is the "Flurry" of the..'There is no difference between the Republicans and Democrats'.. a Roverian

[sam sarrha]

program to discredit the Democrats thru the back door..??

i am personally sick of it.. if you cant see the difference it doesn't seem like you belong here.. cause you are not a Democrat or a progressive.. just spewing Reich Wing Roverian bullshit

sorry i am am so emphatic about this.. but i find it offensive, and trollish.. that is the kind of shit my brother is always saying.. and he is just a lazy mindless nut job that believes the Dominion series is a history book

[liberal N proud]

1. Sounds like the typical right wing pile of manure

[ellenfl]

2. funny . . . i was just thinking about posting my dismay

at all the dem naysayers here. we cannot eat our own. that's what k-k-k-karl wants.

ellen fl

[mackattack]

4. and he is just a lazy mindless nut job that believes the Dominion series is a history book

You mean it isnt?

no seriously, I see exactly what you are saying. However, there are three voices in US politics; the Far Right, the Right, and the Moderates. A few Dems actually support progressive change, i just haven’t seen real a great deal of it. I wish this weren’t a two party system so I would have options other than Jack Johnson and John Jackson.

[sam sarrha]

19. i agree, but this is what we have and a good place to start, lot of people who want change and we

cant really roll back the damage and change till we get both houses and the president.

only then will we be able to change things... complaining we don't do what what we cant do till we achieve the ability to do is it is just stupid.. we need to have a long term view and goal.

if we let them set our view and goals we are simply allowing them to destroy us... it is suicide..

[TexasProgresive]

3. They've done this in the past-

When Clinton was president - calling the parties Republicrats and Democans. The object is disgust voters so that the Pukes have an edge. They can only win when votes are suppressed - if voters turn out enmass the pukes lose. That's why negative ads work so well for them because it turns off voters and the don't vote.

[Posteritatis]

5. Err, that line's *decades* old. (nt)

[sam sarrha]

20. doesnt matter if the Reagan NeoCons started it.. it works and it is convincing voters to no vote and

is making people mentally lazy and cynical.. it is paralyzing people by making them stupid.. sounds like their plan not ours

The Roverian types will use anything that works.. you dont think those types wont use what works, and this BullShit works.

[MissWaverly]

6. Yes, it's like blurring everything

like when you mention that Wyoming, Cheney's home state got more money from Homeland Security that New York.
Then they say all politicians do pork, blah, blah, blah...

[PBass]

7. More than discredit, I think it's intended to split the Democratic party

by encouraging disgruntled people to vote for a third party candidate, or sit things out.

Vote for whoever you want, obviously, but I hope the liberals, progressives and reformers will entrench themselves in the Democaratic party and try to change it from within.

[mackattack]

8. well said

totally agree

[upi402]

9. OP - You have to open your eyes and inform yourself

Really, you are WAY off.
I wish you were right, but you are very wrong.
At least you're not alone, if that's a comfort. Because the corporate media has bullshitted "we the people" so thoroughly FOR 20+ YEARS!!

[sam sarrha]

21. i didnt understand what you ment to say...

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. On some issues there is no difference

That's not Roverian bullshit.

[sam sarrha]

22. so what .. that isnt what i said, there are things we will change when we can, till then we have to

compete, doing otherwise is suicide.. the system isnt perfect.. so we just go with the war and empire building and go belly up.??

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Well some of us happen to think the war and empire building are both wrong

[sam sarrha]

50. so since a few did vote for what ever reason that condemns the rest of us also against th war. Nuts.

[G_j]

40. "there are things we will change when we can, till then.. .." oh boy

talk about a line getting old


zzzzz

[Warren Stupidity]

11. I see no difference between the Democratic wing of the War Party

and the Republican wing. Now of course there is also a Democratic-progressive wing of the Democratic Party, unfortunately it is the minority faction in our party. The ruling party is the Corporate War Party and it currently controls the leadership, directly or indirectly, of both de facto institutionalized political parties.

You can stick your head in the sand, you can call reality anything you want, you can proclaim that those of us who are simply speaking the truth are 'spewing reich wing roverian bullshit', but that does not alter the facts as they are one bit. Deal with it. We are not going away. This mess we are in is not going to go away either, not until we start coming to grips with the actual nature of the problem.

[sam sarrha]

23. well Stupid___ i never said people would give up stupidity, many find comfort in stupidity and

i really dont have a clue what you were trying to say.. and i doubt

you did either.. did i mention many revel In and are proud of their stupidity, regardless of who it hurts ,but sometimes that is the purpose of their stupidity reality.. sorry but confusion is contagious and i got a little confused reading your post.

[Warren Stupidity]

29. "i got a little confused reading your post"

Then I agree I failed to communicate. From where you are, in your smug arrogance, you need a whole lot of confusion to settle in before any light is going to go on inside your head.

[leftchick]

35. LOL!

your previous post laid out the reality of the situation quite clearly. If some can not understand a well written post like that it is because......

[Zodiak]

37. Warren's post seemed pretty clear to me n/t

[ValiantBlue]

41. Well said

We must confront these issues or else they will go unresolved. We can not be scared to critique our own party. The goal we should strive for is to improve our party. There are many Dems that are trying to drag the party (if they have not already) to the center. The disadvantage of a two party system is that if one of the parties becomes a lot like the other party the opposition will not be there. It will be very, very difficult to undo the damage that is caused in a two party system becuase you do not have a third or fourth party to turn to. You have to pick the lesser of the two evils at that point.

[nannah]

45. your post is clear and reflects reality

the nature of our thoroughly bribed legislature makes it no other way. the highest bidder buys the politician. until we have publicly funded elections, we will continue to live with corporate sponsored law breakers oops, i meant law makers.

voting for the lesser of two evils does diminish people's enthusiasm for elections. that said, i continue to vote and to try to help people see that staying away from the process, no matter how tawdry and sleazy this election process has become, is only playing into the hands of the elite corporatists who have only contempt for the principles of our constitution.

[Demeter]

12. I Think The Greens and Libertarians Both Use It To Justify Themselves

I truly doubt Rove has enough time for that.

[sam sarrha]

24. Roverian is a Process of minipulation... ____ian is the methodology not necessarily the person.

[OHdem10]

13. I must have missed--the Flurry.

There are some of us -- just as liberal as anyone else and
certainly not trolls who in moments of exasperation, will
screech , tell me please how do you distinguish the two parties.

On votes of importance to the daily lives of Americans, how
a person votes is important. When you see on TV and check
it out on C-Span. ... A member is constantly voting with the GOP,
You dig further--often it is to please Big Business, a liberal
like me wonders. I realize there are times Legislators must
compromise. I accept this. When it becomes standard practice
I have difficulty accepting that.

On Trade Policy , some Democrats will support the Bush Trade
Policy when there are economists warning us we are on track
to become a banana republic within 10 to 15 years.

Perhaps I should be careful to say some Democrats.

Yes, there are a few Republicans who vote with Democrats.
Like playing musical chairs. Patterns concern me.

I am not a part of any great conspiracy.

[sam sarrha]

25. the Democrats didnt vote for the ReThug Iraq bill, we put limits on ours, it was the only thing we

do not having the 60% to over ride the Veto.. we didnt vote on Their unlimited bill,

quit acting like a 2 year old cause you didnt get your way, if you dont want to become a progressive why are you here.. honest question.. why are you here.. cause you want this to be like the free-republic cause there will is no difference.. is that a goal.

i amnot just talking about here.. it is pervasive on the radio and other places.. my brother spews that crap.. cause he gets it where he hangs out

[Warren Stupidity]

30. the Democrats didnt vote for the ReThug Iraq bill

Well yes they did vote to refund the war, a majority of the Democrats in the senate, and enough in the house to comfortably pass not only a blank check refunding, but in fact an escalation of the war we elected them to end. But just keep on lying to yourself that something else happened. You are delusional, but you are not alone, so you will find comfort with the others in the pom-pom set here.

[leftchick]

36. and they gave bush 20 BILLION more than he asked for!

there must be some good weed going around.

[Hekate]

14. I agree with you.I'm really irked at the Naderites who are still marketing that crap

It should be noted that it took me a couple of years after the 2000 coup to decide that Nader and followers really had played a significant part -- and after all we've endured since then, to hear some alleged Democrats still parroting that line makes me want to throw things at them.

It's asinine. Asinine and self-defeating.

They can legitimately analyze the positions, analyze the candidates and their records, criticize when necessary, point out how they could do better -- but they should spare us all this proven lie.

If they can't do better than that, they should please stfu. (I told you that particular argument makes me want to throw things.)

Hekate

[sam sarrha]

26. we have done some stupid shit, and we need to fix it, the corporate funding of elections is one, but

if we don't play that game we commit suicide till we can get positioned to end it then the playing field is more level and they cant win a fair election especially with paper ballots

[madrchsod]

15. as warren stupidity said- there is no difference between the war democrats

and the republicans. we fought the war democrats during the 60`s and we`ll do it again. just because they have a D in front of their name is`t going to stop me from criticizing or pointing out that their actions are no better than the republicans. we have seen in the last few years what happens when people do not question and demand answers from their party.

now we see what happens when people do.

[sam sarrha]

27. i agree, but they cant paint the rest of us with that brush, that is what they want us to believe,

that they can.. They Can't

[leftofthedial]

16. such black and white thinking

and such straw man bashing.

It's almost . . . "Roverian."

I am personally sick of it. If you can't see the difference between the false characterization you paint in the OP and legitimate and all-too-well-deserved criticism of "democrats" who have failed to ive up to their campaign promises or the principles of the Democratic Party, it doesn't seem like you belong here.

[spag68]

17. YES

[MadHound]

18. Yeah, that's it, it's all a Rove/Nader plot to get the 'Pugs in power

It isn't like the Democrats have in the past and continue to disappoint time and again. Not just on little things either, but big things like thousands of lives into the meatgrinder of an illegal, immoral war. It's all just a big Rove plot to plague the Democrats.

Geez, and people think 911 theorists are out there.:eyes:

[maine_raptor]

31. Ever heard of George Wallace?

That piece of work used to say that "there was not a dime's worth of difference" between the two parties. Got him a chunk of votes in the '68 election with that line.

Folks have bee saying stuff like that for YEARS and not just in this country either.

In some cases (issues) that MAY be true, but as a general observation it's intellectually dishonest and shows a mental laziness by the speaker.

[Matsubara]

34. Nowhere is it more true than in the US.

In Europe, most countries do not have an ultra-right wing party and a center-right party like we do. They have the right, the center and the left well represented. It's comments like yours that are intellectually dishonest and mentally lazy.

[maine_raptor]

55. Huh? Maybe

you should go back and read some of the speeches, etc. of Hitler during his rise to power (1920's).

The tactic of claiming "no difference" is very common way for a fledgling political entity to gain support and it's use is by no means limited to American style of governance. Oh, hell it's even used to sell toothpaste!

As for the insult, I'll let that pass.

[Zodiak]

39. I agree, that is true

The problem is NOT the whole Democratic party, but about half of them.

But that half occupies too much intraparty power...they are the mouthpieces and the ones who absolutely INSIST that we negotiate from a position of weakness or outright capitulate to the Bush agenda (corporate, war, loss of civil rights at home, helps the rich in class warfare, works for privatization, etc.).

This half of the party (DLC, blue dogs, New Dems, etc.) ensures that there is not a dimes worth of difference between the Democrats and the Republicans in effective policy, but not in composition.

My goal is to oust these turncoats and make the Democratic party fully-Democratic in both policy, effect, and composition. A divided team cannot effectively fight our opponents, and if anyone has noticed, our opponents have been waging overt political war against us for a decade.

[GreenArrow]

46. Exactly!

It's like saying there's no difference between the American League and the National League in baseball. It's not true. The American League even has the designated hitter rule and stuff like that.

[maine_raptor]

56. Ah, yes, the Designated Hitter Rule

Many a barroom brawl has broken out over that one. Although I did see one once over "Hard" vs. "Soft" Monetary Policy during the Guild Age that would have done Sam Peckinpah proud. But those were a bunch of Doctoral Candidates, so I don't think it counts.

Personally, I think any discussion of the Infield Fly Rule while consuming adult beverages should be banned by the Geneva Convention, but that's my druthers.

[Orsino]

32. There are many differences, all right.

It's unfortunate, though, that these differences seem to be of degree and not of kind. We don't dare let the Republican machine gain further power, but goddammit our Democratic leaders are doing their best to avoid inspiring us.

I'll choose the slower ride off the cliff every time, but I'm finding it tough to cheer for that.

[Matsubara]

33. It has nothing to do with Rove.

The Democratic party's failure to be a true opposition party goes back well before Rove, to at least 2000, if not the beginning of Clinton's first term

You can try to squelch the truth with this bullshit about "Rove" and "right-wing" but that's all it is - bullshit.

The Rovian line is "the dems are around the bend far-left, blocking the president's agenda" You can see it on Fox news every night. If only there was a shred of truth to it.


Sorry, but I expect a lot more than the status quo from the party of Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal.

You find it offensive? I find it offensive that DOZENS of "democrats" voted for IWR. dozens of "democrats" lambasted Cynthia McKinney for telling the truth about Bush & the war. And now the "leadership" has funded the war yet again, and has no inerest in pursuing impeacment of the most criminal administration in US history.


If ANYONE is aiding and abetting Rove, it's the "get-along, go-along" democrats who dare not make waves for fear of...I don't know, actually doing what the voters elected them to do?


Boxer, Feingold, Kucinich - you can count the truly progressive members of congress on your fingers these days. The last meaningful progressive legislation was the war on poverty in the 1960s - what is so wrong about wanting REAL progress, rather than a slightly less evil version of the GOP?

[bigtree]

38. I'm with you on that

If you can't see the difference you're not looking

[smiley_glad_hands]

42. I'll take a dem over a repug anyday these days. eom

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. What if they say, there is no difference between a right-leaning Centrist

Democrat and a Republican?

[sam sarrha]

51. how many NeoCons can dance on the head of a pin, progressive democrats dont care

[ComerPerro]

44. a lot of it is promoted by the Cindy Sheehan "all or nothing" crowd and former Greens

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Thomas Jefferson was on Rove's payroll? .

I've been a Democrat since 1965. I have no problem with bashing the Dems when they collaborate with the Republicans and see little difference between the RW of the Democratic party and the Republicans.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

I suppose Tom was on Rove's payroll when he wrote the above.

[Psyop Samurai]

49. Fantastic... well done... you said it... n/t

[Psyop Samurai]

48. While I agree to an extent...

...that care should be taken not to propagate memes that reinforce the one-sided, non-orientable, Möbius strip reality the PR liars & spin doctors have fabricated for us, I'm afraid you've fallen into another trap.

And that is believing that progressive patriots are saying the same thing as the lazy know-nothings who use such catch phrases to absolve themselves of all responsibility. That is not the case, and so I think your frustration is being misdirected.

Believe me, I would like nothing better than to click my heels three times and be back in pom-pom land.* But it ain't gonna happen. The betrayal is too great. And I'm not just talking about the Democratic Party.

Further, I know it's been pointed out before, but this Rove obsession can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Only in certain quarters does he seem to have the kind of power attributed to him here.
_____

*with thanks to Warren Stupidity :hi:

[depakid]

52. If so, the Dem leadership is playing right into it

just as they've done for the 12 years....

People forget that there was a reason why Nader had a constituency, and if things continue as they've been going, there'll be another 3rd party candidate to fill the void.

[windy252]

53. I could see some of it being a Roverian invention,

but I was starting to wonder for a while myself. It's not just the Iraq war on which they gave in with waiveable benchmarks that bothers me. It's the watering down of lobbying reform and rumors of Dems actively trying to suppress impeachment movements combined with what I sense as a possible arrogance from the Dems now that they have the Congress back. I'll still vote for the Dem nominee in 2008, but until I see convincing evidence otherwise, I'm convinced * is going to get away with everything with no more than a "strongly worded letter". Edited for grammar errors.

[farmboxer]

54. MSM says this over and over

but it is not true. There are some things I do not like about Dems, but they stand for me much more than the fascist Republicans. There is a huge difference. Corporations want us to fall for this lie.

[GeorgeGist]

57. The ending will justify their intentions.

It's too soon to judge ... but it's not looking good for Democrats or Republicans.