Immigration: Law, justice and mercy

[hedgehog]

We all know that immigration must be controlled and there are laws to do so. We can debate the justice of immigration, whether our concern is for living conditions in this country (especially working conditions) or the situation in other countries and our role in creating those conditions. The one aspect that is rarely considered is mercy or compassion for each individual persons caught in this reality. You may say it is only legal and proper to deport illegal immigrants; but can you look a given person in the eye and tell her that she must leave? What do you tell her about the two kids born here?

Talk all you want to about enforcing the law, but we don't tell heroic stories about slave catchers or border guards. We remember those who chose mercy over the law, whether in pre-Civil War America or WWII Europe. If the law precludes mercy, then how just is the law in the first place?

I and others on this forum have floated the idea that the answer to the Immigration problem isn't more laws, isn't more walls and guards but rather an effort to help people to live a decent life in the countries they were born in. It's not an easy solution or a quick one. I am convinced though, that the way to solve this problem is with generosity, not more laws.

[wildhorses]

1. thank you for this -- i agree.

:patriot:

[Saturday]

2. What about generosity for those whose

wages have been lowered because of illegals? Don't they count? What about the jobs lost or taken from Americans because illegals will work for less money? No compassion for them?

[hedgehog]

3. It's not an either or situation unless we allow it to be so.

It's time to stop setting people at each other's throats and work together for everyone. If we buy into the notion that your gain is my loss, we might as well all become Republicans!

[Saturday]

6. It most certainly is an either or situation.

Illegals will work for less money than we will. I don't have a link to this but.....remember the Hormel plant that was raided? Many illegals lost their jobs after that raid. Well, Hormel went into the nearby town and hired many Blacks to fill those jobs. It seemed the Blacks had no transportation to get to the Hormel plant so Hormel now provides bus service to get them to the plant. The plant is now operational and Americans have the jobs.

[hedgehog]

11. That's what happened in today's USA.

We can do better.

[mema42]

4. agreed

Yes, that is the solution. I do believe we need laws and enforcement, more because otherwise there will always be those willing to take advantage of others who will promote a better life. Look at the civilians that are willing to go to Iraq and work as a civilian for big business which takes advantage of them. They go under the impression they will be taken care of, they will earn a better living etc. and then find it is a lie. The woman and the two kids should be deported but with it there should be a social program there for them. I have no idea how to make that happen and I don't see our government working towards that, since it does not meet the needs of big business for cheap labor.


However, long term the only answer to a illegal immigration, especially from a neighboring country, lies in solving the reasons that make those people choose to go to the other country, and solving those problems.

We do need border guards and we ought to appreciate them more. Much of their actual job is stopping illegal drugs, smuggling weapons and other contraband, and smuggling people that are basically enslaved here. I know at least some of the INS busts up around Chicago had to do with a prostitution ring run by illegal immigrants and the women used were illegal immigrants.

[hedgehog]

5. When I don't like seeing the INS agents, that tells me that something is wrong with the system.

They should be stopping the smuggling of weapons and protecting immigrants, not being forced to act as some sort of secret police ready to wreck someone's life at any time. If we continue to attack a single side of this puzzle, we will end up headed down the wrong path. It's up to us to decide whether we want to live in a place that emphasizes strict law enforcement or a generosity that helps us by helping others.

[AandP]

7. How much is enough

U.S. remittances to Mexico account for 1.5 percent of Mexico?s national income.How much more generous do you suggest we be? That doesn't count the billions of dollars wired back to Mexico from illegals working in the US.

[hedgehog]

10. I suggest that we be as generous as we need to be, and we should be certain that

we are wise in our generosity. Percentages and other numbers don't tell us what we need to be doing. he question is, what are we doing and what are we failing to do to improve life for everyone?. For example, there is an exhibit at the Cooper Union, Design for the Other 90% (http://other.cooperhewitt.org/) about how the appropriate use of technology can make an incredible difference for the world's people. How much money is going into inventions like this, and how much into cup holders that heat and cool?

How much are we willing to give up to ensure real justice? Would you be willing to pay an extra $0.50 a gallon for milk if you knew that the guy milking the cows was making a decnet wage? How much would you pay for apples, for strawberries, for lettuce? Are you willing (if able) to put a little extra money down today to buy Fair Trade items?

Maybe I should have headed this post "Immigration: A Little Humility". The fact is none of us did anything to deserve being born here. In the luck of the draw, we happened to be born into one of the wealthiest societies ever known. That puts a big responsibility on all of us.

[mema42]

20. The poor here too

As long as it helps the poor here too. That isn't what free-trade is doing though. Free trade is making a few rich, richer and moor people poorer.

The second wealthiest man is a Mexican citizen, he isn't far behind Gates as the first wealthiest. Mexico now has a growing number of millionaires. So understand again, it isn't all just about this country. That second richest man, he just gained that this year a couple months ago, at the start of the year he is was the third. That wealth has been mostly gained since NAFTA. It is a world wide problem and we are just started to go the way other countries have been going for a long time. Is it just about this countries policies, or is it a matter of the policies of a few rich that actually make the decisions based upon their power over businesses and governments?

[mema42]

19. they do what they are expected to do

They do what they are expected to do. They don't harass legal immigrants in most cases I hope. They do try to stop those entering the country illegally. There are a variety of reasons that we and most countries do that. Mexico does that if you try to enter the country illegally too, there are penalties, and I believe it is a felony in Mexico.

The people may be sick with a disease that needs to be known, the people may be criminals and are avoiding justice. Even those working here are involved with crime also. Sad but true, it is an easy way for them to avoid the paying for their crime. Go across the border into the U.S. A while ago INS arrested three men that had killed hundreds of people down in one of the Southern countries. They had been hiding here for years under fake identities.

Finally, even the report that suggested open borders, the one that says it is great for business, this free flow of labor ( yes, we are just another commodity to be traded at will) is wonderful, stated that in the case of US/Mexico/Canada, Mexico's economy would either need to go up or the others down before it occurred. Otherwise the economic repercussions could be dire for the people living in those countries. Another words, before you actually open the borders, think about the societies and people involved, and what effect opening the borders really has. Its a nice idea in concept, harder to pull off. Be careful what you wish for.

[TahitiNut]

8. I'm seeing another age-old human habit ... the "locust approach."

We tend to romanticize 'migration' without looking at all sides - both the positives and negatives. It seems to be yet another iteration of the almost timeless conflict between the hunter/gatherer cultures and the totalitarian agriculturalists. Despite the romantic notions of migrant cultures throughout the world over thousands of years of human history, we must acknowledge the fact that an inherent side-effect of such behavior was to inhabit an area until it was so destroyed and polluted with human waste that it was necessary to move on to "greener pastures." In a world where there were orders of magnitude fewer humans and vast 'wild' areas it made sense to merely harvest the abundance of nature and then move on. As populations increased and freedom of movement became more and more inhibited, humanity learned to plant and raise domesticated livestock. Humanity also learned how to limit their destruction and dispose of their waste. The history of the migrants preying upon such people is the stuff of archeology and legend. The notion of "voting with one's feet" is alive and well ... the legacy of the locust.

This is NOT a simplistic model. There is no 'pure good' or 'pure bad' in either sense. Nonetheless, any nation or community that adopts a settled model for its culture and strives to make a permanent home where life is made better for one's descendants based on the social, economic, and political efforts invested in one's community absolutely depends today on some geographic integrity and some consistency between the agreed-upon rules of the community and the actual behavior of the members of that community.

Far too many are overtly dishonest in their rhetoric and clearly regard themselves as either immune to the stresses inflicted or narrowly benefited while their neighbors bear the increased costs and burdens. This fracture is intolerable in any nation or community and totally erodes any foundation for what a sane person would call "self-determination."

[hedgehog]

12. We can decide today to share with the "locusts" or go down in flames

fighting.

[AzDar]

9. To try to equate slave-catchers (slavery was involuntary, was it not?)

with border guards today seeking to stop wholly VOLUNTARY illegal immigration in to the U.S., is beyond the pale.

Yes, I have compassion for those who seek a better life for themselves, but Jaysus H. Christ, what about those who also seek a better life coming to the U.S., and yet bother to follow the law? Or those who have their wages suppressed, or have lost their jobs altogether due to the influx of illegal labor? Where is the compassion for those people?

Charity begins at home, does it not?

[hedgehog]

13. I think you have to understand that for these people it's not a matter of "waiting in line"

or being an illegal; it's a matter of being an illegal or surviving.

Charity begins at home, but setting one group of poor people against another is not the way to go.

[EFerrari]

15. It's so much worse than that and so much more available to know

if one has the interest.

The US government has consistently destabilized progressive governments in Latin America that wouldn't play ball with corporate interests that sought to strip mine Latin America.

So, as far as I can tell, our government plays all kinds of dirty tricks down there to keep their cronies in power -- governments that are all about accumulating wealth for themselves and f#ck the people.

Then, starving people come north for work. Then, those people get scapegoated for breaking the law.

God, how sad is that.


/oops

[mema42]

18. The US government

The US government is a major part of the problem, but its pretty much the whole US government. This is not exclusive to one party, that is why we can't do a thing about it. We fight on party issues instead of fixing anything. The religious right hates liberals, liberals hate them, but there are liberals that agree with the right on somethings, and other things they don't. Yet they attack each other instead of finding a common ground and working on that.

Lets say that the common ground was legalize some illegal immigrants that are here and are a benefit to the society they are in and their families.
Are there common grounds that at least both sides could agree to?
The borders need to be enforced fully.
Employers fined with other penalties and ten year monitoring, loss of future profits, for hiring those not legally entitled to work in this country.
All lawful immigrants from at least some countries are allowed the opportunity to become citizens if they are able to be a good, productive part of this society.
English as a first language? Spanish as a second? schools teach both?
What else?

What pressure could be put on congress and the administration if the people from both sides and the middle agreed on a solution. Can we change it? Can we say we want a better life for those in Mexico too? or other countries that need our help? no strings attached, and stop the silly Cuba embargo?
Because neither side can get anywhere by ourselves, we are being played against each other.

[EFerrari]

14. It's not wholly voluntary if the US government tanks your election

or assassinates your progressive leaders or starts a proxy war that makes your home a living hell.

And that is what the US government has done in Latin America.

All the while they intone about the deficiencies of democracy there, they have done their best to undermine it.

And workers here suffer and workers there suffer. And they set us against each other. What an elegant scam.

[AzDar]

16. It is quite the scam. Certainly the U.S. Government should stay the hell

out of the affairs of other countries...but throwing open the borders is only inviting social and economic chaos for ALL.
It's a tremendous problem with no simple answers, and the last person I want trying to 'fix' it is George W. Bush.
True to form, his proposed 'solution' is good for NO ONE except CorpAmerica; it actually may make things worse, making 'z-visa' holders a permanent underclass not subject to federal wage laws or safety protections.
The fact that Chimpo wants this so DESPERATELY should make us all horribly suspicious....

[EFerrari]

17. I couldn't agree more. n/t