Viet Nam experience? Stones much better than Beatles.

[DemoTex]

It just struck me walking Nick-Nick tonight, and listening to the Rolling Stones on my I-pod: The Rolling Stones are/were so much better than the Beatles. I wonder why I think that? AFVN played a lot of Stones, but I cannot remember any Beatles from AFVN. Politics? Royalty issues?

Before Viet Nam, I loved the Beatles; after Viet Nam it was the Rolling Stones.

[DS1]

1. Stones were a bit edgier and less refined, but I'm hestitant to say better

better war music

[DemoTex]

5. Well, I was as "edgy" as a cat scratching shit on a sidewalk.

Guess it was a good fit!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Didn't go to Viet Nam, but I always liked the Stones better than the Beatles.

I have a lot of old Stones stuff on my iPod; no Beatles.

[DemoTex]

8. Me too. I never tire of the Stones.

I love the Beatles, but sometimes they wear me down.

[Breeze54]

3. The Beatles totally rocked the nation in a peaceful way.

The Stones just rocked! :P

One was for sit ins and the other for partying.

[DemoTex]

18. Good point.

Maybe that's why I never heard the Beatles on AFVN.

[benddem]

48. I really think that they

didn't play the Beatles at all when I was there. If they did I didn't hear it. I remember lots of C&W. Good Morning Vietnam was about the censorship.

[K8-EEE]

4. The Beatles never turned into an oldies band or charactatures of themselves

I give them the edge for their ever-evolving style during the life of the band, and for calling it quits before they got repetitive. Every album was totally different, and a gem.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. Yes, but Keith Richards will never die. He can't.

He's become sort of mummified -- he'll last forever.

[DemoTex]

15. Daddy's ashes + cocaine: Fountain of Youth

Sounds like a Bu$h thing to me!

[Turbineguy]

6. My Chiropractor sez...

The music of the Beatles is better for your health than the Rolling Stones music. I don't know.

[HereSince1628]

9. At the end Jesus Christ Super Star (on 8 tracks) was huge.

The first thing most guys transfered on to their recently acquired reel to reel Akai 240 decks.
What the hell were we doing buying stereo equipment from the PX in a war zone??????????????????

I think we spent money like there was no tomorrow.
:rofl:

[Breeze54]

11. Because you had to play "HAIR" really loud!!

:P

[DemoTex]

21. I bought a TEAC 4010S.

And the first thing I transferred was a Joni Mitchell album. The reason we bought that shit was we wanted something for the Green Machine to send home to our little brothers when we got zapped.

[TahitiNut]

37. I sent any extra money back home to my 'bride'.

Dumb fucking move. I never saw a cent of that ever again.

[wildhorses]

10. when i want to relax...the beatles

when i want to rock and fucking roll THE STONES!!!

they are rock and roll personified...even their name shouts it out

[tridim]

12. I love them both, but..

there's no way in hell The Stones were better than the Beatles. It's not even remotely close.

[TomClash]

13. "From the Delta to the DMZ"

Stones

[DemoTex]

25. Cris Noel (AFVN-Saigon) used to send our unit kisses.

Of course she was having an affair with our (married) flight surgeon.

[TomClash]

31. H-O-T nt

[ornotna]

49. You might be interested in this

A Date With Chris Noel.

http://ansel.his.duq.edu/afvn/chris.html

[seemslikeadream]

14. Paint it Black Rolling Stones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsCuANLMhS8



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1086116&mesg_id=1098432

[DemoTex]

32. "Paint it Black"

THE song I wanted to hear on AFVN as I started my night missions ("BLACK MISSIONS") on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. We listened to AFVN in the background for most of our 18 hour trail missions.

[retread]

75. "I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes,

I have to turn my head until my darkness goes."

[seemslikeadream]

79. War, children, its just a shot away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGAWE7l-fgU


Oh, a storm is threatning
My very life today
If I dont get some shelter
Oh yeah, Im gonna fade away

War, children, its just a shot away
Its just a shot away
War, children, its just a shot away
Its just a shot away

Ooh, see the fire is sweepin
Our very street today
Burns like a red coal carpet
Mad bull lost its way

War, children, its just a shot away
Its just a shot away
War, children, its just a shot away
Its just a shot away

Rape, murder!
Its just a shot away
Its just a shot away

Rape, murder!
Its just a shot away
Its just a shot away

Rape, murder!
Its just a shot away
Its just a shot away

The floods is threatning
My very life today
Gimme, gimme shelter
Or Im gonna fade away

War, children, its just a shot away
Its just a shot away
Its just a shot away
Its just a shot away
Its just a shot away
I tell you love, sister, its just a kiss away
Its just a kiss away
Its just a kiss away
Its just a kiss away
Its just a kiss away
Kiss away, kiss away

[monktonman]

16. The stones all the way

The Beatles were no better than the Back street boys.
Same shit different decade.
Besides Keith and Mick never let a chick get between them.
and when they did, they wrote a kick ass album about it.
The Beatles just sucked.

[Breeze54]

19. B*A*L*O*N*E*Y!!!!

The Beatles were and are still the best!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

But The Stones were good too.

[K8-EEE]

22. RIGHT ON!! Mick would have stayed in accounting school w/o the Beatles

All the bands that came along after were by definition tied for second, third, etc. after the original Brit Invaders!!

I'll give the Stones the #2 spot....

[K8-EEE]

27. I don't think the Stones were edgier....maybe in style not substance

I think the feedback beginning of "Ticket To Ride" was ripped off by a thousand different bands.. The Stones were flashier and cultivated a bad boy image and lifestyle but musically, they followed the Beatles chronologically and were a bit derivative of them at times.

[Captain Hilts]

33. The feedback began "I Feel Fine," but, yes, I think even Mick would say the Beatles are better. nt

[K8-EEE]

60. Oh DUH yeah! Hey L.A. area Stones/Beatles fans:

Come duke it at on Hollywood Blvd. at the Mods & Rockers film fest!

Opening Night Extravaganza!
West Coast Premiere Of Ultra-Rare 1964 Beatles Documentary!
Beatles vs Stones Cinematic Shoot-out Double-Feature!

WHAT'S HAPPENING! THE BEATLES IN THE USA
GIMME SHELTER

The festival opens in spectacular style with the West Coast Premiere of an ultra-rare Beatles movie! Rarely-seen anywhere since it was shot in 1964 – and never in California. It’s NOT ON DVD! – so this is a MUST for every Beatles fan! The night is also a cinematic shoot-out with the Beatles’ arch-rivals – The Rolling Stones. Beatles and Stones fans duke it out! A classic Mods & Rockers punch-up!

I'LL DEF SEE YA THERE!!

[Breeze54]

30. Absolutely! The Stones were followers! The Beatles were unique!

And that's the truth!!! :P

[Gemini Cat]

47. Actually not.

Jagger and Richards were influenced by American Bluesmen and American rock n roll.
It also helped that they met up with Brian Jones too.

[K8-EEE]

61. Scuze me but Lennon/McCartney were influenced by blues FIRST!

See "Miss Lizzy," "Rock & Roll Music," etc etc.

[Breeze54]

63. And Elvis Presley!!!

;)

[Captain Hilts]

66. And the Everly Brothers. And Carl Perkins. nt

[Zensea]

34. No better than the Back street Boys?

Give me a break.

[walldude]

41. LMAO.. The Beatles sucked??? Maybe not your cup of tea

but the Beatles influenced every band that came after them including the Rolling Stones. There are so many recording techniques that the Beatles "invented" that I couldn't even name them all. They changed the face of music and the face of the entire recording industry, to say they sucked shows a profound lack of knowledge of music.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K8-EEE]

17. Beatles on Ed Sullivan (youtube) Look how geeky the audicence looks

Within a year all those guys in the audience ditched the Mitt Romney hair for the Fab Four look -- This clip is such a riot!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yt437WvLHyo

[Zensea]

20. Oh, this is good for a flame war!

It really belongs in the lounge don't you think?
Not that I really care.

People tend to prefer the Stones because like someone has already said they were edgier.

From my perspective I think it's just a sign of having bought in to the marketing campaign.

Let's put it this way -- better how? The Stones are a king hell blues band, hard edged. But they didn't particularly expand the vernacular the way the Beatles did.

Plus it's really a bit of a myth that the Stones were more hard cases than the Beatles. The Stones came from a more privileged background. The Beatles were working class toughs. They cleaned up their act right before they got famous but they came up through a real tough scene. They weren't exactly nice guys in Hamburg for example.

There's no way I can find the quote since I read it years ago (probably a couple of decades ago) but I do remember reading Keith Richards saying basically the same thing and also in the same interview saying that he and the Stones were in complete awe of the Beatles back in 1963 & that essentially the Beatles back at the beginning completely out-raunched and kicked the Stones ass.

You probably already have, but check out stuff from the Star Club to get a sense of what he was probably talking about.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

23. Well, it's true that Mick Jagger attended the London School of Economics for awhile.

Anyhow, I'm not going to say which band is "better." I just *like* the Stones better.

[Lisa]

24. it's funny to think that Mick Jagger was a pretty good student ...

... who got into the London School of Economics!

[DemoTex]

35. First line of subject narrowed the discussion: "Viet Nam experience?"

That is the context of my O/P. Not how you feel, safe in your living room in 2007 .. but how WE felt and assimilated what few pleasures we had in the fucking jungles or above the fucking guns of Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia. AFVN was primo. Stones ruled. Sorry, you had to be there.

Mac

[TahitiNut]

36. 'xactly.

But, but, but ... everyone's got a right to their opinion!! (we hear all the time)



Well, everone's got a right to smear dog shit on their faces and howl at the moon naked, too. That doesn't mean I've gotta respect it.
:shrug:

[ben_meyers]

39. I remember hearing the Beatles in Nam

They also played "Ohio" by CSN&Y, and we used to cheer the guard. National Guard 4, Kent State 0. Hey, most of us didn't like college students.

[Zensea]

42. Don't get high and mighty with me

and try to pull rank. It's really kind of silly.
I know there are a lot of folk on this discussion board who are youngsters but you have no idea how old I am or where I was back then now do you?

Besides you were talking about how you felt after you came back also safe in the US of A.

"after Viet Nam it was the Rolling Stones."

I wasn't in Viet Nam because I was a conscientious objector, doesn't mean I didn't experience terror then or since then.
I've seen plenty of the "dark side" of existence, just hasn't happened to be in the specific place of Vietnam .... and the experience of death is really what you're talking about shaping your consciousness, isn't it?

(edit to add -- of course it's easy for me to cop an attitude right now safe in my living room in 2007 ... & if I was sitting in a room with you I'd be more polite. Don't mean to diminish/minimize your experiences :toast:)

[DemoTex]

45. "Experience of death .." No, I did not experience death.

What I did experience, over 250 times, was entering the mouth of the cat of death. I sneaked in. I sneaked out. Every time. Almost. And I wore a patch on my flight suit that said: ALONE, UN-ARMED, AND SCARED SHITLESS.

I applaud and truly envy your C/O status. I was too young and unsophisticated to realize that I, too, was a C/O. Otherwise, I would not spend much time, if I were you, dissecting DemoTex posts. This is an ephemeral forum. Verb Sap!

BTW: The "High and the Mighty" is a damn good flick.

Lighten up! Know what I mean, Vern?


Ernest P. Worrell
(the late, great Jim Varney)

[Zensea]

46. Check my edit if you missed it, I did lighten up

:)

Intense times back then can still get feelings going before one reflects a bit which I did.

& I applaud your description "entering the mouth of the cat of death." That's well said.

[DemoTex]

50. Got it dude. Thanks. We are all in this leaky boat together.

And you and I have the bailing buckets. Again, I truly respect your C/O status. The day I got off active duty (2/28/1972), I joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War .. and I remain a member to this day. I temper what you did with what I did, and that is what is important.

Without ardent war protestors, those coming back from the war zone remain dazed .. crazed. Standing a cohesive anti-war group, with which those like me can affiliate, we might have a chance.

Thanks,
Mac

[babylonsister]

26. Not a Stones fan at all; used to think because they were

overplayed, like the Beatles weren't? Don't know why but I think most songs are kinda boring now.

:hide:

[TahitiNut]

28. Stones, Motown, Grand Funk, Country Joe, S&G ... stuff that makes me time travel.

'We gotta get outta this place if it's the last thing we ever do
We gotta get outta this place girl there's a better life for me and you"

That will ALWAYS give me chills and make me tear up. It was the last song played on the jukebox at the NCO club every night -- and EVERBODY sang. It never got old. Never.

Others I remember ...
"(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" (!!) by the Stones
"Honky Tonk Women" by the Stones
"Mrs. Robinson" by S&G
"Young Girl" (!) by Gary Puckett and The Union Gap
"Sugar, Sugar" by The Archies
"Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" by Frankie Valli
"Respect" by Aretha Franklin
"Those Were the Days" by Mary Hopkins
"Run Through the Jungle" (!!)
"Universal Soldier" (of course)

... and one that haunts me ... "Leavin on a Jet Plane"


On edit: One thing's for sure, Mac. The state-siders just can't comprehend how the music sounded in Nam. (No matter how much they consider themselves 'experts' because they recall seeing it on the news.)
:eyes:
More to the point ... the Beatles painted an alternate reality - usually one to which people could aspire from a safe place. The Stones directly addressed 'reality' - with attitude. The whole tone and 'message' was different. Use of terms like 'edgier" misses the point. When you're ass-deep in the insanity, confronting the real with attitude is where it's at. The Stones also had a dose of cynicism - and that resonated. The Beatles were about optimism - not somehting one's got a lot of in or after Nam. (But the Jodies don't get it.) (IMHO, of course.)

[DemoTex]

40. "Mrs. Robinson" by S&G: Staple in my Viet Nam fiction. Based on reality.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/DemoTex/4

I've got a number of iterations of this chapter going. This is far from the best.

Mac

[TahitiNut]

56. It was enormously popular for lots of reasons, I think.

Simon & Garfunkel did Blues with both 'bemusement' and 'amusement' - they captured a certain sense of wistfulness that resonated with guys with short-timers calendars. It wasn't morose - it was comic in the classical sense and probably captured the larger generational change (cataclysm) that was the phase shift of the 60s. There was nobody more in tune with that than those sent to fight a war that was nothing like the wars of our fathers. There were two parallel hybrid music genres threading from the late 50s to the early 70s: the folk/blues and the rock/pop. Motown and S&G were at the top of the former and the Beatles and Stones were flip sides of the latter, imho. Like I said before, I don't think the Beatles resonated with our GUTS over there because their stuff didn't acknowledge the cynicism we needed to survive - and the disillusionment of many of us that made survival iffy.

I don't think it's possible to overstate how much music was the essential 'voice' of those times. It's quite remarkable, really. I don't know of any other time when music was so totally seminal to the experience of the time. History with an essential soundtrack.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

57. Do you remember "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" ?

By Eric Burdon and the Animals? My Dad did a one year tour of duty in Vietnam ('65 to '66) and when he came back, I had just bought an album that had that tune on it. He laughed when he heard "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" saying that he couldn't escape the tune. He said he got very tired of hearing it in Vietnam because the jukebox seemed to play it every few minutes.

[TahitiNut]

58. Did you read my post #28???

:eyes:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

59. Sorry - too many posts to read and not enough time at the end of the day

Anyway, it confirms what my Dad told me when he came back from Vietnam. Thanks.

[Bandit]

71. Well there was the White Album

"Happiness is a warm gun" Then there was Blood Sweat and Tears "There's a man with a gun over there, telling me I got to beware"

[TahitiNut]

73. How could I miss mentioning BS&T??

Yes ... seminal. I still assert that the tone and 'message' of the Beatles was largely incongruent with the experience of being in Viet Nam. While I recall hearing SOME Beatles in 1969, it was relevant to a different "world" and not the "world" I was in.

I must mention that I was a "folk/blues" fan, not a "rock/pop" fan. I saw those two different 'camps' of music fans. I wasn't into Elvis, for example, having a strong preference for the Kingston Trio, Joan Baezz, and the folk genre. As such, I wasn't a fan of either the Beatles or the Stones BEFORE I went to Nam. I was a folk and Motown fan. On returning, I still preferred S&G, the Moody Blues, Three DOg Night, the Fifth Dimension, and the more 'folk/blues' side of the music.

So, I speak from that perspective ... and recall that the Beatles drew their fans predominantly from the latter half of the Boomer generation (the post-1954 nativity) - the "comfortably young" who didn't face service in Viet Nam. The Stones appealed to the more cynical of us - attendees of the School of Hard Knocks.

I regaqrd the proclamations of "better/worse" to be mere posturing here ... and missing the more seminal point of Mac's post: What was it about the EXPERIENCE of Viet Nam that led to a hugely different frequency of hearing the two on a playlist? That's what I've tried to address.

[annabanana]

77. I think I know what you mean T.N.

There was always a kind of desperation chord in the Stones music that wasn't in the Beatles stuff. I remember the "Beatles vs Stones" baloney as being pushed by the stations & record companies and I rocked to them both.

As a stateside hippy chick, the Beatles resonated better with my life, but I knew there was Sorrow, (that I wasn't personally privy to) that the Stones addressed.

[AtomicKitten]

29. for raw talent, the Beatles are second to none

I have always like the Stones too, and that's okay

[AndyTiedye]

38. Beatles Were Much Better (After Owsley Turned 'em ON)

[Zensea]

43. Don't forget Dylan ...

... who got them stoned the first time.
He says he was really surprised they'd never smoked when he smoked them up in New York.

[Lint Head]

44. I saw the Stones play live from the very beginning.

The Beatles changed society. The Stones were marketed as the anti-Beatles. They did not happen simultaneously but the Stones happened not far behind the Beatles. The Beatles mop top hairstyle was adopted by the Stones. Her Majesties Request was a take off on Sargent Peppers. Some of these things I know from personal experience in the Music business in the 60's. Don't believe everything you read about that era. The filter of time has changed some truths regarding the 1960's. When the Beatles arrived no one in this country sported long hair. Crew cuts and grease backed locks were the norm. I hated to see rednecks grow their hair long. Jimi's statement about wearing your 'freak flag' high lost it's meaning then. They are both great but for different reasons.


:dem:

[Breeze54]

52. Well said! Right on!

;)

Aqua Velva anyone?? :rofl:

[AtomicKitten]

65. The summer of 1977, I saw the Stones and ELO.

Truth be told, ELO kicked the Stones' collective butt.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

53. The Rolling Stones were a bit more bluesy than the Beatles

but to me, the Beatles were better musicians and much better songwriters than the Rolling Stones. No comparison. Charlie Watts may have been a better drummer than Ringo, but Keith Richards wasn't a very good guitar player at all, at least in my opinion not as good as George Harrison. And I grew up during that period learning to play guitar in bands and trying to copy licks off every record. I ended up becoming a complete Jimi Hendrix nut. To me, the Stones wrote fairly simplex tunes that they performed with a greater R&B feeling and a harder edge. Jagger was big part of that, as well as the simple structure of their tunes. The Beatles were so much broader in the span of material they wrote and performed and their songs were much more sophisticated and imaginative than the Rolling Stones to me. To me, the Beatles continued being on the cutting edge of Rock and Roll as long as they were together. Of course I liked the Rolling Stones. But the Beatles had a far more interesting and evolving sound to me.

[Seedersandleechers]

54. partying back in the 70's and 80's,

High on fast drugs, hearing the sound of breaking glass, hysterical female laughter, and of course the Stones. Back then it didn't get any better then the Stones.

[tyedyeto]

55. According to my S/O ... a Vietnam Vet

John Lennon way before the Stones.

Myself, a 1970 high school graduate, I much prefer the Beatles, but I'm not a vet.

[Major Hogwash]

62. Hahaha, You sound like my older brother.

"Are you still listening to those guys?"

But, even he admitted the Sgt. Peppers album was great.

[Joe Fields]

64. The Beatles damned near sucked all the air out of the world, when

they arrived on the scene. And when they exhaled, the whole world changed.

The Stones were only a rock and roll band.(a great one, though)

[H2O Man]

67. Plus

as John pointed out, "...I think Mick got jealous .... he said a lot of sort of tarty things about the Beatles .... I would like to just list what we did and what the Stones did two months after, on every fucin' album and every fuckin' thing we did. And Mick does exactly the same -- he imitates us. And I would like one of you fuckin' underground people to point it out. You know Satanic Majesties is Pepper. 'We Love You,' man, it's the most fuckin' bullshit, that's 'A;; You Need Is Love'." (Lennon Remembers; pages 90-91)

Even in the 1970s, Mick copied John's music, and called it his own. There is one of the Rolling Stones' songs from '74 that was, almost note for note, taken from a recent Lennon song.

[Toots]

68. Did you ever hear the song "We got to get out of this Place"?

It wasn't the Stones but I recall hearing that song once or twice...

[TahitiNut]

70. See my post above.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1100233#1100445

:shrug:

[Snotcicles]

78. Eric Burden. nt

[FredfromSpace]

69. Beatles and Stones were BOTH great.

The Beatles were better singers and song-writers and had more musical range.

And they made better records than the Stones up until about 1968, when the Stones really hid their stride as ALBUM makers (the sequence from Beggars' Banquet to Exile on Main Street is impossible to beat).

Lennon is still my favorite of all of them as a singer and a more general "voice." He obviously loved the Stones and made an effprt to match them in their strength, which was sheer Rock N Roll POWER and TEXTURE.

In the end I treasure the work of both bands.

[Breeze54]

74. It's the other way around!!

The Stones made an effort to match The Beatles!!!

The Beatles were original with their idea's!

Not The Stones! They were followers.

[LoZoccolo]

72. If you want a band which is better than both the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, try Oasis.

They became international megastars in the 90s.

[Zodiak]

76. Paul McCartney practically invented rock bass

He is the king daddio!!

The Rolling Stones put out a few good tunes, but they did not invent entire genres of Rock n' Roll with each album. The Beatles did.

They sing better, they play better, they are more influential, and they did not have to proclaim themselves the greatest Rock n' Roll band of all time. The fans did that for the Beatles, and continue to do that to this day. There is no comparison.

#2 goes to Led Zepplin. Now THAT was much more bad-boy, hard-edged music. Not to mention that they and Steppenwolf were the first bands to be referred to as "Heavy Metal".

[Johonny]

80. I was/ am a bigger

The Who fan than either the Stones or the Beatles. I got to say the Beatles were way better at the psychedelic 60s sound than the Stones. The Stones are at there best playing straight up R & B. The Beatles also made better total albums. The Stones have a lot of hits but spread out over a lot of albums (particularly their 60s efforts). They didn't make whole albums of interesting material until the 70s.