It takes 450 pounds of corn to make 25-gallons of ethanol

[NNN0LHI]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0706/10/cnnitm.01.html

<snip>ROMANS: Thank you so much. America has fallen in love with ethanol, an energy source from corn; it is used as widely believed to be a win- win-win situation. That is it's good for farmer, it is good for the environment, and it's a good quick fix to our oil problem.

But now we're starting to see some of the unintended consequences. Consider this. It takes 450 pounds of corn to fill up a 25-gallon gas tank in an SUV. That same amount of corn provides enough calories to feed one person for a year. Ethanol's popularity is now pushing up food prices. Ben Senauer is going to tell us more about that. He is the professor of Applied Economics at the University of Minnesota and co-director of the Food Industry Center there. Welcome to the program.

BENJAMIN SENAUER, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Well, thank you very much. It's my pleasure to be here.

ROMANS: First, what are some of the unintended consequences of this love affair with corn, with ethanol, as an alternative to oil?

SENAUER: Well, we're just beginning to realize some of the implications of having linked food prices to oil prices. Right now a bushel of corn sells for $3.70. If oil went to $80 a barrel, ethanol producers could pay $5 a bushel for corn.

ROMANS: And that will mean higher prices for the food we eat?

SENAUER: Yes, it is, because corn is at the very center of the entire U.S. Food and Agriculture system. It's our largest crop; it's our largest agricultural export. We are the largest exporter of corn in the world. It is the key feed ingredient for cattle, pigs, poultry, and dairy cows.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. How many pounds of petroleum does it take to make 25 gal. of gas?

Keep in mind one gallon is roughly six lbs.

[MazeRat7]

10. WTF ? Just wanted to be first and kinda had a brain fart ??? - LOL

"Pounds of Petroleum" you're not series111. ;) True one liquid US gallon of gasoline does weigh in around 6 lbs... but that is the final product not the resources than were consumed to manufacture it. Not to mention that nobody I know describes a liquid by weight. Its generally volume - but I digress.

I think the OP was talking about the quantity of raw materials (corn in this case... which should also have been expressed by volume) and how that resource would have been consumed before the "ethanol craze".

The general premise of the articles position is food-stock (corn) is better utilized as nutrition rather than fuel. On this matter, as an engineer, I would agree.

MZr7

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Why?

Why is food stock, particularly surplus food stock, better utilized as nutrition rather than fuel.

""Pounds of Petroleum" you're not series111. ;) "

You'd prefer I said crude? I think "450 lbs of corn to make 25 gallons of fuel" sounds a lot more dramatic than "450 lbs of corn to make 150 lbs of fuel." A ton of gold vs. a ton of feathers kind of thing.

So, how many lbs of crude oil does it take?

[MazeRat7]

27. Because there is no market definition of "surplus" since the ethanol-craze...

Corn is traded on the futures markets. There is no solid concept of "excess", thus a producer of corn is open to get the highest possible price per bushel (yes another volume measurement :) ) for whatever they can provide. By grade.

Corn for ethanol is currently driving up all the contract prices since the material consumers (ethanol producers) are willing to pay premium for the raw corn on the futures markets. Much higher than historic prices that food producers are getting. As current contracts expire, new ones will be negotiated at an increased price/bushel. Food producers will be forced to buy the corn at higher prices and pass that price on to their consumers. The problem is there is much more bottom-line margin in producing fuel than food stock. You didn't really think the ethanol craze was about the environment did you ? Silly rabbit... ethanol is about $$$.

This will drive up the cost of corn for livestock feed, which will increase the price of beef, which will pressure all corn by-products (except ethanol production) to increase prices.

So no, todays Ethanol-Craze is a time limited, point solution at best, and a serious failure as a long-term energy strategy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Hmm.

Isn't the reason all the high fructose corn syrup in soda because they haven't got anything better to do with the corn? Yeah, the price of soda would go up, but if we stop relying on cheap Saudi petroleum, we're all going to have to pay for it.

[MazeRat7]

40. No, it's in soda because its cheap....(for now)....

If the price of corn increases significantly, there are going to be a lot more items than soda going up. As I mentioned, animal feed and other derivatives.

Again, the only concept of "excess" in the commodities markets (which is where corn is traded) are those bushels that could not be placed under contract to be sold for a given price.
Point in case... you would not sell something if it cost you more to produce than what the market was willing to pay. In other words, generally speaking people don't like to take a loss for their product. But, If you happen to be a corn producer, those loss-sales can be subsidized by the government to help you recover the difference between current market price and the price it cost you to produce the corn.

However, as the price/bushel increases (due to the high demand for ethanol) previously subsidized corn will be on the "market" because now the price/bushel represents a profit to the producer (farmer / corporation) over the cost of production.

And all the standard stuff that uses corn or corn based extracts will go up along with the cost of the raw material.

So forget the idea of "excess" corn.. there is no such thing. The only excess is that corn which is more valuable than the market will pay... (hence subsidies). As/If the ethanol craze moves.. so will the price of corn which will impact all "consumer goods" that are of some corn derivative.

I really hope that helps... I'm kind of getting frustrated trying to explain there is no such thing as "excess" corn.

MZr7

[librechik]

2. or one Big Mac.

how to choose...

[Fridays Child]

3. How many pounds of corn does it take to make methane?

Maybe we should feed it to the cows, first, and then get the fuel from it. It would kill two birds with one stone.

[Chemical Bill]

36. Actually, you can feed it to the cows afterwards. n/t

[Fridays Child]

39. Interesting.

[BuyingThyme]

4. But what other products do they get out of that 450 lbs of corn?

Corncob pipes?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

5. Thank you. I wonder if BushCO didn't hold out that carrot to enthuse rural folks. n/t

[Parche]

6. Too Corny

It would be better to use the corn part for food, and the by products, the shucked part for the
methane, I dont know if they have found a way to do that yet though. :hi:

[blues90]

7. Hardly seems worth the effort -

what about the water it takes to grow these crops , we are short on water , there has to be a better way than to make a larger mess for a short term fix .

[Jackpine Radical]

8. The corn mash left after fermentation can still be fed to cattle.

I don't know how that all works out energy-wise, although of course the fermentation process converts corn sugar to alcohol & then energy is required to distill (concentrate) the alcohol.

[Pavulon]

9. Rather the cash go to farmers, ADM, whomever..

than nuts like saudis..

[smtpgirl]

22. Yep, there are farm subsudies already for corn, soybeans and

other foodstuffs used for alternative energy.

www.biodiesel.org

search for farm subsidies

[sakabatou]

11. Whatever happened to switchgrass?

[whistle]

18. Also sugar cane stacks are another potential source but we still

...need more energy to distill the ethanol into sufficient concentrations for combustion than the energy that the combustion of ethanol will produce for driving an automobile

[Auggie]

33. Miscanthus -- a tropical grass -- is causing quite a stir

Modern wildcatters see gushers of green -- Researchers have high hopes that a tropical grass known as a 'superweed' will one day replace crude oil
SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE (6-11-07):

The grass was waist-high as John Caveny held out a business card with his title printed in green: "Biomass Energy Wildcatter." He compared the potential energy productivity of the Corn Belt to that of East Texas more than 100 years ago.

"I tell people this is the next Spindletop," he said, referring to the famed gusher near Beaumont that started the age of petroleum in 1901.

That era is fading and a new energy age is beginning. Out is crude and in is cellulose, a renewable carbon source to replace fossil fuels in power plants and transportation. According to Caveny's analysis, the new energy gold isn't black, it's green, and the new energy wildcatters aren't sitting on gushers, they're standing in them.

Caveny demonstrated as he waded among rows of miscanthus, a tropical "superweed" so tough and prolific that it looks to him like a good bet to make mountains of cellulose -- and bundles of cash for farmers.

Link: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/06/11/MNGNUQD1TQ1.DTL

[EFerrari]

12. Yep. Another boondoggle. n/t

[durrrty libby]

13. One would think the geniuses could come up with something better

[whistle]

14. How many BTUs of heat are required to make one BTU from ethanol?

...that's where the energy conversion efficiency ought to be really measured. It appears that not only is essential food/protein and carbohydrate sources lost but the energy conversion is also in the negative. Ethanol sounds like a real scam at tax payers expense

[smtpgirl]

23. E85 burns at a faster rate that pure petroleum

that in itself should have a caveat.

Nope, the oh so intelligent people in Congress have jumped on the alternative fuel bandwagon.

It gets votes, but if they were sincere about this, they would not put all their eggs in the proverbial ethanol basket.

[ThomWV]

25. What does that have to do with anything?

OK, it burns faster, that means you use less igniton advance. What difference does it make?

[smtpgirl]

41. So what gets wasted are the nutrients in the soil buckethead

so, if there isn't mass fertilization of the soil, the soil is deemed infertile. That is what corn does to the soil if the crops aren't rotated in planting from year to year.

When mass fertilization takes place, there is run-off from that fertilizer that goes into the water table and tributaries of water that WE USE FOR DRINKING!!

Are you a Chesapeake Bay visitor? Crabs & Oysters are suffering from farm run-off (Mass fertilization & livestock waste).

So, ThomWV, you live up to your name. Thom, what are your solutions? Do you have any?
Maybe some study in ecosystems and what it does for a circle of life?


There are many more alternatives to corn for use in alternative fuel.

www.biodiesel.org


Corn is not the answer, but that is the answer Congress will take and run with it. It is apparent that they only do photo-ops and no research!!

[smtpgirl]

42. If more fuel is burned, then more fuel is used, thus

how economical is it?

[shadowknows69]

15. But do you know

"What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?"
or the question to 42?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

17. I have heard that sugar cane is far better than corn and has been incredibly successful in Brazil.

Can't sugar cane be grown in the south?

[kineneb]

19. should feed the corn to animals and collect their poop for methane!

Nature is quite good at producing methane with very little input (well, you do have to eat the beans...). But seriously, why don't the energy folks look at that which is already produced in abundance, and which is quite burnable.

[anotherCTliberal]

28. Vermont has an initiative for what you are suggesting

Cow dung is being converted to biofuel and has been using this as a way to heat ones home, with a small price increase. One of my colleagues has rental properties in VT and mentioned this to me. No such option here in CT.

I agree. Why not use something we have plenty of! Wind, solar, poop power. :-)

[kineneb]

37. and no more exploding outhouse jokes

just think about that! Ahem, methane may be a greenhouse gas, but it is produced naturally, and with so little effort...

[smtpgirl]

20. Again, the US wants to destroy more land for corn. Corn

uses up more nutrients in the soil that any other foodstuff.

The govt. just doesn't get it. Now we grow more corn to supply the habit. Sugar cane & sugar beets are more economical to grow, plus the nutrients in the soil don't deplete as fast.

Why can't we recycle for fuel?

Used vegetable oils
cellulose - is naturally occuring in plants
steam

any other suggestions?

[Selatius]

21. Growing switchgrass for cellulosic alcohol is better.

Hell, you can use farm waste from wheat straw and corn stalks instead of the corn itself as inputs to make cellulose alcohol.

[ThomWV]

24. Which, at about 7 pounds per gallon would weight about 175 pounds - the rest is hog feed

That is what they do with the mash you know, they make hog feed out of it for the most part.

[juno jones]

26. It's the fact that all other use of corn is about to grind to a halt to service those SUV's

Disturbing news from work. Milk and other agricultural products that depend on corn as a feed source are going to at least DOUBLE in a fairly short period of time. Food costs are going to go up all around. There is more money to be made on Exxon than on Fritos, so to speak. Less of everything, except MAYBE (but I doubt it) gas. Enough to feed a person for a year to fill a gas tank once on a 7 MPG car?

HEMP DAMMIT! We can still feed ourselves with biodiesel; farm equptment, truck and train transport and public transit. We need bio sources now, especially ones not controlled by Monsanto and fucking ADM (spit!).

But we need to evolve out of greed and venality.

[Disturbed]

30. Diversify,

Use Hemp, as well.

[PeaceNikki]

31. And 100 gallons of fresh water are used to make that same 25 gallons of ethanol

[Matsubara]

32. Of course. Ethanol is no energy solution at all.

Thanks for posting.

[Strelnikov_]

34. The problem with corn ethanol is the non-renewable energy used

for processing under the current paradigm.

In any viable future, we will still need a source of energy dense liquid fuel, primarily for mobile equipment. Biodiesel for the big stuff, and ethanol for the little stuff, that cannot be practically electrified.

However, marketing either of these as an energy solution for continuance of the easy-motoring SUV life is fantasy.

Producing corn ethanol as an Energy Carrier is perfectly viable. Most of the food value remains following processing (more ‘human’ food from wet vs. dry milling, less ‘net’ energy) so the ‘fuel or food’ argument is not an issue. The only question, for me, is where does the energy input for production of the ethanol come from (most of which is consumed in the fuel plant) since corn ethanol is not an energy source. Using natural gas or coal makes no sense from an energy standpoint since liquid fuel can be made from these sources directly with a viable EROEI (5+).

Why not renewables, such as wind generated electric, as the process energy source? We would then be converting renewable wind energy to a readily storable, energy dense form.

Basically,

1 Unit Corn + 1 Unit Renewable Energy -> 0.7 Unit Food (Corn Equivalent) + 1 Unit Energy (liquid fuel)

And as for why so much corn is grown? Storage, yield and adaptability to the major growing region in this country. Sugar cane has to be processed as soon as it is cut, sugar beets similar (unless frozen, as they used to be able to do in the Red River valley), whereas corn can be readily stored for long periods. Humans were growing lots of corn long before ADM and Cargill.

As for soy biodiesel, 80% of the food value of the soy remains after processing, so this is also not a ‘fuel or food’ issue. And the process energy required for soy biodiesel is less than that for corn ethanol. Again, run the crushers, millers and dryers off of wind generated electricity, and you are converting wind to a storable, energy dense liquid fuel with minor loss of net food production.

[LostInAnomie]

35. Anything to get us away from oil...

... and out of the Middle East.

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. That'd be a big ol ear of corn, that would