industry was the way to go all along. WalMarts will become skating rinks or go condo or something. But sadly, it is going to take a BIG EVENT to get there, whether that event is climatic or from war, or whatever. But I just don't see a world where all the restaurants are called Taco Bells. I just don't see it. It is not in our nature. We yearn for something more.

As I said before, you wrote with passion. Thank you for that.

[Gato Moteado]

107. i think a lot of us here share the same frustration.....

....even many of the people mad at me for expressing myself.

we're all struggling. things haven't gotten bad enough for us to do much more than complain. i don't know what it will take. my guess is that the powers that be have figured out just how far they can go without triggering an uprising. and they own all the information coming out of OUR airwaves so they're able to keep a majority of the population misinformed.

keep on keepin' on and hopefully we'll all get through it in one piece. if we can get the ridiculous war ended, that would be a good start.

thanks for the post.

[LeftHander]

83. Spot on..Gato....here is a plan to change:

1. Stop watching TV. There is so little "good" in television that it is better to just stop letting in your life.
2. To change the world change your world. Live lighter. Help others. Bring ideas for change and the future to the attention of your local community leaders, become one of those leaders.
3. Live local, buy local. Keep as much of the money you earn in your community. Food, goods and services.
4. Be kind. Even to the freepers. Be friendly and helpful. Volunteer.
5. Take the side of love and peace.
6. Spread the plan.

[Locrian]

95. good plan

I would also add for eveyone to stop being such a whining bunch of pussies! Jesus Christ - Gato is right. Someone posts a point without his PC hat on an gets jumped. We have to learn to USE this passion and fire instead of throwing wet blankets on it ALL THE FICKEN TIME.

The system is broken. The rightwing christofacists are using this to fill their ranks with the poor and forgotten (outsourcing, loss of jobs etc). What the hell are we doing? Bitching that we do SOOOOO much? Get over it, stop being so elitst and figure out who/what is the real enemy.

[Gato Moteado]

101. rock on!

i'm glad there are still people here not afraid to get angry! when we're all good and pissed off enough, maybe something will finally change.

[Maat]

103. I'm doing those things, AND ..

7. I'm driving a Prius.
8. I'm buying my husband a Prius.
9. I'm getting an estimate for solar panels and upgraded insulation.
10. We're working out of our house (real estate investment, computer businesses).

I'm doing #4, because I realized it was essential to acting out my motto of peace, but I have trouble with it sometimes.

[Gato Moteado]

104. i have trouble with number 4 also, as you can probably tell.....

sounds awesome about the solar panel system! once i get the cash and start building my dream cabin, i'll go with either hydroelectric (we have lots of running water on our property) or solar or a combination of the two. i would love to be off the grid.

[Maat]

110. That would be so neat.

I have a large home, I confess. They are all pretty big out here in what USED TO BE the country in SoCal. But we are going to try to make some strutural changes that will save energy. It will be costly, for we will be essentially dividing up the home (so that we are only going to have to intensely cool or heat one side.

Our home is like a huge townhome on a small lot (although it is a separate home, but you get the idea). We have a pool in our backyard, but it is already heated with solar panels.

By the way, mine is the only pool the kids want to use because it is ALWAYS adequately heated - the other parents can't afford to heat theirs!

Man, that solar equipment has been great for five years!

We are having pretty moderate weather this year out here. I'm not using much energy at all. We are in a desert - 1-1/2 hours north of San Diego - inland.

[Gato Moteado]

115. i've got the land....just no house yet

but hydroelectric, solar electric, composting toilet, biodigestor, solar dryer for clothes, etc are all part of the plan.

[Maat]

118. That sounds super (n/t)!

[bagrman]

85. People in this country value their material goods more than their freedom.

[Gato Moteado]

86. bingo!

nt

[InvisibleTouch]

96. It's actually a terrible thing...

...to be aware, to know, to look around and see, to have an absolute certainty of the coming disaster, and feel that one is completely unable to do anything about it. Maybe it's not so much apathy as simply hopelessness - that's how we've been trained, that's what's been pounded into our heads: "One person can't make a difference." It's an insidious lie, of course, but that's what the powers-that-be want us to believe, to keep us docile. And just like fear is used against the ignorant, fear is used against us as well - we're given to believe that if one person stands up and speaks out, they'll be shot down, figuratively or literally. Still, people do it. We're not obligated to buy into the "conventional wisdom." I think we each do what we can, some of us quietly in our own lives, others by speaking out and rallying and inspiring the rest. I don't think that any small thing we do (from recycling to planting a tree to spreading the word, etc.) is useless or wasted. It may not seem like it's "enough," but it's undoubtedly better than nothing. You're right in that we could all seek out ways to do more, though, if we just believed it would matter.

Not sure I really had a point in all that; just my thoughts in response to yours.

[Gato Moteado]

99. i'm with you 100%

thanks for the post.

[RagingInMiami]

98. You're goddamn right

I'll take pleasure in recommending this thread.

[Gato Moteado]

100. you're raging in miami and i'm raging elsewhere in latin america.....

....but we're both raging and for good reason!

rock on.

[ShortnFiery]

111. Oh stop with the self-righteous hype. We are all fallible human beings. Deal with it! n/t

[leftofthedial]

112. we are worse than pol pot

and hitler rolled into one

[Gato Moteado]

113. oh, how i wish i could change the subject line of the OP

well....at least it caught your attention.

:)

[leftofthedial]

114. . . . wearing Stalin's mothers' combat boots

no worries

I'm just in a smartass mood

[Gato Moteado]

121. more evidence here on du.....

a story about the lumber industry wanting to start logging again in the pacific northwest in spotted owl habitat. the bush administration has put forth a proposal to let the lumber industry log in 22% of the habitat. the initial response was just a bunch of name calling aimed at the gomer in the whitehouse who does as he's told. not a single person attacked the lumber industry, who surely have a stronghold in all branches of our gov't.

furthermore, after reading the story i realized that it appeared nobody else had read it. according to the story, even though the habitat has been protected since 1992 the owl number have continued to decline. it seems the barred owl has moved in and is now outcompeting the spotted owl driving the population down. no discussion of this at all. just a bunch of name calling aimed at bush. sure, bush is a douchebag, but is there any surprise his administration would side with the lumber industry? the people in the habitat areas are out of work and instead of finding new ways to make a living they lobby the gov't to overturn environmental protection and they vote repuke. now they're getting their payback. none of this is surprising.

what is surprising to me, however, is that not a single responder aimed their anger at the logging industry who will be doing the actual cutting of the trees. folks, all the GOTV, campaigning, and sending money to the dem candidate of your choice isn't going to stop this problem right now. nothing short of physically denying the loggers access to our public lands is going to stop it.

here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2879579

[rulvy]

123. I agree

Sometimes it is even more important to win a personal battle with a compatriot than to further the cause. The problem is the same one that pervades our society. The cult of personality trumps the truth and the cause. We need to ferret out truth by using our minds to their full potential. Insults and slogans, while funny and entertaining, don't help us get to truth. Certainly calling a poster's idea "horseshit" and calling another poster a member of "a club of losers" is not helpful. Objective inquiry does help. Then we take that truth and do what we can to serve out fundamental ideals. Those ideals being resolving difficulties through alternatives to violence, protecting the liberties defined in the the bill of rights, ensuring equal opportunity for all, eschewing the death penalty, taking care of the weakest members of our society, allowing the open and free exchange of ideas, eschewing censorship, etc. Too often the cause is forgotten and the personality comes to the forefront. That certainly is the MO of the freepers, it is probably a natural human behavior. I want to be aware of that tendency so I can avoid slipping into that rut.

[rulvy]

122. I heard your alarm

Thanks for the wake up call. I think we need to look and see that we haven't been winning and need to increase out efforts.

[Gato Moteado]

124. so many of us work so hard.....the effort is definitely there....

i just think we need to focus that energy a bit differently.

the poster above that you had the conflict with said "this nation isn't even anywhere near close to the people in the street scenarios you envision". i don't know how he or she could have known what i was envisioning because i didn't even know what i was envisioning. all i know is that working within a rigged system is getting us nowhere. i didn't start this thread to insult people or trivialize their work. i started this thread to see if there is another way to focus our energy by working around the system...i wanted to see if anybody had any good ideas. i'm trying to get people to help me think outside the box. yeah, i'm sick of the egos here pretending i was attacking them so they could respond by trying to dominate me and attack me. but, rather than fight with them i just have to realize we're all on the same side and hopefully i can get them to at least see what i'm trying to say.

maybe to inspire us we should watch this more often:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CdKgtIenuWI

and this one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1Bi0z3N7tXc

and this one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iEMXaTktUfA