American DUers, what do you really think of Europe?

[demoleft]

In an article on Climate Change dated 15th March 2007 The Economist described Europe almost as a wannabe model for the world, and Mrs Merkel sort of a teacher trying to use authority on pupils, without any right to do so.

“Unfortunately, the EU often seems more committed to grand statements of intent than to practical steps to achieve their aims”, said the article, explaining that EU had handed out too many polluting permits for the Emissions Trading Scheme. So an easier way was granted to companies to pollute for a longer time and to stay relaxed. Europe, concludes the article, has the “bad habit of missing” its own target. Which is, according to me (European), true.

On M.E. conflicts and Iraq Europe has been divided for a long time. With France, Germany and later Spain on one side, Italy and UK on the other. No common political agenda was expressed nor was Bush’s politics in Iraq conditioned in any way. In the same years Putin did whatever he liked in Chechnya. And again, Europe turned its eyes elsewhere. And now there’s the missile shield announced in our continent and new tensions between Russia and USA, like 30 years ago. Europe in the middle, silent.

On trade and welfare systems perhaps Europe found a better balance than USA. But then a tendency to more financial investments, a growing role of banks and agencies cause less capitals to be invested in creating jobs and social growth. Many companies moved to eastern Europe and Far East countries because taxes and work cost less – but also grants and security for workers are deficient. Let's wait and see.

Women suffer under discrimination. EU stats say even at university and research level they are often put aside by less deserving men. And in politics too – well, in northern Europe and Spain things get better. Angela Merkel is a an exception, like Segolene Royal. But generally speaking men keep for themselves the management of societies in which women are majority.
No fair chances, anyway.

I don’t know. Europe sometimes enjoys accusing USA for anything. And sometimes, it seems, it does it to turn away its sight from the looking-glass.

What do you really think of Europe?

[Eurobabe]

1. After living in Europe for a couple of years, I'd rather be here than in the US

:hi:

[EstimatedProphet]

2. I think I'd dearly love to be there

Permanently, preferably.

[BOSSHOG]

3. I lived in Scotland and England back in the 60's.

Loved the land, loved the people, loved the food, even enjoyed the weather. Just a small snapshot of a part of Europe but I cherish those memories greatly.

[demoleft]

17. "Souls of poets dead and gone...

...What elysium have ya known,
Happy field or mossy cavern,
Choicer than the Mermaid Tavern?" (John Keats)

I think I'll travel Northern England and Scotland soon.
I just know Londoners, which is poor knowledge of that more complex people.

Ciao & thanks

[spoony]

20. I think you'll love it.

I don't know how to completely describe it, but it's like the very ground emits energy and history.

Cheers :)

[ToeBot]

26. "loved the food" - England has some of the finest cooks in the world...

...provided they aren't cooking English cuisine! Some benefits of Empire are less tangible than others.

[BOSSHOG]

28. Fish and Chips sopping in Vinegar and wrapped in newspaper

came to mind. And fancy dining at a hotel in Scotland where the cuisine was always tasty. And the gamekeepers wife down the road made a Scotch Broth to die for.

[Ganja Ninja]

4. I went to Spain and Scotland back in the 70's.

Although I'm sure it's changed a lot I would love to go there and live for a couple of years.
As far as politics goes they don't have the capacity to lead like the US can when it wants to. Kosovo was a good example. The problem there just festered and festered until Clinton stepped in and did something about it. It was their back yard, they should have been able to handle it but it wasn't getting done.

[annabanana]

5. The fact that the EU is several vibrant, resilient cultures under

a single umbrella makes it difficult to equate "Europe" with the US. There is, perhaps, a collective wisdom that's been gained by their having their ground ripped up & bloodied by Centuries of warfare, where we have a couple of attacks and one fratricidal bloodletting only to give us perspective.

The older cultures have longer entrenched traditions of discrimination against women, but well exercised habits when dealing with differing languages and societies.

The fact that they are all smushed together, cheek by jowl there, MORE than explains the desire to sit quietly between two hollering blowhards all hopped up on stockpiled weapons. . .

(imho)

[demoleft]

15. That's it. We Europeans could do so much more...

...that in being unable to make a strong community of Europe and to play a strong peaceful role in world politics - we are partly responsible for the worse that may come.

Thanks for replying!
Ciao

[BurtWorm]

21. The American model has been to equate strength with aggression

and police action. And now violation of the sovereignty of nations whose regimes it wants overthrown. The American model is sexist and anti-feminist to the core of its being, equating the feminine (and allegedly associated concepts like reasonableness, generosity, real democracy, peacefulness) with loathsome weakness.

If Europe or some other alternative to this American model arises, it will have to overcome, buy some clever means, the obstinate obstacle American militarism has put in its path to world leadership.

(But if what I've been reading about the American economy in the past week is true, the US may implode before long and the path to other potential leaders will be open without a struggle.)

[Captain Hilts]

6. I don't place "Europe" under one umbrella of opinion.

The countries are really different.

[KharmaTrain]

7. I Re-Read My Grandparents Letters...

They're nearly 100 years old...between my grandparents, who had just arrived in this country and their parents and other family members in Russia (several would later come over...some never made it farther than Hitler's death camps! These letters speak to the hardships and troubles my grandfather had in getting acclimated in this country, but also a constant reminder as to why he and others left Eastern Europe. His father would describe the latest progrom on new law against the Jews or a myriad of problems...giving a clear picture as to why they left Europe and why my grandfather, my father and now I, are proud Americans...believing in the concept of fairness and opportunity. I doubt there's much of either in my grandfather's small town...now in Belarus.

Right now my money is bullish with Europe...more as a sign of no-confidence in the boooosh regime's economic policies...and I hope to travel throughout the continent, but I refuse to give up on my country...and I can't think of any other country I'd prefer to be in.

European society is still loaded with racism, sexism and xenophobia that gets glossed over...especially by those who attempt to trash the U.S.

[murielm99]

9. Two posters mention the

sexism, racism and xenophobia that still exist there.

I always think of Europeans as more enlightened than us, because they have been through so many wars and religious domination. I guess nothing is perfect.

[KharmaTrain]

10. The World Is A Complex Place

I worked with many ethnic groups in the Chicago area and learned a lot more about Europe here than I had in a classroom. In the 70's few knew the differences between Kosovars and Serbians and Croatians...but it played out at the radio station I worked at.

In many ways, European culture is far more "enlightened" than ours, but also look a little further and you'll see a history of inclusion or discrimination...their tolerance came at a steep price and, as we saw in the Balkans, is not far removed from old histories and hostilities.

Ogle County? As in Rochelle?

Cheers...

:toast:

[murielm99]

12. Yes, as in Rochelle.

But I am west of Rochelle, not far from Lee and Whiteside Counties.

And you are right about Chicago. They still have a wonderful mixture of ethnic groups.

[KharmaTrain]

14. We're NIU Grads Here...

Two generations now...my daughter just finished up in DeKlab last December. I'm in the NW burbs and get out to Stronghold Castle and up and down the Rock River...beautiful country.

Hopefully we can join the Blue districts in Whiteside with the new blue Districts to the East and send Gym Teach Denny into total exile. :rofl:

Thanks for your posts...

[blondeatlast]

11. My husband is Indian and yes, the racism is markedly worse in

some places.

As much as I loved Prague, we were very uncomfortable there. Nothing overt, just hard, cold stares even in the vicinity of the Intercontinental Hotel.

The xenophobia in Dresden was just like a hammer to the head. We were told--in these words exactly--"I don't like you Americans" and this was in a TRAVEL AGENCY! OTOH, Berlin seemed to me one of the most relaxed and content cities I've ever been to.

As I say below, it has it's strong points and so do we. I'd be comfortable there (and my husband's business might send us there to live at some point), but I find the US more relaxed in attitude.

[murielm99]

13. I will have to ask my daughter if she noticed anything.

She was in Germany last summer. I am sure they knew she was an American, but she speaks German, and she looks very Aryan. We have a German last name. She was there as a classical musician. I am sure that was appreciated, too.

Her (former) partner made the trip with her. She is Palestinian-American, and has dark skin. I wonder if there were incidents she did not mention to me.

[blondeatlast]

8. I was there last year on vacate and husband's business.

In many ways Europe is better (transportation being the most obvious), but in many ways I think the US is.

I guess my own opinion is that it's a nice place to visit, and an extended visit (even of several years) would be doable and enjoyable, but I'd still prefer here. OTOH, if things don't improve over here, my mind may change.

I did not like the superior attitude a few (but not all) Europeans had toward me.

[LWolf]

16. I think I'd like to visit.

I think that my focus, when it comes to forming opinions about nations or regions, should be local. While I can learn from studying my neighbors, it's not appropriate, imo, to appoint myself their judge and jury.

[demoleft]

18. All in all...

...you DUers seem to like the place and the people (with some bad experiences in Dresden and Prague...).

What you mostly perceive is: Europe is not able to take action to solve even its own problems. Unable to make a political community.

Some remarks reminded me of Henry James' novel "The Wing Of The Dove" and of its male protagonist, the European Merton Densher.
Densher is unable to act, to make a decision. He's a piece on a chessboard moved by american heiress Milly Theale and European opportunist Kate (who aims at Milly's wealth).

Well, Europe behaves sometimes like Merton: in not doing anything calls itself innocent. But it's not!

Thank you for replying, DUers!

:hi:

[saltpoint]

19. I have enormous respect for the nations of Europe and wish

most of all not to be judged by their citizens by the words and deeds of the current U.S. president.

[JCMach1]

22. I was shocked by the extensive racism there...

[LSK]

23. I have never been there, but would like to visit and could see a possible move there

The thing that stands out to me is their universal healthcare plans. That is very appealing to me. I understand they are very big on quality of life over there and they do a better job of taking care of everyone. I believe they tax their gasoline and that pays for a portion of their social programs. That results in cars that get much better fuel economy and in turn they are contributing much less to global warming than we are. They also have much better public transportation and their cities are much more commuter friendly.

They also take much longer vacations there, doesnt France have a 7 hour work day? They are much more interested in enjoying their life instead of slaving away at work.

After 2 world wars, they have learned that war is not the answer and they are much more in tune with living peacefully together.

Their guns laws make a lot of sense.

They are much more secular over there.

All in all, I think we can learn a lot from the Europe.

[WHAT]

24. mercenaries...isn't that a european import?

Years ago I knew an old Polish man who immigrated to the US at the turn of the century. He thought America was the greatest country because it didn't have mercenaries. That is, one group of people wasn't used by another group of people to carry-out someone else's goals of power and acquisition.

Hand (europe) in glove (USA) is how I perceive the transformation in foreign policy. Europe should not be allowed to put us on to hide its blood stains. Things to import...cooking, architecture, music to be transformed with national and regional twists. But, middle east policy and even rapacious attitudes toward other nations is something I don't want to wear.

[Blue_Tires]

25. good soccer teams!

[kineneb]

27. given the opportunity, I would move there

I am bilingual (English-German) and a medieval/Renaissance musician. There is very little happening in this country any more in my field. I would be happy to move to either Germany or Belgium.