My argument to defenders of U.S. health care system

[CTyankee]

I watched GMA this morning and saw Michael Moore being interviewed by a very hostile interviewer (Cuomo? who?)because Moore accused the press of not doing its job to point out the failures of our health system compared to other industrialized nations. The interviewer used a quote, flashed on the screen, that said on average it took 18 weeks to get a dr.s appointment in a single payer system. No documentation whatsoever.

But Moore missed a great opportunity to then ask:

"OK, if countries with universal health care don't like their system, why aren't they badgering their government officials to replace it with our U.S. system? If their tax burden is too high because of their single payer system, why aren't we seeing them trying to get into the US in droves? When do you ever hear of a mass exodus of Swedes, are their huge numbers of French or Italians or Danes or Belgians banging down our doors to get our system?"

Nobody I have used that argument with has anything to say in response. Try it yourself and see!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. I'll be happy to try it myself.

As soon as I find anybody who defends the U.S. health care system.

[pepperbear]

2. try FR. you'll find plenty who worry about the big bad socialism monster n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. I don't consider those people.

Just a bug in the internets. Random word generators.

[CTyankee]

4. That's why I was so amazed at what Cuomo was saying.

He was parroting arguments I've only heard from rock ribbed repubs or some confused people who hear about the "long delays" and apply it to their kid's latest appointment for an MRI of his knee due to a soccer injury.

But you are right. More people have caught on in the past few years as so many more go uninsured and they are frightened that it could happen to them.

[aikoaiko]

5. Couldn't the same argument be used to defend the US system....

There was a brief blip with Bill and Hillary, and now some noise from MM, but otherwise access to health has been low on the agenda in the US and you don't see droves emigrating to UK or CAN for health.

BTW -- I'm for a single payer system.

[sinkingfeeling]

8. No, I've read that Americans are traveling to India and eastern Europe for

treatment and we sure like buying our drugs in Canada!! Of course, you have to have money to do it!

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/IndustryInfo/story?id=2320839&page=1

A Cut Below: Americans Look Abroad for Health Care
As U.S. Health Care Costs Rise, More Americans Head Abroad for Treatment

[CTyankee]

11. I wouldn't expect them to, if they have good health insurance

I have excellent coverage (for now)for instance through my husband's employer (he's a union member and they fought hard for good insurance). If I didn't know the facts about our health care system or not as politically active as I am, I probably wouldn't care.

Actaully, I have heard of people with Sicilian grandparents try to use a loophole in Italian law to enable them to qualify as Italian citizens so they can emigrate to live there. But I think you really have to fight barriers to emigrate to most European countries, their standard of living is so high. It's not easy.

[eridani]

21. If you live close to the Canadian border, going there for health care is an option

http://www.healthcareforallwa.org/Helpline/tabid/59/Default.aspx

[MNDemNY]

6. But in Canada there is a

3 year wait for antibiotics, and if you need By-pass surgery you must wait in line for months, literally stand in a que. Canadians are dieing by the thousands each day because they cant get insulin. They have to carry their babies for 17 months because of a lack of doctors. This is all TRUE. I know, because I typed it myself.

[mudesi]

10. Put a sarcasm tag just in case (nm)

[kath]

33. That's right, the Canadian system is just terrible - people DIE while they're waiting for care!

The infant mortality is horrendous!
The LAST thing the US should do is go to a system like Canada's. Or the UK. Or France. Or Norway. Or Sweden. Or The Netherlands. OR...

No eeeeevul Socialism for us!! Nosiree.

[Madspirit]

16. RW CRAP...Oh Wait...you're joking...

None of what you are saying is true or not according to my many MANY Canadian friends and the MANY Canadians here.

Oh wait, I just finished reading you post. :rofl: You are being sarcastic. Very good. Carry on.
Lee

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Somebody should ask my 88 yr. old mother. She's on Medicare and has one of those HMO-type

plans. She is going blind. In less than a year, the 'provider' has changed her retina specialists 4 times. Her macular degeneration disease requires injections into the eye every 4 to 6 weeks. The last one had scheduled her appoint for this week and then he's out and a new one has been hired by the provider to only have office hours 1 DAY a week (he has a private practice as well). So, she probably won't be getting another injection anytime in the next 3 months!

Edited to correct

[mudesi]

9. 18 weeks to get a doctor's appointment?

I had to wait about half an hour the last time I went for my checkup here in Canada. What a crock.

[CTyankee]

12. Thank, I was hoping a Canadian would speak up!

I have never encountered a Canadian who was dissatisfied enough with Canadian health care to move here (for tha purpose alone). Richer Canadians might come here for some famous surgeon costing a fortune, but they aren't what we're concerned about anyway.

[snagglepuss]

27. Another Canuck speaking up. Our system is the best and let no one

tell you otherwise. One of many good arguments is the lower cost. According to a Harvard/Public Citizen Report A (U.S.)National Health Insurance would save $286 BILLION on administration in 2003.

"Administrative Costs in Market-Driven U.S. Health Care System Far Higher Than in Canada's Single-Payer System...

Bureaucracy in the health care system accounts for about a third of total U.S. health care spending a sum so great that if the United states were to have a national health insurance program, the administrative savings alone would be enough to provide health care coverage for all the uninsured in this country, according to two new studies.

The studies illustrate the failure of the private, fragmented and business-oriented U.S. health care system to control administrative costs, as compared to Canada's single-payer system.

The second study provides a state-by-state breakdown of savings each state could achieve if the United States adopted a national health insurance program.

Hundreds of billions are squandered each year on health care bureaucracy, more than enough to cover all of the uninsured, pay for full drug coverage for seniors, and upgrade coverage for the tens of millions who are under-insured,it said Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Program and lead author of the studies. Americans spend almost twice as much per capita on health care as Canadians, who have universal coverage and live two years longer. The administrative savings of national health insurance make universal coverage affordable.
New England Journal of Medicine Study Shows U.S. Health Care Paperwork
Cost $294.3 Billion in 1999, Far More Than in Canada

The first study, which is to be published Thursday in The New England Journal of Medicine, finds that health care bureaucracy cost U.S. residents $294.3 billion in 1999. The $1,059 per capita spent on health care administration was more than three times the $307 per capita in paperwork costs under Canadas national health insurance system. Cutting U.S. health bureaucracy costs to the Canadian level would have saved $209 billion in 1999, researchers found.

The study, the most comprehensive analysis to date of health administration spending, was conducted by researchers at Harvard Medical School and the Canadian Institute for Health Information, Canada's quasi-official health statistics agency."




http://www.pnhp.org/news/2003/august/administrative_costs.php

[laundry_queen]

14. Crock is right.

I've nearly always been able to get into my doctor's the same day I call and I rarely wait more than 30 min in the waiting room.

[Madspirit]

17. I Think She Was Joking

Did you read her whole post...carrying a baby for 17 months, etc. I think she was joking.
Lee

[snagglepuss]

26. 18 weeks came from the original post .

"I watched GMA this morning and saw Michael Moore being interviewed by a very hostile interviewer (Cuomo? who?)because Moore accused the press of not doing its job to point out the failures of our health system compared to other industrialized nations. The interviewer used a quote, flashed on the screen, that said on average it took 18 weeks to get a dr.s appointment in a single payer system. No documentation whatsoever."

[Roon]

23. I went to the ER recently

Aids, shortness of breath, fever, cough,shakes.....they took me in the back immediately and put me on oxygen and an IV...within and hour and a half I was in my room. I was shocked. I was dreading going in and not being able to lay down for a couple of hours.I was there for four days.

[nosillies]

13. There is dissatisfaction, but no one wants to trade.

I hear my Brit friends and relatives moan about the NHS and excessive taxation all the time. The NHS has plenty of problems. And there was one time when I did have to wait quite a while for an appointment when I was living there (but I've waited ages to get appointments here, also.)

However, I don't think any of them would trade their system for ours at all. I'm sure they'd say that as much as they like to bitch about their system, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

[scorpiogirl]

15. That very topic came up in an email from a repub friend today.

She doesn't think 'socialized' (framed as a dirty word of course) medicine would work and that we'd have to pay all the more in taxes. I'm in the process of writing her an email that says I would be happy to pay more taxes if I knew every person could have insurance. It's amazing that people don't see anything wrong with expressing that they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. True republican values as far as I'm concerned and they are repulsive to me. Makes me almost wish they would have an event in their lives that forces them to need social services. Let's see if socialized is a bad word after that.

[jtrockville]

20. Remind her that in our current system, we spend more for less.

If we adopt reforms to bring our health care in-line with developed nations, we'll spend less for more.

[eridani]

22. But you wouldn't have to pay more in taxes

What you pay is what you pay--who gives a rat's posterior whether you call it a "premium" or a "tax"? As Kucinich always says "We are already paying for universal health care--we just aren't getting it."

[CTyankee]

30. Sometimes they just don't see it.

A coworker of mine has divorced the father of her 3 boys and married again. Her ex has no health insurance and extremely high bills for a medical condition (he has to run a benefit annually just to cover the drugs). So he is unable to pay child support for his 3 kids. She is constantly worried about money.

I tried to get her to "connect the dots" that her husband's lack of medical insurance and her poverty were linked. I think I got her to thinking. I hope so...

[Yavin4]

18. A Huge Segment of Americans Don't Want To Think for Themselves

They just hear the word, "socialized", and immediately they're against it. That's why change only happens in America AFTER a major crisis. The reason why national healthcare is back as a major issue is because fewer and fewer employers are even offering healthcare nowadays.

We already have government run healthcare, which we all pay for now. It's called Medicare and it's restricted to the elderly. On everyone's pay stub, there's an deduction for your HMO AND a deduction for Medicare. A single payer plan would merge these two deductions into one and will more than likely be less than the two separate ones now. That's a single payer, national health care plan in a nutshell.

[tbyg52]

19. Don't want to think, and/or don't have enough opportunity

Reading Gore's new book, which, among other things, points out how money controls the message, in 30-second sound bites. Sure, you can dig out the real information, but we really shouldn't have to dig as hard and deep as is currently the case.

[snagglepuss]

24. Canuck here. 18 weeks to get a doctors appointment. Where do

they get that figure?

Parts of Canada are underserved but often its because doctors don't want to live outside urban areas and that is also a problem through out the U.S. Also fewer medical students are opting to go into Family Practice so that creates a problem but if someone can't find a family doctor they can still go into walk in clinics and be seen by a doctor within an hour.

A friend of mine is a Specialist who also teaches at U of T, he has had countless offers from US hospitals but wild horses couldn't get him to work in the US. The big question is why do so many Canadian doctors choose to stay in Canada.

[bemildred]

25. "The big question is why do so many Canadian doctors choose to stay in Canada."

Indeed.

[Vinca]

28. People defend the U.S. system until they go to use it.

They thought they had good insurance until they find out the hip replacement isn't covered because the arthritis was a pre-existing condition or 80% of in-patient care is covered, but the hospital only does the procedure as an out-patient. Not covered. S-o-r-r-r-r-r-y. (P.S. We're increasing your premiums another 10%.)

[CTyankee]

31. Because my husband is employed by the city he belongs to AFSME

which has bargained hard and long to retain our benefits. So we are in the minority and I am grateful. I turned down Medicare Part B temporarily while I was covered by my husband's insurance. Once he retires I'll have to go back to Part B. Right now I get excellent rates on copays in dr.s offices, plus dental and some prescription coverage for LESS than I would pay for Part B.

[sandyd921]

35. Plus they don't think about how the current system

reduces people's job and business options. If your dream is to start a small business or go out on your own, think again. The prohibitive costs of health insurance just for yourself, let alone as a benefit to employees is a real barrier. If you want to change jobs, you're limited to the few that are left that provide generous health insurance benefits. Often times when you start a new job it turns out that the insurance won't cover your pre-existing condition for the first 6 months or year.

[undeterred]

29. the U.S. has a health care "system"?

I'm sorry, but I think its the lack of a "system" that characterizes our health care. What we've got from the patient need point of view, is a chaotic mess.

[Giant Robot]

32. Agreed 100% n/t

[TheFarseer]

34. RWers will tell you

Canadians and others come to the US all the time in order to get surgery they need sooner than they can get in their own country. Is it true? Probably there are a few people, but I hope they brought their wallets - it's not cheap and certainly not a solution for normal people. They never tell you that part.