Are torture porn movies all the rage because torture is cool now?

[Philosoraptor]

Saw. Saw II. Saw III coming soon. Hostel. Hostel II. Hostel III coming soon.

Two people check into a hotel. They discover they are to be tortured to death by strangers. How much fun can a movie be?

Do you ever wonder about the audience for these movies? Is this the same old crap we've always had in horror movies, or has it taken a strange turn lately?

Are people acclimated to torture now because our leaders have made it acceptable again?

Am I just imagining things? I've never been a fan of gross out slasher movies, preferring to be scared by suspense and ghostly apparitions and the like, I've never enjoyed seeing women tortured to death on screen. Although millions do like this sort of entertainment.

What makes people want to go watch people being tortured to death for two hours?

Violence is nothing new to story telling, it's all through the bible and Shakespeare even, but at what cinematic point do we say, 'hey, do I want my kids to eventually see and enjoy this type of thing'?

In a nation where torturing prisoners of war is now perfectly acceptable, is cinema simply providing the Americans what they want? Cheap thrills watching others being tortured, what will the movie industry eventually give us as entertainment?

[LibertyorDeath]

1. Unfotunately you are right......

torture is cool now


I link my kids up to this

then field the questions

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/flash/onearmy.swf

[Heidi]

2. I'm 44 years old. Wasn't allowed to watch that crap growing up

because my parents believed watching gratuitous violence might desensitize us to real violence in the world. As an adult, I don't watch stuff like that because there's plenty of real horror in the world that needs my attention a lot worse than the manipulative horror/torture crap that the film industry attempts to pass off as "entertainment." :thumbsdown: and :rantoff:

:hi: Philosoraptor!

[Philosoraptor]

5. Jason & Freddy killed the horror movie.

There are literally thousands of titles that focus soley on slashing people up and splattering fake blood everywhere, where's the scary part?

I'll take a nice old Universal horror film any day.

Vincent Price said the scariest movie he ever saw was "Taxi Driver".

[Heidi]

8. See, now I was allowed to watch

stuff like "Dr. Phibes" when I was a kid, but now "Halloween" or "Texas Chainsaw Massacre," etc. :shrug:

[Arkansas Granny]

23. I believe your parents were right and that's the same reason I

never allowed my children to watch that stuff growing up. I did not want them to come to view violent acts as normal. Some of my friends thought I was just nuts because the thought of them accidentally seeing a sex scene didn't bother me nearly as much as them accidentally seeing violence. The sex I could explain, the violence I could not. I believe it's a sick society that views violence as entertainment.

[Sock Puppet]

55. you and me both, sister!

amen.

[Kiouni]

3. I find those movies disgusting

When I was younger I might have been able to distance myself from the reality of the movie but that was only because I did not grasp what reality was. The empathy one feels naturally towards fellow humans should preclude anyone from taking enjoyment in this trashy entertainment. From what I understand there is a rape seen in the Hills have eyes. Great, just what people need to see. What does it say about our society when we take pleasure in someone getting their eyeball melted with a blowtorch? Maybe I'm being to critical but from my experience as a Paramedic their are some screw up people out their.

[Philosoraptor]

6. Yet Americans can't stand to see the horrors of bush's war.

Or the horror of a soldier with his face burned away, or the horror of Gitmo.

[pinniped]

4. Those are sick fuck movies and I never watch crap like that.

..

[Philosoraptor]

7. I guess the old timers felt the same way about 'Dracula'.

And I certainly feel like an old timer complaining about movies. Fact is, I love movies of all sorts, but have never watched a slasher film other than 'Silence of the Lambs', which I thought was stupid, but what do I know, it won an Oscar.

[KittyWampus]

38. Old horror films generally didn't show graphic, gratutious violence. Hitchcock never shows us

the woman getting stabbed.

Our subconscious minds are allowed to complete the picture.

These days we'd see her getting stabbed, her face in pain etc etc.

[Philosoraptor]

9. And furthermore...

Americans can go to the theater and see horrors of every kind, YET, they can't stand to see the horrors of bush's war, they would faint dead away at the torture, get sick to the stomach to see burnt, exploded mothers with children, or G.I.'s with no arms and faces melted away or flag draped coffins. I say make the torture porn movie fans look at REAL HORROR that really happens every day in Iraq and tell me it's entertaining.

Why pay 10 bucks for fake horrors, when your tax dollars are making slasher movies look like a Disney film?

[tomreedtoon]

10. No, Hollywood prepared the way for Abu Gareb.

There are a percentage of people who absolutely love and praise every gory torture film. A lot of them hang out at movie review sites like "Ain't It Cool News" and "Film Threat." They talk about how wonderful it is to see people mangled and severed. They review and critique it as if they were Cahiers du Cineman and the films were the French New Wave.

And in print there's the unapologetic Gorezone Magazine.

Every time I have tried to complain about these, I get called an old fuddy-duddy. Well, maybe I haven't suffered like our troops or our enemy combatants have, but I have PTSD from a robbery-and-near-rape some fifteen years ago. I am VERY sensitive to brutality and violence. And while I know my sensitivity, and compensate for it, I wonder what effect all this crap has had on ordinary people.

My main protest; you can't lay this at the feet of Bush and his buddies. This crap has been going on in the movies for decades before Bush or even Reagan. You'd be more correct to say that Wes Craven and Anne Rice helped prepare the way for Abu Gareb.

[ShortnFiery]

18. B.S. It's *our morality* reflected by our leadership. It has nothing to do with fantasy. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

11. you got it backwards....

the abu ghraib torturers have been using hollywood slasher films as training videos since they were kids.

[AlienGirl]

12. We are living in the ascendance of a culture of cruelty.

[Catch22Dem]

13. I disagree

A movie can be fucked up and have the opposite effect. To me, this is as ridiculous as saying video games incite violence. Let's just take away violent video games, sick movies, violent music, and all live happily ever after.

No thanks. I'm quite capable of separating actors and a script from Abu Ghraib, thanks.

[Philosoraptor]

14. I see your point.

And hope you see mine.

[ShortnFiery]

19. The floodgates opened on Torture 4 all when Gonzo dubbed the Geneva Conventions "quaint" n/t

[KittyWampus]

42. Your Subconcious mind, however, does NOT seperate acting from reality. And that's where you're wrong

You can consciously say there's a difference but your Subconscious mind acts on the Suggestions you give her most often.

And if what you say and think consciously conflicts with what you do repeatedly and with emotional force, she will ignore the mere words and act on habit.

You personally might not act on the violent images you take in, but by habitually watching that garbage you are adding to the overall Violence that exists within the Collective Unconcious.

And the Violence that exists in the Collective unconciousness WILL ground itself just as built up electrical charges evenually discharge.

You may not commit the violent act yourself but it WILL manifest somewheres in your environment. If not by you physically, then by someone else.

If you claim to want peace then be intellectually consistent and don't feed violent images to your Subconscious.

[Catch22Dem]

95. Better quit reading, watching the news, listening to music...(n/t)

[Iris]

43. A movie can also help people work out some things going on inside.

Like maybe feeling helpless about what's going on - seeing someone who is in a truly helpless situation is cathartic somehow?

But I still think the trend is disturbing. I grew up with Friday the 13th, but kind of saw those movies as more campy than anything. The torture movies just seem too intense.

[ShortnFiery]

15. From the beginning of Humankind up to this moment: Mature people with souls abhor ...

the use of torture ... ever!

Abso-f**king-lutely NOTHING is ever *cool* about torture.

People with borderline personalities who adore authority figures may "get off" on watching and even participating in torture.

The responsibility to PREVENT the use of torture is with *our leaders* both civilian and military. The leadership sets the tone.


TORTURE is not ever COOL! :grr: :thumbsdown:

[ecstatic]

16. American Horror films have taken a strange and disgusting turn

I've always been a horror movie fan, but after seeing Saw III/Hostel/etc., I thought to myself--I can't do this anymore. The genre has been taken over by writers who want to show as much torture and gore as possible. The things they show now are not scary--but just plain disgusting and sick. There is a difference. A good horror movie doesn't necessarily need to show all of that, and I personally am fed up by it.

[MotorCityMan]

24. Torture and gore have replaced suspense

I've been a fan of horror movies since the '80's. I've always considered the original Alien as the scariest movie I have seen (although it looks like a science fiction movie, it's actually a horror movie in a sci fi setting).

Seeing films like the Saw movies and Hostel actually left me feeling dirty. They are not scary; they are just gross. It's like they are trying to out-do the Friday the 13th movies and coming up with new and original ways of killing people (try watching the Friday the 13th movies now; caught part 2 on cable recently and it was awful). Of course the technology is mush better and much more realistic.

[windy252]

93. Sometimes I wonder if Hollywood has just

run out of ideas for suspense. I like suspenseful movies, but slashers tend not to be very good, though if I can afford it, I might see one if there's nothing else.

[Matsubara]

25. It's not the gore, it's the cruelty.

Saw, for example, had less actual onscreen gore than many horror films in the 80s.

The difference is, the 80s films went over the top with gore for shock value, often to the point of campy humor (Evil Dead 1 & 2)

But Saw went another direction, with viciously devised traps and puzzles that would torture and eventually horribly kill their victims if they didn't accomplish X task (usually kill a cellmate in one way or another)

Every wince of agony on the face, every moan of terror is lovingly shown so that we can REALLY take in just how terrified and helpless this person is.

I hate these films and what they represent.

By the way - Tarantino, who produced Hostel, has been making horrible violent crap since the mid-90s. I kept telling people that no matter how many clever little jokes and retro-fashion dance scenes there are, at the end, his films are just smart-ass torture flicks. I hated his movies and his mentality and I hate it even more now.

And inevitably some jerk will scream "No Censorship!"

But dammit, this shouldn't have to be censored, because there should be no market for it, and no decent producer should fund it.

[Iris]

45. I agree with you.

As I mentioned further up the thread, I grew up watching Friday the 13th movies and they WERE campy. These movies are much more disturbing and never seem to have any tension release in them at all.

[momster]

63. Agree on Tarantino

He is, of course, free to make whatever movies he chooses. I'm free to refuse to see or support *anything* that has his name on it. Fortunately, Grindhouse did not do well at the box-office. Here's hoping his 'star' is fading.

Horrid thought...maybe it just wasn't vile enough for tastes depraved by horror/slasher movies?

[MotorCityMan]

92. Good point.

You make a good point that it is the cruelty, not the gore.

I was in high school 25 years ago, and I had a good friend who I went and saw EVERY horror movie that came out. Most of them were bad; some were good (always liked the Howling).

NONE of them compare to what is being released today.

And I agree with your assesment of Tarentino. Resevoior Dogs' turned my stomach; Pulp Fiction I never really understood what was the big deal. Other movies have made better use out of showing the movie out of sequence (Memento, 21 Grams).

[hatrack]

26. They're not even "horror" movies anymore . . .

They're "people-being-tortured-to-death" movies.

And they're fucking disgusting.

[AngryAmish]

31. What do you think of the Rob Zombie movies?

House of 1000 Corpses and The Devil's Reject's.

My opinion: House - flawed masterpiece
Reject's - true masterpiece

[LBJDemocrat]

74. Masterpiece?

The Devil's Rejects is probably even more socially destructive than the Saw or Hostel series because it clearly portrays the villains, who mercilessly abuse women and execute men, as "cool."

[EOTE]

90. I liked both...

I don't know if I'd call either of them masterpieces, but I did think the Devil's Rejects was one of the best horror films I'd seen in a long time (more recently, 28 Weeks Later holds that honor). Even though I thought The Devil's Rejects was the better of the two films, House of 1000 Corpses was a lot scarier to me. In fact, it was one of the very few movies that truly scared me. I guess I have become desensitized to violence, as it's a rarity for a movie to actually scare me, but that one really did. Perhaps it was the more limited and intimate setting of Corpses compared to Rejects that made it scary to me. Perhaps it was the parts of me that I recognized in the doomed protagonists that did it. Perhaps it was the fact that I first saw the flick late at night in a completely empty theater while baked out of my gord that did it. I may never know.

[MetaTrope]

17. After decades of watching women get stalked by serial killers in movies

this is clearly the next step.

[sendero]

20. I'm generally a fan..

... of "intensity", be it in film, especially music, all of the arts. Nothing bores me like the insipid.

That said, I have never watched one single slasher movie, nor will I ever. There is a line, and to me, if you enjoy watching stuff like Hostel, there is somethign wrong with you and I'm not interested in joining your in your malady.

[Hawaii Hiker]

21. I don't want censorship, but more importantly

violent movies should not be a scapegoat for real violent events....When maniacs like the VA Tech shooter go on a rampage, they are TOO far gone already & needed intervention long ago; seeing "The Matrix", or "Hostel", or "Texas Chainsaw Massacare", etc. etc. doesn't cause someone all of a sudden to act out violently...

I totally understand some people absolutely hate the kinds of movies such as the ones I listed above, fine, don't go see them....But movies can't be all Shrek, Pirates of the Cariabbean; only G & PG entertainment...And I don't think there's anything wrong w/a person who sees a violent movie....Just as I don't think there's anything wrong w/a football fan who paints his body in his favorite teams colors & proceeds to stand up & cheer when the opposing team's QB gets driven into the ground....The violence in sports is real, in Hollywood it is fake....

[Philosoraptor]

22. Fake violence doesn't cause real violence, it never did.

And I never said it did. Horror movies are going for the gross out, and torture is the new standard. I don't care for the trend is all.

[derby378]

27. It's cyclic in a way...

We, as a nation, escape to fantasy and horror flicks at regular intervals, especially when the real world is becoming too much to bear. Happened during the Vietnam period and the early stages of the Cold War, too. The only difference between the Hostel movies and the old Hammer torture flicks is that the SFX are bloodier and more spohisticated.

[eggman67]

40. Hammer Torture flicks?

What torture flicks did Hammer make?

[triguy46]

28. Torture has the implicit support of the GOP...

In their first 'debate' they were given the oh so scary, made for tv movie scenario: dirty bomb, people captured, you have only twenty minutes scenario. they fell all over themselves agreeing that torture rules! torture works! Its justified!!!!

The result is that a growing number believe such strained logic, an issue that ethicists will argue academically, but in reality is not reality, just TV.

[jpgray]

29. You're imagining things--horror movies continually need to top each other in gore

It's what horror movies are for. At any rate, enjoying something expressed in art and enjoying the actual behavior isn't at all connected. My love for Goya doesn't mean I want to grow a long beard and eat my hypothetical kids.

[Philosoraptor]

30. Christ on the cross.

Torture is in us, we'd secretly all like to torture our perceived enemies I guess.

But would you be concerned if your 12 year old son saw Saw?

[jpgray]

32. I don't have children, and I haven't seen Saw, but I watched "Dawn of the Dead" when I was 9

I loved it! Having seen a few modern horror movies like Saw (the Descent, the remade Dawn of the Dead, 28 Days Later) I'd have to say it depends on the child--I wouldn't want to deliberately show a child anything he or she would find deeply upsetting. The original Dawn of the Dead was incredibly more graphic than some of the other movies you're mentioning, though the violence is somewhat cartoony (Savini's war experiences aside). Also, some of the most disturbing scenes in film are bloodless, such as the Russian Roulette scenes in Deer Hunter--I don't remember ever wanting to cover my eyes/ears during any movie, but those scenes came awfully close. In drama, you have stuff like Gloucester's eyes being gouged out in King Lear, etc. Those two and Goya's painting of Saturn are far more disturbing than anything I've seen from schlocky horror.

But in general, shocking film or art is only remotely tied to similar behaviors in life--one's appreciation or production of one doesn't necessarily connect on the other. It can, but I'd need more proof than the two being similar.

[Philosoraptor]

33. I enjoyed 'Pulp Fiction', but have no desire to see 'Hostel II'.

The Wizard of Oz scared the shit out of me when I was five, Frankenstein when I was 7, and I gave up when the chainsaw massacre showed up.

First such film I ever saw was 'Last House on the Left', and after 20 minutes, I left.

[jpgray]

36. Last House on the Left is supposed to be uniquely horrible

Essentially because it isn't as escapist or cartoonish as other horror films--from what I've heard (haven't seen it) it's shot with an almost obscene sense of reality. To me that's wholly apart from the sort of "sadistic genius" serial killer movies or zombie movies or what have you--most of those have ridiculous horror movie plot holes, a sense of unreality, etc. But still I would argue that it's a valid tool for a filmmaker. I forgot to mention "Audition," which I have seen. That may be more in line with the captive torture stuff you're talking about, and I honestly didn't think twice about any of the bad scenes, though they were incredibly gruesome, and enjoyed the movie very much.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

103. That movie is seared in my memory. I didn't realize, until your post, that it was

due to its documentary-like approach to the subject matter.

And, it's one movie I'd like to erase from my memory. It was certainly the first time I grasped the concept of gratuitous violence.

MKJ

[Iris]

47. And at this point, the 12 year old would be just entering where horror has been "topped off"

What I mean is, he didn't start off watching a mannequin's head flop down the stairs in "Hush! Hush! Sweet, Charlotte" and work up to Hostel II.

[jpgray]

50. But there are horrible scenes in art dating back thousands of years

I don't get the perception that this is something new. I mean, it goes back even further than Medea's horrifying revenge on Creon and his daughter as described by Euripides.

[Iris]

57. well, yes, but I'm saying the 12 year old does not have collective memory.

Certainly adults have the right and the capacity to decided what they want to read, look at, watch, etc., but the question was whether someone would let his 12 yr. old watch this stuff, which, admittedly, is a different topic all together. (I don't believe in using censorship as way to protect children, but the free access we have to all sorts of information and media makes a discussion about when and where children should have access is significant.)

[jpgray]

58. How many 12 year olds go to see Saw or similar movies in the theater?

I know when Night of the Living Dead came out (and Dawn of the Dead alter) there was a huge crowd of preteens that went to the midnight showings. Isn't it like music albums? Just down to parental control? (obviously this includes the internet, etc.)

[Iris]

61. yes. It does go down to parental control.

Unfortunately, I don't know how much control most parents have, but, ultimately, it's none of my business, which goes even more so when it comes to what adults want to watch. And, again, affirms my belief that "protecting the children" is not grounds for censorship!

[jpgray]

64. Speaking as a once twelve year old male, I'd have loved to see those horrible films

But I grew out of getting that sort of thrill from shocking gore alone long ago. But I totally agree with you--it has to start with the parents, and a twelve year old seeing the film may not be for the best.

[Iris]

86. ha! ha! I would also have loved them as a 12 year old girl! n/t

[Mojorabbit]

102. I saw a clockwork orange

using a fake ID when I was 13 and it affected me badly emotionally. Last house on the left did the same.I was to young and immature at the time to see those movies. I to this day hate slasher movies and will not watch them. There is a difference when it is set in a fantasy setting or realistic setting for me if that makes any sense.
I think I am just too sensitive in a way for the genre.

but... I love zombie and vampire movies with gore and good horror flicks and adore the old scary movies in black and
white.

[raccoon]

34. Movies suck these days, and they have for several years.

I used to go to the movies a lot. I rarely do these days. If I do, I wouldn't go to anything rated stronger than a PG-13.

Too much gore, no plots, too much bathroom humor.

There was a scene in the POS movie NURSE BETTY where this man was scalped. Bothered the hell out of me.

You couldn't PAY me to see these POS torture movies you've described.

[jpgray]

39. There have been some awe-inspiring films made in the past fifteen years

Paradise Now, Gosford Park, and the Usual Suspects for example all impressed me for different reasons.

[eggman67]

35. No, this type of film has bee around a long time

and some of it's early practitioners such as H. G. Lewis are now considered "auteurs" for some odd reason. I'a a horror aficianado, and this is the one branch of the genre I just could never get. I'll take an old Hammer flick with an actual plot any day. I do agree that Jason & Freddy have killed the genre, though. I also agree with whoever it was that made the distinction between realistic gore and over the top camp-humor gore(Evil Dead, Re-Animator, Dead Alive etc.). no real use for the former, love the latter.

Also, I would like to point out that the Japanese make us look like relative pikers in this area. Check out the "Guinea Pig" series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Pig_%28movies%29

Ironically the scariest movie I've ever seen has no gore or physical violence at all. "The Innocents" based on Henry James "The Turn of the Screw"

[jpgray]

37. Great post. I agree about the scariest films not giving free reign to shown violence

To me the greatest scares in all stock horror movies are the buildup--the actual killings and gore have lost what small tension they had with repetition and an obsessive sense of oneupmanship that nukes any suspension of disbelief.

[MetaTrope]

41. I've been a longtime movie geek myself

And horror was probably my first genre love. But that's something I would hesitate to say these days. I've long been tempted to go to one of the local horror and fantasy movie conventions, yet when the opportunity came up...I thought, is this going to be about CAT PEOPLE, THE HOWLING, THE THING, and RE-ANIMATOR? Or SAW, HOSTEL, and THE DEVIL'S REJECTS? And suddenly, my interest in attending evaporated.

[jpgray]

44. Aw, the Thing was great! But I also love Carnival of Souls and the original Haunting

And of course the original Thing from Another World was very neat.

[Philosoraptor]

46. The Thing is being remade, as is Body Snatchers.

Carpenter's 'Thing' was way wicked, and before CGI, the new snatchers is called 'Invasion' with Nicole Kidman as the heroine.

[jpgray]

48. Waste of time. I don't see how they could better the Thing

No gaps in special effects, no really bad acting--probably they'll throw in a stock romantic subplot and goofy-looking CGI replacing the awe-inspiring special effects... feh. Even in Pan's Labyrinth, which was good enough, the CGI sprites and such took me right out of the movie. The creepy Mr Hand Eyes or whatever looked great, however, and I assume he was realized using prosthetics.

[Greyskye]

104. no kidding!

Carpenter's 'the thing' was a fantastic horror/suspense movie. no need to add in any ubur gore to that!

[eggman67]

51. Aw Christ not again

Weren't they satified with just fucking up The Fog & The Wicker Man? Sheesh!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. I hadn't heard about a "Thing" remake.

I've heard they're doing a big budget adaptation of At The Mountains of Madness, written by none other then Guillermo del Toro, and that's basically the source material for "The Thing."

[eggman67]

49. Actually you should go to one

They cover the gamut, I go to the Chiller Theater expo in New Jersey at least once a year (they have several) I'm planning on October this year.

I met several people there that I admired back in the day Kevin McCarthy, Robert Vaughn, Dee Wallace Stone(still looks great) and many more. The new contingent was represented, of course but I'd say that at least 50-70% of the guest & exhibitors were nostalgia oriented. It covers Sci-Fi as well. I met Mark Goddard & Brent Spiner and got a model of the Seaview from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" It's a great time.

Just research the one you plan to visit, guest list etc. befor buying tix.

[jpgray]

52. Tell Robert Vaughn if you see him again that he had awesome hair in Teenage Caveman

[Philosoraptor]

53. Saw that Corman classic when I was a kid.

Jeez, on Turner Classic Movies the other day they showed that awful 'Creature from the haunted sea' of Corman's, then a Corman Vincent Price pot boiler 'Tower of London', real trash, but entertaining.

[jpgray]

66. The Corman flick dearest to my heart is "It Conquered the World"

:patriot: Some passable acting in that one, and a decent if somewhat commie-bashing script.

[Philosoraptor]

67. & that monster, how HORRIBLE!!!111

[jpgray]

68. It's a carrot gone horribly wrong! Someone fetch the drawn butter!

It was definitely easy MST3K fare. :D But I liked the film anyway.

[eggman67]

59. I'll make a point of it:)

Actually it was kind of funny goin to a horror/sci-fi convention and getting Robert Vaughn to sign my "Magnificent Seven" DVD:)

The really odd one though was waiting in line to meet Brent Spiner. I'm standing there with all these guys dressed in uniforms getting Star Trek stuff signed, and the I finally get up there and aks him to sign my "Out to Sea" DVD. He was relieved to be able to talk about something else he had done. He talked about what a joy it was to work with Lemmon & Matthau. He even joined me in singing a few bars of "Sway"

Onlookers were baffled:)

[jpgray]

62. I kind of want to see his performance as FDR--my library has the show on DVD

If I ever went to a convention, I'd be sure to bring along a Brothers Karamazov DVD for Shatner to sign. :D I was so surprised he didn't take me completely out of the movie, which is fairly good if a bit problematic as an adaptation.

[MetaTrope]

77. Love the obscure

The really odd one though was waiting in line to meet Brent Spiner. I'm standing there with all these guys dressed in uniforms getting Star Trek stuff signed, and the I finally get up there and aks him to sign my "Out to Sea" DVD. He was relieved to be able to talk about something else he had done. He talked about what a joy it was to work with Lemmon & Matthau. He even joined me in singing a few bars of "Sway"

Onlookers were baffled.

Heh, I did the same thing a few months ago at the local anime convention. Everyone was in the audience for voice actress Yuko Minaguchi's panel to hear her talk about her roles in SAILOR MOON and DRAGON BALL...but I brought up her first role, in YAWARA! A FASHIONABLE JUDO GIRL. A much bigger hit in Japan than those two (and deservedly so), but still pending release in the U.S. It was terribly satisfying that from that point on, whenever she talked about her craft or experiences, she invariably referenced YAWARA! as an example. :hippie:

[momster]

65. Brent Spiner is Such A Good Actor

Everything he's been in since Star Trek (and there hasn't been a lot!) he stole right from under the 'big names' -- even the Bombastic Big Noise of Independence Day.

[NYCGirl]

81. Herschell Gordon Lewis is the "Godfather of Gore" — anyone who's seen

"Blood Feast" will never forget it!

[librechik]

54. "I don't recall" n/t

[Philosoraptor]

56. alberto, I should have known.

I know what you did last summer alberto.

[Philosoraptor]

60. We were required to read 'Pit & the Pendulum' & 'Telltale Heart' in highschool.

And don't get me started on the bible, or mel gibson either.

[slj0101]

69. Though it's decades old, horror is a frontier genre.

Horror stories and films constantly test the limits of what the audience may find scary. Films like Phantom of the Opera and Dracula may have been scary for their time, but now they are considered quaint by comparison. Same goes with the slasher genre, which was popular in the 70's and 80's. It became so cliche and tiresome that audienced needed new ways to have their wits scared out of them.

Suspension of disbelief is near extinction in some forms of entertainment. People don't believe in undead slashers and the supernatural anymore. These torture horror films have an appeal because they are quite possible in reality, sad to say.

[jpgray]

71. And yet the progenitors for those torture flicks still exist, though slightly tamer

And yes, mainstream horror needs to constantly top itself. It's why zombies run in 28 Days Later, I'd guess. :D

[go west young man]

70. A lot of these films are remakes of Japanese horror flicks that

feature excessive gore and deeper psychological plots. They are definently having an effect on peoples minds. In Jungian psychology the shadow or darkside of ones nature craves watching this stuff because for us all death is just around the corner. A better educated population is the real worry. Many young people today have no grasp on psychology and don't understand that it's better for them to watch a movie with green grass and beautiful pastural scenery and a plot that is positive than it is to watch a human being being cut into pieces. It's counterproductive in regards to the shadow. The shadow psyche should be understood and kept neatly away according to Jung. In America right now we are just letting ours out of the box. New digital technology is providing more fodder for a country that is desensitized to horror and growing more so everyday.

[slj0101]

72. Exactly.

America is just catching up to trends in foreign horror flicks.

[jpgray]

73. I loved "Audition." But the biggest scare scene for me was a moving canvas bag

:D I didn't find the more explicitly gruesome parts too horrifying. Though they aren't for the squeamish.

[citizen snips]

75. The first Hostel did not show a lot of torture

Half of the movie showed nothing but nudity.

[spoony]

76. Good post, glad I'm not

the only one wondering what sociopathic masturbatory fantasy produces some of this shite: in real life and on screen.

[ComerPerro]

78. Torture has been a recurring theme in horror for hundreds of years

[Philosoraptor]

79. And in religion for thousands of years.

And some people get a sexual charge out of it, let's face it.

[ComerPerro]

80. So then, to go back to the OP, I would say that it isn't really anything new

[Philosoraptor]

82. Can't argue that.

[ComerPerro]

83. Had another thought. I think a lot of it has to do with what movies can get away with

technology and standards of taste have changed, and so now things that used to happen off-camera can now be shown on screen in their full glory.

[ceile]

84. Haven't seen Hostel, but SAW is one of my favorite movies.

I own it. I've seen it 3 times. I think it has less to do with torture, than with testing the limits of our notion of self preservation. How far are you willing to go to stay alive? Disfigurement? Amputation? I can see where you're coming from though (I could barely sit through SAW III-it lost it's psychological "torture" and simply went for the gore).

[Philosoraptor]

85. I see, so, you saw 'Saw' ceile, & say it's seriously scary.

I like 3 stooges violence the most.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Talk about violent.

You know how many kids ended up in the emergency room over three stooges? A lot less than because of Hostel.

[eggman67]

88. I haven't seen Hostel either

But I a agree about Saw.I felt it had a plot and raised interesting questions and oddly enough wasn't particularly gory. I didn't see either sequel because I wasn't interested in wherever the were going from there. For me it would have been like making a sequel to "Seven"

[toddaa]

91. Never heard of Miike Takashi or Lucio Fulci, huh?

Neither Saw nor Hostel can beat Fulci's exquisite take on all the ways an eye can be traumatized or Takashi's cutting a man in half. Ah, good times.

[focusfan]

94. I like regular porn with lots of kinky sex,no pain or violence

just evryone enjoying themselves,I don`t like any movie with violence.

[firefox_fan]

96. I like gore in movies. But sadism is not my thing...

...

[Hissyspit]

97. Paris' Grand Guignol theatre of horror: 1898-1914

http://www.grandguignol.com/history.htm

[undergroundpanther]

98. Making people desenstized is what's it's about

This is what I wrote about it..
Abusing others is one constant behavior problem that is completely voluntary in all of human life history. Did hunter-gatherers abuse and exploit one another for power, seeking self interest to the detriment of the entire tribe? Probably some tried to, but I think it would have been less common than today because it is hard to survive with the challenges of survival as a ragtag band of people if most of your tribe members are homicidal, drug/alcohol addicted, suicidal, dissociative and mentally ill like most of modern day America is.

How can Americans understand democracy if all they know is reward or punishment?

http://web.pitas.com/page6/upits101102.html

[starroute]

99. Cruelty in art always reflects the state of society

I recall chaperoning a trip to the Philadelphia Art Museum once with a class of 2nd graders. They didn't know fine art -- but they had good honest reactions and I learned a lot from watching them. The Renaissance galleries they pretty well enjoyed. But when we got to the 17th century, and it was all Prometheus getting his liver chewed out or babies being spitted on swords by soldiers, they started looking very distressed and were eager to move on. Apart from the 20th century art (which they found just plain silly), it was the part of the museum they liked least.

I hadn't ever realized before that just how appalling so much Baroque art was, but when I thought about it, it made sense. The 17th century was a vicious, bloody time. Religious wars. Witch-hunts. The 30 Years War that did an Iraq-type number on most of Germany. Nasty, nasty stuff, and it showed in the art.

Great art is usually much more serene than the everyday reality that produces it -- it offers an escape into a more perfect and idealized world. Renaissance art was like that. Even in the 17th century, Dutch art was like that. But the art of the rest of Europe was a living nightmare -- and when even the art turns nightmarish, you know the reality has to be far, far worse.

We can admit to ourselves now how bad the 17th century was, because it's a long time ago. But we don't normally admit what a horrorshow our own daily headlines have become. How beset we are by images of torture and death and environmental devastation. So like children who play at reenacting traumatic events in order to take the fear away, we compulsively replicate our own traumas in the form of "play" on film, in hopes of mastering our fears without quite having to confront them directly.

Rather than worrying about the films of our era, we should be worrying about the reality that produces them.

[Mabus]

100. It's a lot more complicated than that

I'm not ready to point to any one factor as being the reason that this genre is so popular. At the heart of it is sex and violence always sell. But actually I think there's a whole range of reasons.

For one thing, Americans don't seem to want to use their imaginations anymore. They want things spelled out or displayed. Remember in old horror films when the audience relied on the actors' expressions to get an idea of how horrible a scene was? Now, the film makers show what they imagine a horrific scene would look like and there's no reason to use my imagination to picture it.

Special effects are a lot better these days and the film makers use them - a lot. Again to the detriment of the audience.

Films also have more to compete with these days. There are more media to choose from for entertainment than ever before. Films need to have a hook or a catch to get people in. With the horror genre it is more explicit gore.

They are also aiming for a specific audience. I'd guess the 15 - 24 male demographic. The same demo that spends a lot of money on video games with violence and gore but won't enlist because they prefer their blood fake.

There are probably a whole host of other reasons for the increased gore that I haven't even considered.

Seeing someone tortured, even to death, for hours is something many cultures have engaged in. Torture has been used to illicit confessions and for amusement. Our own legal system's predecessor used ordeals to determine if people were guilty or innocent. The Romans had their collisieums.

[Evoman]

101. I think those movies are the ONLY thing left that IS scary.

I myself don't like them....they make me feel bad. I've seen both Saw and Hostel, and I'm not going to run out and watch the sequels. But if I wanted to be scared, they are what I would go for.

Torture is scary. Being put in a situation where you could be tortured (i.e. on vacation) is scary. Ghosts, vampires, supernatural psychos....NOT scary. That shit isn't real. There is no such thing as ghosts. Why would those movies scare you at all?

Torture flicks are deep down, gut-churningly scary because they ARE plausible.

I myself enjoy zombie movies. Love em. Can't get enough of them. Old ones, new ones. Video games with zombies. But I don't find them scary at all.

[Forkboy]

105. I think they are reflecting our subconscious fears prevalent in the news right now.

At it's heart horror lets us confront our fears in the relative safety of home or a theater.I think the whole torture thing is deep in our subconscious right now due to things like the war,and Abu Ghraib specifically,and I think movies are reflecting that subconscious fear that we all have of torture.Monsters aren't very scary when real life is that horrible,and it's why characters like Freddy or Jason seem almost quaint now.Real life is the scariest shit out there,and we're seeing films that reflect those real life terrors.

I don't find it to be a coincidence that movies have gotten more violent as the war has gone on and on.There were very few movies like this during the nineties (at least here in America) because things were relatively peaceful.Now,the fear is everywhere.No one knows if they wont be picked up in the middle of the night and taken to a camp,never to be heard from again.These movies both play into that fear,and play off of that fear.

I'm not trying to attach any deep meaning to these movies,but I do think that the subconscious is more at play then we realize in such films.

[gravity]

106. It's all about shock value

It's getting harder and harder to scare people nowadays with horror movies, so they now are using torture to get the similar emotional effects.

It doesn't make torture more appalling, just like older horror movies never made being chased by a dude with a chainsaw appalling.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

107. Pick up...

"Danse Macbre" by Stephen King and you will find out. It is a non-fiction book that looks at exactly what you are asking. A very good read.

[Philosoraptor]

108. I actually read that many years ago.

Pretty good read too if I remember.

[DS1]

109. A lack of originality leads to talentless crap

that's my take on it