Dean is making a HUGE mistake - says Florida primary will not count

[Herman Munster]

Great way to piss of millions of democrats in the state and throw away 27 electoral votes. It's not like the democrats had any control in moving the primary to January 29th anyway. Republicans dominate the Florida legislature 2-1 basically.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/06/13/State/Florida_primary_will_.shtml

Because the DNC bars all but a handful of states from scheduling an election earlier than Feb. 5, Florida Democrats until Sunday had seriously considered making Jan. 29 a nonbinding vote and holding their own caucuses later. Instead, there's a faceoff that has Democratic presidential campaigns uncertain about how to proceed. Some Democrats worry that if their candidates don't campaign hard early on Republicans would have a big leg up toward winning Florida's 27 electoral votes.

"This thing could be a total mess unless we find a way out of this, a compromise, " said Sen. Bill Nelson. Compromise at this point looks unlikely, though. The rules, unanimously passed in 2006 by nearly 450 Democratic party activists across the country - including Florida - are clear and leave little or no leeway for Dean to waive them: Any state that violates the schedule set by the DNC loses half its delegates to the national nominating convention and any candidate who campaigns in that state will forfeit all delegates from that state.

By moving to Jan. 29, Dean told a New Hampshire student, Florida Democrats "essentially converted their primary to a straw poll." Translation: National leaders of the "count every vote" party are refusing to count the votes of Florida, where the term "disenfranchised voters" became a rallying cry in 2000. The presidential campaigns have tried to stay on the sidelines, but to date only Dennis Kucinich and Hillary Rodham Clinton have been unambiguous in promising that they will campaign aggressively in Florida no matter what.

[William769]

1. Dean will not go through with this.

With the fiasco we have been having with elections, Dean is smart enough not to let it happen.

[madfloridian]

3. I posted about this in GDP, and yes I think he will go through with it.

They are blaming Dean when they are the ones who broke the rules.

Dean is right on this.

[William769]

8. I'm not blaming Dean

But I think he's smart enough to handle this crisis (yes I think it's a crisis).

[madfloridian]

11. Read my post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3314361&mesg_id=3314361

[William769]

12. Please help me out here.

So if a candidate does not campaign in Florida but receives votes, would that person be eligible for the delegates? or are all delegates voided no matter what? It's late I'm tired, but I am very interested in what you wrote.

[Herman Munster]

15. yes essentially that is the case

So if Clinton Kucinich et al. campaign in Florida.

But Gravel is the only one that does not. Gravel could get half of Florida's delegates by default.

[madfloridian]

2. I disagree. He is following the rules.

Florida is acting like a pouty child.

Dean is right, my state is wrong.

He is the one following the rules, they broke them.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. One could certainly ask one question:

Should Dean let Florida's repuke-controlled legislature dictate terms to the DNC?

[madfloridian]

6. Plus our Dems voted for it 100%....and they blame him. My post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3314361&mesg_id=3314361

I am very angry about this power grab. I think it is being encouraged by certain groups, but I have no proof.

[PassingFair]

5. Yup. From what I can see, FLORIDA DOESN'T CARE.

They just wanna be first.

If they don't care to "count", why should
we care?

[William769]

7. Of course our State is wrong and Dean is right, but

Florida is to big a prize to piss off the voters, I say Dean will use his magnificent brain and find a way out of this mess.

[Patsy Stone]

9. Nancy was here

She said she supported the decision. Would she openly go against Dean?

[madfloridian]

10. Yes.

They all will. Hillary and Kucinich have already said they would campaign here.

Dean really can't just overturn rules like they can. A lot of our Dems here said they have no respect for the DNC anyway. They are mostly DLC here overall. I have suspicions, but Dean has no choice.

If Florida wants to take him down, go for it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3314361&mesg_id=3314361

[Patsy Stone]

23. Dean takes a stand for the rules

by cutting off Florida's delegates. If the DNC chooses to ignore Florida, Florida will vote Republican -- because the middle of Florida doesn't need any coaching for that. The Dems in the cities will not turn out knowing that their vote doesn't count, everyone gets less votes. When we get to the convention, Florida will half as many delegates. And this helps the Dems how? What does Dean gain for his stand? Why wouldn't he want to benefit the party by negotiating between this McAuliffe led group and the Florida lawmakers?

I'm sorry Dean is mad at us, and I'm sorry we decided what we decided, but punishing Florida, and throwing away the Democrats' chance of winning seats, or adding electoral votes, seems a bit severe, and standing on principle is nice, but at what cost?

To be honest, I don't care what Iowa or NH thinks. Why does my life revolve around New Hampshire? Tradition? What.Ever.

[madfloridian]

24. He has no choice. Fire his ass, and give it to Harold Ford like Carville said.

I don't give a damn this year who wins. Things are not going to change.

Dean is being attacked for rules made by the committee and members.

Now that is really fair.

I hope he steps down over this and gives it to Harold, and lets the DLC just run things.

[Patsy Stone]

29. I said nothing about him stepping down

I asked a question: Why won't he try and broker a deal?

[madfloridian]

13. Why do you call it Dean's mistake? Florida is the one who broke the rules.

Dean is not able to choose not to apply the rules.

So why are you calling it his mistake? Please explain. It was the rule committee set by McAuliffe, and the 447 DNC members who voted for it.

It was not Dean's mistake at all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3314361&mesg_id=3314361

[Herman Munster]

14. because

to put party squabbles over maximizing the chances of winning Florida's 27 electoral votes is not showing leadership.

Luckily, most candidates will campaign in Florida anyway and thumb their noses at Dean. It's much too important not to let the republicans dominate the primary election cycle, delegates or no delegates.

The winner will have big momentum heading into Feb 5th anyway.

[madfloridian]

16. There is nothing he can do. He did not cause the "party squabbles"

Hubby has already dropped out locally from the party, and I am about to do so.

Their utter lack of respect for Chairman Dean, who whether you like him or not, really is trying to fix the party....their attitude of superiority to activists.

Perhaps they should just fire him like Carville said and put Harold in....Harold will do as the Clintons say.

[madfloridian]

17. Yes, you are right. They are thumbing their noses at the party.

And at everyone who understands why they are doing it.

I have had it.

[Herman Munster]

18. you know what?

I don't care about the DNC party rules or the hurt feelings of some activists in some states.

I care about winning in November and to piss over millions of Florida voters is an asinine political move and even Nancy Pelosi thinks something should be worked out.

A simple solution is to strip most of Florida's delegates away and allow a token amount to count to the primary winner. Perhaps even 10%.

That would at least validate democracy and not turn the primary into a sham and piss off millions of floridans who we will very well fucking need in November to win the general.

Don't bite off your nose to spite your face.

[madfloridian]

20. I am a Floridian and I am very pissed off .....at Florida Dems.

They are effectively saying to Dean that his chairmanship means nothing. Hillary has made it clear that she will campaign here, and that is that.

She is going to win. The DLC and that type will continue to run things. Why? Because when we as the party activists should stand with the one who is trying to change things....we damn him here at the Dem forum.

I am sick of winning at all costs. Many of us believe this to be a power play against Dean, and our Democrats here are involved in it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3314361&mesg_id=3314361

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

19. Did you know those Dems attacking Dean WANTED those strict party rules?

How about those apples.

But they only want them enforced when it doesn't affect them.

Hypocrisy. Hubby and I can't fight it much here alone anymore. The Democrats here are just plain weird.

[RB TexLa]

21. Of course we can't have anyone take way two of the whitiest states special

place. Everything must be decided before any significant numbers of African-American, hispanic, urban, Southern, or Western votes have any say.

[Hippo_Tron]

27. They're also two of the cheapest states to campaign in

God forbid that candidates are judged on their merits instead of their war chests.

[madfloridian]

22. Let Florida have its way. Give in to this state. Go ahead.

See where it gets you.

I can see how it is going to play out here at DU. I am sad it has to be that way.

[madfloridian]

25. Florida, first, last, always because we are the best and the baddest.

And we always get our way.

This is not going to end well, and I feel sad about it. We had hopes for this party, but Florida's Republican Democrats would rather hurt someone who is playing by the rules than obey any rules themselves.

Remember the slogan "Florida: The Rules are Different Here"

Yes, indeed. They are so different that we can get posters on forums attacking a chairman who is following rules we wanted, stricter party rules. We can turn and twist and make him sound like the bad guy.

We Florida Dems we are just that good.

To anyone in this thread who doesn't realize this is a set-up, do some research.

Florida wins again.

Welcome Harold Ford.

[Boo Boo]

28. They knew the rules. They intentionally broke them. Dean is right. /nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

30. What ever happened to "Count every vote?"

:shrug:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

31. This whole primary process is turning upside down

The old way, starting with "small states", gave the candidates a long time to get known, react to election polls, get their message publicized. Late in the process, the big states come in and "decide", hopefully decided by well-informed voters.

The new way, with "big states" starting early, candidates only have time and money to pour into the big state markets, and voters have little time to learn about the candidates. The primary gets "decided" on day one, and small states can go sit on the sidelines. This will benefit the big-corporation-money.

I'm not a big fan of all this date-shuffling.

[Le Taz Hot]

33. Well, as one from a big state,

(California) I have to disagree with you. By the time the primaries got to us (March), the candidates were already picked. In 2004, we were stuck with Kerry who managed to lose to the worst president in history. If California and New York would have had input, Dean would have been our nominee and Bush would not be in the White House. Iowa is FAR too easily manipulated and their track record for nominating someone who could win sucks.

We have 33 million people here and we've been treated like the party's ATM for far too long. Places like Iowa and New Hampshire do NOT represent a good cross section of America. It's time for more states with more diversity to have a say in the nominee.

[cobalt1999]

36. As a Floridian, I agree with you.

I support the move. Iowa and New Hampshire doesn't work anymore (if ever). All they do is make the big states feel irrelevant. I'd rather Florida go early and build some excitement for a candidate. A little more excitement and involvement would have swayed both the 2000 and 2004 elections in this state, thus the country.

It's a good logical move and Dean needs to work to make it happen and NOT take this nuclear.

[Le Taz Hot]

37. Dean didn't make the rules re: Florida.

The DLC Democrats in that state did and now they're trying to change the rules. No, Florida still hasn't gotten their collective electoral shit together. Until that happens, Florida should be banned from voting altogether.

:hide:

[cobalt1999]

38. The rule is dumb and should be challenged.

The average democrat in this state supports the change and it has wide support.

Yes, the delegates voted for the rule and it was a mistake. I'm glad they are working to change it.

[William769]

39. "Florida should be banned from voting altogether."

How very Democratic of you. :eyes:

[Le Taz Hot]

41. You did see the little

emoticon, did you not? But just in case: I WAS JOKING!

[Zodiak]

32. Well Florida gave us Bush with their corrupt bullshit

So it comes to no surpise to me that the DLC would launch its assault on Dean from there.

Florida having an early primary is a joke...they cannot even get a general election right without caging lists and wonky results....and they want to be FIRST.

In my opinion, the voice of the corrupt and compromised should not be the first voice in a primary.

I agree with Dean.

If we are to write New Hampshire and Iowa out, Florida would not be my first choice for a replacement.

[Le Taz Hot]

34. Agreed.

California should OBVIOUSLY be first. :evilgrin:

[William769]

40. No Florida didn't.

SCOTUS did.

[JNelson6563]

35. It's a game of chicken

So many states are talking about moving their caucuses/primaries up, my own (Michigan) included. Our state party chair, Mark Brewer, addressed this at our last state central meeting. He said if we moved our caucus up half of our national delegates could be turned away at the convention. He was also very certain this would not occur because they wouldn't want to alienate Michigan. DUers may be unaware of this but MI is actually important in the Presidential elections.

Anyhow, ok, Brewer makes good points but, from the standpoint of the DNC and their role of keeping to the official rules, they can't just stand by and let state after state disregard the official plan/rules.

I don't know how this will all turn out but I can't fault Dean for at least trying to maintain some sort of order.

Julie